Its wrong for the sole fact that no kid will fucking willingly take part on that without being forced or tricked into it
Not that I agree with the guy, but the way you've "quoted" him here is really disgusting.
Its wrong for the sole fact that no kid will fucking willingly take part on that without being forced or tricked into it
doesn't sit right with me to criminalize any victimless behaviour
Yeah I was more just trying to make a comparison to how divided I feel at times regarding things like this. Sorry to go off topic.
Worth noting that this also applies to Quiet with her getting horribly burned and falling out of a window at the start of the game, leading to involuntary operations that infect her with a parasite which renders her unable to talk and apparently unable to wear clothes. Also things like introducing a girlfriend / wife / female ally character only to kill them off to provide the male character with a motivation (player character wife in Shadow of Mordor for example). I agree it would probably be better to make a separate thread for that.I think games that treat women like shit without objectifying them is a whole other can of worms worth discussing. Might make a thread.
only if the complaining side is a minority, but if the people that complain and dont buy are a majority, teh game will flop and director will be kicked out.
Alright but I'm putting everything in spoilers so warning this game is very recent.
It's the biggest reason I still haven't picked up the game despite loving the series.Danganronapa V3
Hey you know that female lead were promoting? Yeah just kidding we're going to brutally kill her off at the end of chapter 1 to switch to the real lead, another awkward indecisive male. Also we're going to reveal at the end that she was actually framed and killed for no reason!
I'm aware and in fact I think that we shouldn't criminalize almost every victimless activityI just want to note, we do criminalize a lot of victimless activities.
I have a question. I know by buying this stuff, I'm part of the problem. I don't at all reject the far too slowly changing landscape, and I get very excited about unique and deep female characters, so I definitely support those too. But look at me. I am willing to admit how much of a pervert I am. Like, I've bought every Senran Kagura game. I use the revealing outfits in Dragon's Dogma. I guess what I'm wondering can I still call myself a supporter and fighter for the advancement of respectful representation of women if I'm still contributing to the market containing the contrary?
Am I a total hypocrite for how angry I get about all the misogyny and sexism in gaming and the world? :(
I'd actually be interested in that because objectification is so commonly part of when a game treats women like shit. Like, Metroid Other M is probably the most sexist game I know of purely from the story, but the cutscenes are also loaded with male gaze shots every time Samus is wearing the Zero Suit. The closest thing I can think of is Soul Calibur V's roster where almost all the male characters were allowed to keep fighting into their 40s and 50s but almost every female character who wasn't some kind of immortal was retired.I think games that treat women like shit without objectifying them is a whole other can of worms worth discussing. Might make a thread.
I don't think these two things are that contradictory, honestly.
Sexism as we're discussing it here is a thing that exists in context of the society that we've built, as a set of problems in representation and treatment that have been and continue to be ingrained in how we do things. Sexism is the fact that an unsettlingly large majority of games feature anything from male gaze in the camerawork or disproportionately sexualized designs for women, to even outright soft pornography. This can render attempting to play games at all to walking through a minefield. Especially if you particularly like genres that are prone to it, but most egregiously even if you exclusively play blockbusters that are ostensibly meant for the largest possible target audience.
Sexism, as a societal problem, isn't the inherent existence of individual products that pander to you as someone attracted to women, but the overall market trends that create that minefield. It's a basic biological fact that humans tend to like sex stuff in one way or another, and there should be no shame in that. Plenty of women consume or are involved in the production of stuff like this. You shouldn't feel shame for the fact that the current market caters to you any more than a white man in the western world should spend every day of his life feeling crushing self-disgust for having been born in a position of societal privilege. That's not what most people are looking for, here, because it's ultimately unproductive anyway.
Rather, the recognition that that minefield is a problem and fighting to clean up the issue is what people are looking for.
The things you like wouldn't, inherently, be a problem if they were mirrors of a suitable alternative for female [edit: rather, male-attracted] demographics in niches where they belong, and weren't so pervasive in mainstream-targeted products. This isn't a fight to make titillating games disappear entirely, it's a fight to make developers realize that there's a time and a place for titillation and Literally All the Time and Everywhere isn't that time and place. More than with wallets, it's a battle fought through discourse and exhausting, exhausting circular debate against people that you have to continuously assume are making the same arguments over and over in good faith even though sometimes they aren't.
