World Map and the future of Final Fantasy [Discussion]

[Deleted member 721]

So there's no thread about this subject here yet, then let's start one, about this game mechanic and the future of Final Fantasy series.

History:

(sp)

Classic World Map: FFI-FFIX

Click to shrink...

World map divided in areas: Final Fantasy Type-0

No World Maps, only areas with teleport: FFX, FFXII, FFXIII

Open World: FFXV

*FF Versus with Nomura, was suposed to have a world map

So what do you think will happen to FF7 remake, they will choose the "no world map" route and highwind only as a teleport machine, or they will go open world or even the return of world maps on a main FF game? FFXVI wil follow the open-world idea of FFXV?

What do you think?

 

[badcrumble]

I think it's entirely likely that the FFVII remake part 1 will take place solely in Midgar and use the train system for 'teleporting' you around the city. A more intentionally structured and linear/cinematic campaign will allow them to polish the battle system more, IMO, in preparation for part 2.

I think FFXV's problems are pretty separate from the fact that it's set in an open world - an open world could absolutely be more artistically interesting, feature more engaging combat, have better-structured progression and resource economy, etc. than we saw in FFXV.

But, that said, I don't really expect an open world that also features a realistically sized city in it *and* an entire globe to explore at the same time to happen in a game ever.

 

[mas8705]

Honestly, I can't say for certain. If anything else, I wouldn't mind FFVII's remake taking a page out of Kingdom Hearts and just make it where you just pick and choose which areas to go to rather than walking by foot. You could at the very least take a page out of FFX and set it up to where either the team can "unlock" special locations or use the map to pinpoint where they want to go in case if we're going to have special bosses or not.

I'd be all for an open world setting for the remake, but something about it being as vast as it was in XV made me wonder if we should dial it back a bit. Perhaps it is because of this that the game was going to be split in parts (with what badcrumble said about how Part 1 would take place all in Midgar and then Part 2 could be to figure out how to do the next part of the game).

 

[badcrumble]

I think FFXV's vastness wasn't a big deal so much as the fact that a lot of the world felt extremely samey and empty. Something like FFXII's world map/encounters, but with streaming in new areas instead of zoning between them, would be pretty cool with me.

 

[Deleted member 721]

yeah i think ff7 wil not be an open world because of the size of midgar.
I think they only have those other two options.
The problem with world map in ff7 would be realism, it would be hard to develop a realistic world map. world maps are always deformed with a character bigger than a house or the city, idk how nomura would solve this.

 

[LightEntite]

After playing an FF game devoid of a world map (FFXV), i see no reason for one

You can accomplish literally everything that a world map can except much more engaging

If FF7R has a world map, it'll be a waste IMO. I'd much rather experience the environments 1:1 instead of on a world map.


Midgar Zolom in the marshes, getting ambushed by Yuffie, WEAPON raid, Flying/Sailing/Submarining, ect.

 

[.exe]

I think FFXV's vastness wasn't a big deal so much as the fact that a lot of the world felt extremely samey and empty. Something like FFXII's world map/encounters, but with streaming in new areas instead of zoning between them, would be pretty cool with me.

Click to shrink...

Kinda like Monster Hunter World, Xenoblade Chronicles (2) or Dark Souls still have distinct areas/zones but they are interconnected? That's my preferred approach too. Playing through XII now and I really like that system, but it would play a lot better if it didn't hang on a load screen constantly.

I don't think overworld maps really transitioned well into the 3D era and feel really dated. Hope this will be gone in the remake, but since it's a throwback type of game I can see how it might remain (but I recall reading that they were treating it as a 'reimagined' FF7 rather than a straight remake -- could be my memory playing tricks too).

If they can't fill an open world with enough interesting things and it's just there for scale, it's not worth the effort either. Plus it just feels wildly out of place for FF7. They'd have to add a lot of extra stuff to an already complicated and contentious project.

Whatever they ended up doing, it was a tough choice and you just can't please everyone. It won't hold me back from getting the game anyway.

 

[Bazztek]

*FF Versus with Nomura, was suposed to have a world map

Click to shrink...

