Should there be a new OT?

  • Yes

    Votes: 389 51.7%
  • No

    Votes: 363 48.3%

  • Total voters
    752

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
19,473
United States
Very much this.

It doesn't help that the majority of Resetera at the same time despises capitalism and at the same time refuse to get a grip on how capitalism works, even if it's just a "know thy enemy" type situation. They're the people who come and watch a sports match and keep giving obnoxious commentary on the game, without knowing what the rules of the game are.

In the end, it's not that difficult. The console audience is stagnating while the demographic is aging causing the "collective free time" pool of the audience to shrink. Add the effect of f2p and live service games and that pool has dramatically shrunk for your typical games. AAA budgets have risen exponentially and there are ever more games being released. What's left is a bunch of publishers fighting each other for scraps if they don't seek alternative revenue be it letting go of platform exclusivity (Microsoft, Sony) or expanding their IP to other media (practically everyone) or subscriptions (Microsoft, Sony, EA, Ubisoft, Nintendo to lesser extent).

This means there's little room for AAA budget games that don't have potential for that media expansion. The risk is too large that you'll be spending six years of development and hundreds of millions of dollars on a game that just won't find the playerbase that it needs to make a profit. Long gone are the days where 3 million copies can be considered a success, especialy if you can't translate that game into an IP that can also spawn a tv series, or a movie, or something else.

So yeah, what do you do with a bunch of IP where the audience expects, and in the hardcore space DEMANDS, that you throw a large budget against them. You can't make Evil Within 3 for a smaller budget than you did previously. Making a HiFi Rush sequel? Sure, but just because of inflation you'll need to get at least 10-15% extra revenue from that sequel just to break even, and that's without the expectations of making it bigger and better and without higher fidelity consoles again demanding higher dev budgets.

I'd love to see the average Resetera poster put their job on the line just to make HiFi Rush 2 happen if they considered all those financial realities. Is it greed? Maybe. But you're making that game with investor money. Without investors, there would be no AAA, or even A gaming. Also, people love to forget that it's highly likely they're indirect investors as well since pension funds are a huge part of the investment pool.

Anyway, so you're a Microsoft executive and you need to allocate your budgets, which even at MS do still have a limit, and it's your job to assign the budgets to the studios with the highest potential. Tango Gameworks, a studio that's lost its main creative director and is thousands of miles away, and is solo in that timezone, and also hasn't had the type of hit that you'll need the coming decade? That's a danger. Arkane Austin, the studio that put out Prey and Redfall, makes expensive games but have failed to find an audience each time? That's a danger too.

I'm not saying I'm not sad for the people who lost their jobs. Getting fired is terrible ofcourse. But I do feel it's important to understand the financial realities this industry operates in instead of just projecting your hopes and dreams onto faceless corporations and being disappointed when those do not become reality.

And the audience is not blameless in this. That same crowd keeps demanding more and more fidelity. Your puddles lost reflections? Prepare for a backlash! You didn't time your surprise hit TV show with a game in the same franchise? Everyone calls you stupid. Redfall is a heaping dump? "Phil Spencer should've stepped in!" Microsoft lets Toys for Bob go independent? "I can't believe Phil Spencer didn't step in!" Game prices go from 50 USD to 70 USD? The sheer greed of these corporations, even though inflation has risen 80% in that same period, game development cost has risen exponentially and surprise, the audience buying your games have remained stagnant since 2008. Want to use AI to have the same output with a lower budget? That's a controversy too.

Sorry, had to get it out of my system. The evolution will inevitably be that these large publishers will push their budgets towards AAA games with recognisable, expandable IP while smaller indies will come into play and be ever more experimental with low budget games in the hopes of striking a chord with the audience and grow from there. This'll be the third or fourth time this happens in video games. And in twenty years, we can go hate Larian for mismanaging their projects and being 'anti-consumer', just like there was a time when Activision, EA and Ubisoft were promising new kids on the block.
I don't know if it's a certain disposition or it just comes with age but at some point you have to stop raging against the machine and get to work within the systems we have to get anything done for yourself or for your team/company (whatever line of work you are in.)

It's also the case that everything in this industry is magnified because, well, games are fucking awesome, so people who play them pay a ton of attention to the industry. Like, I bet people on this site could name the CEO of each of the main platform holders before they named the CEO of the company they worked for in a lot of cases.

And with that type of passion comes a lot of Dunning-Kruger scenarios. 'This shit is easy, you fucking idiots!" Not to even get into the intentionally obtuse takes you find are social media for engagement baiting.

Aye. Everything I've said in this thread so far I've said as a player, but as a game developer, I'll be thinking twice about taking a job at an Xbox studio over anyone else from now on. Only a week ago it would have been the complete opposite, now though, any image of them enabling creators and caring about studios has been burned.
With all of what I posted above being said, I also believe this is entirely fair. Because, again, at some point you have to get to work on doing what is best for yourself and yours. And they have broken trust. And that's on leadership at Xbox.
 

belairjeff

J->E Localization
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,324
Very much this.

It doesn't help that the majority of Resetera at the same time despises capitalism and at the same time refuse to get a grip on how capitalism works, even if it's just a "know thy enemy" type situation. They're the people who come and watch a sports match and keep giving obnoxious commentary on the game, without knowing what the rules of the game are.

In the end, it's not that difficult. The console audience is stagnating while the demographic is aging causing the "collective free time" pool of the audience to shrink. Add the effect of f2p and live service games and that pool has dramatically shrunk for your typical games. AAA budgets have risen exponentially and there are ever more games being released. What's left is a bunch of publishers fighting each other for scraps if they don't seek alternative revenue be it letting go of platform exclusivity (Microsoft, Sony) or expanding their IP to other media (practically everyone) or subscriptions (Microsoft, Sony, EA, Ubisoft, Nintendo to lesser extent).

This means there's little room for AAA budget games that don't have potential for that media expansion. The risk is too large that you'll be spending six years of development and hundreds of millions of dollars on a game that just won't find the playerbase that it needs to make a profit. Long gone are the days where 3 million copies can be considered a success, especialy if you can't translate that game into an IP that can also spawn a tv series, or a movie, or something else.

So yeah, what do you do with a bunch of IP where the audience expects, and in the hardcore space DEMANDS, that you throw a large budget against them. You can't make Evil Within 3 for a smaller budget than you did previously. Making a HiFi Rush sequel? Sure, but just because of inflation you'll need to get at least 10-15% extra revenue from that sequel just to break even, and that's without the expectations of making it bigger and better and without higher fidelity consoles again demanding higher dev budgets.

I'd love to see the average Resetera poster put their job on the line just to make HiFi Rush 2 happen if they considered all those financial realities. Is it greed? Maybe. But you're making that game with investor money. Without investors, there would be no AAA, or even A gaming. Also, people love to forget that it's highly likely they're indirect investors as well since pension funds are a huge part of the investment pool.