An extra--heck a few thousand extra--copies of a niche titillating game being sold isn't going to do much if any harm to lasting change. Like the things you like, recognize and be willing to talk about it when they're problematic. Ask questions like the one I'm responding to now, because it means you're being introspective and that's important to a healthy psychological outlook.
Perhaps most importantly, help out by tagging in when people are ready to collapse on the death-march of circuitous absurdity that is this thread and those like it. These are the things you can do to help, and things you already do as far as I can see.
I'd like to think that's a relatively reasonable stance, anyway. I like a lot of trashy stuff too so maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel better. I'm not an authority on this kind of thing.
I have a question. I know by buying this stuff, I'm part of the problem. I don't at all reject the far too slowly changing landscape, and I get very excited about unique and deep female characters, so I definitely support those too. But look at me. I am willing to admit how much of a pervert I am. Like, I've bought every Senran Kagura game. I use the revealing outfits in Dragon's Dogma. I guess what I'm wondering can I still call myself a supporter and fighter for the advancement of respectful representation of women if I'm still contributing to the market containing the contrary?
Am I a total hypocrite for how angry I get about all the misogyny and sexism in gaming and the world? :(
Any attempt to use this graphic to make an argument beyond its scope - its scope being "who wanted to buy a console outside of a retail holiday season" - is idiotic and shows a complete lack of critical thinking, as well as a failure to understand statistical data.Its not a narrative,nor im just pulling numbers out of my ass or anything, take for Example Nintendo. the one called usually the family friend console
Bring receipts showing that straight women find the "video game idealized" male form attractive. I will accept receipts from gay/bi/pan men too.Another poster mentioned that I am confusing 'idealization' and 'sexualization'. I would argue they are one and the same. It is very difficult to sexualize an average-sized, average-featured character, either male or female. By making every video game character the idealized version of that sex, they are inherently sexualized.
Let's do some critical thinking.im not dismissing it, im just saying how much can the opinion of the people (woman) in the forum be reflected on the whole market??
Are you being paid to defend "the industry"? Not that it matters, I'm merely trying to understand your motivation to protect it from criticism, which most prople consider a method of collecting data for making improvements.apologize if it reads like that. not the intention, but I think is worth to mention as some post (IMO) read as if the industry were not even trying or never have.
No.Am I a total hypocrite for how angry I get about all the misogyny and sexism in gaming and the world? :(
Are you an expert on being a victim of sexism? I would like to hear your thoughts on how it feels to be treated in a very sexist way.I don't equate 'sexy' with 'sexist', while OP claims to not do the same their logic says otherwise.
This tbh, quiet in mgsvtpp :/I'm at the point now where whenever I see a really overtly sexualised female character, I just find it extremely awkward and embarrassing.
I think games that treat women like shit without objectifying them is a whole other can of worms worth discussing. Might make a thread.
I mean...they do, that's why SFM exist.I, for one, am deeply offended by the underlying premise of this thread, which implies males tend to get sexually aroused by some polygons that are somehow supposed to represent the female body.
Your statement is incomplete.I, for one, am deeply offended by the underlying premise of this thread, which implies males tend to get sexually aroused by some polygons that are somehow supposed to represent the female body.
Yeah, but game publishers undervalueing their audience is nothing new.Your statement is incomplete.
You mean, that video game developers and publishers constantly ASSUME such.
Hey, what' your avatar? It looks familiar.
In Wonder Woman case, for what I did see of JL (didn't see the movie) the camera between both movies is another example.
WW
JL
Yeah, but game publishers undervalueing their audience is nothing new.
To show that contrary to popular belief, I don't always find sexualization everywhere, I personally would have never even thought of the above sexualized (or even sexy), just a typical Matrix slo-mo of the main character kicking ass and taking names.
I thought Whedon was just reshooting parts of the film, didn't Snyder do most of the work?I mean it's more hard to see if you don't compare it and it's kind of a tame stuff, but the point is that the WW shot focus on the kick while the JL shot focus more on her ass. It's not about the move itself (of course that kick is not something sexualized) but how it is filmed. Probably not a big deal, but unnecesary, considering these angles are carefuly selected.
Also JL was filmed with Whedon, someone that admitted being kind of a perv lol
This is an amazing example of the difference can framing can make in sexual objectification. Literally the exact same move, except one uses slow-mo while she's rearing up to kick, and the other uses it when her bare ass is in the center of the frame and cuts to a beauty shot. Unbelievable.In Wonder Woman case, for what I did see of JL (didn't see the movie) the camera between both movies is another example.
