Lonestar

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Oct 25, 2017
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Also from what was implied from the comments in their OZT conference call (and Bastion's reveals to Val), I don't think many of the other parties really knew what Bastion was doing / planning.

I wouldn't be surprised if his entire pitch to them was an intentionally vague "Mutants numbers are increasing and you need a means to respond if things go south. I'm building a next generation of Sentinel so join me so we can protect humans." The end result was still no less awful though
I'm not even 100% sure the people that got turned into the sentinels, did so willingly/knowingly. The process seems to be "go in a green tank of goo" and ends with "you won't remember you went through that process." That feels ripe for grabbing people and doing it to them. This is one dark fucking story, if that is the case.
 

Lmo2017

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,153
To the east of Parts Unknown...
I'm not even 100% sure the people that got turned into the sentinels, did so willingly/knowingly. The process seems to be "go in a green tank of goo" and ends with "you won't remember you went through that process." That feels ripe for grabbing people and doing it to them. This is one dark fucking story, if that is the case.

Totally, there's obviously some true believers that will dunk themselves for the racist... but this is obviously some body snatchers stuff. You can't tell me Bastion's entire neighborhood volunteered.
 

Lonestar

Roll Tahd, Pawl
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Oct 25, 2017
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Former showrunner said some were turned against their will, like the journalist.
Woof...

I know I was feeling very odd when they were getting sliced and diced in the previous episode. Are they dead/zombies at this point, held together by programming/techno virus?

It makes me think back on that Edgar Wright movie "The Worlds End"
 

AMAGON

Prominent Member
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,101
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Here is something that is throwing me watching the episode but where was it reference that they had 12/24 hours until Magneto is destroying the world unless I missed something?
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,637
Greater Vancouver
I'm not even 100% sure the people that got turned into the sentinels, did so willingly/knowingly. The process seems to be "go in a green tank of goo" and ends with "you won't remember you went through that process." That feels ripe for grabbing people and doing it to them. This is one dark fucking story, if that is the case.
I mean that's the metaphor right there. As much as OZT is literally weaponizing bigotry, even so-called allies can end up being indoctrinated into hateful rhetoric/actions without malicious intent. Not every bigot knows they're turning into one.
 

Lonestar

Roll Tahd, Pawl
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Oct 25, 2017
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Here is something that is throwing me watching the episode but where was it reference that they had 12/24 hours until Magneto is destroying the world unless I missed something?
They mentioned it early in the episode, between each other, but there was no scene of anyone figuring out that was going to happen. It's just a known fact, as presented.
 

Volimar

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Oct 25, 2017
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Yeah that put me a bit off tilt right from the start trying to figure out what Jean meant.
 

Volimar

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Oct 25, 2017
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Yeah the pacing is my one real criticism. Needed a few more episodes to get to where we are.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,707
To be fair, Magneto is literally destroying the planet. Humans and mutants alike are about to die en masse on top of the Earth being permanently fucked. If Magneto had just created New Genosha and made an offer for mutants to join him, they wouldn't even be bothering with him right now if at all. They're literally just there to ask him (or force him) to unfuck the Earth's magnetic fields.
That's part of the problem. Magneto goes from fighting for mutants, to being in the process of killing countless mutants. He's doing this purely because the script say the X-Men and Magneto need to fight, not because it's been his arc.
 

Omegasquash

Member
Oct 31, 2017
6,369
I don't really get all the chatter about Magneto. He clearly states in the second episode that he desperately wants to try another way... so don't force his hand. That's exactly what happens though. On top of that he has to relive some horrifying memories and be tortured by Bastion.

The fact that Val was present for Magneto saying that was likely a catalyst, too. He had no reason to trust her after she saw him show restraint. She might have felt genuine guilt, but had she not been working with Bastion the whole time, or had told him that Bastion/Sinister were up to some shit, that Genosha would have been avoided.

Sorry as she was, she still had her share of blood on her hands. So her saying she was sorry wasn't anything but making herself feel better. She even had the audacity to ask HIM to say something.
 

Sibersk Esto

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Oct 25, 2017
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being traumatized and guilt ridden doesn't turn you into a mass murderer. if you're gonna have a character fall so deep into grief that they are willing to terminate all life on the planet, you gotta show that journey more than its been shown here.

Someone with Magneto's powers, outlook on humanity and resources might.