Anyway, so you're a Microsoft executive and you need to allocate your budgets, which even at MS do still have a limit, and it's your job to assign the budgets to the studios with the highest potential. Tango Gameworks, a studio that's lost its main creative director and is thousands of miles away, and is solo in that timezone, and also hasn't had the type of hit that you'll need the coming decade? That's a danger. Arkane Austin, the studio that put out Prey and Redfall, makes expensive games but have failed to find an audience each time? That's a danger too.

I'm not saying I'm not sad for the people who lost their jobs. Getting fired is terrible ofcourse. But I do feel it's important to understand the financial realities this industry operates in instead of just projecting your hopes and dreams onto faceless corporations and being disappointed when those do not become reality.

And the audience is not blameless in this. That same crowd keeps demanding more and more fidelity. Your puddles lost reflections? Prepare for a backlash! You didn't time your surprise hit TV show with a game in the same franchise? Everyone calls you stupid. Redfall is a heaping dump? "Phil Spencer should've stepped in!" Microsoft lets Toys for Bob go independent? "I can't believe Phil Spencer didn't step in!" Game prices go from 50 USD to 70 USD? The sheer greed of these corporations, even though inflation has risen 80% in that same period, game development cost has risen exponentially and surprise, the audience buying your games have remained stagnant since 2008. Want to use AI to have the same output with a lower budget? That's a controversy too.

Sorry, had to get it out of my system. The evolution will inevitably be that these large publishers will push their budgets towards AAA games with recognisable, expandable IP while smaller indies will come into play and be ever more experimental with low budget games in the hopes of striking a chord with the audience and grow from there. This'll be the third or fourth time this happens in video games. And in twenty years, we can go hate Larian for mismanaging their projects and being 'anti-consumer', just like there was a time when Activision, EA and Ubisoft were promising new kids on the block.

Nintendo hasn't had a problem being successful in 2024 even with the extreme changes in the industry. And even during their Wii U era of turmoil, they never shuttered their studios. Microsoft has never been more profitable and Bobby Kotick's exit package was enough money to keep these studios open for 17 years.

There are structural issues in the systems in place that those on top get bonuses to cut their companies slim while the average worker, the one actually creating the product, suffers.

Not to mention that the yen has never been weaker, it would have been very reasonable and affordable to keep Tango open considering they just released one of the most critically acclaimed Microsoft game in years.
 
Last edited:

Zebesian-X

Member
Dec 3, 2018
20,072
Very much this.

It doesn't help that the majority of Resetera at the same time despises capitalism and at the same time refuse to get a grip on how capitalism works, even if it's just a "know thy enemy" type situation. They're the people who come and watch a sports match and keep giving obnoxious commentary on the game, without knowing what the rules of the game are.

In the end, it's not that difficult. The console audience is stagnating while the demographic is aging causing the "collective free time" pool of the audience to shrink. Add the effect of f2p and live service games and that pool has dramatically shrunk for your typical games. AAA budgets have risen exponentially and there are ever more games being released. What's left is a bunch of publishers fighting each other for scraps if they don't seek alternative revenue be it letting go of platform exclusivity (Microsoft, Sony) or expanding their IP to other media (practically everyone) or subscriptions (Microsoft, Sony, EA, Ubisoft, Nintendo to lesser extent).

This means there's little room for AAA budget games that don't have potential for that media expansion. The risk is too large that you'll be spending six years of development and hundreds of millions of dollars on a game that just won't find the playerbase that it needs to make a profit. Long gone are the days where 3 million copies can be considered a success, especialy if you can't translate that game into an IP that can also spawn a tv series, or a movie, or something else.

So yeah, what do you do with a bunch of IP where the audience expects, and in the hardcore space DEMANDS, that you throw a large budget against them. You can't make Evil Within 3 for a smaller budget than you did previously. Making a HiFi Rush sequel? Sure, but just because of inflation you'll need to get at least 10-15% extra revenue from that sequel just to break even, and that's without the expectations of making it bigger and better and without higher fidelity consoles again demanding higher dev budgets.

I'd love to see the average Resetera poster put their job on the line just to make HiFi Rush 2 happen if they considered all those financial realities. Is it greed? Maybe. But you're making that game with investor money. Without investors, there would be no AAA, or even A gaming. Also, people love to forget that it's highly likely they're indirect investors as well since pension funds are a huge part of the investment pool.

Anyway, so you're a Microsoft executive and you need to allocate your budgets, which even at MS do still have a limit, and it's your job to assign the budgets to the studios with the highest potential. Tango Gameworks, a studio that's lost its main creative director and is thousands of miles away, and is solo in that timezone, and also hasn't had the type of hit that you'll need the coming decade? That's a danger. Arkane Austin, the studio that put out Prey and Redfall, makes expensive games but have failed to find an audience each time? That's a danger too.

I'm not saying I'm not sad for the people who lost their jobs. Getting fired is terrible ofcourse. But I do feel it's important to understand the financial realities this industry operates in instead of just projecting your hopes and dreams onto faceless corporations and being disappointed when those do not become reality.

And the audience is not blameless in this. That same crowd keeps demanding more and more fidelity. Your puddles lost reflections? Prepare for a backlash! You didn't time your surprise hit TV show with a game in the same franchise? Everyone calls you stupid. Redfall is a heaping dump? "Phil Spencer should've stepped in!" Microsoft lets Toys for Bob go independent? "I can't believe Phil Spencer didn't step in!" Game prices go from 50 USD to 70 USD? The sheer greed of these corporations, even though inflation has risen 80% in that same period, game development cost has risen exponentially and surprise, the audience buying your games have remained stagnant since 2008. Want to use AI to have the same output with a lower budget? That's a controversy too.

Sorry, had to get it out of my system. The evolution will inevitably be that these large publishers will push their budgets towards AAA games with recognisable, expandable IP while smaller indies will come into play and be ever more experimental with low budget games in the hopes of striking a chord with the audience and grow from there. This'll be the third or fourth time this happens in video games. And in twenty years, we can go hate Larian for mismanaging their projects and being 'anti-consumer', just like there was a time when Activision, EA and Ubisoft were promising new kids on the block.
The analysis is fine but the framing is odd.

"ResetEra just hates capitalism, they don't understand shit"

*proceeds to outline the market conditions that everyone brings up in every layoff thread when they talk about why these circumstances are upsetting*

It can't be ignored that the games industry is facing a reckoning right now. And it isn't ignored! This place talks about it on the daily. I guess you've gotta direct your anger somewhere but it's puzzling to position yourself in opposition to the general forum consensus when in reality you're on the same page as everyone else.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,474
Very much this.

It doesn't help that the majority of Resetera at the same time despises capitalism and at the same time refuse to get a grip on how capitalism works, even if it's just a "know thy enemy" type situation. They're the people who come and watch a sports match and keep giving obnoxious commentary on the game, without knowing what the rules of the game are.

