What is this sea-lion routine you speak of?
The difference being that someone claiming the world is flat doesn't have an overwhelming body of supporting evidence and personal accounts of explorers finding the edges, available at a moment's notice, that anyone interested in the topic could look up before joining the discussion.Yeah because that's the same thing as what I'm doing sure.
When you meet a flat earther make sure you don't start asking then to prove their beliefs because you might be sea lioning.
But what are you trying to say? It seems to me that your point is that 'things aren't that bad' - something entirely irrelevant to the discussion. People have tried to explain institutionalized sexism to you more than once, and there is no lack of online resources and articles to find on the subject. You seem to ignore those and fall back on the same anecdotal evidence and feelings. It's an endless loop. It adds nothing to the discussion and only serves to detract from or diminish the issue being discussed.I specifically said sexism was real though. I'm not arguing against that. If you go back to my previous posts you can see the issue I take here is regarding if sexism is ingrained into our society. As in it's part of the system and therefore affects everyone. I'm not an American so maybe it is awful over there but at least where I live the women I talk to haven't been disadvantaged in their life for being women. Now of course I know that's just anecdotal evidence and I know those women don't speak for all women. I'm not trying to dismiss all women and their experiences. I think it's fucking awful when women get any shit for being a woman. There are gross dudes out there that harass women, no argument against that. There are shitty companies that don't pay women as much as dudes, no argument against that.
The only thing I argue is that it's inherently in our system. It can't be because if that was the case it would affect all women but it doesn't. Now of course that doesn't mean the struggles other women face are invalid. They are not and I will support them to fight for a better future.
Now I don't want to derail this thread anymore but I had to come out and say this because I'm tired of people labeling me as a damn troll. If I was a troll I'd be shitposting to the max but I'm seriously trying to be a reasonable as I can. Least you all could do is give me the benefit of the doubt.
Yeah because that's the same thing as what I'm doing sure.
When you meet a flat earther make sure you don't start asking then to prove their beliefs because you might be sea lioning.
I speak now from my own perspective. I won't speak for the women that you know personally. If they have truly never been victims of some form of sexism, systematic or otherwise, then I am truly happy for them. However, I do not believe that to be the case. Most women just don't speak about their experiences because they get dismissed or mansplained in some fashion, which shuts them up. I, myself, have kept quiet on numerous occasions. Because who cares what a woman has to say? This thread is evidence of that, clearly.I specifically said sexism was real though. I'm not arguing against that. If you go back to my previous posts you can see the issue I take here is regarding if sexism is ingrained into our society. As in it's part of the system and therefore affects everyone. I'm not an American so maybe it is awful over there but at least where I live the women I talk to haven't been disadvantaged in their life for being women. Now of course I know that's just anecdotal evidence and I know those women don't speak for all women. I'm not trying to dismiss all women and their experiences. I think it's fucking awful when women get any shit for being a woman. There are gross dudes out there that harass women, no argument against that. There are shitty companies that don't pay women as much as dudes, no argument against that.
The only thing I argue is that it's inherently in our system. It can't be because if that was the case it would affect all women but it doesn't. Now of course that doesn't mean the struggles other women face are invalid. They are not and I will support them to fight for a better future.
Now I don't want to derail this thread anymore but I had to come out and say this because I'm tired of people labeling me as a damn troll. If I was a troll I'd be shitposting to the max but I'm seriously trying to be a reasonable as I can. Least you all could do is give me the benefit of the doubt.
I wont talk about other mediums, but remember that vidya (counting out mobile market) its mostly made up of males as the user base and so, the target audience
But what are you trying to say? It seems to me that your point is that 'things aren't that bad' - something entirely irrelevant to the discussion. People have tried to explain institutionalized sexism to you more than once, and there is no lack of online resources and articles to find on the subject. You seem to ignore those and fall back on the same anecdotal evidence and feelings. It's an endless loop. It adds nothing to the discussion and only serves to detract from or diminish the issue being discussed.
I don't think you have bad intentions, it's just that the main point you want to make (sexism exists but there is no institutionalized sexism) serves no real purpose other than to detract from the discussion, and you seem unable to support that point with anything other than anecdotal evidence and feelings.
