PianoBlack

Member
May 24, 2018
6,818
United States
It means that while this is really cool, I think they're missing the point of what a next-gen lead-up should be. Their last stream was pretty poorly received, and they should go for broke on first party stuff before they do anything else.

This is neat! But for 99% of customers, that's all it is.

Fewer than 10% of the install base plays any given 1st party exclusive on either system (yes there are a couple exceptions). Meanwhile these enhancements will apply day 1 to the true mass market games like Fortnite, Minecraft, FIFA, Apex, Madden, COD etc. I think it will affect a far larger share of customers than 1P games will.

Fair play it's a fantastic effort they have put in to this and Sony's is pretty appalling by comparison, although the jury is out on just what we might see. I'm side eyeing that tweet though, especially the "no downclocking" bullet point clearly aimed at the novel way the PS5 reduces clocks, even though I do not see how any of that relates to backwards compatibility at all. Pretty cheeky of them to just throw it in as if that has anything to do with anything lol. It's a bit Trumpian to rile up the fan base it seems, lol. Still, great features and great for us all.

I read the no downclocking line as a reference to how the PS5 downclocks into PS4 Pro or PS4 Legacy modes for titles that don't work correctly with PS5 native clocks. Not about the variable clock rate thing for native games.

It will be interesting to see how the Lockhart console handles back compat. It is not even announced, but I think there's a good chance that it will just run the Xbox One S version of games/ back compat. Likely the faster loading and HDR will be a nice upgrade, but who knows about the framerates and resolution.

Yes, I suspect it may just be S mode. But even the S outputs all OG Xbox games at 1280x960 (instead of 640x480), does anisotropic filtering, and can use grunt to maintain higher dynamic resolutions or stabler framerates. So Lockhart will still be a better way of playing those games than any console besides XSX, and could be considered better than XB1X depending on what you think is more important (XB1X enhanced titles vs. auto HDR, for instance).

So I'm a bit confused. What is standard for every backwards compatible game and what is case by case? For example, what would we expect for Gears of War Judgment, Sunset Overdrive, Alan Wake, etc?

Increasingly complicated.... All OG Xbox games get resolution boosts, but the boost isn't the same on all systems. All games get auto HDR. All games get anisotropic filtering, but at different levels on different systems. All games will load faster with the SSD. All games with variable framerates or resolutions maintain better performance. Not clear if all 360 games get resolution boosts (my guess is no). XB1X enhancements like better textures are only available on XB1X and likely XSX (not Lockhart). A subset will get their framerates doubled. Then there might be new XSX enhancements... It's very cool that they do this but it will keep the ResetEra BC thread in business for a long time lol.

And it's a damn good thing that they're putting as much of a focus into BC as they are; because these consoles won't be getting any original, native, exclusive "next-gen" games for a long time. MS know that enhanced BC is the big selling point of this new generation and are doing absolutely everything right here.

They already have at least one next gen exclusive announced for launch or launch window (The Medium)?
 
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JaseC64

Enlightened
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,008
Strong Island NY
I'm really hoping MS does a trade in deal with an xsx? Or that something GS would only do?

I bought an xsx used. If I can do a slick switcheroo, I'm IN like Flynn baby.
 

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
7,421
Gears 5 at 120 FPS then?

Yup.
They already have a build of it running at over 100fps on NOT final consoles.
There is also going to be a Series X Optimized patch for Gears 5 so def going to be hammering 120fps.
I expect Halo Infinite to also have a 120fps mode at launch.


news.xbox.com

Xbox Series X: A Closer Look at the Technology Powering the Next Generation - Xbox Wire

A few months ago, we revealed Xbox Series X, our fastest, most powerful console ever, designed for a console generation that has you, the player, at its center. When it is released this holiday season, Xbox Series X will set a new bar for performance, speed and compatibility, all while allowing...

Rayner also shared that the game is already running over 100 FPS and that the team is investigating implementing 120 FPS gameplay for multiplayer modes, giving players an experience never before seen on consoles. Most impressive of all? The fact that the team was able to get all of this up and running in a matter of weeks.