In the end, it's not that difficult. The console audience is stagnating while the demographic is aging causing the "collective free time" pool of the audience to shrink. Add the effect of f2p and live service games and that pool has dramatically shrunk for your typical games. AAA budgets have risen exponentially and there are ever more games being released. What's left is a bunch of publishers fighting each other for scraps if they don't seek alternative revenue be it letting go of platform exclusivity (Microsoft, Sony) or expanding their IP to other media (practically everyone) or subscriptions (Microsoft, Sony, EA, Ubisoft, Nintendo to lesser extent).

This means there's little room for AAA budget games that don't have potential for that media expansion. The risk is too large that you'll be spending six years of development and hundreds of millions of dollars on a game that just won't find the playerbase that it needs to make a profit. Long gone are the days where 3 million copies can be considered a success, especialy if you can't translate that game into an IP that can also spawn a tv series, or a movie, or something else.

So yeah, what do you do with a bunch of IP where the audience expects, and in the hardcore space DEMANDS, that you throw a large budget against them. You can't make Evil Within 3 for a smaller budget than you did previously. Making a HiFi Rush sequel? Sure, but just because of inflation you'll need to get at least 10-15% extra revenue from that sequel just to break even, and that's without the expectations of making it bigger and better and without higher fidelity consoles again demanding higher dev budgets.

I'd love to see the average Resetera poster put their job on the line just to make HiFi Rush 2 happen if they considered all those financial realities. Is it greed? Maybe. But you're making that game with investor money. Without investors, there would be no AAA, or even A gaming. Also, people love to forget that it's highly likely they're indirect investors as well since pension funds are a huge part of the investment pool.

Anyway, so you're a Microsoft executive and you need to allocate your budgets, which even at MS do still have a limit, and it's your job to assign the budgets to the studios with the highest potential. Tango Gameworks, a studio that's lost its main creative director and is thousands of miles away, and is solo in that timezone, and also hasn't had the type of hit that you'll need the coming decade? That's a danger. Arkane Austin, the studio that put out Prey and Redfall, makes expensive games but have failed to find an audience each time? That's a danger too.

I'm not saying I'm not sad for the people who lost their jobs. Getting fired is terrible ofcourse. But I do feel it's important to understand the financial realities this industry operates in instead of just projecting your hopes and dreams onto faceless corporations and being disappointed when those do not become reality.

And the audience is not blameless in this. That same crowd keeps demanding more and more fidelity. Your puddles lost reflections? Prepare for a backlash! You didn't time your surprise hit TV show with a game in the same franchise? Everyone calls you stupid. Redfall is a heaping dump? "Phil Spencer should've stepped in!" Microsoft lets Toys for Bob go independent? "I can't believe Phil Spencer didn't step in!" Game prices go from 50 USD to 70 USD? The sheer greed of these corporations, even though inflation has risen 80% in that same period, game development cost has risen exponentially and surprise, the audience buying your games have remained stagnant since 2008. Want to use AI to have the same output with a lower budget? That's a controversy too.

Sorry, had to get it out of my system. The evolution will inevitably be that these large publishers will push their budgets towards AAA games with recognisable, expandable IP while smaller indies will come into play and be ever more experimental with low budget games in the hopes of striking a chord with the audience and grow from there. This'll be the third or fourth time this happens in video games. And in twenty years, we can go hate Larian for mismanaging their projects and being 'anti-consumer', just like there was a time when Activision, EA and Ubisoft were promising new kids on the block.

I just want to point out inflation is as bad as it is in large part because of greedy execs and corporations. Yeah its the way the world works but providing context doesn't really negate the actual issues. If anything it highlights why serious changes need to be made across the board instead of just doing an elaborate shrug of the shoulders to state,"Well that's just capitalism. Get to know it better!"
 

Native_Vel

Member
Jun 5, 2022
1,249
Very much this.

It doesn't help that the majority of Resetera at the same time despises capitalism and at the same time refuse to get a grip on how capitalism works, even if it's just a "know thy enemy" type situation. They're the people who come and watch a sports match and keep giving obnoxious commentary on the game, without knowing what the rules of the game are.

In the end, it's not that difficult. The console audience is stagnating while the demographic is aging causing the "collective free time" pool of the audience to shrink. Add the effect of f2p and live service games and that pool has dramatically shrunk for your typical games. AAA budgets have risen exponentially and there are ever more games being released. What's left is a bunch of publishers fighting each other for scraps if they don't seek alternative revenue be it letting go of platform exclusivity (Microsoft, Sony) or expanding their IP to other media (practically everyone) or subscriptions (Microsoft, Sony, EA, Ubisoft, Nintendo to lesser extent).

This means there's little room for AAA budget games that don't have potential for that media expansion. The risk is too large that you'll be spending six years of development and hundreds of millions of dollars on a game that just won't find the playerbase that it needs to make a profit. Long gone are the days where 3 million copies can be considered a success, especialy if you can't translate that game into an IP that can also spawn a tv series, or a movie, or something else.

So yeah, what do you do with a bunch of IP where the audience expects, and in the hardcore space DEMANDS, that you throw a large budget against them. You can't make Evil Within 3 for a smaller budget than you did previously. Making a HiFi Rush sequel? Sure, but just because of inflation you'll need to get at least 10-15% extra revenue from that sequel just to break even, and that's without the expectations of making it bigger and better and without higher fidelity consoles again demanding higher dev budgets.

I'd love to see the average Resetera poster put their job on the line just to make HiFi Rush 2 happen if they considered all those financial realities. Is it greed? Maybe. But you're making that game with investor money. Without investors, there would be no AAA, or even A gaming. Also, people love to forget that it's highly likely they're indirect investors as well since pension funds are a huge part of the investment pool.

Anyway, so you're a Microsoft executive and you need to allocate your budgets, which even at MS do still have a limit, and it's your job to assign the budgets to the studios with the highest potential. Tango Gameworks, a studio that's lost its main creative director and is thousands of miles away, and is solo in that timezone, and also hasn't had the type of hit that you'll need the coming decade? That's a danger. Arkane Austin, the studio that put out Prey and Redfall, makes expensive games but have failed to find an audience each time? That's a danger too.

I'm not saying I'm not sad for the people who lost their jobs. Getting fired is terrible ofcourse. But I do feel it's important to understand the financial realities this industry operates in instead of just projecting your hopes and dreams onto faceless corporations and being disappointed when those do not become reality.

And the audience is not blameless in this. That same crowd keeps demanding more and more fidelity. Your puddles lost reflections? Prepare for a backlash! You didn't time your surprise hit TV show with a game in the same franchise? Everyone calls you stupid. Redfall is a heaping dump? "Phil Spencer should've stepped in!" Microsoft lets Toys for Bob go independent? "I can't believe Phil Spencer didn't step in!" Game prices go from 50 USD to 70 USD? The sheer greed of these corporations, even though inflation has risen 80% in that same period, game development cost has risen exponentially and surprise, the audience buying your games have remained stagnant since 2008. Want to use AI to have the same output with a lower budget? That's a controversy too.

