Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

StonedCrows · Dec 25, 2017

Typhon

The part about video games not causing heightened aggression? It's not necessarily true, in fact, the science says the opposite if I'm honest. I don't like to bring this up because the usual Gamer strawman is to use Jack Thompson to shut down every discussion about this.

"You think video games cause violence? Like Jack Thompson???"

Anyway.

The more recent studies in the field have found the following:

* Video games desensitise people to violence. Comparing brain scans of those who play violent games, and those who don't, the people who play less violent games were more emotionally affected and showed greater empathy when showed news reports of violence whereas those who played violent video games showed less.

* Brain scans were used to monitor the areas of the brain relating to violent impulse, video games of a violent nature and non-violent nature were used. In almost all cases, the violent video games did cause a spike in those ares of the brain.

* Games which have humanoid opponents are more likely to cause aggression to actual human beings. In examining the behaviour of those who played a violent game and those who didn't, the ones who did showed more aggressive tendencies and poorer behavioural impulses.

* In those who already are prone to aggressive impulses, the violent nature of video games helped to normalise and amplify those impulses.

In the case of the third above, that explains why people are so hostile in online shooters when they lose.

For example: http://fatuglyorslutty.com

So I'm actually of the opinion that if a person isn't naturally strong in the effective empathy department, video games can indeed cause increased aggression.

incogneato · Dec 25, 2017

I think gratutious violence should be banned in entertainment across the board, honestly. Like the studies you've posted StonedCrows, there's nothing redeeming about sensationalizing and profitting off of extreme violent imagery. Even though The Last of Us 2 gets a lot of things right, the gratuitously violent images on display in the recent trailer is not pleasantly tactful nor tasteful

Deleted member 5535 · Dec 25, 2017

Dragmire said:
Since Atlus and Monolith garbage is still in the air; do you people remember the character art they used to promote their new upcoming projects:

(Yeah the second has essentially a metal bra but the character is miles apart from Pyra. So um yay?)
Does anyone think we will see better representation and designs for the heroines of their upcoming games or in the end they will fall back to their usual pandering ugly crap?

Just saying but the second one isn't confirmed to be a new project and we don't know if they'll use it in this hypothetical game

Twig · Dec 25, 2017

Weltall Zero said:
The saddest part of it all is that Hat22 is one of the most frequent posters in this thread, so they don't even have the "I just stumbled into this thread and didn't read any of it" excuse. I mean, it's fucking there in the OP:

- "Censorship is bad." Yes it is. But criticism isn't censorship. This is a strawman argument.

It becomes harder and harder to assume good faith arguing when someone keeps bringing up false arguments that are literally debunked right in the first post of a thread.

Yeah, and some of them in particular have been down this road before, too. "You don't like my not-quite-porn so clearly you wanna ban it!!! Wahhhh!!!!"

Even if SOME people do want stuff to be banned, it's blatantly obvious MOST people don't.

To be frank, at this point, I think they're doing it intentionally to rile people up, so I don't feel bad about calling it what it is, anymore. When the pattern repeats itself this much...

CannonFodder52 said:
Also, wait does Hatred target minorities, I haven't played it. Was that what you were implying?

IIRC, some of the devs were outed as (at least) associating with white supremacy groups. Don't quote me on that, though. But as far as I know, the game itself is just kill everyone dead. I'm never play it, though.

AlexCampy89 · Dec 25, 2017

Maybe it's a bit off topic, I am not trying to derange the thread, but thinking of
oversexualised character designs, the first thing that comes to my mind (after the anime inspired and MK fighting games and RPGs...) is...

Silent Hill.

Excluding the original game, every sequel has themes of sexual frustration, sexual abuse, sexual insecurity, rape, unwanted/forced pregnancies, etc.

Plus, the enemy design...nurse running half naked, Pyramid Head rapibg mannequins, etc.

But also Mary/Maria in Silent Hill 2.
I suppose that oversexualised character designs are a problem when used just for the sake of having such characters, but they might also come in handy when speaking about psychology in video games.

Other examples are Catherine and Fear Effect. Are those above unacceptable as well? I mean, despite all the sexual stuff, Silent Hill 1, 2 and 3 looked to me like a more "feminine" game experience imo.

incogneato · Dec 25, 2017

AlexCampy89 said:
Maybe it's a bit off topic, I am not trying to derange the thread, but thinking of
oversexualised character designs, the first thing that comes to my mind (after the anime inspired and MK fighting games and RPGs...) is...

Silent Hill.

Excluding the original game, every sequel has themes of sexual frustration, sexual abuse, sexual insecurity, rape, unwanted/forced pregnancies, etc.

Plus, the enemy design...nurse running half naked, Pyramid Head rapibg mannequins, etc.

But also Mary/Maria in Silent Hill 2.
I suppose that oversexualised character designs are a problem when used just for the sake of having such characters, but they might also come in handy when speaking about psychology in video games.

