World Map and the future of Final Fantasy [Discussion]

TaleSpun · Feb 5, 2018

I don't really get the nostalgia for the old world maps, but I also think XV patently failed as an open-world. I suppose I'd prefer a linear set of locations, maybe done as more contained zones, if they really want to.

Really though, I think there's too much focus on the framing and not the content. FF is usually trying to send the player on a journey, but that's usually not an experience an open-world game is equipped to facilitate. Those games establish an area and the player interacts with it over the course of the game. Maybe the world changes somewhat, but you don't really leave.

I'd rather go to interesting, varied locations with compelling reasons to go to them rather than exploring this one big world because it's there.

Warrior of Light · Feb 5, 2018

theofficefan99 said:
Er... you were the one that replied to me. Not the other way around. I was replying to Bazztek, who replied to my initial post, and then you made a comment on that.

Then we've simply had a misunderstanding, because the original discussion concerned overworld vs open world and I assumed you were part of it. That being said, dismissing people as "XV defenders" isn't exactly constructive.

My original argument still stands; Eos is far more exciting to explore than any overworld from previous titles. I am not talking about well designed locations that you can enter via the overworld. Only the overworld itself.

pleaseinsertdisctwo · Feb 5, 2018

Warrior of Light said:
Then we've simply had a misunderstanding, because the original discussion concerned overworld vs open world and I assumed you were part of it. That being said, dismissing people as "XV defenders" isn't exactly constructive.

From my experience people typically defend XV by being very misleading with their arguments, but true. Fair enough.

Just so you understand my overall position, I'm saying I'm very against open world design, because I have yet to see an open world game with as much environment variety aka distinct locations as a non-OW game (simply because that would be way, way, way, way, way too time-consuming and resource-intensive). That's fine for other series/games, but that is, quite frankly, very against FF IMO.

As for world maps, meh. I'm fine with or without them. Whether it's zone traversal, world maps, or picking locations through a list, I don't care. I just care about the specific locations. And I just care about not having an open world design.

Plywood · Feb 5, 2018

So long as it's done well and offers a feeling of exploration I don't care if it's zones or open world.

Xaszatm · Feb 5, 2018

I mean if we want to be technical, the game with the most environmental variations is FFIV. Now granted this is mostly thanks to pallete swaps but thanks to its "throw everything but the kitchen sink" approach to genre, it does have the largest variation of environments and dungeons in comparisons to the other FF games. Honestly I'd like to see this game remade more than FFVII simply because of all the environments they'd have to make for it to work.

Warrior of Light · Feb 5, 2018

theofficefan99 said:
From my experience people typically defend XV by being very misleading with their arguments, but true. Fair enough.

I'd like to think I have a balanced view of this game, as well as Final Fantasy XIII. They're both flawed, but the amount of hate they get from some people is ridiculous. I feel like we should be able to, in a mature way, be able to talk about what they did right. I am not opposed to talking about what they did wrong either, but I prefer to focus on the positives.

theofficefan99 said:
Just so you understand my overall position, I'm saying I'm very against open world design, because I have yet to see an open world game with as much environment variety aka distinct locations as a non-OW game (simply because that would be way, way, way, way, way too time-consuming and resource-intensive). That's fine for other series/games, but that is, quite frankly, very against FF IMO.

I'm not sure I'd call FFXV open world though. I think that if the theme of the game had been different (ie not "a fantasy based on reality"), the locations would also have offered more variety. The locations are beautiful, but they are also limited to the concept of mirroring the real world in terms of design. I think that's in part what draws the comparisons to other open world games, since they are mostly based on Earth. Many of the game's issues stem from it being rushed though, and at the same time having to live up to unrealistic expectations set by what essentially was vapourware.

In comparison, FFXIV manages to pull off large zones that rival the size of those in Eos but also offer far more variety.

DmckPower · Feb 5, 2018

FF fans conflate the old style overhead world maps of old games with something like modern open worlds..This is completely false.

The difficulty of execution involved ,and the game design that follows are vastly different in each case.

Old FF/JRPG overworld =/= Modern Open world even if it "looks like" its the same thing.

Bazztek · Feb 5, 2018

jett said:
When's the last time you played FF7? Let's revisit it.

How does FFXV even being to compare with this frankly literal explosion in creativity and variety?

See my post above. Have you even played XV? Or are your nostalgia goggles really on that tight?

Warrior of Light · Feb 5, 2018

DmckPower said:
FF fans conflate the old style overhead world maps of old games with something like modern open worlds..This is completely false.

No one here is trying to make the argument that they're the same, but the latter is a natural evolution of the former. Many gameplay elements in older games exist as solutions and workarounds of technical limitations, many of which are no longer an issue. Overworlds being one example. ATB being another.

TaleSpun · Feb 5, 2018

Bazztek said:
See my post above. Have you even played XV? Or are your nostalgia goggles really on that tight?