If you would try to shitpost, you would have been warned/banned by now. Can't do something so obvious.Now I don't want to derail this thread anymore but I had to come out and say this because I'm tired of people labeling me as a damn troll. If I was a troll I'd be shitposting to the max but I'm seriously trying to be a reasonable as I can. Least you all could do is give me the benefit of the doubt.
Which is such a none argument.
1) First this very thread has plenty of men saying they are getting fed up the heavy fanservice.
2) Women are the biggest growth potential for a lot of games. Some games already have a big female audience. It makes no business sense to actively alienate this market.
3) And isn't it easy to not talk about other media because it doesn't fit your narrative.
I speak now from my own perspective. I won't speak for the women that you know personally. If they have truly never been victims of some form of sexism, systematic or otherwise, then I am truly happy for them. However, I do not believe that to be the case. Most women just don't speak about their experiences because they get dismissed or mansplained in some fashion, which shuts them up. I, myself, have kept quiet on numerous occasions. Because who cares what a woman has to say? This thread is evidence of that, clearly.
Sexism is absolutely ingrained in our society, in our history, and in our culture. Women only received the right to vote within the last century. We have continuously struggled to be included in STEM fields, maintenance fields, and other male dominated industries, because many view that we are "incapable" of doing said jobs or doing anything other than being wives and mothers. I, myself, work in maintenance on military-grade aircraft. I maintain systems and have knowledge that most people struggle to understand. I work in a unit of about 15 women, total, in contrast to about 150 men. And I have had to work twice as hard as my male coworkers to be treated with the same level of respect. I wasn't even allowed to carry the toolbox because the guys thought I couldn't handle it when I first got here. They insisted on carrying it for me. I had to prove them wrong. I have been mansplained at my job because they thought I couldn't understand maintenance and mechanical concepts. I have been told on numerous occasions that "you're just a SJW and you'll complain about anything, you don't have it as bad as you say." These are all examples of sexism, and it happens to more than just me on a daily basis, worldwide.
Men do these things because they have, historically, been taught that it's okay. It's okay to tell a woman that she should smile more, because the purpose of a woman is to be pretty so that men will be attracted to her. It's okay to call her a bitch if she turns a man down, because the only thing girls are good for is to be a piece of ass. It's okay to implement wage gaps based on gender, because women shouldn't be included in the workplace anyway. It's okay for a man to tell a woman what to do with her own body in regards to abortion or otherwise, because a woman's body is truly the property of her husband or boyfriend. These are all examples of sexism.
Even in video games, we are treated like second-class citizens and inferior to male gamers. When was the last time you saw a woman in any prominent e-sports team? Why are women constantly delegated to support-type roles and if we dare play anything else, we get treated like we don't know what we're doing? It has happened to me NUMEROUS times. Why are female characters treated like sex objects to be consumed by the male gaze through fanservice, sexual attitudes and portrayals, and a general sense of inferiority to their male counterparts? These are all examples of sexism.
And now, the very topic of this thread. Female character designs are highly sexualized and objectified in contrast to their male counterparts for the purpose of attracting male consumers, even if it degrades or offends the real life women who may play the game. It is a reflection of a gender, as a whole, that women are good for nothing more than to be aesthetically pleasing. Why is this? Because men have been taught by society and history that it's okay to treat women like this, and because women have been taught to shut up and deal with it, that video games are for boys, and if you don't like it, then too bad. It is unfair, and it is a form of sexism.
Just because you haven't personally experienced it does not mitigate the effects of sexism in the lives of others, nor does it disprove its existence in both the modern and virtual worlds.
Sent to 600,000 people and response rate was 11%. Not exactly what I'd call comprehensive given how many Switches have been sold. It's also US only and shows buyers, not players.1) and how much of that represent the whole industry? how many of em are % of all the people and males that buy games??? they are entitled to their opinion as we all are, but that does not means their opinion weights more or less than anyone else.
2) yes, there are games direct to women or made straight up to appeal to em. or count em withing the broard audience, there is a sub genre (otome) dedicated for women. does that means that there should stop making games more aimed towards men??
