Should there be a new OT?

  • Yes

    Votes: 444 53.4%
  • No

    Votes: 387 46.6%

  • Total voters
    831

Idas

Antitrusting By Keyboard
Member
Mar 20, 2022
2,071
They weren't forever back then tho. They had just started their run and I think the assumption was that they would eventually fall off for other things like had happened for decades. But they ended up not being fads. Minecraft ended up not being unique. Now there are 5 or 6 games that won't go away taking up tons of playing hours.

And maybe that changes the calculus for what it means to be a success when in Game Pass.

EDIT: In a way, I think the vision for Game Pass was actually to be the forever game model before it was discovered that you can do it with just one game.

According to the report from Newzoo, in 2023 the Top 10 games by average MAU had been on the market (on average):

- 9,6 years on PC
- 7,4 years on Playstation
- 7,2 years on Xbox
- 3,9 years on Switch

Only Switch had 3 recent games on the Top 10 (Mario Wonder, the wizard game and Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom). And then Starfield on Xbox.

Everything else was old or very old :p xD

The forever games are a serious challenge for the industry. No wonder that the big publishers want to develop less games and focus on big AAA + GaaS. At least that way you have a chance to succeed.

However, 2-3 big failures and you can go down. 😬

There is no easy solution to this.
 

MCD

Honest Work
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,067
I see.

Well it's important to note that "Asian Market" is a lot bigger than Japan. They've been investing in PC Games Pass, xCloud and id@xbox in SEA which is an indicator of understanding the region.

Mobile gaming is huge there, some of the biggest games in the past 5 years that no one talks about in this forum are shooters for smartphones and they come from that region.

There's also India, which once again has a huge mobile market and demands an even bigger attention as the government usually demands their own local version of the game.

They are doing great with South East Asia ngl especially from Indonesia but smaller games so they fly under the radar for most.

You also made me remember them signing NetEase to bring their games to Xbox. Hope they can fill the gacha void.

There is no way China lets MiHoyo be sold.

I mean, crazier things already happened. I don't see Xbox or someone from the West buying them though.

Xbox is better imo with Korean pubs like Pearl Abyss (Black Desert, Crimson Desert).
 

Caiusto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,082
I do wonder if it is difficult to maintain a Japanese studio when your main business is in the USA.
It is, yeah, that's why companies open local offices and hire people from that country to manage them.

Nintendo and Playstation would never be as successful as they are if they didn't open Nintendo of America and Sony Computer Entertainment America, respectively, back in the day.
 

Clippy

Member
Feb 11, 2022
2,229
Not really limited to this forum, but it's very funny seeing SE say we're bringing games to Xbox and some people react like they have to do that work personally.
 

solis74

Member
Jun 11, 2018
43,771
WOW!

GNYDzP1WIAApj4M
 

Mcbel

Member
Sep 6, 2023
985
According to the report from Newzoo, in 2023 the Top 10 games by average MAU had been on the market (on average):

- 9,6 years on PC
- 7,4 years on Playstation
- 7,2 years on Xbox
- 3,9 years on Switch

Only Switch had 3 recent games on the Top 10 (Mario Wonder, the wizard game and Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom). And then Starfield on Xbox.

Everything else was old or very old :p xD

The forever games are a serious challenge for the industry. No wonder that the big publishers want to develop less games and focus on big AAA + GaaS. At least that way you have a chance to succeed.

However, 2-3 big failures and you can go down. 😬

There is no easy solution to this.
Jesus Christ... Even 3.9 years is a lot IMO.
 

YozoraXV

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,098
According to the report from Newzoo, in 2023 the Top 10 games by average MAU had been on the market (on average):

- 9,6 years on PC
- 7,4 years on Playstation
- 7,2 years on Xbox
- 3,9 years on Switch

Only Switch had 3 recent games on the Top 10 (Mario Wonder, the wizard game and Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom). And then Starfield on Xbox.

Everything else was old or very old :p xD

The forever games are a serious challenge for the industry. No wonder that the big publishers want to develop less games and focus on big AAA + GaaS. At least that way you have a chance to succeed.

However, 2-3 big failures and you can go down. 😬

There is no easy solution to this.

I don't see that list changing in the next 10 years either except for new CODs and GTA6.

