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It's not disrespect. Forza Horizon series is as close to perfect as a racing game gets.
But it's undeniable that racing games do have less systems to nail. They don't have to worry about things like the story, dialogue, and writing--things action games are judged on and things that are very subjective.
Woah, I'm not here for the Tamoor Hussain slander, either. I may not agree with his take on how big of a deal coop and forge missing are per se (and generally on a lot of topics in gaming, actually), but he's still pretty good as video game journalists go. I respect Tam's analyses because I know he knows the industry, has real sources, and takes time to try to understand what's happening. That doesn't mean I think he's always right (again, far from it), but I trust that he's Thought About It far more than I trust that Tim has Thought About It (not to say that Tim is stupid or uncritical or anything like that per se).
And yea, Horizon feels like a known quantity, but I think the reason people aren't complaining about HZD and HFW being Ubi-like is because IMO there's nothing inherently wrong with being Ubi-like. The gameplay is totally fine, if you can seat it in an interesting setting with a compelling story. I think it's more that people are uncertain about Halo, afraid of change, and thus are reaching for things to kind of explain that subjective unease. And thus, a narrative is born. The flip side is that the narrative will fizzle away harmlessly if Halo comes out and people's uncertainty and fear are satisfactorily assuaged. (But then, some of them will tell us that OF COURSE Halo was always going to be successful because the richest company in the world paid billions for it and it's the 20th anniversary and people are just biased for Halo and blah blah blah loll).
The wild plays for me would be in February - Saints Row reboot and KOF. Volition coming off a major failure in Agents of Mayhem and a middling response to SR4. Now with a major reboot coming that had a mixed initial response (but with a product they seem to believe in), having a lot of eyes and players giving it a chance could be exactly what they need to stand out in a crowded February going head to head against Elden Ring, which is looking to be yet another From juggernaut. (Plus, Xbox seems to have been rebuffed by From for marketing, so they may have both the capital and the desire to pick something else up instead.) Course.. maybe Volition just pushes the game? Who knows. This is yet another Embracer joint, via Deep Silver this time.
KOF would be wild and out of nowhere. But Xbox is not associated with fighting games right now and I've heard people complaining that fighters have been kinda neglected recently on GP. There's KI, Injustice 2, and DBFZ just recently. Having a major new fighting game launching onto the service would be a great signal to a really strong niche of players who have every reason to go with Sony this gen again, if MS doesn't make moves. We've seen KOF do reveals with Xbox a couple times already IIRC, and IMO if they don't make a play for Xbox players, many PlayStation fans will skip it in favor of H:FW the next day.
Journalists are incentivized to create narratives and/or follow narratives. If you're not doing either, you're not gonna be doing very well. That can be jumping on negativity on a game. Or joining the positivity bandwagon. Or it can be bucking the trend and trying to develop a counter narrative. But there's a reason why "myth busting" or "fact checking" in media and especially games media just doesn't have an audience (unless it comes with a heaping helping of insults or finger pointing or anger).
And yea, Horizon feels like a known quantity, but I think the reason people aren't complaining about HZD and HFW being Ubi-like is because IMO there's nothing inherently wrong with being Ubi-like. The gameplay is totally fine, if you can seat it in an interesting setting with a compelling story. I think it's more that people are uncertain about Halo, afraid of change, and thus are reaching for things to kind of explain that subjective unease. And thus, a narrative is born. The flip side is that the narrative will fizzle away harmlessly if Halo comes out and people's uncertainty and fear are satisfactorily assuaged. (But then, some of them will tell us that OF COURSE Halo was always going to be successful because the richest company in the world paid billions for it and it's the 20th anniversary and people are just biased for Halo and blah blah blah loll).
Yea, I think Tiny Tina would be a great dark horse Game Pass deal. I do expect it to get more attention over the next 5 months, though. I'm not sure what Embracer's and Gearbox's stance toward Game Pass is right now either. I think there's a chance. Wouldn't be surprised to see Midnight Sun end up on Game Pass in March, either. Marvel saw Game Pass really help Avengers for a bit. Midnight Sun isn't a big release. Games like Chimera Squad did ok, but that level of reception certainly wouldn't be enough for Marvel. Of course, we'll likely see more and I'd expect this game to be much larger and polished than Chimera Squad.. but still.
