PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
118,974
God of War is just the worst aspect of toxic male gamer culture made videogame, including how 2014's ended up being "we forgive you king".

And now the new series of GoW games is "who cares if he committed genocide, he has a KID now, all is forgiven!"

The fact so many games try to paper over toxic masculinity by burying it in sad/angry dad feels (likely because the people making the games are mostly aging men who don't get to see their kids very often because their jobs make them work long hours) is exhausting.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,725
I've been playing the original God of War games and currently on God of War 3. No surprise that I've been eye-rolling and cringing at a lot of the game's treatment and designs for the women characters but God of War 3 really has pissed me off in just how far it goes and I've just had to stop playing for a bit because of one sequence.

(Content warning, implied sexual abuse) The sequence happens when you reach Poseidon's Chambers and you find a woman begging for help who has a rope attached around her neck and it's implied she is a kidnap victim of Poseidon who then made her into a sex slave. So the game then treats her for comedy as she's scared for her life, objectifies her do to her exposed breast and the camera's focus on those and then finally has Kratos murder her to he can keep a door open. This all happens just before Apthrodite shows up (who like most modern versions remove most of her traits and boil her down to sexy woman who likes sex a lot) for an optional sex mini game.

I've seen several times of the years from press, fans and GOW's creator David Jaffe claim that Kratos (and in some cases GOW as a series) is somehow not misogynistic and I don't understand how you can genuinely say that with stuff like that in the games. Like that sequence in particular kind of makes it crystal clear how the developers making the game thought about women, you can't escape that. I'm not even going into the "It's justified/explained in-universe" justification because that's just an obviously bad argument. And it wasn't just the games, I remember the marketing for these games by Sony and it was sexist as Styx.
Yeah GoW3 is known for its utterly blatant misogyny. That door scene even had a trophy attached to it, and the title was as gross as it gets. ("I didn't do it... but I wish I did!")

And now the new series of GoW games is "who cares if he committed genocide, he has a KID now, all is forgiven!"
I mean, no, that's pretty reductive.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
118,974
I mean, no, that's pretty reductive.

It's reductive, but the game definitely does go out of its way to paper over or avoid even engaging with a lot of the horrible things Kratos did in the past in order to reframe things in a "this is a story about fathers and sons, so the worst thing Kratos ever did was kill Zeus" direction.

It feels like the developers didn't want to actually address the fact that Kratos was, in all classical senses of the word, a full-on villain in the original trilogy. Not a morally questionable antihero who 'did some bad things', but a full-on villain protagonist who was only buoyed by the entire rest of the pantheon being turned just as evil as he was by Pandora's Box.
 

Chumunga64

Member
Jun 22, 2018
14,726
It's reductive, but the game definitely does go out of its way to paper over or avoid even engaging with a lot of the horrible things Kratos did in the past in order to reframe things in a "this is a story about fathers and sons, so the worst thing Kratos ever did was kill Zeus" direction.

It feels like the developers didn't want to actually address the fact that Kratos was, in all classical senses of the word, a full-on villain in the original trilogy. Not a morally questionable antihero who 'did some bad things', but a full-on villain protagonist who was only buoyed by the entire rest of the pantheon being turned just as evil as he was by Pandora's Box.
It does feel like they skipped the most interesting part of turning Kratos into a better person

We just kinda start off with dad Kratos which is jarring
 

apathetic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,007
I think it's also tied to the fact that they just have to keep using the same IP and it's new people making it. I'm always more for letting a story end/move on and create something new but what sells is something already known and established. I can't imagine someone making a new GoW and thinking "yeah I want my main character to be a complete shithead because that is what he always was" so of course you get forgiveness while I personally would have preferred have them just make something new if they weren't going to actually address how terrible he was.

Not a morally questionable antihero who 'did some bad things', but a full-on villain protagonist who was only buoyed by the entire rest of the pantheon being turned just as evil as he was by Pandora's Box.

A thing that bothered me a lot about the original games is they seemed to not even realize that as they were doing it. Like in the games it seemed like they still wanted to frame him as not the villain and that his actions were in some way justifiable in the context of the world.
 