Originally prior to 2010 only was this the case where it had an SD map with a giant Noctis running on it, and it was only still an idea, never actually made, in 2010 onward Nomura said he wanted it to be open world and to be as seamless as possible with as little loading as possible, with it being so only some areas would require loads but the majority is seamless, and that was the main reason why the game was moved to 8th gen to achieve as much seamlessness as possible in the map.

As a result the entirity of the Lucis continent is fully seamless alongside any battle you get into and any dungeon or settlement you go through, and only going through different chapters/booting the game/fast travel or to Altissia/Niflheim continent require loads.

Clips from an interview with Tetsuya Nomura reveal Final Fantasy Versus XIII has an open world. Players will be able to explore it by using a car, which they can ride at any time.

Monsters walk around on the field and sometimes the will pop up if you are just hanging around. Another bullet point reads, "battles are basically seamless." Aside from load times when changing areas, the world is seamless too.

Click to shrink...

FF7R being split into multiple games really makes it impossible for it to be a single open world, it'll likely be seperated area maps, if at the very least it has something like Type-0 does for its map.

 

[jipewithin]

I hope it's something like FFXII or Xenoblade.

 

[Koozek]

So there's no thread about this subject here yet, then let's start one, about this game mechanic and the future of Final Fantasy series.

History:

(sp)

Classic World Map: FFI-FFIX


World map divided in areas: Final Fantasy Type-0

No World Maps, only areas with teleport: FFX, FFXII, FFXIII

Open World: FFXV

*FF Versus with Nomura, was suposed to have a world map

So what do you think will happen to FF7 remake, they will choose the "no world map" route and highwind only as a teleport machine, or they will go open world or even the return of world maps on a main FF game? FFXVI wil follow the open-world idea of FFXV?

What do you think?

Click to shrink...

I think both FFVIIR and FFXVI will be zones-based like FFXII/FFXIV, but maybe bigger areas with less loading screens between sections - basically like Witcher 3 which has several separate big open-world areas selectable from the map or by walking to the maps' edges. This honestly seems like the most feasible way to go for FF if they want to have a variety of areas spanning a whole "planet" or continent while giving a more believable sense of scale.

Though, who knows if the first part of FFVIIR will even have any part of the world map incorporated; maybe it's really just playing in Midgar.

 

[The Unsent]

I think they need to go for the fractured format like Witcher 3 or Dragon Age Inquisition. FF XV went open world of course and yet it didn't feel as big as earlier FF games because it was mostly set in one big highway. Ideally a FF game should feel like visiting several countries.

 

[Amirnol]

I love the World Map and would be stoked to see its return. I hope they treat it with respect for the FF7 Remake. Lost Odyssey had a cool implementation of it, and it could go even further than that.

 

[Koozek]

I think they need to go for the fractured format like Witcher 3 or Dragon Age Inquisition. FF XV went open world of course and yet it didn't feel as big as earlier FF games because it was mostly set in one big highway. Ideally a FF game should feel like visiting several countries.

Click to shrink...

Seeing your post I had to edit mine above. I guess, what I described as zones-based with FFXII/FFXIV, but bigger and more seamless, is basically Witcher 3 (several separate big open-world areas selectable from the map or by walking to the maps' edges).

 

[Bazztek]

I think they need to go for the fractured format like Witcher 3 or Dragon Age Inquisition. FF XV went open world of course and yet it didn't feel as big as earlier FF games because it was mostly set in one big highway. Ideally a FF game should feel like visiting several countries.

Click to shrink...

FF7s world map actually looks smaller than FFXV's full map, like the Lucis continent area looks about the same size as the east and west continent in 7 put toghether, and the dungeons in XV are much bigger than the ones in 7 too.

Click to shrink...

 

[Deleted member 721]

I love the World Map and would be stoked to see its return. I hope they treat it with respect for the FF7 Remake. Lost Odyssey had a cool implementation of it, and it could go even further than that.

Click to shrink...

I never played lost odyssey, how it is?

 

[Illusion]

I always felt like 80% of FFXV map was just empty and there was no reason to even track in it.