Most of the shots you posted come down to a difference in lighting and not much more.

We've got: grass, grass at night, buildings, buildings at night, sunsets, and snow.

Not actually all that varied or impressive.

cosmicblizzard · Feb 5, 2018

Man, I miss world maps. Even if there wasn't much to them, there was just something really cool about them.

DmckPower · Feb 5, 2018

jett said:
When's the last time you played FF7? Let's revisit it.

How does FFXV even being to compare with this frankly literal explosion in creativity and variety?

FF7 is GOAT but its sobering reality that these are nothing but static images.

The demands of creating these in photo-realistic fully 3D modern day graphics while implementing an ARPG battle system is infinitely more complicated.

FF7 Remake will be a devilishly difficult task that I am not sure is achievable unless SE changes the scope and style of the project.

jett · Feb 5, 2018

TaleSpun said:
Most of the shots you posted come down to a difference in lighting and not much more.

We've got: grass, grass at night, buildings, buildings at night, sunsets, and snow.

Not actually all that varied or impressive.

Yeah...I'm not sure what is that post supposed to prove.

DmckPower · Feb 5, 2018

Warrior of Light said:
No one here is trying to make the argument that they're the same, but the latter is a natural evolution of the former. Many gameplay elements in older games exist as solutions and workarounds of technical limitations, many of which are no longer an issue. Overworlds being one example. ATB being another.

I don't think modern open worlds are natural extensions of old overworlds tbh.

I mean,SE could right now choose between going for an open world or an overworld design for FF7R and the resulting game, depending on the design choice, would be vastly different.

TaleSpun said:
I don't really get the nostalgia for the old world maps, but I also think XV patently failed as an open-world. I suppose I'd prefer a linear set of locations, maybe done as more contained zones, if they really want to.

Really though, I think there's too much focus on the framing and not the content. FF is usually trying to send the player on a journey, but that's usually not an experience an open-world game is equipped to facilitate. Those games establish an area and the player interacts with it over the course of the game. Maybe the world changes somewhat, but you don't really leave.

I'd rather go to interesting, varied locations with compelling reasons to go to them rather than exploring this one big world because it's there.

I agree with this. I think designing a "wide linear' and varied experience is a better fit for FF than open worlds.

So like FFX ,but each link in the journey is much less constrained and more open in its level design.

Warrior of Light · Feb 5, 2018

jett said:
Yeah...I'm not sure what is that post supposed to prove.

The fact that developers are much more limited in terms of how much content they can produce and put in a game with modern AAA standards. That's not to say this is an excuse for not putting any effort into what is actually in the game, but there's a totally valid reason why the FFVII Remake will be released in parts and why a game like FFXV can't have a world map spanning several continents where every little piece of land is traversable like it would be on an overworld where it's not to proper scale.

Bazztek · Feb 5, 2018

theofficefan99 said:
MIDGAR ISN'T ANY BIGGER THAN ALTISSIA??????????????????

Have you even seen how big Altissia is or how small the areas you go to in Midgar are compared to what Altissia has? Midgar is literally a series of small square tiny maps for the most part, the CG render you see of Midgar is not the scale of the Midgar that is actually traversable in FF7.

theofficefan99 said:
You will constantly lie and gaslight and try to rewrite history in order to make XV look good

Please actually learn what the meaning of the words you are saying actually mean before you go off spouting them all the time. You can literally google and see that Midgar is a series of small square maps which is mostly made up of coridoors.

theofficefan99 said:
Altissia does not take 5-7 hours to go through.

I'm not sure why you thinking Midgar having a big size has anything to do with the amount of time you spend there, you spend a while in Midgar because there is different story content and the nature of being turn based with screen transitions makes it feel longer than it actually is, Midgar's traversable maps in 7 are not as big as you are pretending it is, time you spend somewhere is not the same thing as the size of the place being bigger, not sure why you think it would be.

theofficefan99 said:
I never said XIII's cities are cities with shops. But Eden is a city. Right? It is a place in XIII's world where people live/lived, and you visit it.

You are trying to pretend those places in 13 are functional cities/towns like older FFs or even towns at all when they function NOTHING like towns/cities in any FF because they aren't game cities/towns, narratively they may be but that has nothing to do with any game structure significance when they offer nothing as far as being a town/city does in any other FF.

Exentryk said:
The open world by itself isn't inherently a shitty design choice and I'm not talking about that (since you can do an open world well), but the other stuff:

- Travelling by car is so tedious. Takes forever to get in an out of the car.
- Car stuck on rails, and this guy constantly nagging to take photos.
- Flying and Landing the car is so tedious that you'll never bother using it.
- Enemies not necessarily telegraphing attacks was an intentional design decision, lol, coz realism.
- Magic items mess
- Hold button to attack mess, coz you know, Tabata is getting old
- Altissia exploration via boats feat. cutscenes
- No warping to anchor points outside of combat
- Chap 13 mess
- JARED!!!! etc.