The new generation of gamers are just stuck in their ways and don't want change, it's just going to get worse going forward.
 

solis74

Member
Jun 11, 2018
43,771
According to the report from Newzoo, in 2023 the Top 10 games by average MAU had been on the market (on average):

- 9,6 years on PC
- 7,4 years on Playstation
- 7,2 years on Xbox
- 3,9 years on Switch

Only Switch had 3 recent games on the Top 10 (Mario Wonder, the wizard game and Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom). And then Starfield on Xbox.

Everything else was old or very old :p xD

The forever games are a serious challenge for the industry. No wonder that the big publishers want to develop less games and focus on big AAA + GaaS. At least that way you have a chance to succeed.

However, 2-3 big failures and you can go down. 😬

There is no easy solution to this.

Starfield did better than a lot of gamer hardcore bubble thought ;)
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,924
According to the report from Newzoo, in 2023 the Top 10 games by average MAU had been on the market (on average):

- 9,6 years on PC
- 7,4 years on Playstation
- 7,2 years on Xbox
- 3,9 years on Switch

Only Switch had 3 recent games on the Top 10 (Mario Wonder, the wizard game and Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom). And then Starfield on Xbox.

Everything else was old or very old :p xD

The forever games are a serious challenge for the industry. No wonder that the big publishers want to develop less games and focus on big AAA + GaaS. At least that way you have a chance to succeed.

However, 2-3 big failures and you can go down. 😬

There is no easy solution to this.

That is a really scary piece of data.
 
Jun 5, 2023
2,723
I think them closing Tango is because they are "spread too thin/wide" as Matt Booty said.

Meaning, they are the only ones in Japan while everyone else in US/UK/EU.

Different culture, different time zone, lack of expertise in Japanese/Asian market which means MS (Matt Booty) aren't able to manage them.

Plus the focus on big IPs.

Perhaps it sounds ridiculous and sad but it's how I see it.
Makes sense for physically closing a location, but doesn't sound smart from an overall content perspective. Maybe they thought they couldn't get consistent quality with the studio vs how hard it was to manage. We don't know what effects Mikami leaving had on retention of skilled staff too. He opened another studio....
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
19,597
United States
According to the report from Newzoo, in 2023 the Top 10 games by average MAU had been on the market (on average):

- 9,6 years on PC
- 7,4 years on Playstation
- 7,2 years on Xbox
- 3,9 years on Switch

Only Switch had 3 recent games on the Top 10 (Mario Wonder, the wizard game and Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom). And then Starfield on Xbox.

Everything else was old or very old :p xD

The forever games are a serious challenge for the industry. No wonder that the big publishers want to develop less games and focus on big AAA + GaaS. At least that way you have a chance to succeed.

However, 2-3 big failures and you can go down. 😬

There is no easy solution to this.
Yeah, and you can hear it in everything they have been saying lately. At the podcast biz update they talked about how these games are sucking a lot of oxygen out of the room. Booty gave the reason they needed to focus on 'priority' games as part of the reasoning for the shutdowns. To me, that says they are thinking they can't have so many of these smaller games on the books which is concerning for my gaming preferences. And concerning for quite a few XGS studios. Don't get me wrong, I love AAA bangers tho.

Like I mentioned, I think they thought of Game Pass itself as the forever game and they believed they would need to pump tons of games into it but what seems to be true is that the forever games are so sticky right now that they are having to face a reality where their overhead for content acquisition to put into their forever project isn't the play when others are getting massive engagement from ONE GAME.

Crazy times. Hope they can thread the needle and still salvage some of that original vision. Maybe through XGS proper.
 
Jun 5, 2023
2,723
According to the report from Newzoo, in 2023 the Top 10 games by average MAU had been on the market (on average):

- 9,6 years on PC
- 7,4 years on Playstation
- 7,2 years on Xbox
- 3,9 years on Switch

Only Switch had 3 recent games on the Top 10 (Mario Wonder, the wizard game and Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom). And then Starfield on Xbox.

Everything else was old or very old :p xD

The forever games are a serious challenge for the industry. No wonder that the big publishers want to develop less games and focus on big AAA + GaaS. At least that way you have a chance to succeed.

However, 2-3 big failures and you can go down. 😬

There is no easy solution to this.
Good Info as always Idas. Xbox has absolutely been screwing up, but it's more than just make more GOTY tier games. This also explains Sony's issues with budget on their AAA. Hmm spend 20 a season on skins or pay 70 for a one and done or bloated open world? Comparisons like this are why I believe the industry is shifting. While popular, good single player games are becoming more expensive and financially risky. Even when they succeed.
 