I would like to see open world continue because I think Final Fantasy is the kind of IP that is expected to be best of what the industry has to offer.

At this point its just a shell of its former self and needs a golden age/rennasaince.

 

[Warrior of Light]

I think FFXV's vastness wasn't a big deal so much as the fact that a lot of the world felt extremely samey and empty.

Click to shrink...

It was also beautiful to look at, and certainly had more to offer than the overworlds of the first nine games.

 

[Rotobit]

I feel like Type-0's map was only segmented due to PSP limitations, if they did something similar now on consoles it'd probably be much more like the classic games.

Personally I'm in the camp that'd like smaller open worlds, split up Dragon Age Inq style. This lets the environments be a lot more varied while keeping the sense of exploration intact.

This would be pretty clever in the case of FFVII Remake, for example, which already has a pretty divided world map. You'd have Midgar, then the area from Kalm to the Chocobo Farm, then the Junon area, etc. Once you get transportation you could just teleport between them, FFX style. It'd significantly change up some sidequests but they could still work in the Chocobo Breeding.

 

[Bazztek]

I always felt like 80% of FFXV map was just empty and there was no reason to even track in it.

Click to shrink...

Sounds like you're describing the world maps of FF1-9.

 

[AzureFlame]

Something like XII, no need to go full open world.

 

[Giever]

Honestly, I wish we could just get over it and have a World Map with a small character and deal with that minor silliness in the face of otherwise AAA-level assets & scope just because it avoids so many of the difficulties in trying to create an entire world (that is most likely very empty).

It's just a game. It's okay to see some of the seams if it makes for an overall better experience.

 

[Koozek]

I never played lost odyssey, how it is?

Click to shrink...

Lol, someone played FF overworld music over Lost Odyssey footage:

 

[Fou-Lu]

I really want a return to world maps in RPGs they convey that sense of vastness so much better than a small open world does.

 

[badcrumble]

It was also beautiful to look at, and certainly had more to offer than the overworlds of the first nine games.

Click to shrink...

In exchange for being much less interesting than the non-overworld sections of those games, sure.

 

[Keym]

All I know is that world maps are dead. At best, you'll get zones like in XIV.

 

[Warrior of Light]

In exchange for being much less interesting than the non-overworld sections of those games, sure.

Click to shrink...

It has a whole lot more to see. Observing the wildlife and taking in the beautiful scenery was nice. There's nothing like that in the first nine games, where the world map is just a glorified hub to get into towns. How are those more interesting?

Also, I'm in camp #Ivalice on this one.

 

[Keym]

Sounds like you're describing the world maps of FF1-9.

Click to shrink...

Not really, there were lots of things to find in those games, unlike XV. Type-0's world map is a better example of an "empty" world map.

 

[Bazztek]

In exchange for being much less interesting than the non-overworld sections of those games, sure.

Click to shrink...

Hardly, the dungeons alone are more interesting than what the older FFs offered, and the world in XV feels more lived in because you see the wildlife living out in the wild seamlessly with everything else you are doing.

 

[Warrior of Light]

Not really, there were lots of things to find in those games, unlike XV. Type-0's world map is a better example of an "empty" world map.

Click to shrink...

Like what?

Hardly, the dungeons alone are more interesting than what the older FFs offered.

Click to shrink...

Agreed. If there's anything FFXV undoubtedly did better than any game in the series before it, it would be those amazing dungeons.

 

[Deleted member 721]

Lol, someone played FF overworld music over Lost Odyssey footage:

Click to shrink...

looks like a traditional world map, but i guess you enter in an area when you land?

 

[Keym]

Like what?

Click to shrink...

Optional dungeons, summons, secret characters, extra jobs, hidden storylines. List goes on.

In XV, you get... more hunts and frogs. Yay.

 

[Tyaren]

For me FFXIII's and FFXV's open areas were the parts of each game that I most enjoyed and especially FFXV's open world is imo the best part of the game. The second very linear half is frankly terrible and I wouldn't want to ever play through that again. So I hope that FF will have open worlds going forward, but good ones. There's definitely a lot to improve. Give it more life, make it more interesting and cut the fetch quests and monster hunts, let's have real quests that tell you more about the characters, world and its lore. That was something almost completely absent in FFXV as well. There's a huge mountain with weird glowing horns/tentacles, tell me what that is. Apparently it is an important place of FFXV's lore.