And if Nomura does have any crappy design choices in the Remake, he'll get the same shit from me.

Anyway, this is going off topic.

I've addressed every single one of these points you made in a previous thread and you are objectively wrong on multiple aspects of that, it was pointed out that enemies have the same amount of telegraphing on their attacks as they ever did when Nomura was still director but you ignored that, you ignored that the animations being made realistic only applies to wild monsters, not to daemons, humanoid enemies, niflheim enemies or bosses, as you ignored literally any example of telegraphed attack I posted, hell even MHW has less telegraphing in its enemies attacks than XV does. You can tap to attack and this was explicitly pointed out to you, which you again ignored, as well as directional inputs, warpstrikes and weapon switching which are part of combos which you ignored, chapter 13s problem was already fixed, "JARRED!!!" is not even an argument you're making, just some random blanket statement, Magic is extremely useful and Comrades has great magic system, if you don't want to use the flying car then... don't use it? How is this a Tabata problem? And you can drive off road which for some reason you're still ignoring. And I highly doubt you would since KH has as much "telegraphing" on attacks as XV does, those Shinra grunts in the FF7 trailer from 2015 are as much telegraphed as the Niflheim Imperial Troops are in XV too.

TaleSpun said:
Not actually all that varied or impressive.

As opposed to three shots of Midgar at night just from different parts? How is Hammerhead the same thing as Lestallum? How is Wiz Chocobo Post the same thing as Galdin Quay? How is Insomnia the same thing as Tenebrae? How is Cartanica the same thing Ravatogh? How is Crestholm the same thing as Prarie Outpost? How is Taelpar Crag the same thing as Duscae grasslands? How is Niflheim snowy mountains the same thing as Leide's desert? How is the Vesperpool's marsh the same thing as Steyliff ruins? How is Meldacio hunter HQ the same thing as Cauthess Disc? How is Fociaugh Hollow the same thing as Gralea? How is Pitioss the same thing as Altissia? You don't need to bullshit just because you are wrong.

How is Tokyo based modern environment, Cuban based city, Venice based City, fantasy forest castle based environment, Military Fortress, Sewer, Volcano, Desert, Grassland, Snowy mountain, Meteor impact site, ancient ruins, war grounds, small run down settlements, Americana 60s service station etc how is that not varied?

TaleSpun · Feb 5, 2018

Warrior of Light said:
The fact that developers are much more limited in terms of how much content they can produce and put in a game with modern AAA standards. That's not to say this is an excuse for not putting any effort into what is actually in the game, but there's a totally valid reason why the FFVII Remake will be released in parts and why a game like FFXV can't have a world map spanning several continents where every little piece of land is traversable like it would be on an overworld where it's not to proper scale.

The smart solution here to not make the games so open and design to their strengths and not their weaknesses.

Edit: You're "objectively wrong" if you're leveling perfectly fair criticisms, but it's all good if you contort history and context in the games favor. My word. LOL

Vadara · Feb 5, 2018

TaleSpun said:
Most of the shots you posted come down to a difference in lighting and not much more.

We've got: grass, grass at night, buildings, buildings at night, sunsets, and snow.

Not actually all that varied or impressive.

If you don't think the fidelity and complexity of the assets/geometry in those XV shots isn't impressive...I dunno what to tell you.

TaleSpun · Feb 5, 2018

Vadara said:
If you don't think the fidelity and complexity of the assets/geometry in those XV shots isn't impressive...I dunno what to tell you.

I genuinely don't think FFXV was all that good looking the year it released, no.

Neoleo2143 · Feb 5, 2018

TaleSpun said:
The smart solution here to not make the games so open and design to their strengths and not their weaknesses.

In most any modern context (that isn't using prerendered backgrounds) it's going to be difficult to create all the content present in the Prerendered Backgrounds of FF7 because that game is very content dense.

TaleSpun · Feb 5, 2018

Neoleo2143 said:
In most any modern context it's going to be difficult to create all the content present in the Prerendered Backgrounds of FF7 because that game is very content dense.

Remaking the content to scale is a lateral move in that it's just as much trouble. I mean, they've split the game into parts. That's overthinking one problem until you just morph it into another. I'm not saying pre-render the assets again, I'm saying figuring out how to make the game as a single release should have been the first brainstorming session. Neither "prerender the assets again" nor "build it to scale" should've been on the white board.

badcrumble · Feb 5, 2018

an FF with a world as beautiful and varied as Horizon: Zero Dawn, with combat that is equally engaging, would be quite pleasant

FFXV sure as shit isn't that though

Exentryk · Feb 5, 2018

cosmicblizzard said:
Man, I miss world maps. Even if there wasn't much to them, there was just something really cool about them.