Other examples are Catherine and Fear Effect. Are those above unacceptable as well? I mean, despite all the sexual stuff, Silent Hill 1, 2 and 3 looked to me like a more "feminine" game experience imo.

Silent Hill's sexualization is deliberate. The character designs aren't egregiously sexualized either. Instead, the creatures function as tangible realizations of the player characters' psyche, which is something that the original Silent Hill series explores well. I never interpreted the designs to be anything more than that all things considered, and its refreshing to see the two male leads in the first and second entries as occupy the "helpless protagonist" role in the games when that is something you typically do not see in the horror genre in entertainment overall.

Catherine's sexualized character design is fine as well, she's essentially wearing lingerie and nothing is grossly sexualized. It serves a distinct purpose in the game's storyline and the game itself is overall balanced with non-hypersexualized character designs like Katherine herself.

Deleted member 7130 · Dec 25, 2017

Silent Hill is definitely not in the "sex sells" category

Valkyr1983 · Dec 25, 2017

SaturdayAwe said:
A robot with a human form. Come on you know what I mean.

The point I'm trying to make is how comes people are able to overlook questionable elements when it comes at the expense of women? How many people ignore games/media that sexualize men, but can suddenly find it in themselves to ignore when women are sexualized and just focus on the gameplay?

I'm just remembering that one Final Fantasy game with the hot Male main character. Before the game was even released, there's uproar and his sexiness is toned down. Yet this game is able to make it to the market and get all these awards despite it's sexiness. I dunno. I guess it's just how this world works, right?

Maybe they aren't the same people?

I like objectified female designs in games, but I'm fine with males being sexualized and objectified too

2B is a great design and I love all aspects (self destruct move) but would also be fine when a final fantasy game with a dude dressed all skimpy. I don't even know what you are referring to since FFXV was my first since FF9

Dragmire · Dec 25, 2017

SaturdayAwe said:
I'm so glad I found this thread. I keep seeing NieR: Automata on these "Best of 2017" lists and I just silently remind myself that I can't really take it seriously because of how it sexualizes 2B. Like it seems like everyone else can enjoy the game but me because of this. And it's a bit... creepy imo? Like the casual dehumanization of women can be ignored because the rest of the game is supposedly so good.

I liked Nier:A, but 2B's(and A2)design could of been done better without resorting to having to see her ass anythime she moves. You even see it with official screen shots. It cannot be helped.

There is no male equivalent to 2B's sexualiztion. 9S just gets shorter shorts if you blow him up and Adam and Eve barely count. You see Adam naked, but nothing is framed in any suggestive way during that scene and he has no genitals and they barely game him an ass anyway.

The only way it would be equal is if you can play as a character that looks like this: NSFW

Nemesis162 said:
Just saying but the second one isn't confirmed to be a new project and we don't know if they'll use it in this hypothetical game

Sure, but to be honest I don't really have faith in any of those new projects.

CannonFodder52 · Dec 25, 2017

AlexCampy89 said:
Maybe it's a bit off topic, I am not trying to derange the thread, but thinking of
oversexualised character designs, the first thing that comes to my mind (after the anime inspired and MK fighting games and RPGs...) is...

Silent Hill.

Excluding the original game, every sequel has themes of sexual frustration, sexual abuse, sexual insecurity, rape, unwanted/forced pregnancies, etc.

Plus, the enemy design...nurse running half naked, Pyramid Head rapibg mannequins, etc.

But also Mary/Maria in Silent Hill 2.
I suppose that oversexualised character designs are a problem when used just for the sake of having such characters, but they might also come in handy when speaking about psychology in video games.

Other examples are Catherine and Fear Effect. Are those above unacceptable as well? I mean, despite all the sexual stuff, Silent Hill 1, 2 and 3 looked to me like a more "feminine" game experience imo.

I can't really speak on Fear Effect as I haven't played it, although if I recall the marketing was not very respectable in this light. I'm fairly unconvinced on the game tbh.

Silent Hill may be one of the most defensible examples of sexualised imagery in Japanese games. I mean, It's just my memory of those games, but it didn't feel like they were starting from a base assumption that women must be sexualised and then creating justification for the sexualisation, something that I believe is present in games like Nier, Xenoblade and Bayo. The sexualisation in Silent Hill feels like it was an integral part of the narrative that was there organically.
Heather is also really awesome.

Dragmire said:
There is no male equivalent to 2B's sexualiztion. 9S just gets shorter shorts if you blow him up and Adam and Eve barely count. You see Adam naked, but nothing is framed in any suggestive way during that scene and he has no genitals and they barely game him an ass anyway.

Agreed, the sexualisation between the male and female characters in that game is not on par.
There is also nothing comparable to the trophy for looking up 2B's skirt 10 times (while she tries to prevent the player/camera from harassing her, by kicking the them away)
Edit: A2 is worth noting as well.

Also, thanks for the info on those Hatred devs. Seems pretty believable that some questionable individuals were working on it.