The team also announced that they will have
an Xbox Series X Optimized version of Gears 5 available at Xbox Series X launch, which players will get free if they own the Xbox One version of Gears 5 and will leverage Smart Delivery depending on which console you're using.
 

Ringten

Member
Nov 15, 2017
6,233
PS5 has three modes for the hardware. PS5 (enhanced), PS4 Pro mode and PS4 mode, which means games not enhanced are running a downclocked PS5 and don't have access to the full hardware capabilities unlike the Series X.

Thank you for acknowledging the various modes of BC, playstation has.

Again, I am quoting the OP post
"No boost mode, no downclocking, the full power of the Xbox Series X for each and every backward compatible game. This means that all titles run at the peak performance that they were originally designed for, many times even higher performance "

The full power of Series X, which means that all titles will run at the original designed performance. Except for a hand curated list of games which will run better (just like PS5 enhanced mode).

Kinda sounds to me like a fancy way of saying the same thing.
 

Askherserenity

Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,092
Not to burst any bubbles, but is BC actually a selling point? Its a nice to have sure.

To anyone asking this, it's more than just nice to have...stop thinking about BC as just being able to play some old 360 games. Think about how amazing this is going to be for future purchases.
 

JohnLennon

Member
May 16, 2020
4,099
See above for the span of BC. Deffo right on that matter. Hats off to MS.

However MS confirmed the same thing Sony did. Most games will be compatible and not all. MS had to cover their back, same way Sony did.
(Sony has an official announcement of majority of 4000+ ps4 titles being compatible)

Check my quote please about the full power of Xbox Series X. They are using the full power of the Series X to run them in their original state. Only a curated list of games will be enhanced.
(Just like Sony will have enhanced games).
One difference I think you're ignoring is that XSX will run ALL Xbox One games. PS5 will only run whichever PS4 games they end up deciding to upgrade. Another is that MS went into detail about how the games will run, how they would be upgraded, which specific games are eligible, etc. Sony has given no detail apart from the hopes they upgrade "thousands" of games.

I'm just saying you're trying to say both companies are saying the same thing while it's clear to most that MS is being much more transparent and open, and frankly overall better, about their offering for BC than Sony is, at least how things stand today. It's totally fair to dismiss Sony's attempt at this point in time as they've said essentially nothing, while MS has put great detail into their plan.
 

PianoBlack

Member
May 24, 2018
6,818
United States
Thank you for acknowledging the various modes of BC, playstation has.

Again, I am quoting the OP post
"No boost mode, no downclocking, the full power of the Xbox Series X for each and every backward compatible game. This means that all titles run at the peak performance that they were originally designed for, many times even higher performance "

The full power of Series X, which means that all titles will run at the original designed performance. Except for a hand curated list of games which will run better (just like PS5 enhanced mode).

Kinda sounds to me like a fancy way of saying the same thing.

Not sure what's confusing you. The XSX is always running in "native" mode for lack of a better term. The PS5 isn't.

Take the GPU. The XSX won't deactivate 40 computer units and downclock them to match the XB1S, for example. It's not trying to appear as an XB1S to old games by altering its hardware settings. Instead it virtualizes the resources so the game can believe it is running on an old system while continuing to make available all the resources of the new system. All games will be enhanced (as they are today) with anisotropic filtering, more stable framerates and dynamic resolutions, and auto HDR if they didn't support HDR originally.

On the other hand the PS5 GPU will downclock from 2.23 GHz to either the native Pro speed (911 MHz) or native PS4 speed (800 MHz and 18 disabled compute units) for some games precisely because it does not virtualize things in the same way. So it needs to present a hardware config to those games that looks as similar as possible to the original system the game was built for. So far as we know, games running in these modes will not be enhanced, other than perhaps load times from the SSD.
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
Sony didn't invent the words...they just used them to describe their product.