3) cause this is a VIDEO GAMES Sub Forum?? not Etcetera.
Its not a narrative,nor im just pulling numbers out of my ass or anything, take for Example Nintendo. the one called usually the family friend console
Thanks for not dismissing me as a troll. It's getting frustrating when everyone thinks I'm just some edgelord anti-feminist shitposter. I think I'll drop out of this discussion to not derail the thread anymore. Also I'll check out some papers on this topic maybe I missed something.
edit: Oops, early post. I hope you at least take away something positive from the discussion, or at least gained some insights into why people are so passionate in discussing these issues, despite the perceived nastiness.Also one last thing: I read your post piratebae and I agree with you. The treatment you receive is absolutely not okay. I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my skepticism.
These kinds of arguments based on market data simply loop into themselves. Videogames are marketed towards men, so more men buy videogames, so more men play videogames, so more videogames are made for men. It's entirely self-contained. The statistics simply show that the issue is there, not that videogames are inherently 'male' or 'for boys'.1) and how much of that represent the whole industry? how many of em are % of all the people and males that buy games??? they are entitled to their opinion as we all are, but that does not means their opinion weights more or less than anyone else.
2) yes, there are games direct to women or made straight up to appeal to em. or count em withing the broard audience, there is a sub genre (otome) dedicated for women. does that means that there should stop making games more aimed towards men??
3) cause this is a VIDEO GAMES Sub Forum?? not Etcetera.
Its not a narrative,nor im just pulling numbers out of my ass or anything, take for Example Nintendo. the one called usually the family friend console
The data does not show an actual gender split among Switch players.I expected a skew towards male purchasers, but did not expect a skew this hard. I have a feeling that the survey only being sent to people with a NNID might skew the survey more heavily in favor of male purchasers than what the actual split is. It would be entirely unsurprising to me if women were generally less likely to connect their systems to online accounts, considering the toxicity of the online gaming community. That + the survey focusing on only the purchaser and seemingly only on a single person in each household based on 'who wanted it most'. From what I understand, a man buying a Switch to share between himself and his wife / girlfriend would only show up as a 'male purchaser' in these statistics, i.e. these statistics are not an accurate representation of the gender split between actual Switch users.
Also, maybe it's just me, but I'm not a fan of people in this thread referring to women as 'females'. We're people, you know? You can just say women.
1) and how much of that represent the whole industry? how many of em are % of all the people and males that buy games??? they are entitled to their opinion as we all are, but that does not means their opinion weights more or less than anyone else.
2) yes, there are games direct to women or made straight up to appeal to em. or count em withing the broard audience, there is a sub genre (otome) dedicated for women. does that means that there should stop making games more aimed towards men??
3) cause this is a VIDEO GAMES Sub Forum?? not Etcetera.
Its not a narrative,nor im just pulling numbers out of my ass or anything, take for Example Nintendo. the one called usually the family friend console
When was the last time you watched a mainstream movie where the camera lingered on the butt of the male character?
Or how many lingering shots do we see of Hugh Jackmans torso that distract from the movie?
But let's stick with the x-men and suppose wolverine is oversexualised purely for women.
Magneto and Prof x : middle age man
Beast : blue animal like
Cyclops : can't even see his eyes most of the time
Yet for the women we have Storm and Jean.
I take the older movies as examples but feel free to use the more current ones.
And that is the problem. Not that women are sexualised but that it is so common.
I love jrpgs but I barely play them nowadays. The fanservice is just putting me off. I'm going to buy xenoblade next month but it might be my last try.
Sent to 600,000 people and response rate was 11%. Not exactly what I'd call comprehensive given how many Switches have been sold. It's also US only and shows buyers, not players.
Ok, to be fair, Hard Data on gender demographic is hard to come by as most studies are done by independent parties on what would be rather small sample userbase and then just extrapolated the % as Dmax said, the Switch thing is highly small compared to the whole Units sold.The data does not show an actual gender split among Switch players.