Sun's Resting Place · Dec 25, 2017

Budi said:
Oof, doing Steam discovery queues. I notice myself cringing constantly with these games, I was just greeted by Fate/EXTELLA. This is getting so bad that I'm being very wary of everything with "anime aesthetic" even before seeing any ridiculous, over the top designs. What is even the point of having any clothes with these designs? They cover almost nothing, offer no functionality, just would seem like a hindrance to wear something like that. Why does she dress like this?

It's worth noting that that character is Attila the Hun. "Altera" is the name she prefers to be called, but people in history know her as Attila the Hun.

Dragmire · Dec 25, 2017

CannonFodder52 said:
Agreed, the sexualisation between the male and female characters in that game is not on par.
There is also nothing comparable to the trophy for looking up 2B's skirt 10 times (while she tries to prevent the player/camera from harassing her, by kicking the them away)
Edit: A2 is worth noting as well.

I did mention her, but yeah to be clear: yes A2 and all females of Yorha have the same issues. But It could of been so much worse (or better) for 2B:

Antiwhippy · Dec 25, 2017

Dio Over Heaven said:
It's worth noting that that character is Attila the Hun. "Altera" is the name she prefers to be called, but people in history know her as Attila the Hun.

Wait.

Why is that worth noting to how she looks?

Sun's Resting Place · Dec 25, 2017

Antiwhippy said:
Wait.

Why is that worth noting to how she looks?

Because it's hilarious to me.

Out of all the dumb things in Fate, Attila the Hun being a scantily clad alien with that design discovered by the Huns and used as a Terminator in war efforts is easily one of the dumbest.

Antiwhippy · Dec 25, 2017

Oh right.

Fair enough.

Fate is super egregious with that though. Just look at how they genderswap jack the ripper.

Sun's Resting Place · Dec 25, 2017

Antiwhippy said:
Oh right.

Fair enough.

Fate is super egregious with that though. Just look at how they genderswap jack the ripper.

At least with Jack the Ripper there are actually several of them because no one knew who it really was. The one that everyone seems to know is from fate apocrypha. There's actually a completely different Jack the Ripper in fate strange fake for example.

A.J. · Dec 25, 2017

Dio Over Heaven said:
At least with Jack the Ripper there are actually several of them because no one knew who it really was. The one that everyone seems to know is from fate apocrypha. There's actually a completely different Jack the Ripper in fate strange fake for example.

If only Strange Fake had come out first.

SHØGVN · Dec 25, 2017

Antiwhippy said:
Thing is nier automata does sexualise the men?

I'm even surprised to hear how many female game journalists seem to really like 9s even though he kind of a terrible person. Intentionally.

9S is dressed like a boy scout while 2B wears some maid fetish outfit. 2B has the option to have her skirt blown off but I don't recall 9S having a similar option to show off his buns?

Antiwhippy · Dec 25, 2017

SHØGVN said:
9S is dressed like a boy scout while 2B wears some maid fetish outfit. 2B has the option to have her skirt blown off but I don't recall 9S having a similar option to show off his buns?

You can blow off his pants and run around in his underwear for an achievement, but it's not really equivalent.

Sun's Resting Place · Dec 25, 2017

SHØGVN said:
9S is dressed like a boy scout while 2B wears some maid fetish outfit. 2B has the option to have her skirt blown off but I don't recall 9S having a similar option to show off his buns?

It's worth noting, as well, that the choker and the haircut and shorts kind of set off the alarms for 'heavily sexualized young-ish boy' that really attracts a specific niche of female fan.

Antiwhippy · Dec 25, 2017

Eh, it's more like it invokes K/J-pop idols. :P

https://www.kpopmap.com/6-male-kpop-idols-who-ooze-sexiness-black-chokers/

The thing that 9S reminds me the most of honestly are gothic visual kei/k-pop boy groups.

incogneato · Dec 25, 2017

Antiwhippy said:
Eh, it's more like it invokes K/J-pop idols. :P

https://www.kpopmap.com/6-male-kpop-idols-who-ooze-sexiness-black-chokers/

Notably, those idols are primarily aimed towards the younger female demographics. It's interesting to note that while the sexualization of 2B and 9S are not exactly equal in terms of representation in the gaming industry as a whole, the potential reasonings for sexualizing both come from similar principles. 2B is sexualized for the perceived young male demographic while 9S is sexualized for the perceived young female demographic.

Typhon · Dec 26, 2017

StonedCrows said:
Typhon

The part about video games not causing heightened aggression? It's not necessarily true, in fact, the science says the opposite if I'm honest. I don't like to bring this up because the usual Gamer strawman is to use Jack Thompson to shut down every discussion about this.

"You think video games cause violence? Like Jack Thompson???"

Anyway.

The more recent studies in the field have found the following:

* Video games desensitise people to violence. Comparing brain scans of those who play violent games, and those who don't, the people who play less violent games were more emotionally affected and showed greater empathy when showed news reports of violence whereas those who played violent video games showed less.