Kyle Cross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,599
The most frustrating thing with GoW 2018, and most likely Ragnarok unless they surprise me, is they had the opportunity to really deconstruct Kratos. They had a unique opportunity to take a character who was truly monstrous and have him really face the psychological toll of the things he has done. Instead they gloss over almost everything he did, and boils it down to just "So yeah, I killed my dad." while pushing the redemption angle with the relationship with his son. The entire scene of him removing his bandages and being all "Now I am free" made me want to shiver up into a corncob. It's not like I expected him to tell his child every horrific thing he did, but the character absolutely should be dealing with more on his mind than his father and his arm scars.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
118,974
The most frustrating thing with GoW 2018, and most likely Ragnarok unless they surprise me, is they had the opportunity to really deconstruct Kratos. They had a unique opportunity to take a character who was truly monstrous and have him really face the psychological toll of the things he has done. Instead they gloss over almost everything he did, and boils it down to just "So yeah, I killed my dad." while pushing the redemption angle with the relationship with his son. The entire scene of him removing his bandages and being all "Now I am free" made me want to shiver up into a corncob. It's not like I expected him to tell his child every horrific thing he did, but the character absolutely should be dealing with more on his mind that his father and his arm scars.

Exactly.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,180
Back in 2005 a lot of what was in God of War was probably just for shock value. One of the main original inspirations was probably 1981 Clash of the Titans in which just about every character was a dick to some extent (the remake sloppily tried to backtrack from that tone). GOW3 just took the whole theme to its logical conclusion, making pretty much every character awful and killing just about everyone (though they don't show what happened to Aphrodite).

GOW 2018 tried to use that history to be, essentially, Unforgiven. That in itself is honestly an interesting idea for a game to explore for a protagonist -- the redemption arc -- but maybe it's still an open question as to whether it can actually be done well. If you haven't watched Unforgiven, I won't spoil it, but the movie makes it clear the protagonist was NOT a good person in his previous life and that he'll never fully escape from that life. In that, it tried to deconstruct the old western, and I wonder if there's a good way to do that for the typical action game protagonist.

Oh, and GOW 2018 kind of ignores the role of motherhood, with the only moms being either dead or villains.
 

Sadnarav

Member
Nov 6, 2019
896
It's reductive, but the game definitely does go out of its way to paper over or avoid even engaging with a lot of the horrible things Kratos did in the past in order to reframe things in a "this is a story about fathers and sons, so the worst thing Kratos ever did was kill Zeus" direction.

It feels like the developers didn't want to actually address the fact that Kratos was, in all classical senses of the word, a full-on villain in the original trilogy. Not a morally questionable antihero who 'did some bad things', but a full-on villain protagonist who was only buoyed by the entire rest of the pantheon being turned just as evil as he was by Pandora's Box.
I really dislike how 2018 give Kratos a pass for destroying all of Greece and with the themes of parenting they don't mention a single time that he had a previous wife and daughter that HE KILLED. The way everything is washed away and he gets redeemed is one of the reasons I don't plan on playing Ragnarok. They had a great chance of doing something really interesting with one of the arguably most horrible video game protagonist and they turned him into Viking Joel with an Axe
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,744
UK
It's why I stayed away from God Of War 2018 for a while and then finally did play it because of all the praise for its storytelling. Mainly was just curious if they did delve into Kratos' history of being a misogynist villain but after like 10 hours I got nothing and just got tired of the combat. So, I won't bother with Ragnarok unless I hear that the writers and narrative designers are honouring the continuity so that the gaps are filled and Kratos is truly regretful for his actions. Or even just at least own his history rather than covering it up because the previous games had their embarassing moments and this new direction wants to be seen as more prestige and serious. His son deserves to know, much like Ellie did at the end of The Last Of Us, and come to their own conclusions. Don't want Kratos to be suddenly a good guy or whatever, but the acknowledgement and work needs to be done if we aren't going with a villain narrative. Maybe I'm too moralist, but his actions can't be just reduced to being an anti-hero or edgy.
 

Kaivan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,390
Yeah, the fact that they swept almost everything from the originals under the rug and made Kratos an horonable dad in the reboot says everything. Big alpha male energy.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,180
Guess I can take this opportunity to post an example of a story that does something very similar to GOW 2018 but gender-reversed (which I don't think I've ever seen in a game).


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsxSZ-sHWyg

While Balsa doesn't have a background in outright villainy like Kratos, the show (and anime, and book) is interesting for having an older female hero mentor a young boy while dealing with her own dark past.
 

Cian

One Winged Slayer
Member
Feb 17, 2018
593
let us live in the blissful ignorance of these last three days where viola is still the daughter of bayo and jeanne before the ugly truth kicks down the door and shoves luka in our face
 

Retromess

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Nov 9, 2017
2,039
I fear a Xenoblade 3 esque ending where we see a photo of Luka happily posing with pregnant Bayonetta and Jeanne cause why the fuck not
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,783
She got housewife'd, didn't she? In the distinctive Toriyama-esque way where a woman being interesting or gay is simply "a phase" before they accept their bland heteronormative wife status.
 