It adds context and helps picture how the world is connected. It really feels like journey going from one big area to another. Selecting areas from a list misses this aspect.

Bazztek said:
I've addressed every single one of these points

And I've said you don't understand the points.

Again, all off-topic.

Tabata had the choice of adding telegraphed attacks, but he said to his team to go for realistic attacks, and don't worry about telegraphing. I even posted examples of where this is clear, but not gonna do that again here. Regardless of what Nomura was planning, Tabata had the final decision, and that's the crappy design choice I'm talking about. It doesn't matter if some enemy attacks are telegraphed, there are still plenty that aren't and that's all as per Tabata's design choice
If Nomura released the game the same, he'd get the same comments from me.

Tapping the attack button doesn't change the animation loop (it still follows the same canned animation), and just the fact that you are suggesting that tapping is sufficient shows that you don't get it. Have you ever played an ARPG?

Chapter 13 and the whole story being a mess is all on Tabata, the director. This includes JARED, tedious mechanics... everything.

DmckPower · Feb 5, 2018

TaleSpun said:
Remaking the content to scale is a lateral move in that it's just as much trouble. I mean, they've split the game into parts. That's overthinking one problem until you just morph it into another. I'm not saying pre-render the assets again, I'm saying figuring out how to make the game as a single release should have been the first brainstorming session. Neither "prerender the assets again" nor "build it to scale" should've been on the white board.

I think SE should limit their visual ambitions to something like Persona 5 ,and focus on style.

They should use camera and perspective trickery to prop up their game ,but they think its below them now.

The games could still look really beautiful and have more locations.

Bazztek · Feb 5, 2018

jett said:
Yeah...I'm not sure what is that post supposed to prove.

That you don't actually know what you are trying to argue and also think that the examples you posted is somehow more varied than the examples I posted.

Here's what you posted

A small germanic village
A different small germanic village
small forest log village
small old Japan style village
A small village in the canyons
A small village in the snow
A slum in a modern area
A different part of the slum
A beach resort
A small village with a rocket
A chocobo ranch
A cave with crystalized formaions
An ice area
A location with crystalized rock formations and alien based roots
A craggy location spiraling upward

Here's what I posted
A small Americana style rundown settlement
A different small Americana style rundown settlement
A beach resort
A chocobo ranch
Ancient ruins tower
A large sewer
A Venice style city in the streets
A different part of the Venice style city
The ocean area while the Venice city is being destroyed
An advanced technology in an ancient ruin
A giant mountain turtle in a desert
An energy factory over a meteor
A train station
An ancient dungeon submerged under floating water
A marshy area
An americana based service station/diner
A pine forest with large arch rock formation
A lighthouse with a giant volcano with fantastical rock formations in the distance
The volcano innards up close
The peak of the mountain which is the corpse of a god
A fantastical floating medievil fantasy style grass covered enrivonment burning on fire
A tokyo based city area
An ancient ruin maze full of puzzles
A flying military fortress full of daemons
A ruined train stop in the center of a mech based town
The corpse of a goddess freezing the entire area
A rocky cave full of stallagtites
An overgrown part of the cave with a thunderbolt tree
A meteor impact site where a god is holding up a meteor
A cuban based town
Another part of the cuban based town
A snow area
Craggy rock crystalized formations from an astral war

Nah but apparently I only posted grass lands at different times of day.

TaleSpun · Feb 5, 2018

DmckPower said:
I think SE should limit their visual ambitions to something like Persona 5 ,and focus on style.

They should use camera and perspective trickery to prop up their game ,but they think its below them now.

The games could still look really beautiful and have more locations.

I definitely think with the way SE discusses these projects now, and the way we do in turn, there's an unspoken assumption that the games simply must be as cutting edge as possible. And that might be true, depending on the audience they're trying to sell to. But they should still be good games first.

julia crawford · Feb 5, 2018

I appreciate the emptiness and the travelling from place to place, on car or on foot, i love the quotidian feel of actually traversing a "real" length of space, but i miss the journeying fantasy that world maps had, it really did feel like you were visiting the whole world and i miss that a lot.

cosmicblizzard · Feb 5, 2018

Exentryk said:
It adds context and helps picture how the world is connected. It really feels like journey going from one big area to another. Selecting areas from a list misses this aspect.

Sure, but I also hate open worlds. I think I just like the simplicity and comparatively small scale.

pleaseinsertdisctwo · Feb 5, 2018

TaleSpun said:
Most of the shots you posted come down to a difference in lighting and not much more.

We've got: grass, grass at night, buildings, buildings at night, sunsets, and snow.

Not actually all that varied or impressive.