* Brain scans were used to monitor the areas of the brain relating to violent impulse, video games of a violent nature and non-violent nature were used. In almost all cases, the violent video games did cause a spike in those ares of the brain.

* Games which have humanoid opponents are more likely to cause aggression to actual human beings. In examining the behaviour of those who played a violent game and those who didn't, the ones who did showed more aggressive tendencies and poorer behavioural impulses.

* In those who already are prone to aggressive impulses, the violent nature of video games helped to normalise and amplify those impulses.

In the case of the third above, that explains why people are so hostile in online shooters when they lose.

For example: http://fatuglyorslutty.com

So I'm actually of the opinion that if a person isn't naturally strong in the effective empathy department, video games can indeed cause increased aggression.

If you mean a spike that lasts no more than few seconds? Yes that has been confirmed. No study has ever confirmed any long terms effects. In any incident that was attributed to video games, the perpetrator was suffering from some underlying cause.

Yeah, people get pissed when they lose. Same with any game, virtual or otherwise. The average soccer riot is proof of that, you don't see governments trying to ban sports.

As you pointed out certain individuals may have psychological issues but that's mental health problem and there are ways to fix that don't involve regulation

incogneato said:
I think gratutious violence should be banned in entertainment across the board, honestly. Like the studies you've posted StonedCrows, there's nothing redeeming about sensationalizing and profitting off of extreme violent imagery. Even though The Last of Us 2 gets a lot of things right, the gratuitously violent images on display in the recent trailer is not pleasantly tactful nor tasteful

What you're suggesting is censorship and I strongly appose that. As I mentioned, some people do need help and regulating games won't fix that.

incogneato · Dec 26, 2017

Typhon said:
What you're suggesting is censorship and I strongly appose that. Maybe some people have violent tendencies and certain games amplify it, but that's a matter of mental health not games.

That's fair, but I treat violence very seriously when it's used in an exploitative and sensationalized manner. Images of beaten women, beheaded children, grimly disfigured servicemembers, etc. that are not given proper respect should not be included in anything because those appropriated images are commonplace in every society on this world. Repurposing those grim images for a monetary purpose comes off as gross, tasteless, and demeaning to the many that have to contend with those very images on a near daily basis.

I apply this on the same level as hypersexualized media as well that serves no greater purpose. Many times, the two are inextricably linked by the two being used in conjunction together.

Typhon · Dec 26, 2017

incogneato said:
That's fair, but I treat violence very seriously when it's used in an exploitative and sensationalized manner. Images of beaten women, beheaded children, grimly disfigured servicemembers, etc. that are not given proper respect should not be included in anything because those appropriated images are commonplace in every society on this world. Repurposing those grim images for a monetary purpose comes off as gross, tasteless, and demeaning to the many that have to contend with those very images on a near daily basis.

I apply this on the same level as hypersexualized media as well that serves no greater purpose. Many times, the two are inextricably linked by the two being used in conjunction together.

Won't argue with that. But I don't thank anything can really be done with getting into things like censorship or regulation, which will never happen. Let me ask you this, would you be in favor of a complete ban on porn?

incogneato · Dec 26, 2017

Typhon said:
Won't argue with that. But I don't thank anything can really be done with getting into things censorship or regulation, which will never happen. Let me ask you this, would you be in favor of a complete ban on porn?

The purpose that pornography serves is titillation and it does not attempt to hide that fact whatsoever. I'm alright with pornography, but pornographic images and hypersexualized media being repurposed into video games that are intended for a larger audience should not have that included unless it directly serves the plot. Examples of these are that I don't take issue with Coming Out On Top or Sengoku Rance because they're literally meant to titillate the audience.

Typhon · Dec 26, 2017

incogneato said:
The purpose that pornography serves is titillation and it does not attempt to hide that fact whatsoever. I'm alright with pornography, but pornographic images and hypersexualized media being repurposed into video games that are intended for a larger audience should not have that included unless it directly serves the plot. Examples of these are that I don't take issue with Coming Out On Top or Sengoku Rance because they're literally meant to titillate the audience.

What do you think rating systems are for? Nobody's "hiding" it, it's right there on the back of the box. A couple of games I was surprised to find sexual scenes in were Wolfenstein The New Order and The Order 1886 but I don't blame the games for that. I blame myself for not reading the back of box. NieR Automata has an M rating and "Partial Nudity" written on the box. You know what you're paying for.

incogneato · Dec 26, 2017

Typhon said:
What do you think rating systems are for? Nobody's "hiding" it, it's right there on the back of the box. A couple of games I was surprised to find sexual scenes in were Wolfenstein The New Order and The Order 1886 but I don't blame the games for that. I blame myself for not reading the back of box. NieR Automata has an M rating and "Partial Nudity" written on the box. You know what you're paying for.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not familiar with the scenes you're describing with Wolfenstein and The Order 1886 because I haven't played either of those and I don't intend to. But, I don't think rating systems tell the entire story with a video game to begin with, it strips the nuance and meaning of all the images and themes that a game tackles in order to package it as age-appropriate for certain demographics.