Sorry, had to get it out of my system. The evolution will inevitably be that these large publishers will push their budgets towards AAA games with recognisable, expandable IP while smaller indies will come into play and be ever more experimental with low budget games in the hopes of striking a chord with the audience and grow from there. This'll be the third or fourth time this happens in video games. And in twenty years, we can go hate Larian for mismanaging their projects and being 'anti-consumer', just like there was a time when Activision, EA and Ubisoft were promising new kids on the block.


Top 10 Era post.
 

RoKKeR

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,489
Nintendo hasn't had a problem being successful in 2024 even with the extreme changes in the industry. And even during their Wii U era of turmoil, they never shuttered their studios.
This is very true… I'm off the cuff… but Nintendo has the "cost" side of the equation way more in control than some of the other big players. At least they have over the last 5-7 years as budgets took off and the industry started to slow after COVID. I think this has helped them tremendously but even now their president is talking about how that's perhaps changing for them as well.
 

PleaseBeKind

Member
Oct 31, 2023
368
Dude with the dog avatar (cant remember the username): are you doing okay at work? I remember you graduated a while ago and moved to Austin and now I read about Arkane Austin being shut down hoping youre okay if youre in this industry.
 

Zebesian-X

Member
Dec 3, 2018
20,072
I just want to point out inflation is as bad as it is in large part because of greedy execs and corporations. Yeah its the way the world works but providing context doesn't really negate the actual issues. If anything it highlights why serious changes need to be made across the board instead of just doing an elaborate shrug of the shoulders to state,"Well that's just capitalism. Get to know it better!"
"Sure you're mad, but have you ever considered x y and z??"

Like, yeah man!! That's why people are mad!!
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
19,473
United States
💯 Era loves to say how 70$ is insane and why are they doing this if they are making all this money etc. etc. Well let's think about it. Most of all that money that these companies are making are not coming from the 70$ pricetag, but from the MTX on the black hole games era hates. Era claims to want SP games to thrive, but between inflation and general costs of development going up, the amount it takes to make a SP game, even a smaller one is likely two to three times what it was a gen ago, and probably 5-10 times more than the PS360 gen (which is when 60$ became standard). Logically, for a game with no MTX, for this to be sustainable, considering the audience has not grown at all for these types of releases, you should be pricing the games at like 120$ or more. People seem unable to see that either these prices spike, MTX gets added, or the game doesn't get made (and studios get shuttered).

Now this doesn't excuse this blatant flip flopping and wishy washy strategy that Xbox has been (or has not been) following the last decade. This is more of a general universal industry problem.
Honestly, one of the biggest factors of what we are seeing in the market today is the market's pricing elasticity. Some of the pressure could be alleviated if the games were allowed to move up with inflation.

you're right; business is business, if you ain't making money then what is it all for?

However, go have a look at the studios that MS currently owns and think about, objectively how many of these studios are going to be turning profits for MS.
Should they all close?

When Hellblade 2 doesn't turn profit; are people going to be like 'oo well; that's business, shouldn't of taken so long to make the game and made sure it had GAAS bs in it'.

How do you cultivate a positive culture at your developers when they know they are on the cutting block.

Hopefully the smaller studios at MS are able to buy them selfs out and become independent if that is the case.

If some of you are ok with xbox becoming a GAAS behemoth; then all the power to you. But its definitely not something that Phil and gangs has been promising for the past 10 years.
My personal hope was that the Game Pass model would provide cover for a portion of their teams to actually flourish in the "let creatives be creative" ethos they sold. That it would be a brand differentiator and that consumers would buy in. It seems that isn't happening, though. And that is a real bummer.
 

RoboMagik

Member
Mar 6, 2023
258
Very much this.

It doesn't help that the majority of Resetera at the same time despises capitalism and at the same time refuse to get a grip on how capitalism works, even if it's just a "know thy enemy" type situation. They're the people who come and watch a sports match and keep giving obnoxious commentary on the game, without knowing what the rules of the game are.

In the end, it's not that difficult. The console audience is stagnating while the demographic is aging causing the "collective free time" pool of the audience to shrink. Add the effect of f2p and live service games and that pool has dramatically shrunk for your typical games. AAA budgets have risen exponentially and there are ever more games being released. What's left is a bunch of publishers fighting each other for scraps if they don't seek alternative revenue be it letting go of platform exclusivity (Microsoft, Sony) or expanding their IP to other media (practically everyone) or subscriptions (Microsoft, Sony, EA, Ubisoft, Nintendo to lesser extent).

This means there's little room for AAA budget games that don't have potential for that media expansion. The risk is too large that you'll be spending six years of development and hundreds of millions of dollars on a game that just won't find the playerbase that it needs to make a profit. Long gone are the days where 3 million copies can be considered a success, especialy if you can't translate that game into an IP that can also spawn a tv series, or a movie, or something else.

So yeah, what do you do with a bunch of IP where the audience expects, and in the hardcore space DEMANDS, that you throw a large budget against them. You can't make Evil Within 3 for a smaller budget than you did previously. Making a HiFi Rush sequel? Sure, but just because of inflation you'll need to get at least 10-15% extra revenue from that sequel just to break even, and that's without the expectations of making it bigger and better and without higher fidelity consoles again demanding higher dev budgets.

I'd love to see the average Resetera poster put their job on the line just to make HiFi Rush 2 happen if they considered all those financial realities. Is it greed? Maybe. But you're making that game with investor money. Without investors, there would be no AAA, or even A gaming. Also, people love to forget that it's highly likely they're indirect investors as well since pension funds are a huge part of the investment pool.

Anyway, so you're a Microsoft executive and you need to allocate your budgets, which even at MS do still have a limit, and it's your job to assign the budgets to the studios with the highest potential. Tango Gameworks, a studio that's lost its main creative director and is thousands of miles away, and is solo in that timezone, and also hasn't had the type of hit that you'll need the coming decade? That's a danger. Arkane Austin, the studio that put out Prey and Redfall, makes expensive games but have failed to find an audience each time? That's a danger too.

I'm not saying I'm not sad for the people who lost their jobs. Getting fired is terrible ofcourse. But I do feel it's important to understand the financial realities this industry operates in instead of just projecting your hopes and dreams onto faceless corporations and being disappointed when those do not become reality.

And the audience is not blameless in this. That same crowd keeps demanding more and more fidelity. Your puddles lost reflections? Prepare for a backlash! You didn't time your surprise hit TV show with a game in the same franchise? Everyone calls you stupid. Redfall is a heaping dump? "Phil Spencer should've stepped in!" Microsoft lets Toys for Bob go independent? "I can't believe Phil Spencer didn't step in!" Game prices go from 50 USD to 70 USD? The sheer greed of these corporations, even though inflation has risen 80% in that same period, game development cost has risen exponentially and surprise, the audience buying your games have remained stagnant since 2008. Want to use AI to have the same output with a lower budget? That's a controversy too.