CaptainKashup

Banned
May 10, 2018
8,313
I'll never understand why Bayonetta got a pass in the first place, it's always been extremely clear that she's just all of Kamiya's fetishes and kinks put into one character.
 

Servbot24

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
43,539
Oh, and GOW 2018 kind of ignores the role of motherhood, with the only moms being either dead or villains.
One of the reasons we need more women writers in games. Not just token writers, but the auteur level writers.

I don't expect GOW to be about motherhood, nor do I ask that. But we need AAA games that do cover that type of thing.
 

Atom

Member
Jul 25, 2021
12,134
She got housewife'd, didn't she? In the distinctive Toriyama-esque way where a woman being interesting or gay is simply "a phase" before they accept their bland heteronormative wife status.

Is this with respect to Lightning? I...kinda don't remember anything like that from the XIII trilogy. It ends with her being the messiah and waking up in France? Unless this is about Dragonball Toriyama? Not as familiar.

I'll never understand why Bayonetta got a pass in the first place, it's always been extremely clear that she's just all of Kamiya's fetishes and kinks put into one character.

Because it's possible for people to ascribe meaning to characters independent of authorial intent. The polygon review actually shares a reasonably nuanced perspective on this.

Not saying that as a value judgement or anything, just that people find different meanings in media and I think inevitably that's their prerogative and something you can't stop them from doing.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
118,974
Is this with respect to Lightning? I...kinda don't remember anything like that from the XIII trilogy. It ends with her being the messiah and waking up in France? Unless this is about Dragonball Toriyama? Not as familiar.

"Female character is fun and interesting until they meet a boy, then Housewife Mode(TM)" was definitely Akira Toriyama's thing, not Motomu Toriyama.
 

CaptainKashup

Banned
May 10, 2018
8,313
Because it's possible for people to ascribe meaning to characters independent of authorial intent. The polygon review actually shares a reasonably nuanced perspective on this.

Not saying that as a value judgement or anything, just that people find different meanings in media and I think inevitably that's their prerogative and something you can't stop them from doing.

I guess that's kinda the issue with headcanons in general.
No matter how much we may try to make a character our own, the actual person behind can come in and bring it all down for you at any moment.
(Although, the whole "Her powers making her naked is empowering" always felt extremely flat to me)
 

apathetic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,007
I'll never understand why Bayonetta got a pass in the first place, it's always been extremely clear that she's just all of Kamiya's fetishes and kinks put into one character.

I don't think a direct reading of the character ever did get that pass but there was enough there for people that wanted to put their own reading onto her to find enjoyment/something that appealed to them. That she has her agency helps even if that is also possibly part of the fetishes mentioned.

I never was fully repulsed from Bayonetta like I am that for that other game that has had a few trailers recently that just as much focused on showing off/framing the female character's bodies and I can't really explain why.
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,783
I don't think a direct reading of the character ever did get that pass but there was enough there for people that wanted to put their own reading onto her to find enjoyment/something that appealed to them. That she has her agency helps even if that is also possibly part of the fetishes mentioned.

I never was fully repulsed from Bayonetta like I am that for that other game that has had a few trailers recently that just as much focused on showing off/framing the female character's bodies and I can't really explain why.
Sexualization vs objectification. It's possible for two properties to both be sexualized but have varying degrees of objectification. Bayonetta, despite its obvious faults, still acts like Bayonetta herself is a character first & foremost (albeit one who is designed around sexual preferences). Stellar Blade's characters, by contrast, are less characters than walking sex objects for its (presumed) male audience. The jiggle physics & camera angles make clear that objectification is the goal.

That's also why jiggle physics get such derision whenever it appears in games: since it serves no narrative or gameplay purpose, it can only be seen as a form of objectification.
 

FulcrumTK

Member
Oct 6, 2020
997
These conversations always make me think of this one time I watched a Twitch stream of Bayonetta. The weird scene where Bayonetta saves Luka from some falling debris and they end up landing crotch to crotch happened, and someone in chat piped in with something like "Bayonetta is the first game to straightbait instead of queerbait". Which is... odd to me. I haven't seen everything of the games, but that one scene struck me as more explicit than anything between Bayonetta and Jeanne. Judging by that article, seems like they might've been unambiguously queerbaiting after all.

I have to call out the bullshit of calling the distinctly butch Viola the "safer option" as a protagonist compared to Bayonetta, though. When do we ever see women like Viola as game protagonists? You're really gonna call out a game for its heteronormativity then complain about a woman not meeting your personal standard of femininity?

This Tweet is evergreen:

View: https://twitter.com/soggystyrofoam/status/1475122969365999619?t=k0TvMviZOop9WHL-6dsCGg&s=19
 

Rae

Member
Mar 7, 2019
1,057
FWIW: Arknights is what I kinda wish most mobage are like for female character designs but then again gacha hell is still there.