Like, for example, an M rated game with "partial nudity" written on the back only tells you that is present in the game itself. It does not tell you how the game utilizes partial nudity. I, for one, am not against all sexualization in video games because we are a sexual species and nuanced, tasteful approaches to sexuality is important and welcome. The "partial nudity" denotation does not prepare me for character designs that are hypersexualized for the sake of it, for these character designs that have no integral purpose in the game itself.

Similarly, a game with a denotation of "violence" and an M-rating does not tell me the entire story either. I'm not for removing violence from video games entirely, I'm for the removal of gratuitous violent imagery that is sensationalized for monetary purposes. I've avoided the Mortal Kombat series for this reason because I cannot play a video game series that participates in relishing gratuitous depictions of violence. Violence can be used well enough in a video game, but outright showing torture or relishing in the participatory violence onscreen with unnecessary gruesome imagery leaves a foul taste in my mouth.

Typhon · Dec 26, 2017

incogneato said:
I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not familiar with the scenes you're describing with Wolfenstein and The Order 1886 because I haven't played either of those and I don't intend to. But, I don't think rating systems tell the entire story with a video game to begin with, it strips the nuance and meaning of all the images and themes that a game tackles in order to package it as age-appropriate for certain demographics.

Like, for example, an M rated game with "partial nudity" written on the back only tells you that is present in the game itself. It does not tell you how the game utilizes partial nudity. I, for one, am not against all sexualization in video games because we are a sexual species and nuanced, tasteful approaches to sexuality is important and welcome. The "partial nudity" denotation does not prepare me for character designs that are hypersexualized for the sake of it, for these character designs that have no integral purpose in the game itself.

Similarly, a game with a denotation of "violence" and an M-rating does not tell me the entire story either. I'm not for removing violence from video games entirely, I'm for the removal of gratuitous violent imagery that is sensationalized for monetary purposes. I've avoided the Mortal Kombat series for this reason because I cannot play a video game series that participates in relishing gratuitous depictions of violence. Violence can be used well enough in a video game, but outright showing torture or relishing in the participatory violence onscreen with unnecessary gruesome imagery leaves a foul taste in my mouth.

Then read a review, watch a trailer, or just read the parents guide on the games IMDB page. You are not going to get an entire plot synopsis on the back of a box.

esserius · Dec 26, 2017

It's a false equivalence to state that fan service can be equal. A huge systemic shift in the unequal power balance that creates objectification would first have to dissolve, and nobody knows where that scale tips in the progressive treatment of characters. Male fanservice and female fanservice do not even remotely "balance" each other out (not to mention that encouraging objectification of characters, male or female, is deeply problematic on its own).

psychowave · Dec 26, 2017

Budi said:
I think some people used the latest Last of us trailer as a springboard to start the discussion, or atleast tried.

Yeah, but unfortunately it went horribly :(

incogneato · Dec 26, 2017

Typhon said:
Then read a review, watch a trailer, or just read the parents guide on the games IMDB page. You are not going to get an entire plot synopsis on the back of a box.

Of course you can do that as well to make the decision if you want to buy the game. But, that does not address the specific issue of exploitative, violent imagery and how many feel that it is an inherent part of deeper, darker themes in video games. It Comes At Night is a film that directly deals with paranoia and death, but I don't recall any specific instances of exploitative imagery in the film's runtime.

Typhon · Dec 26, 2017

incogneato said:
Of course you can do that as well to make the decision if you want to buy the game. But, that does not address the specific issue of exploitative, violent imagery and how many feel that it is an inherent part of deeper, darker themes in video games. It Comes At Night is a film that directly deals with paranoia and death, but I don't recall any specific instances of exploitative imagery in the film's runtime.

That's an artistic choice made by the creators. They choose to avoid such imagery because they were making a psychological horror film. There a plenty of horror games out there that go that route.

If you don't like the "deeper, darker" themes in certain games don't play them, everyone has different tastes. Perhaps I'm not fully understanding your position but for me it just seems to come down to "stop liking what I don't, your tastes are wrong".

Antiwhippy · Dec 26, 2017

esserius said:
It's a false equivalence to state that fan service can be equal. A huge systemic shift in the unequal power balance that creates objectification would first have to dissolve, and nobody knows where that scale tips in the progressive treatment of characters. Male fanservice and female fanservice do not even remotely "balance" each other out (not to mention that encouraging objectification of characters, male or female, is deeply problematic on its own).

Yeah, didn't mean to imply that with my posts. Sorry if it turns out that way.

I think in the end, it's all about trying to design a character to a purpose that fits the story and world instead of just for audience pandering isn't it? I think sexualised designs should be alright as long as it serves to tell a good story and a good character. And of course, it depends on how the story explores those themes that is not just for the straight male audience.