I dont feel publisher do this out of evil or not caring for women, but more as financial matter. the cycle or marketed, buy and made for is something that comes from the early era of vidya were men do were out of question the major userbase. today on. more and more women are into games. some games cause of their broad appeal (think Mario Kart for example) and some games directly designed to appeal to em (mostly Otome tho) and the indie scene tries it hand a lot to make games that will attract em.Videogames are marketed towards men, so more men buy videogames, so more men play videogames, so more videogames are made for men. It's entirely self-contained.
That graph is a better analysis of early adopters than of Nintendo's wider customer base.1) and how much of that represent the whole industry? how many of em are % of all the people and males that buy games??? they are entitled to their opinion as we all are, but that does not means their opinion weights more or less than anyone else.
2) yes, there are games direct to women or made straight up to appeal to em. or count em withing the broard audience, there is a sub genre (otome) dedicated for women. does that means that there should stop making games more aimed towards men??
3) cause this is a VIDEO GAMES Sub Forum?? not Etcetera.
Its not a narrative,nor im just pulling numbers out of my ass or anything, take for Example Nintendo. the one called usually the family friend console
Its a recurring theme of this thread for most of the later pages, and even I probably did the same by bringing out a repeat discussion. I think all possible takes on why the women in the thread would like a reduction in hormonal pandering on videogames in general has been made, and drive by or repeat posts just pad the pagesHey, it's that switch pic that got posted and adressed like 40 pages ago!
I think you are taking my example as an insinuation that I think men are sexualized as much or as often as women. I dont. It is blatantly obvious that T&A is much more commonly used as a pandering tool to sell products (games, lingerie, movies, alcohol, you name it).
I was merely trying to draw some sort of a relation to explain why I feel like male video game characters are sexualized as well (and much more freuquently than male chars in movies or TV as your Prof X/Beast/etc example shows).
Another poster mentioned that I am confusing 'idealization' and 'sexualization'. I would argue they are one and the same. It is very difficult to sexualize an average-sized, average-featured character, either male or female. By making every video game character the idealized version of that sex, they are inherently sexualized.
Please dont mistake this as a "both sides" argument. If all boobs and scantily clad women were removed from all games, but we still had the chiseled muscle men, I wouldnt have a problem with that, because the power dynamic is different. You arent exploiting the male characters nearly as much as the female, simply because we live in a patriarchal society. Much like how although racism against whites exists, it isnt nearly as endemic nor as problematic simply because of the power dynamic of whites being in the majority.
So yes, I do agree that the sexualization of female characterd is a problem. But that problem is a symptom of a much bigger issue about catering to base human instincts, of which sex and sexuality is only one. Until we solve the latter, bigger problem, I feel like the symptom of sexual pandering isn't going anywhere.
Its not a narrative,nor im just pulling numbers out of my ass or anything, take for Example Nintendo. the one called usually the family friend console
This is true and common problem but I'd hardly throw out the data, the number of the sample size is very good though obviously self selecting and the wording isn't too awful.Regarding this chart, the problem with it is outright stated in the note at the bottom, the data collection method. An Intro to Statistics student can pretty much rip this data to pieces; however, since it has been so long since I have been in that class, I found something that can explain the problems here better than I can.
The advantages and disadvantages of questionnaires
I did indeed and I'm happy to read your explanation although I don't necessarily agree.
I don't think sexualised characters are bad per se. No matter the gender. I think it only becomes an issue when it is so much more common.
If a jrpg had a few ridiculous designs for both male and female and had a bunch of normal designs personally I would be fine.
With the gaze camera shots being an exception. They always distract away. I wish that shit would die.
Great chart but it only proves my point. The numbers are a lot lower then the ps4 or even the 3ds.
1)So Nintendo already have the male buyers but not the female buyers. RPGs are a genre popular amongst women so it would be more sensible to refrain from designs that repeal women.
2) Also there is no proof that a jrpg with huge amounts of fan service sells better than the ones without.
3) So I should be happy with a specific subgenre while the rest of gaming is aimed at men. And not just aimed at men but who feels like reducing designs to fuck holes is totally okay?