Vico

Member
Jan 3, 2018
6,634
I don't blame Jez.
He probably thinks Sarah is a double agent or something. It's an easy mistake to make.
 

The Lord of Cereal

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Jan 9, 2020
9,922
Oddly, the full-throated strategy shift for Squeenix to include Xbox has done more for me to be optimistic about the platform than anything Xbox has done all year.
It's like I've been saying for ages, Xbox hardware may be faltering (although, so is PlayStation for now) but they've gotten to a point where third party support is possibly the best it's ever been. And to be completely honest I still feel like they're investing more into the future of the platform even if hardware turns into a niche
Jesus Christ... Even 3.9 years is a lot IMO.
That's the industry these days and how it's been trending for years now. Everything is all about GAAS games and post purchase monetization. And it's not helped by the fact that younger gamers, if they play on console at all, only play a couple of those forever games and that's it.

Lmao even as a fake rumor that just makes no sense considering the massive success of Sea of Thieves. MS is probably hoping and praying that Rare can produce another smash hit with Neverwild
 

knightmawk

Member
Dec 12, 2018
7,558
We can speculate all we want about the closure of Tango, but until someone comes out and publicly says otherwise (which they probably won't because why would the?), the only explanation that holds enough water is that they weren't making enough money.

The idea that it's difficult to manage a Japanese studio as an American company makes sense, until you mention that that American company is one of the largest in the world and has had Japanese subsidiaries since the 80's and is still actively hiring people in Japan. Not to mention that the current era of Xbox is famous for "Hands off" management, sometimes to their own detriment.

I've seen some people speculate that they needed to shut down someone and they chose Tango because Mikami left and the studio didn't have the same prestige without him. Which starts to fall about when you consider that Mikami hasn't directed a game since the first Evil Within, and also that they shut down Arkane Austin, where Harvey Smith was still actively directing games. Tameem Antoniades having recently left Ninja Theory doesn't necessarily invalidate this theory, but it does add to it in not great ways.

Ultimately all of the other things could have contributed to the choice, could have contributed to picking Tango and Arkane over another studio, but either way, this wasn't a decision that was a long time coming because of some flaws at the studios.

Xbox became an 80 billion dollar business, and now they're refocusing resources, so Tango, Arkane, Roundhouse and Alphadog became line items. Maybe there was a list of bottom earners and Booty or Spencer got to pick from the list, and I don't think any other pairing on that list would make anyone feel better. It's weird because I always felt that could have been the same situation when they closed Lionhead. Spencer came in and had to close some studios, and he chose Lionhead. And I have defended that decision to some extent in the past. I wasn't happy with it, but the state of Xbox at the time, it felt inevitable. Xbox isn't exactly flourishing right now either, but it's not the same situation now as it was in 2017. Even in a few years with hindsight I'm sure I'll look back at this and still think it was a bonehead move.

I honestly wouldn't be that surprised if in a few years they're making some acquisitions in Japan or Korea though, when Xbox has settled into the shape they wanna be beside Activision. Maybe this is an every 7 or so years thing for Xbox now. Close some studios, then buy some new ones. Wasn't it around 2010 that they closed Ensamble, FASA, Aces and Digital Anvil?

Maybe they'll try to win back trust by announcing their dedicated handheld this year. It won't win back trust, but it'd still be rad as hell.



I'm not confident that any individual studio is completely safe from being shut down, but Rare definitely seems like one of the safer ones. Regardless of all that though, the part about Nintendo buying the IP is what signals this is obviously bullshit. At best maybe fans trying to will something into existence by getting enough people to repeat it, as if Nintendo would make a new Banjo game even if they owned the IP and not just put Banjo in Mario Kart.
 

Gjallarsean

Member
Oct 10, 2018
779
I'm not confident that any individual studio is completely safe from being shut down, but Rare definitely seems like one of the safer ones.
As much as I think nobody is safe, I'd agree, Rare seems like one of the least likely to be shut down. I think folks underestimate how much Sea of Thieves pulls in from their microtransaction store with various ship sets, pets, outfits, etc. Nothing like Fortnite or the other giants of the GAAS space - but it continues to make money, and probably guys Rare some more time and leeway compared to other studios.
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
19,597
United States
A major third party publisher (Ubisoft with the next Ass Creed) skipping Xbox One but creating a PS4 version is pretty unfortunate given the idea of generationless gaming being fostered by Xbox. I think it is a significant thing tbh. Hopefully this doesn't happen even quicker for the Nextbox and Series console development since the console sales are even less than One.