The wild plays for me would be in February - Saints Row reboot and KOF. Volition coming off a major failure in Agents of Mayhem and a middling response to SR4. Now with a major reboot coming that had a mixed initial response (but with a product they seem to believe in), having a lot of eyes and players giving it a chance could be exactly what they need to stand out in a crowded February going head to head against Elden Ring, which is looking to be yet another From juggernaut. (Plus, Xbox seems to have been rebuffed by From for marketing, so they may have both the capital and the desire to pick something else up instead.) Course.. maybe Volition just pushes the game? Who knows. This is yet another Embracer joint, via Deep Silver this time.
KOF would be wild and out of nowhere. But Xbox is not associated with fighting games right now and I've heard people complaining that fighters have been kinda neglected recently on GP. There's KI, Injustice 2, and DBFZ just recently. Having a major new fighting game launching onto the service would be a great signal to a really strong niche of players who have every reason to go with Sony this gen again, if MS doesn't make moves. We've seen KOF do reveals with Xbox a couple times already IIRC, and IMO if they don't make a play for Xbox players, many PlayStation fans will skip it in favor of H:FW the next day.
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And those games don't have to worry about car physics, streaming a world at 200mph and much more... Your point? Making racing games is hard and I'd say nailing a RPG is just a different challenge than a racing game. But not necessarily easier or harder to nail.
Am I in the minority party that think Halo Infinite will be 80-84 metacritic and to be the title from Xbox with the lowest score?
I like Halo and I really wish it to be outstanding.
But I just do not have the high confidence to 343i like what I had to Playground games.
I like Halo and I really wish it to be outstanding.
But I just do not have the high confidence to 343i like what I had to Playground games.
If somebody genuinely said Halo Infinite would have a sub 70 MC then they don't belong in the gaming industry. Probably the most clueless take in a long time. Is there a possibility it won't do well? Fine, sure, but after the flights? Nope. Ridiculous. I swear Xbox games get held to a harder standard than other companies, and that's in no way taking away from the masterful work Nintendo and Sony does. Can't deny it though.
Regarding Halo Infinite scoring above 90 on Metacritic: I'd say it is highly unlikely. Part of the problem is that the single player footage still looks good but not great to a lot of people (myself included). Nothing they've said about it sounds particularly special either. I suspect it will be a solid/fun time. Around 83-87 including the multi-player.
I'm not sure why you're being so defensive. All a racing game is supposed to nail is gameplay. No one judges it based on largely subjective things like the story not being emotionally gripping/deep enough/poor dialogue/writing. Those things are just not a factor for a racing game. It's undeniable. Forza Horizon can get 10/10s for nailng fun gameplay and beautiful world. For Fable, it won't be enough--it'll be also judged based on writing and story, etc.
Do you think like that they just download a car physics and handling file from the internet or something?
Found an early unboxing video:
Looks like this is the first game that uses the new-style case for Xbox games.
Looks like this is the first game that uses the new-style case for Xbox games.
It's not, it was minecraft dungeons.
Minecraft Dungeons: Ultimate Edition (PS4/Switch/Xbox) Unboxing
If you'd Like a copy for yourself, you can purchase it from our website and eBay Store https://bit.ly/3vZH60T / https://ebay.to/3vZBxQbThanks for watching ev...
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I am defensive, because your takes don't make sense. Just in this post you said racing games only need to nail gameplay... How so? Graphics, sound design, ... matter. Just imagine FH5 would look like a 360 game. Do you think it would go anywhere near 92? Nope.
Then you go on saying nobody judges a racing game by subjective things... Of course everyone does! Physics are subjective, AI is subjective, soundtrack? Subjective. Setting? Subjective. And so on... .
I agree with all of this and I'm part of the problem, because I certainly expected all of these things in the past and even in Halo Infinite. I thought it would be manageable in these now 6 years and with the additional help of several studios.
Having to deliver all these features is probably one of the reasons (if not the reason) as to why they decided to go with a platform for the next 10 years. Much more feasible to make all these features once in the 10 years rather than making them again again with traditional 3 year releases.
Nice.It's not, it was minecraft dungeons.