He/she literally uses the same location or room for 3-4 pictures.

pleaseinsertdisctwo · Feb 5, 2018

TaleSpun said:
I don't really get the nostalgia for the old world maps, but I also think XV patently failed as an open-world. I suppose I'd prefer a linear set of locations, maybe done as more contained zones, if they really want to.

Really though, I think there's too much focus on the framing and not the content. FF is usually trying to send the player on a journey, but that's usually not an experience an open-world game is equipped to facilitate. Those games establish an area and the player interacts with it over the course of the game. Maybe the world changes somewhat, but you don't really leave.

I'd rather go to interesting, varied locations with compelling reasons to go to them rather than exploring this one big world because it's there.

This is the best post in this thread.

Bazztek · Feb 5, 2018

Exentryk said:
And I've said you don't understand the points.

If you didn't want to go off topic then you shouldn't have done so in the first place, and I understood your points just fine. I countered them all, and you didn't understand what telegraphed attacks are, especially since I posted multiple examples of all kinds of enemies doing clearly telegraphed attacks but you ignored that just because, then you posted an outdated clip from Episode Duscae of a Behemoth doing a normal attack with its paw swinging, one of which literally looks no different than the attack it does when Nomura was in charge, and also which looks barely different than the kinds of attacks you see equal sized enemies doing in MHW, but somehow it's not telegraphed.

All humanoid enemies, daemons, Niflheim enemies, bosses all have clear telegraphed attacks, and regular wild monsters do too only they have more realistic movement in that, which is literally no different than the kind of movement you can expect for a "telegraphed" attack as you would see in MHW, you can't even admit you're wrong nor can you even admit you're taking his quote out of context and trying to apply it to everything when it would only apply to literally a subset of enemies in the game, most of whom don't even appear after chapter 8, as every enemy type after that has clearly telegraphed attacks as they are Daemons, humanoid enemies and bosses for the most part after that.

Tapping to attack allows you to do manual finishers which lets you end the attack loop manually as well as lets you restart from an opening attack manually, you have more control over your attack when you tap instead of holding, and tapping say 5 times to do a basic combo is the same amount of responsiveness as KH has when attacking too, and KH has less variety in its attacking to begin with.

Chapter 13s problems were only that it was too long, which is already addressed via the ring buff and making it quicker to move around and thus quicker to get through, as well as Chapter 13v2 with Gladio's combat. You keep mentioning Jared as a blanket statement, and there isn't any "tedious" gameplay mechanics, whatever is implemented works as intended and smoothly at that, weapon switching is smooth and fluid, magic is powerful and you can easily set it so it doesn't harm party members, you have different methods of defense from shields to dodge rolls to blink cancels to phase, different warps per weapon type and directionals too, you havn't actually presented an argument, just a blanket statement.

You're the one who brought up all this to begin with too, just because you had to get in your slight against XV by trying to shit on it for whatever reason, if you don't want to go off topic then don't steer it off topic to begin with.

Vadara said:
If you don't think the fidelity and complexity of the assets/geometry in those XV shots isn't impressive...I dunno what to tell you.

These people have made it their mission to downplay anything XV does exceptionally well.

pleaseinsertdisctwo · Feb 5, 2018

Bazztek said:
Have you even seen how big Altissia is or how small the areas you go to in Midgar are compared to what Altissia has? Midgar is literally a series of small square tiny maps for the most part, the CG render you see of Midgar is not the scale of the Midgar that is actually traversable in FF7.

Please actually learn what the meaning of the words you are saying actually mean before you go off spouting them all the time. You can literally google and see that Midgar is a series of small square maps which is mostly made up of coridoors.

I'm not sure why you thinking Midgar having a big size has anything to do with the amount of time you spend there, you spend a while in Midgar because there is different story content and the nature of being turn based with screen transitions makes it feel longer than it actually is, Midgar's traversable maps in 7 are not as big as you are pretending it is, time you spend somewhere is not the same thing as the size of the place being bigger, not sure why you think it would be.

You are trying to pretend those places in 13 are functional cities/towns like older FFs or even towns at all when they function NOTHING like towns/cities in any FF because they aren't game cities/towns, narratively they may be but that has nothing to do with any game structure significance when they offer nothing as far as being a town/city does in any other FF.

I've addressed every single one of these points you made in a previous thread and you are objectively wrong on multiple aspects of that, it was pointed out that enemies have the same amount of telegraphing on their attacks as they ever did when Nomura was still director but you ignored that, you ignored that the animations being made realistic only applies to wild monsters, not to daemons, humanoid enemies, niflheim enemies or bosses, as you ignored literally any example of telegraphed attack I posted, hell even MHW has less telegraphing in its enemies attacks than XV does. You can tap to attack and this was explicitly pointed out to you, which you again ignored, as well as directional inputs, warpstrikes and weapon switching which are part of combos which you ignored, chapter 13s problem was already fixed, "JARRED!!!" is not even an argument you're making, just some random blanket statement, Magic is extremely useful and Comrades has great magic system, if you don't want to use the flying car then... don't use it? How is this a Tabata problem? And you can drive off road which for some reason you're still ignoring. And I highly doubt you would since KH has as much "telegraphing" on attacks as XV does, those Shinra grunts in the FF7 trailer from 2015 are as much telegraphed as the Niflheim Imperial Troops are in XV too.