Sorry, had to get it out of my system. The evolution will inevitably be that these large publishers will push their budgets towards AAA games with recognisable, expandable IP while smaller indies will come into play and be ever more experimental with low budget games in the hopes of striking a chord with the audience and grow from there. This'll be the third or fourth time this happens in video games. And in twenty years, we can go hate Larian for mismanaging their projects and being 'anti-consumer', just like there was a time when Activision, EA and Ubisoft were promising new kids on the block.

While you get most of market demographics realities right, the one thing missing and it's joepardizing this industry (and other industries too) is that is built on unstable foundations.

Investors are promised crazy returns, it's still basicaly based on Tim Sweeney "The very first Gears of War game cost $12 million to develop, and it made about $100 million in revenue". Yes, yes it did but you can't make your buisness foundation on that anymore.

Market is highly competetive, games coming from USA, Europa, China etc.This is entertainemnt business, it's voltaile, tastes changes, it's take a long time to make a video game now, what was hot idea when game was pitched, mightbe out of everyone wheelhouse when game is finished.

If your buisness is based on every video game raking up revenue 3 to 10 times cost of the game then then publishers will be at this constant state of turmoil we see now, because this model is pipe dream.

And sure, if you straight up tell investors we are not the hottest shit you can invest your money, we will try to more stable and healthy industry but with lower interest rate, a lot of the money will disappear, stock prices will fall and a lot of higher ups won't be as wealthy as they want to be.

So let's not put wool over people's eyes that there isn't a way, no people in charge don't want healthier industry and yes it is greed, so the cycles of investments sprees and acquistions and then cost cutting and lay offs will continue.
 

YozoraXV

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,064
Nintendo hasn't had a problem being successful in 2024 even with the extreme changes in the industry. And even during their Wii U era of turmoil, they never shuttered their studios. Microsoft has never been more profitable and Bobby Kotick's exit package was enough money to keep these studios open for 17 years.

There are structural issues in the systems in place that those on top get bonuses to cut their companies slim while the average worker, the one actually creating the product, suffers.

Nintendo seem to be very efficient in how they run, but haven't broken into making AAA games which would be incredibly expensive like a Spiderman or Starfield. I think the Switch 2 will be the real test for them to see if they can continue to work so cost effectively due to the power jump.

On top of that they never have to cut the price on any other their products this kind of brand power is only seen by Apple, no other publisher in gaming can get away with that.
 
Last edited:

belairjeff

J->E Localization
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,324
Nintendo seem to be very efficient in how they run, but haven't broken into making AAA games which would be increidably expensive like a Spiderman or Starfield. I think the Switch 2 will be the real test for them to see if they can continue to work so cost effectively due to the power jump.

On top of that they never have to cut the price on any other their products this kind of brand power is only seen by Apple, no other publisher in gaming can get away with that.

Tears of the Kingdom?
 

Mr Evil 37

Member
Mar 7, 2022
11,317
Honestly, one of the biggest factors of what we are seeing in the market today is the market's pricing elasticity. Some of the pressure could be alleviated if the games were allowed to move up with inflation.
Or just explore the scale generally. I know people freaked out about Hellblade at 50 but they'll have run the numbers and deduced that people won't pay 70 for an 8 hour game, whereas they will pay it for a 15-50 hour game.
 

vixolus

Prophet of Truth
Member
Sep 22, 2020
56,153
Dude with the dog avatar (cant remember the username): are you doing okay at work? I remember you graduated a while ago and moved to Austin and now I read about Arkane Austin being shut down hoping youre okay if youre in this industry.
lol I'm doing fine. Im not in the industry. It's sad to see the city lose a prestigious studio but what can you do
 

David Matter

Banned
Apr 16, 2024
304
Very much this.

It doesn't help that the majority of Resetera at the same time despises capitalism and at the same time refuse to get a grip on how capitalism works, even if it's just a "know thy enemy" type situation. They're the people who come and watch a sports match and keep giving obnoxious commentary on the game, without knowing what the rules of the game are.

In the end, it's not that difficult. The console audience is stagnating while the demographic is aging causing the "collective free time" pool of the audience to shrink. Add the effect of f2p and live service games and that pool has dramatically shrunk for your typical games. AAA budgets have risen exponentially and there are ever more games being released. What's left is a bunch of publishers fighting each other for scraps if they don't seek alternative revenue be it letting go of platform exclusivity (Microsoft, Sony) or expanding their IP to other media (practically everyone) or subscriptions (Microsoft, Sony, EA, Ubisoft, Nintendo to lesser extent).

This means there's little room for AAA budget games that don't have potential for that media expansion. The risk is too large that you'll be spending six years of development and hundreds of millions of dollars on a game that just won't find the playerbase that it needs to make a profit. Long gone are the days where 3 million copies can be considered a success, especialy if you can't translate that game into an IP that can also spawn a tv series, or a movie, or something else.

So yeah, what do you do with a bunch of IP where the audience expects, and in the hardcore space DEMANDS, that you throw a large budget against them. You can't make Evil Within 3 for a smaller budget than you did previously. Making a HiFi Rush sequel? Sure, but just because of inflation you'll need to get at least 10-15% extra revenue from that sequel just to break even, and that's without the expectations of making it bigger and better and without higher fidelity consoles again demanding higher dev budgets.

I'd love to see the average Resetera poster put their job on the line just to make HiFi Rush 2 happen if they considered all those financial realities. Is it greed? Maybe. But you're making that game with investor money. Without investors, there would be no AAA, or even A gaming. Also, people love to forget that it's highly likely they're indirect investors as well since pension funds are a huge part of the investment pool.

Anyway, so you're a Microsoft executive and you need to allocate your budgets, which even at MS do still have a limit, and it's your job to assign the budgets to the studios with the highest potential. Tango Gameworks, a studio that's lost its main creative director and is thousands of miles away, and is solo in that timezone, and also hasn't had the type of hit that you'll need the coming decade? That's a danger. Arkane Austin, the studio that put out Prey and Redfall, makes expensive games but have failed to find an audience each time? That's a danger too.

I'm not saying I'm not sad for the people who lost their jobs. Getting fired is terrible ofcourse. But I do feel it's important to understand the financial realities this industry operates in instead of just projecting your hopes and dreams onto faceless corporations and being disappointed when those do not become reality.

And the audience is not blameless in this. That same crowd keeps demanding more and more fidelity. Your puddles lost reflections? Prepare for a backlash! You didn't time your surprise hit TV show with a game in the same franchise? Everyone calls you stupid. Redfall is a heaping dump? "Phil Spencer should've stepped in!" Microsoft lets Toys for Bob go independent? "I can't believe Phil Spencer didn't step in!" Game prices go from 50 USD to 70 USD? The sheer greed of these corporations, even though inflation has risen 80% in that same period, game development cost has risen exponentially and surprise, the audience buying your games have remained stagnant since 2008. Want to use AI to have the same output with a lower budget? That's a controversy too.