Then Microsoft used those words to describe how their product works.
which seems a way to 'downplay' what the competition does. Not that it is wrong per se, but i thought under Spencer's direction everything was just positive and warring-free. I guess not. Just as always has been.
 
Oct 27, 2017
13,042
The effort of Microsoft's backwards compatibility team is second to none and, by far, the best in the business.

They've set the standard and keep on raising it far above their competition.
 

JuicyPlayer

Member
Feb 8, 2018
7,464
Fuck I wish PlayStation could do something like this. I have an entire shelf of PS1-3 disks that I would love to just throw into my PS5 with boosted visuals and frame rates. They used to care so much about their legacy and not so much anymore.
 

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
Thank you for acknowledging the various modes of BC, playstation has.

Again, I am quoting the OP post
"No boost mode, no downclocking, the full power of the Xbox Series X for each and every backward compatible game. This means that all titles run at the peak performance that they were originally designed for, many times even higher performance "

The full power of Series X, which means that all titles will run at the original designed performance. Except for a hand curated list of games which will run better (just like PS5 enhanced mode).

Kinda sounds to me like a fancy way of saying the same thing.

This is incorrect. All games receive performance improvements. Most games are just locked to 30 or 60fps (this is the peak performance they are referring to) and for select titles they may be able to override this and double the framerate

No need to speculate as it already works this way. It's actually a necessity as it would be a non-trivial effort to get the exact 360 performance from an emulator
 
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JohnLennon

Member
May 16, 2020
4,099
Not sure what's confusing you. The XSX is always running in "native" mode for lack of a better term. The PS5 isn't.

Take the GPU. The XSX won't deactivate 40 computer units and downclock them to match the XB1S, for example. It's not trying to appear as an XB1S to old games by altering its hardware settings. Instead it virtualizes the resources so the game can believe it is running on an old system while continuing to make available all the resources of the new system. All games will be enhanced (as they are today) with anisotropic filtering, more stable framerates and dynamic resolutions, and auto HDR if they didn't support HDR originally.

On the other hand the PS5 GPU will downclock from 2.23 GHz to either the native Pro speed (911 MHz) or native PS4 speed (800 MHz and 18 disabled compute units) precisely because it does not virtualize things in the same way. So it needs to present a hardware config to the game that looks as similar as possible to the original system the game was built for. So far as we know, gmes running in these modes will not be enhanced, other than perhaps load times from the SSD.
I didn't know most of this information and thought I was up to date. Just want to say thanks for sharing. Did not realize Sony had confirmed they would be downclocking to run their BC games, among other things.
 

PianoBlack

Member
May 24, 2018
6,818
United States
I didn't know most of this information and thought I was up to date. Just want to say thanks for sharing. Did not realize Sony had confirmed they would be downclocking to run their BC games, among other things.

Sure, no problem. Btw I corrected my post, originally it may have sounded like I was saying all PS4 games run in those downclocked native modes. That's definitely not the case, some games will run at native PS5 clocks and get benefits from that. But we don't know the exact breakdown yet.
 

JohnLennon

Member
May 16, 2020
4,099
Sure, no problem. Btw I corrected my post, originally it may have sounded like I was saying all PS4 games run in those downclocked native modes. That's definitely not the case, some games will run at native PS5 clocks and get benefits from that. But we don't know the exact breakdown yet.
That makes sense, I didn't think they'd said anything definitive, thanks!
 

Vinc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,414
The Xbox is definitely on track to being my default machine for third parties next-gen, not only because it's more powerful, but because it's looking like the Xbox will indeed have better BC. This just honestly makes me feel like investing in that ecosystem is smarter.
 

StudioTan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,836
Great work as always by the MS BC team, adding HDR to old games is going to be great. I was super impressed with how well some 360 games held up on the Xbox One X when running in 4k. Add in HDR and a lot of games will get a nice fresh coat of paint.
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
The effort of Microsoft's backwards compatibility team is second to none and, by far, the best in the business.