PtM · Dec 26, 2017

Nothing to see here, move along.

esserius · Dec 26, 2017

DragonKeeper said:
Y'know, I don't really like clowns. They creep me the fuck out. But I don't have a problem with clown lovers. I don't have a problem with circuses, clown clubs, video games or movies about clowns, clown focused magazines with clown center folds. Those things are clearly marked as products aimed at the clown audience, for clown lovers. If you like yourself some clown action, it's easy to walk into a store and grab your product, and it's easy for me to say hell naw and stay the fuck away from it. But imagine a world...where 80% to 90% or some other way too high a number of media...had clowns in it.

Imagine looking through games at your preferred game retailer and a game figuratively speaks to you – Hey! you like sci-fi?

Yeah I do.

- You like explorin' expansive alien landscapes of eye melting beauty?

You bet!

- You like driving around giantass transforming mechs?

Hell yeah!

- Then this game is pertinent to your interests!

So you get home with your latest purchase and everything seems great then first boss and fucking clown out of no where. Why is this boss a clown?! This game has shit to do with clowns. It's just sorta' there so whatever you send it packing and the game goes back to normal...until you meet the alien species populated entirely by mimes. Why are they mimes? It doesn't make any god damn sense but there they are. Then there's the clown themed costumes and that random clown in a cut scene that ruins the mood and drags you out of the game's immersion cause you can't stop staring at its giant jiggling balloons, and you aren't even into clowns but it's just so fucking distracting!

So fuck this game, play another. So you're blazing a trail of death and destruction through some bald guy shooter, taking out the terroristnazicommies when the elite badguy squad shows up and it's clowns. They come at you juggling their balls and making faces and the camera can't seem to stay out of their back pockets, making sure you get a real good close up of their polka dots and squeaky noses and why the fuck are they clowns? What do they add to this game? Who bought this game for the clowns? There are so many better choices for clown lovers that focus on clowning. Nobody bought this for the off chance of clowns yet here they are.

So fuck that game too but as you continue your search you steadily get this sinking suspicion that you can't escape. Games about clowns aimed at the clown loving audience aren't enough. Clowns are everywhere. Even those games you think are for you still dedicate a chunk of their content to the clown fandom. Doesn't matter if the game isn't really aimed at that audience, that audience might look in and so they must be pandered to. Doesn't matter if the clowns fit the theme, if they're out of place, the clowntaku are the ones that count most so fuck everybody else.

This isn't really about clowns.

Because it seems to need repeating.

psychowave · Dec 26, 2017

esserius said:
It's a false equivalence to state that fan service can be equal. A huge systemic shift in the unequal power balance that creates objectification would first have to dissolve, and nobody knows where that scale tips in the progressive treatment of characters. Male fanservice and female fanservice do not even remotely "balance" each other out (not to mention that encouraging objectification of characters, male or female, is deeply problematic on its own).

Adding to this, I hate when people are like "well, sexualization of female characters is fine because otome games exist!!". As if they're anywhere near the same thing.

Weltall Zero · Dec 26, 2017

PtM said:
It's pretty disingenuous to criticise something, saying how you're tired of it all, but then claim you don't want less of it, because that would be censorship. Come to think of it, it's also reductionist.

I can't believe we're doing the criticism = censorship dance again. This is fucking unbelievable.

At no point did I claim I didn't want less of it, by the way. Just so we're clear on your pathetic attempt at a gotcha.

Budi · Dec 26, 2017

Yeeah, people really have hard time of grasping the meaning of censorship. This is about giving feedback and hoping that devs would listen. Not trying to enforce anything. Nobody is asking for blurs over cameltoes or something, just wishing that the characters would be designed without those to begin with.

Fairy Godmother · Dec 26, 2017

psychowave said:
Adding to this, I hate when people are like "well, sexualization of female characters is fine because otome games exist!!". As if they're anywhere near the same thing.

Not to mention in some of the more popular otome has bland, useless female leads, who play into the damsel roles most of the time, Eg Hakuouki, amnesia, Diabolik lovers, to allow the male characters to shine, but that's another topic.

Valkyr1983 · Dec 26, 2017

Budi said:
Yeeah, people really have hard time of grasping the meaning of censorship. This is about giving feedback and hoping that devs would listen. Not trying to enforce anything. Nobody is asking for blurs over cameltoes or something, just wishing that the characters would be designed without those to begin with.

Isn't the end result kind of the same?