Penance.jpeg


char_155_tiger_striker%232.png
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
54,085
Sexualization vs objectification. It's possible for two properties to both be sexualized but have varying degrees of objectification. Bayonetta, despite its obvious faults, still acts like Bayonetta herself is a character first & foremost (albeit one who is designed around sexual preferences). Stellar Blade's characters, by contrast, are less characters than walking sex objects for its (presumed) male audience. The jiggle physics & camera angles make clear that objectification is the goal.
Objectification was always the goal for Bayonetta based on Kamiya's statements. And not just for Bayonetta, but like, Jeanne as well. Dude was even thirsty for the mocap actress. It was never about empowerment. It was always just Kamiya putting his fetishes on full display, and directed solely at a male audience. And honestly most of the excuses for "oh she has agency" doesn't apply to the cavalcade of anime characters who have an identical personality to her, identical framing, as well as identical framing so I have no idea why the gaming industry ever entertained the idea that Bayonetta was unique in anyway aside from the absolute dire state when it came to women protagonists. But it's 2022, not 2009. If we can acknowledge that Stellar Blade is blatant hetero fueled fanservice we can do the same for Bayo. All that said, Bayo 3 is way more toned down than the first two games. Like majorly toned down even without the censored mode on. Despite Platinum seemingly being completely unaware as to who Bayo actually appeals to outside of their intended target audience...that's seemingly progress. And Viola is a major goofball which is great cause I absolutely expected a derivative of Vergil or for her to be the typical character action game rival. She genuinely has the most unique personality i've seen in this genre given how so many of the characters are derivatives of Dante. More protagonists like Viola in this genre please. 😩
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,783
Objectification was always the goal for Bayonetta based on Kamiya's statements. And not just for Bayonetta, but like, Jeanne as well. Dude was even thirsty for the mocap actress. It was never about empowerment. It was always just Kamiya putting his fetishes on full display, and directed solely at a male audience. And honestly most of the excuses for "oh she has agency" doesn't apply to the cavalcade of anime characters who have an identical personality to her, identical framing, as well as identical framing so I have no idea why the gaming industry ever entertained the idea that Bayonetta was unique in anyway aside from the absolute dire state when it came to women protagonists. But it's 2022, not 2009. If we can acknowledge that Stellar Blade is blatant hetero fueled fanservice we can do the same for Bayo. All that said, Bayo 3 is way more toned down than the first two games. Like majorly toned down even without the censored mode on. Despite Platinum seemingly being completely unaware as to who Bayo actually appeals to outside of their intended target audience...that's seemingly progress. And Viola is a major goofball which is great cause I absolutely expected a derivative of Vergil or for her to be the typical character action game rival. She genuinely has the most unique personality i've seen in this genre given how so many of the characters are derivatives of Dante. More protagonists like Viola in this genre please. 😩
Oh, I was definitely not arguing that Bayonetta wasn't objective. Rather that it's a varied degrees of objectification between Bayonetta & Stella Blade.

And yeah, Viola has been great so far. But I'm sure the improvement in Bayonetta 3 has more to do with the influence of Nintendo than Kamiya having a revelation of some sort
 

Vonocourt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,678
Bayonetta is like the Sleepaway Camp of video games. It's utter garbage that people found positive value in.

I love Kamiya's work... but yeah. They all show the same throughline.
 
Last edited:

Princess Bubblegum

I'll be the one who puts you in the ground.
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
10,347
A Cavern Shaped Like Home
Has anyone here played Immortality? I haven't fully deciphered the story yet but it's very poignant at times about gender roles and dynamics, especially in the film industry. Though there is a good amount of sexual assault depicted and violence against women. So shit gets heavy and uncomfortable at times.
 

Scrappy-Fan92

Member
Jan 14, 2021
9,094
No, I haven't played Immortality. I didn't even know of its existence until you brought it up, but it sounds like an interesting experience.
 

Sesha

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,955
The "he was always portrayed as a self-loating monster" excuse doesn't work, since the games were always power fantasies aimed at men, first and foremost.

You don't make a DMC clone unless the intent is to make the player character (and the player by extension), cool. The story alone can only do so much thematic lifting when the gameplay serving the opposite end.
 