Sorry, had to get it out of my system. The evolution will inevitably be that these large publishers will push their budgets towards AAA games with recognisable, expandable IP while smaller indies will come into play and be ever more experimental with low budget games in the hopes of striking a chord with the audience and grow from there. This'll be the third or fourth time this happens in video games. And in twenty years, we can go hate Larian for mismanaging their projects and being 'anti-consumer', just like there was a time when Activision, EA and Ubisoft were promising new kids on the block.
you made good points, but you are not saying something, gamepass was the "savior" of those smaller games, the idea of gamepass is that now small games from xbox will always have a space in gamepass, developers like DOUBLE FINE said that finally they can make their special games without being worried about financials, spencer said many times that they will support tango, and this kind of smaller games, now what? they acquired activision and now of course they have to backtrack a lot of things

problem with your analysis is that now xbox is in a point of no return, where all their promises are almost gone, activision is a troyan horse that is affecting everything on xbox, as they say, they will focus on big IPs, so, ninja theory, compulsion, double fine and all other small studios that develop "smaller games" that are part of xbox should be worried (they are already), they could be closed in the future for the sake of giving resources to the "black holes games" like COD, etc...

problem is as well that thanks to "its business, they acquried activision , its business, they have to close studios with smaller games that will not find an audience" thanks to that now xbox is completly different, multiplatform approach, gamepass is signaling failure, long term nobody knows (maybe even at xbox) if gamepass will exist, hardware consoles of xbox are failing worldwide, their audience is shrinking, all of this because their "gamepass" approach and their greed into buying more and more publishers

Xbox is changing for the worse and people is starting to see it even if there were signals way long ago, xbox fans like me are still getting use to it, but is now the reality, there is a reason why PlayStation CEO, Take Two CEO, Former Activision CEO, said that AAA games with big budgets going into gamepass made no sense, what do you think other big publishers CEO are thinking? Xbox was the one trying it, and is failing in their faces

greed break the bag, and xbox is suffering it, and as the articles said yesterday, now that microsoft invested 100b in xbox, they turn their sauron eyes to xbox, and they want results, and not like before when xbox was just a small number on their reports, now they want results and I feel Xbox is going to change even more for the worse and xbox fans are starting to see it with facts and not with "this could happen" theories
 

CubeApple76

Member
Jan 20, 2021
6,805
Honestly, one of the biggest factors of what we are seeing in the market today is the market's pricing elasticity. Some of the pressure could be alleviated if the games were allowed to move up with inflation.


My personal hope was that the Game Pass model would provide cover for a portion of their teams to actually flourish in the "let creatives be creative" ethos they sold. That it would be a brand differentiator and that consumers would buy in. It seems that isn't happening, though. And that is a real bummer.
Yep, I definitely think so. It feels like gaming is this unique industry (partly because the walled gardens survived so much longer than in other sectors making competition fierce) where prices have not been allowed to track inflation. Now part of this is just the fact that MTX basically were a drop in replacement for this, but the trouble is that only solves the issue for the Madden and CoDs of the world. The one and done SP game with no MTX costs basically the same to the consumer as it did 20 years ago, while costing 10x as much to make, without the audience growing materially. Anyone should be able to see how this is a problem. And it's not just about corporate greed or whatever. Gears of War 1 made 100 million off a ~15 million budget. Gears 6 likely cost 100 million to make, and it'll be lucky if it makes 100 million in revenue (even without assuming lost sales due to GP). Fully SP games will fare even worse. With numbers like these it's not about greed, it's about necessity.

If people are serious about wanting their hobby to keep these types of games around, they better get ready to accept a massive price increase in the cost of releases, and quick.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,474
"Sure you're mad, but have you ever considered x y and z??"

Like, yeah man!! That's why people are mad!!

Just feels weird to go "inflation is bad so them's the breaks" when these same people are behind the worst of many of the current economic realities. It's also rich to demand that Era users learn about capitalism when seemingly the trillion dollar mega corporation went blindly stumbling into this mess. Maybe the suits at MS should learn a little about how capitalism works.
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,137
Analysing this from the perspective of the bean counters, they have some pretty convincing arguments and hard questions to answer for the Gaming division:

- ABK was the biggest acquisition in MS history and we made important sacrifices from an economical, legal and even reputational perspective during the review process. Why should we let you run it on your own terms as a division?

- Without ABK, the Gaming division would have single digit or negative growth. What have you been doing during the last 5-6 years?

- ABK was very successful and made a lot of money using a premium model focused on huge IPs. What happened to our own huge IPs and why haven't been able to create new ones?

- Bethesda has huge IPs that haven't received a new entry in years and will need 4-5 extra years to have a new game (Elder Scrolls or Fallout). What are you waiting for and why?

- Starfield was the only new IP in 2023 that entered the Top 10 of the most played games. Then, why are you wasting time and money on smaller, riskier and less profitable projects?

- Game Pass growth has stalled and it affects 20-25% of premium sales. Why should we sacrifice (part) of the huge IPs that we have recently acquired and that generate almost all your profits?

And a few more…

From the perspective of the ones focusing on numbers, many of the arguments make sense.

The issue is that these moves are colliding with a very different strategy that has been presented during years and that in the end has mainly failed from a hardware, software and even services perspective.

And now the shift on the strategy feels sudden and even brutal (with a very poor and insensitive execution), but the signs were likely there from years ago.

These are the kind of painful questions I have to deal with at my job from time to time. Especially after we got acquired. We were allowed to operate as normal for a while, but the Australian parent company has been slowly digging its teeth deeper and deeper into us. Some of the changes were for the better, some are awful.

The board won't care that Todd Howard wants to treat TES and Fallout like his own children. They want new best-seller games and they want them right now.
 

belairjeff

J->E Localization
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,324
"ResetEra doesn't understand capitalism, let me explain all the problems why it's so bad. Now do you get why they fired a bunch of people and weakened their goodwill and brand?"

Good post!
 

PleaseBeKind

Member
Oct 31, 2023
368
lol I'm doing fine. Im not in the industry. It's sad to see the city lose a prestigious studio but what can you do
Glad to hear that. Its been a while since I quit the Xbox ecosystem but i remember you were p active in this thread. Im pretty sure businesses shut down every across the country but still i figured id check on you
 

Granjinhaa

Member
Dec 28, 2023
3,522
If people are serious about wanting their hobby to keep these types of games around, they better get ready to accept a massive price increase in the cost of releases, and quick.
or, hear me out: just make cheaper stuff. instead of putting 500 people on 1 game, put them in 10 games.

Just feels weird to go "inflation is bad so them's the breaks" when these same people are behind the worst of many of the current economic realities. It's also rich to demand that Era users learn about capitalism when seemingly the trillion dollar mega corporation went blindly stumbling into this mess. Maybe the suits at MS should learn a little about how capitalism works.
indeed. but also, the truth is - while shareholders and the financial market control art and entertainment, this stuff will repeat itself, no matter the executives. line can't go up forever.
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
19,473
United States
Or just explore the scale generally. I know people freaked out about Hellblade at 50 but they'll have run the numbers and deduced that people won't pay 70 for an 8 hour game, whereas they will pay it for a 15-50 hour game.
I hope the data comes back good for this one. We'll see but I would absolutely continue to pay $50 for 8-10 hour games with productions values of HB2. Give me 100 of those a year.
 