They've set the standard and keep on raising it far above their competition.
Easily the best without question. Sony and Nintendo's efforts are minimal in comparison. You got to invest the money to even try to be better, MS's effort on BC is unmatched.
 

Chasing

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
10,925
Clear sniping at the Sony camp, lol. But well done on Microsoft's part, those are all the things we want to hear. Now let's see if Sony can do the same next week.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,416
Canada
The BC team never ceases to amaze me. When the One X was coming out, I remember thinking it would be cool of they could boost 360 games to 900p, maybe 1080p if we were lucky. To see them get a boost to 4K was insane.

I have no doubt that they'll continue to blow us away with their work.
 

Pancracio17

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
19,080
Doubling framerates? Damn, thats almost too good to be true. Im really excited to see the list of enhanced games.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,678
I'm going to be wishing I had done the same so hard if it turns out the PS5 isn't playing all my PS4 games at launch.

Towards the end of the gen, I started to move to Xbox but yes, I do have some games that I won't get to till the PS5 is out and I since I'm giving the PS4 to my kids, I'm hoping the PS5 will run what I have pretty well.
 

MrBenchmark

Member
Dec 8, 2017
2,046
I really hope that Destiny 2 is getting this treatment I'd love to play with Xbox clan mates again at 60fps
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
I'm side eyeing that tweet though, especially the "no downclocking" bullet point clearly aimed at the novel way the PS5 reduces clocks, even though I do not see how any of that relates to backwards compatibility at all. Pretty cheeky of them to just throw it in as if that has anything to do with anything lol. It's a bit Trumpian to rile up the fan base it seems, lol. Still, great features and great for us all.
They are talking about how BC works on PS4 Pro, which doesn't use the full hardware in boost mode and BC on PS5 with the three modes. PS4 mode (games will run like on PS4), PS4 Pro mode (games will run like on Pro) and PS5 (Games will be enhanced).

On Xbox Series X all BC games have access to the full hardware capabilities. On PS5 that depends on the game and for some the console will downclock and so on to pretend it's a PS4.
But if we wanted say...RDR2 and GTA V at 60fps and perhaps even higher resolution, the input of the dev is required isn't it? Man I want this to happen though!
The games don't need input from the developers and code isn't changed when increasing resolution for example.
This. If they cannot I am going to be so confused at how MS can excel in such an area and Sony not be able to.
Microsoft has an plattform agnostic API and a lot of experience with hypervisor and so on. They are really good at this.
It will be interesting to see how the Lockhart console handles back compat. It is not even announced, but I think there's a good chance that it will just run the Xbox One S version of games/ back compat. Likely the faster loading and HDR will be a nice upgrade, but who knows about the framerates and resolution.
I wouldn't worry about lockhart, because the console is stronger in every aspect than Xbox One X.
seems a bit of console wars to mee, why mention boost mode and downclocking probably refered to PS5?
Also 'thousands' is as vague as the 'majority'. Will probably be better than Sony's solution, no doubt since they have a clear advantage here since have been working on this for a while.
It's not console wars. The just highlight the difference between PS4P/PS5 BC solution, because on the Sony consoles different mode exist.
The full power of Series X, which means that all titles will run at the original designed performance. Except for a hand curated list of games which will run better (just like PS5 enhanced mode).

Kinda sounds to me like a fancy way of saying the same thing
It's not the same thing. If we take a game running at 40 FPS on current gen consoles, then this means it will run at the cap (60FPS presumably) all the time while it depends on the mode the game uses on PS5. If it uses PS5 mode, then the same applies. However if it's using one of the legacy modes it'll still run at 40FPS.

If the game has dynamic resolution aswell, then the PS5 mode and Xbox Series X will run the game at the upper limit (native 4K eg), while the other modes run the game at 1080p (Ps4) or 1440p (Pro).
 

JohnLennon

Member
May 16, 2020
4,099
It's crazy how much Xbox shifted since the start of this generation. I like Xbox, but holy crap the start of the Xbox One was horrible. They came across as not caring about the customer, not caring about video games, pushing ideas we didn't want, and generally doing the opposite of what their customers were looking for.