As opposed to three shots of Midgar at night just from different parts? How is Hammerhead the same thing as Lestallum? How is Wiz Chocobo Post the same thing as Galdin Quay? How is Insomnia the same thing as Tenebrae? How is Cartanica the same thing Ravatogh? How is Crestholm the same thing as Prarie Outpost? How is Taelpar Crag the same thing as Duscae grasslands? How is Niflheim snowy mountains the same thing as Leide's desert? How is the Vesperpool's marsh the same thing as Steyliff ruins? How is Meldacio hunter HQ the same thing as Cauthess Disc? How is Fociaugh Hollow the same thing as Gralea? How is Pitioss the same thing as Altissia? You don't need to bullshit just because you are wrong.

How is Tokyo based modern environment, Cuban based city, Venice based City, fantasy forest castle based environment, Military Fortress, Sewer, Volcano, Desert, Grassland, Snowy mountain, Meteor impact site, ancient ruins, war grounds, small run down settlements, Americana 60s service station etc how is that not varied?

That doesn't matter. Midgar takes far longer to go through, has more content, and more variety. Period.

You've gotten warned for gaslighting before.

And for the 2nd time, im stating that I'm talking about environment/location variety.

Just because you spend far more time and effort with your replies doesn't mean you're right. Your arguments never convince me because they are full of misleading info/revision/etc.

Seriously bye. Literally you will never admit that anything is even remotely wrong or debatable with XV everyone who ever replies to you is wasting their time

Bazztek · Feb 5, 2018

theofficefan99 said:
He/she literally uses the same location or room for 3-4 pictures.

Referr to https://www.resetera.com/threads/wo...-fantasy-discussion.21298/page-3#post-4203951

Apparently it's OK to post different parts of Midgar but not different parts of Altissia? Or to show different parts of other places in the game?

theofficefan99 said:
Midgar takes far longer to go through

That has nothing to do with the size of the area.

theofficefan99 said:
has more content, and more variety.

Hardly, especially when factoring in Altissia from Ep Ignis into everything.

theofficefan99 said:
And for the 2nd time, im stating that I'm talking about environment/location variety.

Ok and I posted multiple examples here https://www.resetera.com/threads/wo...-fantasy-discussion.21298/page-3#post-4203951 but apparently that isn't good enough, because you need to move the goalposts for some reason. You are literally denying reality right now.

Deleted member 721 · Feb 5, 2018

yeah while i like the open world take 1:1 stuff etc. To know how the world looks as a whole is something cool, with ff7 we already know, but ffxv is something i missed i dont have an idea where the game is located related to the world, it looks more like a regional story than a global one.

What people are saying is not that ffxv is smalll, but its a small region, while big in proportions. When you travel to the empire you are restricted, you cant see much of the world. And even then there's that city in the forest that is not in the game, and the world looks bigger than that. We will never know what lies in ffxv world as a whole.

FFXII suffer from the same thing but its a bigger region, but smaller maps compared to FFXV

And while we know all the world of FFX (small world)

23AC1BF1F2273A40F9FA0D40C44F330A5E4265A3

we never get to see how the places fits in the globe but its still better than nothing

FF7 world is quite big

Comparing to FFX there's way more points and a bigger map, The thing is FF7 depicts only partialy and in a deformed way the places and cities (3-10 small pre-rendered areas mostly). With ff7 remake and the interviews and this shot:

comparing to the old one

We know they want to make it way bigger than before, that while they are small before there's many places and to do in a realistc big way to all the world its something massive.

IMO all have flaws as i pointed, so thats why i said that the lost odyssey mixed take that Amirnol pointed i think it would be better. It pleases both worlds, who wants a bigger realistic world and who wants the world map and explore it to know the geography of the world.

pleaseinsertdisctwo · Feb 5, 2018

Bazztek said:
Referr to https://www.resetera.com/threads/wo...-fantasy-discussion.21298/page-3#post-4203951

Apparently it's OK to post different parts of Midgar but not different parts of Altissia? Or to show different parts of other places in the game?

That has nothing to do with the size of the area.

Hardly, especially when factoring in Altissia from Ep Ignis into everything.

Ok and I posted multiple examples here https://www.resetera.com/threads/wo...-fantasy-discussion.21298/page-3#post-4203951 but apparently that isn't good enough, because you need to move the goalposts for some reason. You are literally denying reality right now.