I see a lot of "no one is trying to take away your tiddy games" referring to stuff like Senran kagura and whatnot

But there are plenty of people, myself included that don't play those. I don't play SK because I don't like hack and slash games. And really most "tiddy" games fall into that, visual novel or jrpg dungeon crawler genres, you know whatever is mostly coming out of Japan. Genres that don't require bug budgets from what I can tell

I prefer the kinds of genres you typically see in big budget western stuff like fps games, fighting games, open world 3rd person games, etc. And I like my sexualized designs there. So by saying we want devs to not make their characters sexualized to begin with, that really means the same thing to me as saying go ahead and censor them

Let's all be honest I'm pretty sure most in this topic would prefer if capcom made street fighter 5 without Laura's default costume. Without the cameras focus on Cammy during her special move, without r Mika's butt slap, etc

But that would be the same end result as censorship to me since these are the only games I play that happen to feature sexualization, and I like it

I'm not gonna go play some weird Japanese visual novel for "tiddies" when I want it in the games I am actually interested in playing

Unless I'm misunderstanding what people in this topic mean by "tiddy games"

Budi · Dec 26, 2017

Valkyr1983 said:
Isn't the end result kind of the same?

Listening to feedback isn't the same as having your work censored. People give feedback on many different aspects of games, should we stop this too because it's trying to interfere with the artistic freedom of the creators? Shouldn't you be allowed to give feedback that you like the designs? Are you trying to take non-sexualized characters away? Are you trying to enforce sexism and pandering to adolescent mindset in all of the games?

People are sending a message that they don't need those sexualized designs, or that those design put them off from the game completely. Just like you are saying that it makes you enjoy the games more. Nobody is asking an interference from 3rd parties to actually censor or enforce any rules. Unlike with lootboxes in example, where many want goverments to step in.

In example Steam refusing to sell something may lead to self-censorship on behalf the devs, so they can sell their game there. But still, they can sell the game with other means without anybody demanding any changes. Us on the forums, Twitter and so on, have no such power over the games.

And I'm not 100% sure, but I think nobody has criticized Senran Kagura designs here. Nobody really is trying to take it away or censor it.

duckroll · Dec 26, 2017

Choppasmith said:
But man what a bad position Sakurai and the dev team must be in.

Sakurai won't have anything to do with it. Nintendo doesn't need him anymore. Team Ninja is developing the next Smash and that's why they are putting DoA on ice for now. Can't wait for the meltdowns.

D.A. · Dec 26, 2017

Dragmire said:
I liked Nier:A, but 2B's(and A2)design could of been done better without resorting to having to see her ass anythime she moves. You even see it with official screen shots. It cannot be helped.

There is no male equivalent to 2B's sexualiztion. 9S just gets shorter shorts if you blow him up and Adam and Eve barely count. You see Adam naked, but nothing is framed in any suggestive way during that scene and he has no genitals and they barely game him an ass anyway.

The only way it would be equal is if you can play as a character that looks like this: NSFW

Sure, but to be honest I don't really have faith in any of those new projects.

Dunnoh, perhaps most females prefer personality and abstract traits in service over visual traits? How is porn consumption male vs female audience vs say romance novels male vs female audience?

Sex toy wise it seems sex dolls haven't caught on that much with females, and they're less likely to favor robots than males.

PtM said:
It's pretty disingenuous to criticise something, saying how you're tired of it all, but then claim you don't want less of it, because that would be censorship. Come to think of it, it's also reductionist.

Also, on the other hand, similar applies to the claim that media consumption does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to you.

Edit: StonedCrows to the rescue.

Media influences. But to a point. It isnt going to cause you to want a limbless mustache bearing morbidly obese deformed lady over an attractive athletic woman. No matter what those culture supremacists tell you it ain't happening

Most people violent media isn't going to cause them to go out on a shooting rampage or to violently hit a romantic partner.

Valkyr1983 · Dec 26, 2017

Budi said:
Listening to feedback isn't the same as having your work censored. People give feedback on many different aspects of games, should we stop this too? Shouldn't you be allowed to give feedback that you like the designs? Are you trying to take non-sexualized characters away? Are you trying to enforce sexism and pandering to adolescent mindset in all of the games?

People are sending a message that they don't need those sexualized designs, that they would even enjoy the games more without them. Just like you are saying that it makes you enjoy the games more. Nobody is asking an interference from 3rd parties to actually censor or enforce any rules. Unlike with lootboxes in example, where many want goverments to step in.

And I'm not 100% sure, but I think nobody has criticized Senran Kagura designs here. Nobody really is trying to take it away or censor it.

Did I say anyone in here has criticized Senran kagura? No, more that it seems to be some kind of solution to those who want blatant sexualization in their games

I think the words "no one is asking for censoring just that devs consider not making those types of designs to begin with" is going to be the same as sensoring to some. Either way someone that likes those kind of designs in AAA western games is now not going to have that, assuming they listened to feedback.

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. Just why you get the same kind of responses as you would to censorship

Budi · Dec 26, 2017

Valkyr1983 said:
Did I say anyone in here has criticized Senran kagura? No, more that it seems to be some kind of solution to those who want blatant sexualization in their games

I think the words "no one is asking for censoring just that devs consider not making those types of designs to begin with" is going to be the same as sensoring to some. Either way someone that likes those kind of designs in AAA western games is now not going to have that, assuming they listened to feedback.