To be clear I'm in agreement that the show's pacing has definitely robbed some developments of the impact they could've had, I've been banging that drum for a few episodes. I just don't think Magneto going "fuck the humans, let em all die while we make our own new world" is a big betrayal of his character.

What we definitely needed was scenes of Magneto transporting willing mutants to Asteroid M because right now it looks like he was prepared to restart a civilization with just the x-men
 

JusDoIt

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Oct 25, 2017
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Someone with Magneto's powers, outlook on humanity and resources might.

To be clear I'm in agreement that the show's pacing has definitely robbed some developments of the impact they could've had, I've been banging that drum for a few episodes. I just don't think Magneto going "fuck the humans, let em all die while we make our own new world" is a big betrayal of his character.

it's not just fuck the humans, but fuck most of the mutants as well. millions of mutants will die along with most plants and animals. again, if you want to portray him as being that inhumanly broken now, you have to really render that for it to land. it's more than just bad pacing.
 

Bizazedo

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Oct 28, 2017
2,822
Looking back on it, I don't understand why the former showrunner tried to fit all these storylines into 10 episodes. We *all* noticed the rapid pacing and were worried about it, but the pressure / weight running through all of these things really seems to be causing everything to buckle now.

I'm wondering at this point if we see Onslaught in the next episode or if it's just hinted at....and if it is, that's, what, four MAJOR story arcs from the 90s in one season? Five?
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,450
So Magneto wants to kill billions cause thousands were killed.

What he was reacting to was that thousands would be killed so presumably whatever he did to screw up the magnetic poles wouldn't cause immediate extinction? Or were they just talking about the people in planes and hospitals that died? I can't believe nobody bothered to mention "hey there are still like thousands and thousands of mutants down there" so my no-prize explanation is that it wouldn't be immediate worldwide extinction, because otherwise why the hell would Magneto do that and how the heck is he going to get more oxygen for Avalon?

Maybe it's intentional but Magneto is right here. Deal with Bastion first, Charles, then we'll see about fixing everything because he just freaking saved all the mutants from being exterminated by a legion of undercover Sentinels.

Making him a bwah ha ha villain who is fine with complete genocide of everyone including mutants is a step too far, and really dumb. Otherwise he's taking a perfectly understandable position. Roberto as well.
 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,662
That's part of the problem. Magneto goes from fighting for mutants, to being in the process of killing countless mutants. He's doing this purely because the script say the X-Men and Magneto need to fight, not because it's been his arc.
And that's a fair criticism but that's exactly why you can't frame that as the X-Men are only there to save humanity against the only guy who is fighting back.
 

Lifejumper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,804
Looking back on it, I don't understand why the former showrunner tried to fit all these storylines into 10 episodes. We *all* noticed the rapid pacing and were worried about it, but the pressure / weight running through all of these things causes really seems to be causing everything to buckle now.
Dunno if everything is imploding. The majority outside of Era seems to love the episode. It's sitting at a 9.6 on IMDB, just a bit lower than episode 5.

Not a popular opinion in this thread, but the pacing is part of the charm for me. Its take it or leave it at this point, I don't see them slowing down in future seasons. Its part of its DNA.

edit: also someone should edit in the Not Like Us beat when Magneto is spittin.
 

Lump

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
16,326
Yeah. Didn't seem like a lethal blow.

Logan is not that dumb.

If we're being fair, since the teams were splitting into two, Logan could have raised his hand during the team selection process and said "Strategically speaking, I probably should not join the one team in the fight against the mutant that commands metal, but I do believe I can quite well assist with the other team against Bastion if and when some sentinels appear."
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,707
And that's a fair criticism but that's exactly why you can't frame that as the X-Men are only there to save humanity against the only guy who is fighting back.
When I said they were trying to save the ones that want them dead, I was referring to the Prime Sentinels and not humanity as a whole. They should be looking for a way to kill them and not restore their free will so the super powered bigots become more unpredictable. That extends to Magneto being the only one currently that's really fighting back, it's just that he's going literal scorched Earth.
 

Onyxxx

Member
Jun 21, 2022
1,608
There has been a mixed reception to this episode, with some liking it and others hating it. Some forum and social media users have criticized the story's pacing, inconsistent plot points, character assassination, and lack of character development for non-lead characters.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,450
I have to stop thinking about the plot holes.

But did Bastion have a plan keeping Magneto alive other than plot purposes and ego? He's basically the one mutant that can destroy his plan.