WW
JL
I mean it's more hard to see if you don't compare it and it's kind of a tame stuff, but the point is that the WW shot focus on the kick while the JL shot focus more on her ass. It's not about the move itself (of course that kick is not something sexualized) but how it is filmed. Probably not a big deal, but unnecesary, considering these angles are carefuly selected.
Also JL was filmed with Whedon, someone that admitted being kind of a perv lol
I thought Whedon was just reshooting parts of the film, didn't Snyder do most of the work?
Oh, duh, I was meant to compare them both! Sorry, they seemed so similar I only focused on the first.
Actually, I think there's more than camerawork going on there. Isn't she just less covered in the second? She seems to wear barely more than a g-string.
In Wonder Woman case, for what I did see of JL (didn't see the movie) the camera between both movies is another example.
WW
JL
It's in the Japanese version, it fortunately got localized out for the English release.
I'd like to think Kojima has changed, but I feel like playing Snatcher has instead just made Quiet even more uncomfortable.
Keep in mind, this isn't a defense of the scene, but it's worth noting this trope was extremely common in anime and manga back in the 80s and 90s (the period Snatcher came out), but they've since moved away from this (for the most part). Even Rumiko Takahashi, the woman who created Ranma and InuYasha, used similar tropes in her manga works. Final Fantasy VII, unfortunately, has a similar gag, as Cloud can go into Tifa's room (during his flashback) and takes her panties. Even worse, you can make Cloud admit that it wasn't a joke.
Japan's largely moved away from such tropes in their works (edit, for clarification, day time anime, with some late night anime occasionally delving into this, unfortunately), and older anime that re-airs in today's climate that has said content, often airs with an advisory warning, despite the content being considered "okay" back in the day. There's, admittedly, still issues how entertainment handles certain groups of people (women to a degree, as we're discussing above but their depictions of homosexual and transgender individuals is... really not great).
let's not get crazyYeah I think, while not perfect certainly, anime seems like it's light years ahead of a lot of games right now.
let's not get crazy
anime is still the gold standard for dumbfuckery in this area
Interesting comparison you got there. Flat earthers vs women who claim they face everyday sexism. Huh.Yeah because that's the same thing as what I'm doing sure.
When you meet a flat earther make sure you don't start asking then to prove their beliefs because you might be sea lioning.
Ugh, she's presented as just a pair of breasts in this scene. How the fuck can a series go from The Boss in MGS3 to this shit?
Heh, I've said for a long time that the Boss was a fluke. Or, well, she's a good character because Kojima's ridiculous perviness was reigned in by someone else who told him "no" about the Boss having a "laughing" exposed breast.Christ. Maybe it's a good thing that Silent Hills got cancelled.
What baffle me the most about the Quiet example is, well, why she's even being debated. Many of the staunchest defenders of fanservice will still admit that Quiet is sexist garbage, because, well, it appears self-evident at this point. But somehow, you still got people using her as example to defend. Like, okay, we can discuss sexist portrayals with regards to some more nuanced but slightly problematic characters. Sure.There's also the scene where a Russian soldier drowns Quiet and then attempts to rape what he thinks is her corpse.
If you think objection to Quiet is petty prudishness then you're a total muppet or you haven't played the game.
I'd be happy to discuss the portrayal of men myself, FWIW, I just hate it when it's used as a distraction or deflection in topics about female objectification. ^^ Also, just to clarify the "power fantasy" argument; I'm not sure if that's what you meant by "scoffed and ridiculed", but I, and I assume others, don't mean to say that "it's a power fantasy" is an automatic defense of a design either, only that it's not particularly sexist or objectified. Power fantasy designs can still be criticized, and I wouldn't fault someone for taking issue with stereotypes about it. If a dude said he was sick of the "male power fantasy" stereotype and wanted more variety in types of male protagonists, I'd definitely support the notion and I would not ridicule him. Does that make sense? :) (That said, I do think that sexist stereotypes are worse than power fantasy stereotypes, for various reasons. But that doesn't mean there can't be any discussion whatsoever about it. Just time and place.)I can somewhat understand people complaining about there being no discussion about why men are being portrayed as buff/muscular, handsome dudes that can do anything and everything; how it's usually scoffed at and ridiculed by saying "it's just a power fantasy".