Last edited:

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,725
Regardless of how you feel about the games, I truly hope we aren't gonna see untagged GoWR spoilers in this thread. I'm still playing it and would hate to un-watch this thread...
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
54,085
Hearing about how Dad of Boy 2 has completely rehabilitated Kratos makes me uncomfortable.
There are a LOT of words said about the second game from people who...didn't actually play it. Like even within the first 10 or so hours Kratos is more critical of himself, his upbringing, and his actions than he was in 2018 because he can actually have conversations with Atreus now that the latter is a teenager. I honestly don't get the takes that Kratos in the last game should've explicitly told a 10 year old explicit specifics of the awful things he's done.
 

Hilbert

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,011
Pacific Northwest!
My son(10) is asking about RPGs lately? Does anyone have any good recommendations for switch that aren't too horny and objectifying? He started playing Ni no Kuni on the xbox, but something on the switch would be good. He's played most of the pokemon games.

How approprate is Harvestella? And sorry if this isn't an appropriate spot to be asking this question.
 

Foot

Member
Mar 10, 2019
11,337
My son(10) is asking about RPGs lately? Does anyone have any good recommendations for switch that aren't too horny and objectifying? He started playing Ni no Kuni on the xbox, but something on the switch would be good. He's played most of the pokemon games.

How approprate is Harvestella? And sorry if this isn't an appropriate spot to be asking this question.
Well, Ni No Kuni 2 is on Switch! Something I appreciate about Level-5 games like that is that they're anime games without the objectification.

There's also Bug Fables. It's about cute bugs, and is like a Paper Mario game.

I don't know about Harvestella, but of course Stardew Valley is there.

Crosscode is a widley loved pixel art action RPG.

And Undertale likely needs no introduction.
 

Paroni

Member
Dec 17, 2020
3,592
My son(10) is asking about RPGs lately? Does anyone have any good recommendations for switch that aren't too horny and objectifying? He started playing Ni no Kuni on the xbox, but something on the switch would be good. He's played most of the pokemon games.

How approprate is Harvestella? And sorry if this isn't an appropriate spot to be asking this question.

Tangledeep is good and on Switch, but its roguelike/mystery dungeon styled gameplay is something that might be a hit or miss for a 10 year old even if played on less challenging settings.
 

Scrappy-Fan92

Member
Jan 14, 2021
9,094
My son(10) is asking about RPGs lately? Does anyone have any good recommendations for switch that aren't too horny and objectifying? He started playing Ni no Kuni on the xbox, but something on the switch would be good. He's played most of the pokemon games.

How approprate is Harvestella? And sorry if this isn't an appropriate spot to be asking this question.
I believe Ring Fit Adventure has RPG elements, though I don't know if your kid wants a fitness game in their role-playing game.
 

Atom

Member
Jul 25, 2021
12,134
My son(10) is asking about RPGs lately? Does anyone have any good recommendations for switch that aren't too horny and objectifying? He started playing Ni no Kuni on the xbox, but something on the switch would be good. He's played most of the pokemon games.

How approprate is Harvestella? And sorry if this isn't an appropriate spot to be asking this question.

Harvestella isn't too bad with the horny objectifying stuff. There's one party member who is quite busty and wears a sort of form-fitting dress, but apart from that its much tamer than a lot of other recent JRPGs.

I think it's an amazing game that is going to end up extremely overlooked, but personally wouldn't recommend it to a 10 year old because the game is extremely text dense, very long, and deals perhaps with some themes that you would rather they not be exposed to at that age: e.g. human trafficking, a lot of loss, failed marriages and broken relationships, feeling like you don't have a home, living with your failure to protect people and taking responsibility for their deaths, genocide, free will, to some extent the hubris of late stage capitalism, a lot of existential shit, the importance of faith and its tensions with organized religion etc.

I'd recommend an NSO sub and paper mario + origami king as maybe more lighthearted RPG adventures, moreso the former rather than the latter.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,180
I just finished Plague Tale 2, and am I alone in having issues with these kinds of action games that try to be subversive with female characters and "grounded" or "emotional" plotlines? They try to eschew the typical gruff dude who shoots 500 people, but games like Last of Us 2, nu-Tomb Raider, and Plague Tale are still about shooting 500 people. They just star women who feel kinda bad about it sometimes, which honestly makes it feel worse because the people they're shooting aren't demons or aliens.

TLOU2 at least frames it as a tragedy, but even that game's execution is controversial. I don't want to spoil Plague Tale 2, but it comes off bad in that game because almost the entire plot amounts to no material gain for anyone involved. I'm actually sitting here wondering if everyone wouldn't have been better off had the protagonist just not done anything. I don't know if it's possible to really subvert action game expectations at that production budget level due to the sales requirement. It's better for those to be adventure games.

Still, why can't one of these AAA games just let a female protagonist have fun killing demons for 20 hours like Doomguy or Master Chief? The closest recent example I can think of is... Bayonetta?