4) When I was growing up gaming was for kids not just boys. Maybe girls stopped gaming because they were treated as second rate citizens. Maybe the fact that for most systems we are still a third of the market shows how much women like gaming.
Yeah that really would be a nice change. I have found myself drifting away from AAA games in general, especially shooters and JRPGs, because of the blatant pandering. I dont like calling it fan service, because which fans is it servicing? Obviously not the women, gay men, or straight men that arent sexually repressed juveniles. It's really pathetic sometimes.
Piratebae mentioned something that I wanted to address in her explaination of instances of sexism - men wanting to carry the tool box (not letting her specifically). This touches on part of this discussion that is very difficult for men. Growing up, many of us were taught to respect women, but also to be chivalrous (open the door for her, offer to carry a heavy object, etc). In today's culture though, even the mere offerance of assistance is seen as sexism. So my question is when does it become sexism? Is my merely OFFERING to carry the tools or open a door sexism? Or does it only become sexism if the woman declines assistance and I insist on her taking it? I ask because as I said I was raised to be chivalrous and helpful to women, but have had offerances of help result in both good and bad reactions. Interestingly enough, I work as a male nurse and whenever something calls for someone strong , the female nurses always ask me for help even if there are other female nurses working that are LITERALLY 2x as strong as me.
But they are not one and the same. An idealized character is not inherently sexualized. There is nothing sexual about how Christian Bale Batman is portrayed. Wonder Woman is arguably an idealized character, but she is not overtly sexualized. Anyone may find either of them sexy for whatever reason, but they aren't portrayed as sexualized. Yes, characters can be both, but idealization does not inherently lead to sexualization.Another poster mentioned that I am confusing 'idealization' and 'sexualization'. I would argue they are one and the same. It is very difficult to sexualize an average-sized, average-featured character, either male or female. By making every video game character the idealized version of that sex, they are inherently sexualized.
So yes, I do agree that the sexualization of female characterd is a problem. But that problem is a symptom of a much bigger issue about catering to base human instincts, of which sex and sexuality is only one. Until we solve the latter, bigger problem, I feel like the symptom of sexual pandering isn't going anywhere.
I don't think they do it out of evil either. They do it because there is a perceived risk, but that risk is not one I see any basis in reality for. Horizon Zero Dawn has a female protagonist, and I see no evidence that that alone had any negative effect on the game's sales.I dont feel publisher do this out of evil or not caring for women, but more as financial matter. the cycle or marketed, buy and made for is something that comes from the early era of vidya were men do were out of question the major userbase. today on. more and more women are into games. some games cause of their broad appeal (think Mario Kart for example) and some games directly designed to appeal to em (mostly Otome tho) and the indie scene tries it hand a lot to make games that will attract em.
Its AA-AAA publisher that given the cost of marketing and production would rather stay within its safe boundaries of who to aim for when making a game.
1) Back to %, how many woman do feel "repealed" by the designs of an RPG? how many woman decided to skip Berseria cause Velvet// Magillou or Automata cause of 2B?? sure there are people that wont feel it appeals to em, its happens to every aspect of a game, but its hard to really condemn said aspect if we dont know how much it really favors or not user attention.
also is not like Publisher are not aware of this. Final Fantasy, one of the most (if not the most) Popular RPG series, XV core cast is Bishonen (beautiful youth (boy)).
im not dismissing it, im just saying how much can the opinion of the people (woman) in the forum be reflected on the whole market??Would you demanding this if we were talking about not liking open world games? Most of the women in this thread are trying to make their displeasure known.
Yet you dismiss it first as not being an issue because games is aimed at men and then not being an issue because women don't care enough themselves.
Well here we are trying to let the world know that we are interested in games and that we don't like it when games have those pandering designs.
But they are not one and the same. An idealized character is not inherently sexualized. There is nothing sexual about how Christian Bale Batman is portrayed. Wonder Woman is arguably an idealized character, but she is not overtly sexualized. Anyone may find either of them sexy for whatever reason, but they aren't portrayed as sexualized. Yes, characters can be both, but idealization does not inherently lead to sexualization.
We all know that this is part of a larger problem. Discussing these issues is still important because it makes more people aware of them, which in turn may eventually reach those in power.