Good post.I'm not a woman, so perhaps I shouldn't chime in about the point at hand given the title of the topic, but personally I tend to make a distinction between fan-service oriented games, like DOA and Senran Kagura, and other titles, like the much discussed FFXV and Phantom Pain. Regarding the former, they pander to a very specific niche, so people who buy those games know what they are getting into. That's not to say that they are not quite tasteless, imo. I think that there are better ways, more artistically fulfilling, if you will, to make fanservice games. A good example of that would be a game like Code: Realize, though very different in nature than those mentioned, being a visual novel.
Regarding the latter, they are much more problematic, for a number of reasons. First is the fact that fanservice doesn't really have much of a place in those kind of games. It is jarring to say the least. Secondly is the discrepancy in the way female and male characters are depicted, of course.
I don't think fanservice is in itself a problem (though it could be argued that it perpetuates certain stereotypes and views that may affect the most impressionable, younger audience, to whom games like DOA of course should not be sold) but rather the fact that, by creeping in places where you wouldn't expect it to be, it's being normalized to the point that people are now confusing it with proper characterization.
That would be really surprising, since its female protagonist is definitely not as described in that spoiler tag.
Right? Claire does have a uniform with pants, and she looks damn cool, but they didn't keep that because... reasons? And yeah, like, I wouldn't mind if one girl out of the entire cast had a sexy look or whatever*, but the fact that they're all like that is pretty comical. And from what little I saw of CS3's designs, it's only getting worse. Fie already looked rather silly in CS2, but that new design... blech. And I had to google Angelica, and... my god, what have they done to her? She went from this (sexy, but not sexualized, and quite badass -- though funnily enough, in-game she looks more sexualized, the character model emphasizes her breasts more and makes her outfight seem tighter), to... this crap? Dammit, Falcom! :(In a vacuum I don't even mind those designs (except maybe the high heels specially for characters like Laura, but it gets annoying that it's everywhere
And in Claire's defense at least her main design is actually her uniform where she has actual pants (which is already better than the crossbell guard force uniforms where the girls use mini skirts because of course)
Althogh all those are miles better than whatever the fuck Altina is in Cold Steel 2
CS3 seems to be more of the same except Fie looks fucking ridiculous, Angelica is the only one I know that has a pair of paints but they decided to add some high heels even though she's a martial artist
Did you get to read this Eurogamer piece at the time? I think it's quite relevant to the discussion at this point, particularly regarding that scene.Perhaps the worst/most hilarious thing about Quiet is that her rape scene is meant to make the trash bag bikini empowering because when the guy is trying to rape her he pulls off her trousers and that's what gives her the power to kill him or some bullshit, and therefore it is Totally Feminist And Empowering. Kojima, feminist icon #never4get
Wild ARMs had no sexualized female characters (nor any damselled one, either...!)
I don't think so, you can enjoy fanservice and still be supportive of bettering the representation of women in media. Whether that makes you a hypocrite is another story.I have a question. I know by buying this stuff, I'm part of the problem. I don't at all reject the far too slowly changing landscape, and I get very excited about unique and deep female characters, so I definitely support those too. But look at me. I am willing to admit how much of a pervert I am. Like, I've bought every Senran Kagura game. I use the revealing outfits in Dragon's Dogma. I guess what I'm wondering can I still call myself a supporter and fighter for the advancement of respectful representation of women if I'm still contributing to the market containing the contrary?
Am I a total hypocrite for how angry I get about all the misogyny and sexism in gaming and the world? :(
As lead you mean? I haven't played WA3 is like 15 years, so I can't remember this detail, but WA1 had a female co-protagonist (Cecilia), and a female lead antagonist (Mother) as well as a female antagonist in the cast of "henchmen" villains (Lady Harken).In fact, didn't WA3 have both a female protagonist and female antagonist? That's quite the rarity as far as JRPGs go, unless I'm forgetting some really obvious examples...
I love JRPGs. I grew up on them and they're still my favorite genre and a huge chunk of what I play, but I can't help but think that they're a genre that's lost the most with the passing of time and advancement of technology. Not only does the cheesy dialogue, when not properly localized, lead to pretty extreme eyeroll moments when human beings have to actually read it and perform it out loud for directed cutscenes, but, well... call me a cynic, but I highly expect that a lot of those old games would've been just as voyeuristic with the camera as present-day ones are if the technology had existed at the time.
As lead you mean? I haven't played WA3 is like 15 years, so I can't remember this detail, but WA1 had a female co-protagonist (Cecilia), and a female lead antagonist (Mother) as well as a female antagonist in the cast of "henchmen" villains (Lady Harken).