Mr Evil 37

Member
Mar 7, 2022
11,317
I hope the data comes back good for this one. We'll see but I would absolutely continue to pay $50 for 8-10 hour games with productions values of HB2. Give me 100 of those a year.
Same. It worked for Sony with stuff like Lost Legacy and Miles (I know they're bigger IPs but still). It even worked with Hellblade 1.

Also, I think Hellblade will benefit from May being a relatively quiet month for big releases.
 

Golding

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,851
Honestly, a lot of craziness going on with Xbox right now.. emotions are crazy.. bringing out all type of crazy ideas out of people.

I might lay off here until the fuck Xbox crusade subsides
 

Sipahi

Member
Jan 30, 2021
562
I know its not likely but the only way Xbox can be 'saved' is by either
1. Changing leadership to a more aggressive team that can satiate the MS execs while keeping true to Xbox
2. Selling off ABK. Not likely but it would bring some of the 70B back and hopefully result in MS loosening the leash on Xbox.
3. (Most plausible) Game pass day one for 1st party is scrapped to increase revenue. They still come to game pass around 6 months after launch.

Its a rough patch for Xbox and the Industry. I hope the brand can survive the next 18 months without any major damage until the ship steadies.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,474
"ResetEra doesn't understand capitalism, let me explain all the problems why it's so bad. Now do you get why they fired a bunch of people and weakened their goodwill and brand?"

Good post!

Which is doubly funny because there were a bunch of people bringing up the realities and dangers of major corporate acquisitions for years and many also brought up Microsoft's well-earned and notorious reputation for buying up other companies and competition only to squander them and/or close them eventually. People were well aware of how capitalism worked and trying to tell people, but it was another thing entirely whether folks here cared enough to listen when their favored brand got a "win".
 

TitlePending

The Fallen
Dec 26, 2018
5,351
Very much this.

It doesn't help that the majority of Resetera at the same time despises capitalism and at the same time refuse to get a grip on how capitalism works, even if it's just a "know thy enemy" type situation. They're the people who come and watch a sports match and keep giving obnoxious commentary on the game, without knowing what the rules of the game are.

In the end, it's not that difficult. The console audience is stagnating while the demographic is aging causing the "collective free time" pool of the audience to shrink. Add the effect of f2p and live service games and that pool has dramatically shrunk for your typical games. AAA budgets have risen exponentially and there are ever more games being released. What's left is a bunch of publishers fighting each other for scraps if they don't seek alternative revenue be it letting go of platform exclusivity (Microsoft, Sony) or expanding their IP to other media (practically everyone) or subscriptions (Microsoft, Sony, EA, Ubisoft, Nintendo to lesser extent).

This means there's little room for AAA budget games that don't have potential for that media expansion. The risk is too large that you'll be spending six years of development and hundreds of millions of dollars on a game that just won't find the playerbase that it needs to make a profit. Long gone are the days where 3 million copies can be considered a success, especialy if you can't translate that game into an IP that can also spawn a tv series, or a movie, or something else.

So yeah, what do you do with a bunch of IP where the audience expects, and in the hardcore space DEMANDS, that you throw a large budget against them. You can't make Evil Within 3 for a smaller budget than you did previously. Making a HiFi Rush sequel? Sure, but just because of inflation you'll need to get at least 10-15% extra revenue from that sequel just to break even, and that's without the expectations of making it bigger and better and without higher fidelity consoles again demanding higher dev budgets.

I'd love to see the average Resetera poster put their job on the line just to make HiFi Rush 2 happen if they considered all those financial realities. Is it greed? Maybe. But you're making that game with investor money. Without investors, there would be no AAA, or even A gaming. Also, people love to forget that it's highly likely they're indirect investors as well since pension funds are a huge part of the investment pool.

Anyway, so you're a Microsoft executive and you need to allocate your budgets, which even at MS do still have a limit, and it's your job to assign the budgets to the studios with the highest potential. Tango Gameworks, a studio that's lost its main creative director and is thousands of miles away, and is solo in that timezone, and also hasn't had the type of hit that you'll need the coming decade? That's a danger. Arkane Austin, the studio that put out Prey and Redfall, makes expensive games but have failed to find an audience each time? That's a danger too.

I'm not saying I'm not sad for the people who lost their jobs. Getting fired is terrible ofcourse. But I do feel it's important to understand the financial realities this industry operates in instead of just projecting your hopes and dreams onto faceless corporations and being disappointed when those do not become reality.

And the audience is not blameless in this. That same crowd keeps demanding more and more fidelity. Your puddles lost reflections? Prepare for a backlash! You didn't time your surprise hit TV show with a game in the same franchise? Everyone calls you stupid. Redfall is a heaping dump? "Phil Spencer should've stepped in!" Microsoft lets Toys for Bob go independent? "I can't believe Phil Spencer didn't step in!" Game prices go from 50 USD to 70 USD? The sheer greed of these corporations, even though inflation has risen 80% in that same period, game development cost has risen exponentially and surprise, the audience buying your games have remained stagnant since 2008. Want to use AI to have the same output with a lower budget? That's a controversy too.

Sorry, had to get it out of my system. The evolution will inevitably be that these large publishers will push their budgets towards AAA games with recognisable, expandable IP while smaller indies will come into play and be ever more experimental with low budget games in the hopes of striking a chord with the audience and grow from there. This'll be the third or fourth time this happens in video games. And in twenty years, we can go hate Larian for mismanaging their projects and being 'anti-consumer', just like there was a time when Activision, EA and Ubisoft were promising new kids on the block.

A great write-up!

I look at my kids and feel a "need" to introduce them to great single player games like Final Fantasy, Zelda, Mario, etc. But all they want to play is Fortnite because that's how they spend time with their friends. I worry about the future for the kinds of games I grew up with.
 

Mr Evil 37

Member
Mar 7, 2022
11,317
I worry about the future for the kinds of games I grew up with.
Change is normal and unavoidable. But also, there are still plenty of big singleplayer games that get made, and these things are cyclical. Even when people were like "singleplayer games are dead" they still came out and the ones that come out now usually do very well. There will always be a place for all kinds of games.
 
Nov 3, 2023
144
Iowa
Very much this.

It doesn't help that the majority of Resetera at the same time despises capitalism and at the same time refuse to get a grip on how capitalism works, even if it's just a "know thy enemy" type situation. They're the people who come and watch a sports match and keep giving obnoxious commentary on the game, without knowing what the rules of the game are.