 

[Vadara]

I always felt like 80% of FFXV map was just empty and there was no reason to even track in it.

I would like to see open world continue because I think Final Fantasy is the kind of IP that is expected to be best of what the industry has to offer.

At this point its just a shell of its former self and needs a golden age/rennasaince.

Click to shrink...

It's impossible to fill an open world totally with "meaningful content". Smart open world games like Just Cause 2 and Breath of the Wild embrace this and are willing to accept that some places are just going to be "empty space".

 

[Hayeya]

Nino kuni perfected the classical FF world map, i would like something like that in FF16 or something like DQ8.

The only thing that kept me going in FXV is the huge map and sence of discovery, i would not mind something like it in FF7R. Although i believe they will do a fragmented map.

 

[BocoDragon]

I think making it full "open world" in the style of XV is an impossibility: 99% of FFVII's content was in town/dungeon, and just translating that to modern fidelity alone is an immense task. Shifting deep gameplay systems to the map would bloat the game beyond measure. After all, delivering XV's open world was the totality of that game.

FFXII-style zones could work as stand-ins for the open field sections of continent. You'd have to suspend disbelief that you are actually crossing continents but... it rather worked okay for XII.

 

[mute]

DQXI is very close to being the best of both worlds. I hope it is like that with just a bit more places to go when riding in vehicles.

 

[Koozek]

looks like a traditional world map, but i guess you enter in an area when you land?

Click to shrink...

It's a mix from what I remember. You select places from a list that gets expanded while you're progressing in the story and later when you get the airship and ship you can find new places that get added to your list, but correct me if i'm wrong, Amirnol.

 

[Illusion]

It's impossible to fill an open world totally with "meaningful content". Smart open world games like Just Cause 2 and Breath of the Wild embrace this and are willing to accept that some places are just going to be "empty space".

Click to shrink...

I think it's more how they decide to utilize the space if anything then fill it.

I don't care if a game world is big, I care if it's open world and a well filled contained space.

If I could get a game a tenth the size of XV with the same amount of content ill be just as happy.

 

[Bazztek]

Not really, there were lots of things to find in those games, unlike XV. Type-0's world map is a better example of an "empty" world map.

Click to shrink...

There's really nothing in the overworlds in older FFs at all, anything important you are doing is in area maps, and those area maps are still smaller than the equivalent areas in XV.

Click to shrink...

Click to shrink...

Optional dungeons, summons, secret characters, extra jobs, hidden storylines. List goes on.

In XV, you get... more hunts and frogs. Yay.

Click to shrink...

There's optional dungeons, bosses, rare weapons, sidequests with different story content like the On Tour quests or Cindy's questline revealing more about her past each chapter, and the other sidequests like Vyv's reveals more about the history of the world and you taken to places to do with the Astral war.

Getting the Kupo Nuts for the Moogle in exchange for Items in FF9 is literally no different than getting the Gem stones for Dino in exchange for reward either. Those optional summons in older FFs are just equated to getting a stronger spell since that's all summons were in those FFs.

 

[wtd2009]

I wish they'd go the route of large zones. That seems to be the perfect way of soing things IMO. Make the maps meaningful and unique. If they're full of exploration and a sense of scale and I don't care if it's open world at that point.

If they wanted to link it through a world map, then no no kuni did am excellent version of this.

My expectations are pretty high after the likes of NNK and xenoblade. There's really no excuse at this point for whatever format they go with not to be well executed.

 

[Orion]

Playing FFIX recently reminded me how much I miss the old school world map. I don't expect to ever see it return in that form again, but I kinda hate that it was sacrificed for the sake of making things feel more realistic.