A game with a female lead (not co- and not counting character-created) protagonist and a female lead antagonist is pretty rare. Portal maybe? Some Metroid games if you count Mother Brain. xD Dishonored 2 is close, but Corvo is also playable. For "humanoid" villains there's Silent Hill 3. But yeah, it's very uncommon.
In fact, didn't WA3 have both a female protagonist and female antagonist? That's quite the rarity as far as JRPGs go, unless I'm forgetting some really obvious examples...
Great post.I'm not a woman, so perhaps I shouldn't chime in about the point at hand given the title of the topic, but personally I tend to make a distinction between fan-service oriented games, like DOA and Senran Kagura, and other titles, like the much discussed FFXV and Phantom Pain. Regarding the former, they pander to a very specific niche, so people who buy those games know what they are getting into. That's not to say that they are not quite tasteless, imo. I think that there are better ways, more artistically fulfilling, if you will, to make fanservice games. A good example of that would be a game like Code: Realize, though very different in nature than those mentioned, being a visual novel.
Regarding the latter, they are much more problematic, for a number of reasons. First is the fact that fanservice doesn't really have much of a place in those kind of games. It is jarring to say the least. Secondly is the discrepancy in the way female and male characters are depicted, of course.
I don't think fanservice is in itself a problem (though it could be argued that it perpetuates certain stereotypes and views that may affect the most impressionable, younger audience, to whom games like DOA of course should not be sold) but rather the fact that, by creeping in places where you wouldn't expect it to be, it's being normalized to the point that people are now confusing it with proper characterization.
To add insult to injury, that girl is the daughter of your recently murdered colleague, and you're supposed to check on her and offer her protection from time to time, so you're the closest to a guardian she has.
Dang it, I was going to bring up KOTOR 2 with the Exile and Kreia. Technically they did canonise the Exile as female though? Kinda counts?As lead you mean? I haven't played WA3 is like 15 years, so I can't remember this detail, but WA1 had a female co-protagonist (Cecilia), and a female lead antagonist (Mother) as well as a female antagonist in the cast of "henchmen" villains (Lady Harken).
A game with a female lead (not co- and not counting character-created) protagonist and a female lead antagonist is pretty rare. Portal maybe? Some Metroid games if you count Mother Brain. xD Dishonored 2 is close, but Corvo is also playable. For "humanoid" villains there's Silent Hill 3. But yeah, it's very uncommon.
real classy - just ugh. And I thought it couldn't get worse. Does noone say no to Kojima?To add insult to injury, that girl is the daughter of your recently murdered colleague, and you're supposed to check on her and offer her protection from time to time, so you're the closest to a guardian she has.
Honestly I don't think the Boss was a complete fluke but I'm not that big of a fan anymore either. She's pretty good most of the time but she's still a lady wearing a weird skintight suit who exposes your chest to you very anticlimactically for a weird reason, I dunno.
Quiet is actually the worst because on top of being a walking sex doll, she's extremely contradictory in how she acts around you.Don't know enough about Quiet as I haven't played MGSV, but I've written defenses for B&B Corps contradictory depictions and I'm also one of the weirdos that was bummed out that Kojima wasn't allowed to use his prototype Boss idea with the shaking snake scar. Nothing I've seen of Quiet really suggests I would feel any different on an objective analysis level, even if subjectively probably feel Kojima didn't really communicate his "ashamed of words and deeds" idea in the best way. I talk more about those kinds of contradictory qualities (intentional or otherwise) having appeal in that "objectively bad character design" thread.
On the subject of female protagonists and antagonists, there's plenty of games like that but they unfortunately are not mainstream. Not that the JRPGs named above are mainstream either of course and I imagine some of what I'm thinking of sold more than those games, but they don't pertain to the discussion as much.
As an aside, my favorite antagonist ever is female precisely because of the contradictory qualities she exhibits (and it's 100% intentional with this one).
Hell, two of the three designs you called out in your post were done by women also, and the way that the collective has been moving I'd be more likely to speculate that it's where they wanted to go, not directorial meddling.
Like, we're outsiders observing a slidingOverton Windowsituation specifically in the context of sexualization in design and I'm really not sure what it's going to take to stop it, but the window isn't moving in the same direction in the west and with every passing year the disconnect gets wider and wider.
call me a cynic, but I highly expect that a lot of those old games would've been just as voyeuristic with the camera as present-day ones are if the technology had existed at the time.