Midgar spans multiple locations. Altissia does not (well Leviathan portion kinda counts as a separate location I guess). Talking about main game here.

I am not talking about size I'm talking about location variety.

What projection.

Bazztek · Feb 5, 2018

Eylos said:
yeah while i like the open world take 1:1 stuff etc. To know how the world looks as a whole is something cool, with ff7 we already know, but ffxv is something i missed i dont have an idea where the game is located related to the world, it looks more like a regional story than a global one.

What people are saying is not that ffxv is smalll, but its a small region, while big in proportions. When you travel to the empire you are restricted, you cant see much of the world. And even then there's that city in the forest that is not in the game, and the world looks bigger than that. We will never know what lies in ffxv world as a whole.

FFXII suffer from the same thing but its a bigger region, but smaller maps compared to FFXV

And while we know all the world of FFX (small world)

we never get to see how the places fits in the globe but its still better than nothing

FF7 world is quite big

Comparing to FFX there's way more points and a bigger map, The thing is FF7 depicts only partialy and in a deformed way the places and cities (3-10 small pre-rendered areas mostly). With ff7 remake and the interviews and this shot:

comparing to the old one

We know they want to make it way bigger than before, that while they are small before there's many places and to do in a realistc big way to all the world its something massive.

IMO all have flaws as i pointed, so thats why i said that the lost odyssey mixed take that Amirnol pointed i think it would be better. It pleases both worlds, who wants a bigger realistic world and who wants the world map and explore it to know the geography of the world.

I already countered this reasoning here with this

FF7s world map absolutely looks smaller than FFXVs map.

Kromeo · Feb 5, 2018

Bazztek said:
Sounds like you're describing the world maps of FF1-9.

You hardly spend any time in the world maps in those, in XV it was half the game and it was one of the dullest things I've ever experienced

Deleted member 721 · Feb 5, 2018

Bazztek said:
I already countered this reasoning here with this

FF7s world map absolutely looks smaller than FFXVs map.

I said ff7 deforms proportions and scale, while ffxv map is big they portrait a part of a continent only in a realist scale (where you play) different from ff7 that's deformed and small but for a bigger region.

For example costa del sol is a city with 3 small pre-rendered maps,
Kalm is 1 pre-rendered map they all look weird to a real town

Gaia Lanzer · Feb 5, 2018

Koozek said:
Lol, someone played FF overworld music over Lost Odyssey footage:

Interesting. Y'know what, I'd love a new mainline FF that has two exploration modes. When you are on foot (or on chocobo), things are scaled to "sorta" realistic proportions. NOT to the ridiculous empty space as FFXV, but maybe more along the lines of Dragon Quest VIII and, to some extent, FFXII. But, when you get a ship, airship and submarine (yes, I want underwater exploration again, dammit!!), the vehicle exploration mode is scaled down, sorta like an old school map. The catch is, vehicles can only take off and land at certain "points". Ships and subs can only be entered and disembarked at ports, and airships can only land at "tether/anchor points" in fields (there'd be some sorta icon on the map so you can know where these tether/anchor points are).

BocoDragon · Feb 5, 2018

^ Gotta admit, the FFVII world map looks so small in 2018.

Almost to the point that I don't think this thread topic is that hard to solve. A couple of XII style zones could stand in for the grass area on any given continent. That's even accounting for the fact that the area would be larger with realistic proportions: it still doesn't need to be that large.

FFVII's world looks like two Nier Automatas stuck together even at a "realistic" world scale as Nier does.

Cheezeman3000 · Feb 5, 2018

I think maybe we're focusing on the wrong comparisons.

Comparing still images doesn't convey the way these locations were implemented and experienced. FFXV has a pretty good variety of dungeon locations, so by screenshots alone you can make it seem like it has a big variety of locales to experience.

In reality, most of those XV screenshots are completely meaningless. They're pretty environments, but they have no meaning to the game or the story. You mostly just pass through them. The places you spend the most story development time in are grassy/dirt areas, gas stations, and two towns. I'm talking 80%+ of the game.

In FFVII, you spend a fairly even amount of time experiencing story and lore and character development in different areas of a varied world. In terms of world building and development there's really no comparison. FF anything-before-XV wins hands-down.

Secretofmateria · Feb 5, 2018

I think realistically ff7 will have multiple open areas with loading screens, ff7 was supposed to take place all around gaia right?

Exentryk · Feb 5, 2018

Bazztek said:
You're the one who brought up all this to begin with too.

XV's world map being shitty and how it might influence a discussion about the future world map design is perfectly on topic.

I'll say it again (and say it more if it annoys you coz lol): I hope they don't make a shitty open world like XV going forward.