Minecraft Dungeons: Ultimate Edition (PS4/Switch/Xbox) Unboxing
If you'd Like a copy for yourself, you can purchase it from our website and eBay Store https://bit.ly/3vZH60T / https://ebay.to/3vZBxQbThanks for watching ev...
RPG will be judged by their story of course. But Fable won't be judged by it's ultimately walking/driving physics, though. Racing games are. Different challenges.
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You keep conflating what a judge likes and the actual technical achievement it takes to make a competent racing game. Even if that judge doesn't like racing games...it doesn't change the fact that racing games do in fact incorporate stories and cutscenes and scene composition and all that jazz. And the fact it's a racing game doesn't mean auto good. Plenty of bad ones exist.
itsd entirely possible it will get low 80s. Though I find it unlikely given many of the misgivings of past games seem to be addressed. The thing they need to nail to get upper 80s is a good campaign. As in, its fun, of decent length, has decent writing and feels complete. Will they be able to do that? No idea, but the lead writer (I think is the lead writer) is from the Arkham games and those stories are great so Im optimistic
Assume you are referring to my point about Tim. It's here, 1:24:00 into the prediction episode. While he is musing about it, he asks himself how Crackdown 3 scored, he looks it up and saw it got 60, then goes "yep, stick with my pick" 🙃
Predictions of Metacritic Scores in 2021 - Kinda Funny Gamescast Ep. 57
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Nah, the real reason is GamePass. That's why Forza will also be a platform too. Probably a bunch of the games from Microsoft (not all of them, of course) will also be like that, with more update content (events, DLC, seasonal updates, etc.). Like what GTAV, Fortnite, etc. do. I had a conversation with one MS dev once and they told me that GP was the reason they were taking that approach.
The lead writer of Fable is Anna Megill, one of the main responsible for the world and writing of CONTROL and Dishonored: Death of the Outsider. Pretty sure the writing and story will be top notch.
Nah, it is not. Halo would always be a platform going forward since it always had it's roots in live service stuff. The reason it is releasing with less stuff is development issues, not Game Pass either.
If you're Canadian, Gamestop Canada currently has some Halo Elite controllers available. Aside from MS store they are the only ones selling them. Probably won't last long. https://www.gamestop.ca/Xbox/Games/...roller-series-2-halo-infinite-limited-edition
See my answer above. I'm not sure why what I said is controversial. Racing games, like sports games are judged based entirely on the gameplay/graphics. You nail them, and you're done. In action games you have to nail other systems like story/writing/dialogue, etc.
All those things you mentioned I consider part of gameplay. I already mentioned graphics, too, so I'm not sure why you're talking about it. Yes, some people may not like gameplay, but considering that Playground found a gold formula that the reviewers love and every new game is an evolution of the previous one, 90+ MC is no surprise for me, because the formula is near perfect already and something like poor writing/story can't bring the score down--because it's just not a factor.
It doesn't lessen Playground's achievement, but you have to admit that getting a 90+ for Forza Horizon is significantly easier for Playground than it will be to get 90+ for Fable. Action games are judged based on the factors Playground games have never been judged on. It's as simple as that. It's not an insult toward Forza Horizon. It's the reason why there haven't been 90+ MC action games this year.
I sorta agree with this. Having a good story makes a huge impression on people, and Forza Horizon just lacks that almost entirely. Im sure this is one of the reasons it gets snubbed at GOTY awards, even if it shouldnt.
I'm of the belief that Halo Infinite will get around an 84 - 87 metacritic, with the consensus being:
+ Excellent gameplay innovations that truly modernize the Halo sandbox for the next generation of consoles
+ - Multiplayer is an awesome playground of modes and experiences, albeit a bit surprisingly light on maps
- Campaign has its moments, dragged down by slightly bloated world and mission design with a narrative that is too heavy for Halo Infinite to be considered a full on spiritual reboot.
- Inconsistent visual presentation, with reviewers likely indicating they were expecting more out of the delay or something along those lines
I have to disagree. FH5 is a magnificent game and a technical marvel, but it's still just a game and they're right. Racing games are not easy to make and that's not the point, but there's just less moving parts which you can fuck up. Compared to other genres, FH5 gets way bigger part of the review scores based on technical success.