In the end, it's not that difficult. The console audience is stagnating while the demographic is aging causing the "collective free time" pool of the audience to shrink. Add the effect of f2p and live service games and that pool has dramatically shrunk for your typical games. AAA budgets have risen exponentially and there are ever more games being released. What's left is a bunch of publishers fighting each other for scraps if they don't seek alternative revenue be it letting go of platform exclusivity (Microsoft, Sony) or expanding their IP to other media (practically everyone) or subscriptions (Microsoft, Sony, EA, Ubisoft, Nintendo to lesser extent).

This means there's little room for AAA budget games that don't have potential for that media expansion. The risk is too large that you'll be spending six years of development and hundreds of millions of dollars on a game that just won't find the playerbase that it needs to make a profit. Long gone are the days where 3 million copies can be considered a success, especialy if you can't translate that game into an IP that can also spawn a tv series, or a movie, or something else.

So yeah, what do you do with a bunch of IP where the audience expects, and in the hardcore space DEMANDS, that you throw a large budget against them. You can't make Evil Within 3 for a smaller budget than you did previously. Making a HiFi Rush sequel? Sure, but just because of inflation you'll need to get at least 10-15% extra revenue from that sequel just to break even, and that's without the expectations of making it bigger and better and without higher fidelity consoles again demanding higher dev budgets.

I'd love to see the average Resetera poster put their job on the line just to make HiFi Rush 2 happen if they considered all those financial realities. Is it greed? Maybe. But you're making that game with investor money. Without investors, there would be no AAA, or even A gaming. Also, people love to forget that it's highly likely they're indirect investors as well since pension funds are a huge part of the investment pool.

Anyway, so you're a Microsoft executive and you need to allocate your budgets, which even at MS do still have a limit, and it's your job to assign the budgets to the studios with the highest potential. Tango Gameworks, a studio that's lost its main creative director and is thousands of miles away, and is solo in that timezone, and also hasn't had the type of hit that you'll need the coming decade? That's a danger. Arkane Austin, the studio that put out Prey and Redfall, makes expensive games but have failed to find an audience each time? That's a danger too.

I'm not saying I'm not sad for the people who lost their jobs. Getting fired is terrible ofcourse. But I do feel it's important to understand the financial realities this industry operates in instead of just projecting your hopes and dreams onto faceless corporations and being disappointed when those do not become reality.

And the audience is not blameless in this. That same crowd keeps demanding more and more fidelity. Your puddles lost reflections? Prepare for a backlash! You didn't time your surprise hit TV show with a game in the same franchise? Everyone calls you stupid. Redfall is a heaping dump? "Phil Spencer should've stepped in!" Microsoft lets Toys for Bob go independent? "I can't believe Phil Spencer didn't step in!" Game prices go from 50 USD to 70 USD? The sheer greed of these corporations, even though inflation has risen 80% in that same period, game development cost has risen exponentially and surprise, the audience buying your games have remained stagnant since 2008. Want to use AI to have the same output with a lower budget? That's a controversy too.

Sorry, had to get it out of my system. The evolution will inevitably be that these large publishers will push their budgets towards AAA games with recognisable, expandable IP while smaller indies will come into play and be ever more experimental with low budget games in the hopes of striking a chord with the audience and grow from there. This'll be the third or fourth time this happens in video games. And in twenty years, we can go hate Larian for mismanaging their projects and being 'anti-consumer', just like there was a time when Activision, EA and Ubisoft were promising new kids on the block.

A very good read that tends to echo my feelings/thoughts about it, nobody likes seeing a game they love not hit the mark but it seems Hi Fi just didn't, it's not the first time the general gaming audience got something wrong.
 

Granjinhaa

Member
Dec 28, 2023
3,522
It has been extremely widely demonstrated that general audience don't want this. Yes there is a handful of small games and indies that hit it big. The vast majority of them flop hard.
the vast majority of bloated $200 million dollar games also flop hard. in which case is the flop softer? also, what games are the ones that exploded and changed the industry recently, AAA's or AA/indies?

makes you think!
 

Det

Member
Jul 30, 2020
13,184
Same. It worked for Sony with stuff like Lost Legacy and Miles (I know they're bigger IPs but still). It even worked with Hellblade 1.

Also, I think Hellblade will benefit from May being a relatively quiet month for big releases.

It worked well for those but they were based on an existing IP/world they had fleshed out to an extent. Don't get me wrong, it's still a lot of work, but there was a foundation to build upon; with the crucial piece being the ROI aspect given they had a built-in audience, especially Miles. Throw that into a new IP and there's a lot more risk.

Not to say they shouldn't go for smaller content chunks, they (everyone) absolutely should.
 

CubeApple76

Member
Jan 20, 2021
6,805
Which is doubly funny because there were a bunch of people bringing up the realities and dangers of major corporate acquisitions for years but many also brought up Microsoft's well-earned and notorious reputation for buying up other companies and competition only to squander them and/or close them eventually. People were well aware of how capitalism worked and trying to tell people, but it was another thing entirely whether folks here cared enough to listen when their favored brand got a "win".
All of the issues outlined in the post stay the same irrespective of whether a company is independent or a subsidiary. The only thing that changes is that once acquired they no longer have final say in their destiny. But let's not kid ourselves and say that Arcane Austin would have been better off independent - if they were independent then likely they would have shuttered after Prey flopped, let alone after Redfall bombed. Of course with consolidation you run the risk of even profitable ventures being killed/absorbed if they aren't providing enough ROI, but the overall issues with the industry have very little to do with this.
 

Mr Evil 37

Member
Mar 7, 2022
11,317
It worked well for those but they were based on an existing IP/world they had fleshed out to an extent. Don't get me wrong, it's still a lot of work, but there was a foundation to build upon; with the crucial piece being the ROI aspect given they had a built-in audience, especially Miles. Throw that into a new IP and there's a lot more risk.

Not to say they shouldn't go for smaller content chunks, they (everyone) absolutely should.
I get that. But it shows that there is at least an appetite. As expensive as Hellblade was, I still don't think it was anywhere near something like Starfield or Fable.

Stuff like Plague Tale still finds success.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
44,138
All of the issues outlined in the post stay the same irrespective of whether a company is independent or a subsidiary. The only thing that changes is that once acquired they no longer have final say in their destiny. But let's not kid ourselves and say that Arcane Austin would have been better off independent - if they were independent then likely they would have shuttered after Prey flopped, let alone after Redfall bombed. Of course with consolidation you run the risk of even profitable ventures being killed/absorbed if they aren't providing enough ROI, but the overall issues with the industry have very little to do with this.
They would be better off if MS never got ABK though
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
19,473
United States
It worked well for those but they were based on an existing IP/world they had fleshed out to an extent. Don't get me wrong, it's still a lot of work, but there was a foundation to build upon; with the crucial piece being the ROI aspect given they had a built-in audience, especially Miles. Throw that into a new IP and there's a lot more risk.

Not to say they shouldn't go for smaller content chunks, they (everyone) absolutely should.
I think you're right on all of this. I just wish there was a path for these types of games. I'm sure a lot of people in the industry wished it as well.