Bazztek · Feb 5, 2018

theofficefan99 said:
Midgar spans multiple locations

You mean there is just different sections of Midgar which are mostly just different small square maps with barely anything in them. The majority of Midgar all looks the samey "variety" wise for the most part too, most of it is either inside the factory with technological look or in the slums, like, Gralea has as much visual variety as Midgar by your logic since Zegnautus and Gralea itself are both locations in the game, if you aren't talking about the size of the map but variety, then as far as visual variety goes then Gralea has as much as Midgar does, so you still aren't making a compelling argument.

Exentryk · Feb 5, 2018

cosmicblizzard said:
Sure, but I also hate open worlds. I think I just like the simplicity and comparatively small scale.

Yeah, I was agreeing with you about liking the classic world map style.

Bazztek · Feb 5, 2018

Eylos said:
For example costa del sol is a city with 3 small pre-rendered maps

Costa Del Sol is a small resort by the beach, not a "city", which is about the same amount of stuff in it as Galdin Quay has which is also a resort by the beach.

Exentryk said:
XV's world map being shitty and how it might influence a discussion about the future world map design is perfectly on topic.

Except you have not brought up a single valid argument as to why, you've gone on random tangents that have nothing to do with the world map structure being open world, while also instead you've just been shitposting this entire time against Tabata for things unrelated to the open world and making blanket statements instead of actual arguments, try actually backing up your statements with valid arguments instead of spouting off on a "IT'S SHIT BCUZ I SED" tirade where it will just amount to "but it's my opinion!?" instead of an actual argument based on facts.

skeezx · Feb 5, 2018

well FF hasn't had a world map in two decades. and unless the industry drastically changes future mainline FFs will all be open world to varying degrees

Bazztek · Feb 5, 2018

Cheezeman3000 said:
but they have no meaning to the game or the story.

Absolutely wrong, they all have meaning because the story does develop across those locations, as does the players experience of the brotherhood of the main four characters which is a central element of the game, in fact most of those locations in 7 are just places you pass through too, so I don't even know what you are trying to argue here.

Gaia Lanzer · Feb 5, 2018

Exentryk said:
XV's world map being shitty and how it might influence a discussion about the future world map design is perfectly on topic.

I'll say it again (and say it more if it annoys you coz lol): I hope they don't make a shitty open world like XV going forward.

There was a lot of space in the first three regions of Lucis (Leide/Duscae/Cleigne) that could've been allotted to other places in the game. Lucis didn't have to be that BIG and you could've cut the fat considerably, halved the size of Lucis and not only would you still have a considerable amount of space that allows for the illusions that the world is big, but you could use that extra space to maybe make Cartanica, Tenebrae and some of outer Niflheim explorable.

I think the "illusion" that the world is massive is more important than having a world that IS massive (but is composed of mainly empty space). I noted Dragon Quest VIII, but from what I hear, Dragon Quest XI does a similar thing. I hear, in that case, it is zone to zone exploration, but still gives the feel that it is one big world you are traveling across. THIS is what I want for the non MMO-mainline series. I want that world spanning quest again, that adventure where you travel by land, air and sea and it thought the pacing of the story, it doesn't feel needlessly long or a boring travel, but like you have come so far on an epic adventure, through foreign lands, meeting strange and wonderful people while facing bizarre and hideous creatures.

BTW, theres are the maps of DQVIII and DQXI:

... and before some jaggoff says, "But the art style's more cartoony while FF is more realistic, nyah nyanana!!", I think it could be done right with some sacrifices. We don't need the most realistic as realistic of graphics (y'know, like the most realistic dents and scuffs on the most smallest of rocks on the field). And personally, one thing I wouldn't mind seeing sacrificed is "day/night transition". I like it, but I don't consider it vital, especially if you are making the game mainly MORE story driven. Say you want certain points of the story to take place at day, others at night. I think, like older FF games, story should dictate when day and night is, in comparison to the progression, than a have it just happen automatically. I know some will fight me for it, but I'm just saying my opinion. I don't mind it there, but if it should disappear, I ain't cryin'.

Zelas · Feb 5, 2018

jett said:
I don't think it would matter, competing sprite sizes and character proportions has been a thing in Final Fantasy before. Especially in FF7.

Besides, I didn't mean to literally have chibi characters in the game like NNK (FF8 does not do this), but rather an example of what I want the world map in FF7 to be, i.e. not some accurately-proportioned, fetch quest-addled, repetitive-assets-filled, samey traversal-heavy bore.

And NNK looks pretty AAA to me, both the original and the sequel. And it works. It works perfectly. It doesn't take me out. Instead, it makes me feel like I'm part of a massive world.

Being a thing before isn't justification. FF has moved on from that type of unrealistic representation. And I too wasn't referring to chibi characters. I'm talking about a world map period. The act of traversing and encountering monsters at that scale. Relative to what FF has become visually, it clashes. Some people prefer a more cohesive alternative.

World Map and the future of Final Fantasy [Discussion]

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