Also was Magneto always this powerful that he can basically destroy the world/create a worldwide EMP that disables all but Bastion? If so, where the heck was this when they were fighting kaiju Sentinel?
 

Mandos

Member
Nov 27, 2017
31,512
I enjoyed it. Can't believe they went with the Wolverine extraction, that's gonna be major next season
I still have most or all of the Onslaught comics, it's really the only time I was going to the comic store every week to buy them all as the saga unfolded

I remember people talking about what happened to Wolverine and I was all :o :o :o but never read that comic


But can you really do Onslaught without Franklin Richards? I suppose they can easily use a different character though
We just had Doom in a full speaking role last week so I wouldn't rule them out having the ok to use him. Definitely feels like they're setting up the return of Apocalypse as the A-plot next season and Onslaught as the B plot.
 

Lonestar

Roll Tahd, Pawl
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Oct 25, 2017
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To add to the pacing problems: I completely missed why Rogue was unconscious for such a long time, that they needed a scene where Wolverine and Nightcrawler had to fight Sentinels to protect her while she was out.

It's been forever since I saw the original series, but I don't remember it feeling like they raced through the phoenix saga or the bits with the Shi'ar/DKen/Crystal story. While this series they really wanted to race to Asteroid M and that particular Magneto story (which I assume to be leading into Onslaught for next season).

I enjoyed it. Can't believe they went with the Wolverine extraction, that's gonna be major next season

We just had Doom in a full speaking role last week so I wouldn't rule them out having the ok to use him. Definitely feels like they're setting up the return of Apocalypse as the A-plot next season and Onslaught as the B plot.

I can't imagine a reason they couldn't include anyone in Marvel's catalogue. They've had Hulk, Spider-Man and Doom, that's pretty much the gamut of characters that have been locked to Sony/Fox/Universal. Was there anyone else out there they can't use (though maybe that was film rights and not animation rights)
 

OmniGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,800
Wouldn't Jean and Cable be unable to use their powers on each other due to genetics?!

At first, when Cable was a baby, his and Jean's telekinesis would repel each other....



Eventually Scott and Jean end up raising him in the future, and when they return, Jean remarks that their psychic powers are more in sync now....


And since they they've gone on to combine or Jean has augmented Cable's powers various times...

 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,662
When I said they were trying to save the ones that want them dead, I was referring to the Prime Sentinels and not humanity as a whole. They should be looking for a way to kill them and not restore their free will so the super powered bigots become more unpredictable. That extends to Magneto being the only one currently that's really fighting back, it's just that he's going literal scorched Earth.
A) Only some of the Prime Sentinels (probably a minority after seeing the numbers) were willingly turned in to them. B) Maybe I misunderstood, but the X-Mens' mission was two-pronged. They needed to get Magneto to fix the electromagnetic fields because otherwise the whole Earth is fucked, but doing so would reactivate the Prime Sentinels. The Gold team's mission was to stop Bastion and thus the Prime Sentinels before the fields were fixed because they know they couldn't handle them if they were all reactivated, which is why Cyclops stopped Prof X when he had control of Magneto.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,450
To add to the pacing problems: I completely missed why Rogue was unconscious for such a long time, that they needed a scene where Wolverine and Nightcrawler had to fight Sentinels to protect her while she was out.

It's been forever since I saw the original series, but I don't remember it feeling like they raced through the phoenix saga or the bits with the Shi'ar/DKen/Crystal story. While this series they really wanted to race to Asteroid M and that particular Magneto story (which I assume to be leading into Onslaught for next season).

The original series was a different beast, though. You could do a five parter if you have 20+ episodes to work with, not so much on a shorter, tighter season. Were the first two seasons of '97 ordered at the same time or did they go through season 1 thinking that might be all they get?
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,707
A) Only some of the Prime Sentinels (probably a minority after seeing the numbers) were willingly turned in to them. B) Maybe I misunderstood, but the X-Mens' mission was two-pronged. They needed to get Magneto to fix the electromagnetic fields because otherwise the whole Earth is fucked, but doing so would reactivate the Prime Sentinels. The Gold team's mission was to stop Bastion and thus the Prime Sentinels before the fields were fixed because they know they couldn't handle them if they were all reactivated, which is why Cyclops stopped Prof X when he had control of Magneto.
Nothing in the text suggests a majority of them were turned unwillingly. The one person we see undergoing the procedure is a willing participant, we find out this episode that Bastion's mother was a bigot and likely underwent the procedure willingly, and Trask almost certainly did before getting cold feet after Genosha. Bastion's entire hometown being converted obviously had unwilling participants.