Fast forward to now, and I don't want to come across as a Phil Spencer fanboy but it really is a completely different company, all thanks to him and Satya Nadella for believing in the vision. Game Pass is arguably the most consumer friendly thing in gaming right now, BC has been worked on the entire generation without any guarantee that it'll pay off, Xbox is releasing all first party games (and Game Pass) on PC, and everything that you currently own for Xbox One (controllers, games) will work with the Xbox Series X. It's not even that they listened to Xbox fans only, it really seems like they knew what a lot of gamers in general wanted, and aimed to address that.

In turn, that makes a lot of people want to support them more. And people wanting to support Microsoft for customer friendly moves is just not a sentence I thought I'd ever hear.
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
What they're talking about in terms of letting the game run on the full CPU/GPU at full speed...is exactly what the PS4 Pro boost mode was.

If they're recompiling every game for a XSX environment that would be different. But otherwise I don't see the distinction they're making.

The HDR and select framerate doubling are definitely extras we haven't seen before in BC, the latter in particular should be very sweet.
Boost mode games do use the full width of the GPU and the full GPU and CPU clocks. They're not recompiled, or otherwise manually tweaked by the developer, which is what the Knack patch is doing. So that's comparing apples to oranges.

Like I say, if the XSX is transparently running recompiled versions of games, then that would be different. Otherwise it seems it's technically a 'constant' boost mode, the difference being - as others have said - that it's transparent to the user rather than something the user turns on or off depending on how well the game runs (or not).
Oh. Hmm. Sorry, my bad. I was going by a statement in this report: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...de-tested-a-game-changer-for-unpatched-titles But actually, I misread that to say unpatched titles would also use the double-width of the GPU.

So yeah, that makes better sense of the jab at 'boost mode'. It'll be interesting to see if PS5's 'native' mode has a similar CU restriction or not. I'd guess it probably will to make things a bit simpler.
I don't think that MS is only taking a jab at the PS4 Pro and PS5 not "using the whole buffalo" when running BC games, even in boost mode. I think they are also commenting on the "use at your own risk, hopefully it will work" nature of boost mode, even if 99% of games work great in boost mode. They are basically saying that games just run on XSX and they use all of its' power.
 

Prime2

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,338
It's crazy how much Xbox shifted since the start of this generation. I like Xbox, but holy crap the start of the Xbox One was horrible. They came across as not caring about the customer, not caring about video games, pushing ideas we didn't want, and generally doing the opposite of what their customers were looking for.

Fast forward to now, and I don't want to come across as a Phil Spencer fanboy but it really is a completely different company, all thanks to him and Satya Nadella for believing in the vision. Game Pass is arguably the most consumer friendly thing in gaming right now, BC has been worked on the entire generation without any guarantee that it'll pay off, Xbox is releasing all first party games (and Game Pass) on PC, and everything that you currently own for Xbox One (controllers, games) will work with the Xbox Series X. It's not even that they listened to Xbox fans only, it really seems like they knew what a lot of gamers in general wanted, and aimed to address that.

In turn, that makes a lot of people want to support them more. And people wanting to support Microsoft for customer friendly moves is just not a sentence I thought I'd ever hear.

As much as you can praise them for all of that, the first party issue still needs to be fixed. I chatted with other people about this the other day it does really feel like July is make or break for them, its a put all the cards on the table sort of event.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,947
Well the good side is a large portion of that 360 library is available on Game Pass, which you could always try down the line at some point on PC or console (though I believe at this point in time the console version is superior).
Oh yea I have GP on PC. But there's a lot of stuff that was on both that I own on PS3, or even PS3 exclusives (Tokyo Jungle) that I would love to be able to bring forward to modern hardware. *wistful sigh*
 

TCG276

Member
Dec 17, 2017
520
I don't really play older games much so BC is not a big deal to me, but for those of you who do, XSX is going to be the best option hands down. I'll be happy if Sony has all of their exclusives BC ready at launch. It's just a shame that Sony stopped caring about game preservation. We'll have to wait and see if Sony has any BC surprises but I certainly wouldn't bet on it.
 

tzare

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Catalunya
They are talking about how BC works on PS4 Pro, which doesn't use the full hardware in boost mode and BC on PS5 with the three modes. PS4 mode (games will run like on PS4), PS4 Pro mode (games will run like on Pro) and PS5 (Games will be enhanced).