I don't think they do it out of evil either. They do it because there is a perceived risk, but that risk is not one I see any basis in reality for. Horizon Zero Dawn has a female protagonist, and I see no evidence that that alone had any negative effect on the game's sales.
'We can do a poll based on an extreme simplification of the thread title, but even if the results state the opposite of what I imagine they will, it would be irrelevant'.im not dismissing it, im just saying how much can the opinion of the people (woman) in the forum be reflected on the whole market??
we sure can make a poll for all RE User (30,422) about whether or not fanservice in a game is a con for em. and we will know the general opinion of the forum, but those 30K people we can not just assume they are a 1:1 reflect of the market when (if we imply there are about 100M single count players in the market) 30K user equals 0.03% sample data.
Vidya is slowly transitioning to appeal more to woman, maybe is too slow for some people, maybe will take another 10 years to be more evident, but changes are being made, baby steps, baby steps
Would you offer a male friend to help carry his suitcase? If he had a long trip or you can see him struggling. You probably would. If he declined would you keep insisting?
I don't have an issue with offering unless it is very clear I don't need help. But insisting is annoying. And I like it when people hold the door when they get there first but I will do the same and I expect you to walk through it without freaking out.
I actually had a coworker who started to walk faster everytime we got near a door. Afraid I would hold the door. He was shocked after the first time.
im not saying we should not talk about it, im saying we can not extrapolate the forum as 1:1 image of the industry as a whole.'We can do a poll but even if the results state the opposite of what I imagine they will it would be irrelevant'.
Developers don't need to have a financial interest in solely making characters to cater to women. They should make better characters because it makes better games, something that is very much within the remit of criticism and forum discussion. 'More rounded, varied female characters' is hardly unreasonable.
im not saying we should not talk about it, im saying we can not extrapolate the forum as 1:1 image of the industry as a whole.
regarding the "characters that appeal to women are you implying on a reverse sexualized male characters or female role models?? cause both exist tho. not as wide as the ones aimed for men, but they exist, some have been for decades (hi Samus). those characters keep popping up, slowly, but they do.
I believe some times, female characters are overlooked personality wise just cause they are also sexy.
apologize if it reads like that. not the intention, but I think is worth to mention as some post (IMO) read as if the industry were not even trying or never have.Your posts are really coming off as "there are examples of good female characters so lets stop worry about the massive flood of the opposite" and "change is happening, its slow but its happening so thats good enough".
I think thats a sentiment that everyone should agree with no mater the gender viewing this thread. A forced camera up a girl in shorts ass or bikini armor as a default outfit will not enhance the experience of anyone playing a game for the pursuit of having fun with a videogame.Developers don't need to have a financial interest in solely making characters to cater to women. They should make better characters because it makes better games, something that is very much within the remit of criticism and forum discussion. 'More rounded, varied female characters, yes/no' is hardly unreasonable and would get a better response than 'is fanservice a pro/con', when eradificaion of it isn't what people are asking for. Nobody wants to take the cartoon titties away, it just gets framed that way as it's easier to rally support against the argument that way.
Pretty much your most latter point. Obviously not randomly tossing it into works where it wouldn't make at least partial sense (though with the camo index, boxer Snake in MGS3 might be a neat challenge). Otome's are the best place to find that kind of stuff right now, but they're unfortunately on the lower-budget end. A mid-budget action game targeting the otome VN audience would be super nice.I don't agree with this.
Not in the way fanservice is commonly presented in games, anyway. Because, frankly, I find it incredibly stupid either way. I don't want Nathan Drake or Solid Snake or whoever to run around in short shorts, even if it'd be "hot". It would immediately take me out of the game and make me roll my eyes. Hell, MGS3 has some female fanservice with Snake having a few shirtless scenes, and even a sex scene in the ending -- and that's fine, it fit the story. If you played Snake the whole game in boxer briefs, it might be "eye candy" but it'd be so juvenile and dumb, I sure don't want that, and I doubt many people would. Likewise, in a game like Fire Emblem, I wouldn't want all the dudes to start wearing "sexy", out of place outfits, because... it looks stupid and undermines the characters and/or the tone of the game. If by "more equal fanservice" you mean more scenes with hot dudes and ladies that actually make sense in the story, and isn't pathetically juvenile, then uh, sure, could be enjoyable I guess, but it's so rare, the MGS3 example is the only one that comes to mind. xD
apologize if it reads like that. not the intention, but I think is worth to mention as some post (IMO) read as if the industry were not even trying or never have.