It might sound silly, but for some reason it really bugs me when a map has blurry edges. I really like being able to see a game's entire world, having everything clearly laid out on a grand scale. I mean... I have a general idea of XV's geography, but I feel like I don't have a completely clear view of what lies beyond Lucis. Is it just the Niflheim continent and Altissia or is there more? XIII was the worst with this though. Gran Pulse looks massive but it feels like you only get to explore a tiny fraction of it. Cocoon seemed beautiful and diverse but I barely had any sense of where I was or how much I was seeing as I got shuffled from one location to the next. X at least gave me a picture of the world map and a clear view of how everything connected. XII had a drawn map as well but the lands run off the edge of the map, implying that there's much more out there. I hate that lol. I guess what I'm getting at is that I like to feel like I've seen everything a game's world has to offer, and the old world map style did the best job of giving me that illusion.

 

[ThisThingIsUseful]

After playing an FF game devoid of a world map (FFXV), i see no reason for one

You can accomplish literally everything that a world map can except much more engaging

If FF7R has a world map, it'll be a waste IMO. I'd much rather experience the environments 1:1 instead of on a world map.


Midgar Zolom in the marshes, getting ambushed by Yuffie, WEAPON raid, Flying/Sailing/Submarining, ect.

Click to shrink...

I've thought about that. I consider a world map an open-world of sorts, but scaled down since technology at the time didn't allow you to traverse a living breathing world where you could seamlessly travel in and out of towns and battle enemies. So back then, you could travel to some little spot on the map representing a town, and then it would load the town once you moved your character on top of it.

If you still wanted a turn-based system, you could either have enemies walking around that you could engage, or you could simply have random battles still. But yeah, while I certainly wouldn't complain with an world map, you could technically do the same thing with an open-world with little difference besides perspective.

 

[Keym]

There's really nothing in the overworlds in older FFs at all, anything important you are doing is in area maps, and those area maps are still smaller than the equivalent areas in XV.





There's optional dungeons, bosses, rare weapons, sidequests with different story content like the On Tour quests or Cindy's questline revealing more about her past each chapter, and the other sidequests like Vyv's reveals more about the history of the world and you taken to places to do with the Astral war.

Getting the Kupo Nuts for the Moogle in exchange for Items in FF9 is literally no different than getting the Gem stones for Dino in exchange for reward either. Those optional summons in older FFs are just equated to getting a stronger spell since that's all summons were in those FFs.

Click to shrink...

I think you're taking the definition of an "empty world map" a tad bit literally. And come on, you're not going to compare Dino's sidequest with that moogle one. No one remembers IX for that sidequest. If anything, you could compare it to the Zodiac coins one, which was both awesome and rewarding. You know XV's sidequests are not the best in the series, but it's kind of to be expected of an open world game like that (still better than XIII's though!).

 

[Death Penalty]

As much crap as I give FFXV, a far more realized and interesting version of its setup for the "world map" is I believe the best way to go and its setup refined is the future. XV wasn't bad because it was open world, its open world was bad because it was bad. The sense of scale and wonder that it offered, however, is not to be discounted and with more varied and interesting areas and a more meaningful reason to explore (more optional content would do wonders here) it just makes sense. It brought a lot of positives to the series, which I'll try to list.

1. Great sense of scale. Even as someone who was not liking the game, seeing the meteor in the distance surrounded by crystal and magic took my breath away. It's not just a skybox, either, you can actually go there and when you do it feels important.

2. Monsters came to life. I think because of its open take on the world map, XV had an unparalleled sense of a monster's imposing size and majestic beauty. A lot of them even acted in appropriate ways, though I'd have liked to see this system fleshed out a bit more than it was.

3. When there actually was something to find on the world map, like a dungeon or a royal tomb, it felt fantastic. The opportunities for exploration were disappointingly sparse, but when I found something meaningful in the wilderness it always brought a smile to my face.

The shortcomings of XV's open world, like bland environments, flawed travel systems, and lots of meaningless space I think can be fixed by iteration and evolution of the new format. It would be hasty to ditch it, even if XV wasn't the best initial showcase for it.

 

[Cheezeman3000]

I don't understand why the FF devs think they can do a fully featured open world map, when they have never been able to do that in the past. They need to focus on creating really memorable destinations. The journey between those destinations can be a more stylistic representation of traveling the world without taking away from the immersion at all.