On Xbox Series X all BC games have access to the full hardware capabilities. On PS5 that depends on the game and for some the console will downclock and so on to pretend it's a PS4.
The games don't need input from the developers and code isn't changed when increasing resolution for example.
Microsoft has an plattform agnostic API and a lot of experience with hypervisor and so on. They are really good at this.
I wouldn't worry about lockhart, because the console is stronger in every aspect than Xbox One X.
It's not console wars. The just highlight the difference between PS4P/PS5 BC solution, because on the Sony consoles different mode exist.
It's not the same thing. If we take a game running at 40 FPS on current gen consoles, then this means it will run at the cap (60FPS presumably) all the time while it depends on the mode the game uses on PS5. If it uses PS5 mode, then the same applies. However if it's using one of the legacy modes it'll still run at 40FPS.

If the game has dynamic resolution aswell, then the PS5 mode and Xbox Series X will run the game at the upper limit (native 4K eg), while the other modes run the game at 1080p (Ps4) or 1440p (Pro).
that's your opinion, i beg to differ. The message points to PS5, downplaying their solution imo. That wasn't needed.
The same as their vagueness , thousands are a lot, but obviously not the full catalogue. It is quite interesting how some react depending on who delivers the message.
 

Linkified

Member
Dec 24, 2017
1,205
Reading that line in the OP about games going from 30 to 60fps potentially would love it if they do that to AC games.
 

Detective Pidgey

Alt Account
Banned
Jun 4, 2019
6,255
They are talking about how BC works on PS4 Pro, which doesn't use the full hardware in boost mode and BC on PS5 with the three modes. PS4 mode (games will run like on PS4), PS4 Pro mode (games will run like on Pro) and PS5 (Games will be enhanced).

On Xbox Series X all BC games have access to the full hardware capabilities. On PS5 that depends on the game and for some the console will downclock and so on to pretend it's a PS4.
The games don't need input from the developers and code isn't changed when increasing resolution for example.
Microsoft has an plattform agnostic API and a lot of experience with hypervisor and so on. They are really good at this.
I wouldn't worry about lockhart, because the console is stronger in every aspect than Xbox One X.
It's not console wars. The just highlight the difference between PS4P/PS5 BC solution, because on the Sony consoles different mode exist.
It's not the same thing. If we take a game running at 40 FPS on current gen consoles, then this means it will run at the cap (60FPS presumably) all the time while it depends on the mode the game uses on PS5. If it uses PS5 mode, then the same applies. However if it's using one of the legacy modes it'll still run at 40FPS.

If the game has dynamic resolution aswell, then the PS5 mode and Xbox Series X will run the game at the upper limit (native 4K eg), while the other modes run the game at 1080p (Ps4) or 1440p (Pro).


It's incredible. GTA 5,RDR2, Witcher 3 at 4K/60fps here we come? Shiiiiiiiit.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
Variable frequency will actually use "more" of the hardware than fixed frequency. XSX would be significantly more powerful if it used the PS5's model - it would also be able to hit 2+Ghz for most workloads. But this isn't the thread for that, and we've had enough FUD about the variable frequency fixed power approach of PS5 in the PS5 thread - you can go look at people explaining it there if you're interested.
Nobody including Xbox mentioned the variable frequency. The boost mode refers to Ps4 Pro and the PS5 legacy modes imo.

Boost mode in this thread and case means increased clockspeed like Sony did with PS4 Pro. This mode doesn't use the full hardware capabilities of the PS4 Pro.

Xbox Series X doesn't has a boost mode and always uses all the power the console offers.