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. Just why you get the same kind of responses as you would to censorship

Well people are stupid, what can you do. They don't understand words and concepts. I'm happy to explain why it's not "censorship" when someone thinks so. Devs and publishers usually want feedback, there shouldn't be any gatekeeping by the community what kind of feedback is allowed.

Lawbreakers got ridiculed and criticized by the character dialogue because it seemed edgy, juvenile and try hard with the excessive cursing. They added an option after the release to disable cursing and gore too, just so people could let their kids watch and play. If the parents think they don't want to expose their kids to that kind of stuff, or maybe they didn't personally just like it for reasons I stated. But nobody was shouting "YOU ARE TRYING TO CENSOR MY GAMES!". Though to be fair, their solution was to add an toggle, not remove it completely. But they already did tone down the amount of cursing during the development too based on the feedback. And again, nobody was calling that feedback censorship. But toning down over the top sexualization of characters is met with "CENSORSHIP!!". It's really silly.

Valkyr1983 · Dec 26, 2017

Budi said:
Well people are stupid, what can you do. They don't understand words and concepts. I'm happy to explain why it's not "censorship" when someone thinks so. Devs and publishers usually want feedback, there shouldn't be any gatekeeping by the community what kind of feedback is allowed.

Lawbreakers got ridiculed and criticized by the character dialogue because it seemed edgy with the excessive cursing. They added an option to disable cursing and gore too, just so people could let their kids watch and play too. If the parents think they don't want to expose their kids to that kind of stuff. But nobody was shouting "YOU ARE TRYING TO CENSOR MY GAMES!". Though to be fair, their solution was to add an toggle, not remove it completely. But they already did tone down the amount of cursing during the development too based on the feedback. And again, nobody was calling that feedback censorship. But toning down over the top sexualization of characters is met with "CENSORSHIP!!". It's really silly.

So if you want your AAA games to maintain oversexualization you are not allowed to express that?

I'm not going to use the word censor because I agree with you. I'm just explaining why the extreme reactions. I tend to be more levelheaded about it

I'm not going to throw a fit and stop playing games , but if characters like Cindy, quiet, Cammy and 2B stopped existing AS IS, yeah I'd be really bummed out about it. Enough to vocalize why it's important to me they stay

Budi · Dec 26, 2017

Valkyr1983 said:
So if you want your AAA games to maintain oversexualization you are not allowed to express that?

I'm not going to use the word censor because I agree with you. I'm just explaining why the extreme reactions. I tend to be more levelheaded about it

I'm not going to throw a fit and stop playing games , but if characters like Cindy, quiet, Cammy and 2B stopped existing AS IS, yeah I'd be really bummed out about it. Enough to vocalize why it's important to me they stay

No, you are allowed but ofcourse everyone won't agree. And people might act hostile towards you when doing so. Just like people are very hostile towards those who criticize the oversexualization. I said that there shouldn't be any gatekeeping what kind of feedback is allowed. Well ofcourse it shouldn't be too rude and threats are way overboard. But any aspect of games should be allowed to criticized and complimented. Positive feedback is also feedback. Character designs, dialogue, perfomance, gameplay loop, progression, soundtrack, controls etc.

I like Bayonetta myself, the character. I'm well aware that many people don't and think it's too much. But I don't get angry when people criticize her. I see where they are coming from but the character and how she is portrayed is mostly fine by me for few reasons. People call Witcher 3 misogynistic, I REALLY disagree and definitely tell why I do. I'm not gonna lie, really agressive attacks towards the game do frustrate me. But I'm not worried of any censorship happening. If the devs agree with the criticism and take it to heart, then they do. It's up to them. I'm willing to discuss with anyone, without trying to silence them.

Of course you and me are coming from a different position. You specifically like sexualized characters, I just don't mind some of them. If games wouldn't be allowed to have any nudity or sex at all anywhere, I would also speak against that. Still I feel comfortable and safe criticizing some designs and portrayals that either don't fit or are just ridiculous and tasteless, without fearing that devs would lose their right for artistic expression and freedom.

Dary · Dec 26, 2017

Dragmire said:
Merry Holidays from Nintendo and their new iconic character everyone:

"His designs were easier to animate".

PtM · Dec 26, 2017

Weltall Zero said:
I can't believe we're doing the criticism = censorship dance again. This is fucking unbelievable.

At no point did I claim I didn't want less of it, by the way. Just so we're clear on your pathetic attempt at a gotcha.

I quoted you as an anchor into that specific sub-thread, I wasn't addressing you alone, sorry.
And I did say calling censorship was reductionist, okay?

D.A. said:
Media influences. But to a point. It isnt going to cause you to want a limbless mustache bearing morbidly obese deformed lady over an attractive athletic woman. No matter what those culture supremacists tell you it ain't happening

Most people violent media isn't going to cause them to go out on a shooting rampage or to violently hit a romantic partner.

Yes, my point is to not argue in extremes.

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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