For example, FFXV's open world honestly felt smaller than FFVII's world map. It wasn't actually smaller at all, but the feeling I got while playing it did not give me as much of a sense of a large world I was exploring.

Type-0 has the right idea actually, as much as I dislike that game. I would do that setup but with no loading screens, a more rounded (global) perspective and have highly detailed chibi cities and dungeons to go to. People would love it.

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

I don't care, I just never, ever, ever want them to make an open world FF ever again. Please.

And like the poster before me said, FFXV actually felt very small.

 

[Bazztek]

I think you're taking the definition of an "empty world map" a tad bit literally. And come on, you're not going to compare Dino's sidequest with that moogle one. No one remembers IX for that sidequest. If anything, you could compare it to the Zodiac coins one, which was both awesome and rewarding. You know XV's sidequests are not the best in the series, but it's kind of to be expected of an open world game like that (still better than XIII's though!).

Click to shrink...

I'm just comparing like for like, item exchange sidequests in XV are really nothing that the older FFs didn't do too, and they were not any more compelling or worthwhile in older FFs, same goes for optional dungeons in those FFs still pailing in comparison to optional dungeons in XV. The Coin sidequest in 9 is pretty much the same exact thing as the Scraps of Mystery map sidequest in XV, trying to downplay the sidequests in XV just because it's open world and in oder to prop up the older FFs doesn't really make the older FFs better examples of sidequests.

And like the poster before me said, FFXV actually felt very small.

Click to shrink...

Referr to https://www.resetera.com/threads/wo...-final-fantasy-discussion.21298/#post-4195785

Just compare the dungeon sizes in FF7 for example to the dungeons sizes of equivalent themed areas in XV and XV outclasses them.

 

[Warrior of Light]

Optional dungeons, summons, secret characters, extra jobs, hidden storylines. List goes on.

Click to shrink...

Eh, for starters I'm pretty sure FFXV has optional dungeons too (and the dungeons in this game is vastly superior to anything that came before it). Additional summons can be nice, but they hardly make the game better. Especially not in a game that actually tries to tie them to the actual plot, to make them relevant to the lore as opposed to just fan service. I think FFX is the only game that managed to make obtaining optional summons interesting, plot wise. Secret characters? No, thanks. That is something that should remain a thing of the past. Do you really think Vincent and Yuffie should be optional in FFVII Remake? I certainly don't. Most optional characters in the older games were just not relevant enough to the plot. If they are relevant, they shouldn't be optional. Extra jobs? That's pretty game specific and doesn't really hold up as a counter argument against FFXV. You can't find new jobs in FFIX either. Hidden storylines? Not sure what you're referring to with this one. Optional scenes that add to the character development of your party members? FFXV has those.

Overall, the world maps in the first nine games are barren and boring to look at. If you run around long enough you might find some random useful item. Ok. At least Eos is pretty and actually feels alive. And you might find useful items there too, in the optional dungeons. I'm not saying FFXV is perfect, but its world is just far more more interesting to explore than any overworld from the first nine games. Same goes for Ivalice and Eorzea.

It's impossible to fill an open world totally with "meaningful content".

Click to shrink...

Also, this. There is no way you could remake a game like FFVI and make a 1:1 scale world outside of the towns that's filled with more stuff to see and do than Eos.

 

[Exentryk]

I'd actually be fine with an overworld like No no Kuni. But I don't think that's going to happen for AAA FFs going forward. After the mess that was FFXV, I just hope they go for multiple large zones rather than one huge open world.

Click to shrink...

 

[BreakAtmo]

My hope is that S-E uses the fact that they're making FF7R into multiple games to actually do the biggest open world ever. Do the whole world, with each continent being about as big as Witcher 3, with the first game covering the first continent. Chocobos would be pretty much required.

Alternatively, do a detailed world map depicting the world from high above, with the characters riding their several options for more your avatar should appear - abstract models of the main character in remake fidelity or their original low-poly models as a fun extra, or actually depict the party riding their chocobos in 1:1 scale, where they would be really really small and movement time would be sped up by a factor of a hundred.