The only one we know for 100% was turned against their will is Trish, and that's only because the show runner said so. The text absolutely can support her willingly doing this.
 

Whitemex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,741
Chicago
Ok ok... I just started the episode and I have to pause because the X-Men movie reference about the costume really sent me. What a good ass line
 

Shang

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Oct 27, 2017
1,736
I knew I recognized that cycle!

kk1rK5R.jpeg
s-l1200.jpg
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,450
Ok ok... I just started the episode and I have to pause because the X-Men movie reference about the costume really sent me. What a good ass line

It was... but why did he have to change costumes? Just to match up with everyone else? And they already had this huge custom made costume for him, when everyone else had to go put on their old pajamas?

Don't get me wrong, if this is the reason we're getting a new toy of this costume in the Kazar wave, just like when I was a kid I'm all for it.
 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,662
Nothing in the text suggests a majority of them were turned unwillingly. The one person we see undergoing the procedure is a willing participant, we find out this episode that Bastion's mother was a bigot and likely underwent the procedure willingly, and Trask almost certainly did before getting cold feet after Genosha. Bastion's entire hometown being converted obviously had unwilling participants.

The only one we know for 100% was turned against their will is Trish, and that's only because the show runner said so. The text absolutely can support her willingly doing this.
The fact that his whole hometown was turned is proof that he's doing this to a lot of people who are unwilling and at least implies that a non-significant amount of Prime Sentinels outside of OZT members didn't sign up for it. Honestly whether it's the majority or not, your framing of their infiltration of New Genosha to be an attempt to save them doesn't seem fair after what my previous post explained in point B. They're there first and foremost to stop Magneto from making the Earth uninhabitable, not save the Prime Sentinels.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,707
The fact that his whole hometown was turned is proof that he's doing this to a lot of people who are unwilling and at least implies that a non-significant amount of Prime Sentinels outside of OZT members didn't sign up for it. Honestly whether it's the majority or not, your framing of their infiltration of New Genosha to be an attempt to save them doesn't seem fair after what my previous post explained in point B. They're there first and foremost to stop Magneto from making the Earth uninhabitable, not save the Prime Sentinels.
I'm not framing their attack on Magneto as trying to save the Prime Sentinels, I'm framing their attempts to restore the Prime Sentinels humanity as them trying to save the Prime Sentinels. Roberto even points out the issue of giving the super powered bigots their free will back but the show quickly rushes past it without properly responding to the point.
 

Judau

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,866
I've heard about that ending for decades, and I figured it was coming, but to actually see it? Damn.

Bastion comes off very "Xanatos from Gargoyles" to me.

If he had a ponytail (hello 90s) he'd be a dead ringer. Goes for the voice as well/

1000% lol. I even brought it up earlier in the thread. His delivery and his charisma are clearly (to me) based on Xanatos. People have compared his voice to other characters from other IP, but I'm pretty sure Xanatos pre-dates all of them.
 

Jhey Cyphre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,152
It was... but why did he have to change costumes? Just to match up with everyone else? And they already had this huge custom made costume for him, when everyone else had to go put on their old pajamas?

Don't get me wrong, if this is the reason we're getting a new toy of this costume in the Kazar wave, just like when I was a kid I'm all for it.

Jesus. Are we just looking for any reason to hate on this show now?

He gave it to him because he is his son and you can tell just from the few exchanges they have had that he is extremely proud to he fighting with him. He wants to let him know he is part of the team.

Also toys probably.
 

RedHoodedOwl

Member
Nov 3, 2017
14,261
Nothing in the text suggests a majority of them were turned unwillingly. The one person we see undergoing the procedure is a willing participant, we find out this episode that Bastion's mother was a bigot and likely underwent the procedure willingly, and Trask almost certainly did before getting cold feet after Genosha. Bastion's entire hometown being converted obviously had unwilling participants.

The only one we know for 100% was turned against their will is Trish, and that's only because the show runner said so. The text absolutely can support her willingly doing this.

I definitely could've believed that she was a volunteer because of her behavior from previous episodes.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,384
Here is something that is throwing me watching the episode but where was it reference that they had 12/24 hours until Magneto is destroying the world unless I missed something?
They're not saying it's something he's going to do. They're saying it's already done, the magnetic field is failing, and they have ~12 hours to convince (or force) Magneto to fix it.