Almost 60 pages and the thread has become "sexism isn't real" and "women don't play games anyway who cares"
Wow
It's time for Exercise 2, it seems! :P Spot the attractive guy:
Would you offer a male friend to help carry his suitcase? If he had a long trip or you can see him struggling. You probably would. If he declined would you keep insisting?
I don't have an issue with offering unless it is very clear I don't need help. But insisting is annoying. And I like it when people hold the door when they get there first but I will do the same and I expect you to walk through it without freaking out.
I actually had a coworker who started to walk faster everytime we got near a door. Afraid I would hold the door. He was shocked after the first time.
Oh yeah I certainly offer to help males if I see them struggling or if I know it is better a two-person job than a one person job. And I have a tendency to hold the door for whoever happens to be behind me. But I have opened a car door for a female date in the past. Some responded that it was sweet. A couple were massively offended that I even attempted to open the car door for them, one so much so that the date ended right then and there. I was just trying to be chivalrous, but it was outright offensive to a couple of women. I occasionally open the door of the car or a store for my wife, though extremely rarely for the car. Store doors I tend to always get because my arms have a longer reach, but I dont step to the side in an 'after you madame' way, just push it aside and walk through holding it, either in front of or behind her. She has never been offended and often says 'thanks babe'.
Obviously it depends entirely on the person and the context. If I were working with Piratebae and offered to carry a heavy toolbox once and she declined, I would likely never offer again. Gotta acknowledge boundaries when they are presented. It is still very confusing when it seems like a lot of women want us to assume they are strong enough, while an equally large number (like my coworkers) keep having th3se expectations of "the big strong man will help". I mean I am downright self conscious about it. I'm not small or weak, being 6'1" and 195lbs, but if a female coworker asks for my help lifting or moving a patient that fell on the floor and I can't do it due to not being strong enough, it is embarassing. The expectation of my strength as a man feels somewhat like what I imagine the expectation of looking pretty would feel like as a woman.
I don't mean to derail the thread. If this is too OT we can go to PMs.
And you didn't even mention Mystique, the blue girl played by a supermodel who literally shows onscreen butt naked except for a few skin scales. I mean:
.
Games are full of half naked men with pounding muscles and textured nipples. Maybe in one out of hundred games there is a woman who is modeled in a sexist exploited way - and only then it becomes a "big deal". The hypocrisy knows no boundaries.
If there is someone who should be angry, it is the men. Men are some of the most exploited creatures on this planet. The sexism against men is ten times worse than the one against women. Just watch any Hollywood movie and count the half naked men compared to half naked women, I swear you will be surprised by the ratio. Muscles everywhere, men are sex objects much more often than women.
And remember that all these products where men are being exploited, the producers are mostly men.
How is it when the producers are women? Just look at the Japanese ikemen-gay games where almost all the staff are women. They draw some of the most sexist shit on this planet and make all men look like sex slaves to women.
Games are full of half naked men with pounding muscles and textured nipples. Maybe in one out of hundred games there is a woman who is modeled in a sexist exploited way - and only then it becomes a "big deal". The hypocrisy knows no boundaries.
If there is someone who should be angry, it is the men. Men are some of the most exploited creatures on this planet. The sexism against men is ten times worse than the one against women. Just watch any Hollywood movie and count the half naked men compared to half naked women, I swear you will be surprised by the ratio. Muscles everywhere, men are shown as sex objects much more often than women.
And remember that all these products where men are being exploited, the producers are mostly men.
How is it when the producers are women? Just look at the Japanese ikemen-gay games where almost all the staff are women. They draw some of the most sexist shit on this planet and make all men look like sex slaves to women.
I do not like this debate.