If you don't have a story, you can't have a bad story. If you don't have actual characters, you can't have annoying and unrelatable MC, stupid sidekicks or bad voice acting that really matters in the game. If you don't have NPCs, those can't be uninteresting, have idiotic AI. If you don't have enemies, you don't need to have combat system or worry about enemy AI and awareness. If you don't need to animate humans or animals, you can't have unrealistic and unresponsive animation or uncanny facial animation. If you know that you can base the whole gameplay loop to driving a car, you don't necessarily need to invent new gameplay mechanics which eventually might not work or make all the other gameplay systems work together.
Of course racing games have these elements, but not as a major part of the game.
It's not so cut and dried. Things moving very fast can also help with more drastic LoD changes, because you don't see them when you're moving fast. A human main character probably has way more polygons than a car and there's just tons more moving parts. It's just easier to animate a car or make shiny parts look good compared to something like skin. Physics simulation isn't exclusive to racing games.
Like say what you will but Forza Horizon game getting 90+ is way more likely than Fable getting similar scores, because these games just are reviewed on pretty different merits.
You're missing the point.
I must have missed something, but where does it show Forza as a platform? Everything ive seen says the opposite
I'm not. I understand that it is a completely genre altogether and that FH5 being great doesn't mean that Fable will be great. I am pretty sure, however, that the world building and story of the game will be interesting because of it's writing team, not that the game itself will be great. That's why i quoted the world/story part of this discussion. I have confidence in Playground, but i can understand the skepticism.
I'm sure you were.
He probably means Motorsport.
Ah, potentially, though we know very little about the new motorsport. In general, I get the worry as it makes financial sense. However, once you start getting too many service games, you risk reducing interaction with each, which decreases their value and thus, decreases the extra income they generate through that platform
Agree
Both genres are just as hard as each other for devs to make.
Precisely. You explained what I meant much better than I did. For all those things to turn out great is very rare, and there are simply more systems for people/reviewers to be unhappy about in an action game.
Seems like it yeah.
Remember Flight Sim wasnt really a "game" also
Jeez, a lot of pages to catch up on overnight.
I know the thread has moved on, but I just want to say: can we not antagonise one another based on preferences/opinions. I think we all know what Tiago's likes and dislikes are at this point, and we don't need to be 'calling him out' every time he posts. He's allowed to have his opinion on things, and voice them here.
I'm not sure he needs to be striving for objectivity in his opinions. Also, let's not forget that a lot of people interact with Era with English as a second language.
I know the thread has moved on, but I just want to say: can we not antagonise one another based on preferences/opinions. I think we all know what Tiago's likes and dislikes are at this point, and we don't need to be 'calling him out' every time he posts. He's allowed to have his opinion on things, and voice them here.
I'm not sure he needs to be striving for objectivity in his opinions. Also, let's not forget that a lot of people interact with Era with English as a second language.
I really think what will made Halo infinite +90MC is the mission design & overall flow of the campaign.
Since it's non linear it need to be stimulative through it's sandbox/moment to moment gameplay like Botw did but also the principal mission need to deliver too.
Since it's non linear it need to be stimulative through it's sandbox/moment to moment gameplay like Botw did but also the principal mission need to deliver too.
I disagree with the notion that racing games are easier to make than RPG. The challenges are just different. I do agree however with your last argument, because for PG specifically making a RPG will be harder, since that's their first RPG. Whereas they nailed the FH formula. But I think making FH1 was just as hard as making Fable.
If you don't have car physics, you can't have bad car physics. If you don't have car, you can't have bad looking or wrong sounding cars. These things really matter in those games. If you don't have opponents, those can't be uninteresting (to race against), have idiotic AI. If you don't have opponents you don't need to train them for each track and worry about them racing believably and have awareness for the track and other cars. You don't need to teach them how to drive with different cars. That's hard to do.
Point is you can make a list for both genre that either shows challenges the other genre typically doesn't face or not to the same degree. For instance sound is important for every game. But nobody will judge the sound of a fairy in fable the same way car sounds are judged in racing games. For the latter there are real life examples and racing games are demanded to nail them. Is there a real life example of a fairy?
Well of course not. But car physics are a huge and massive undertaking. Furthermore those need to be realistic in FH and even more so FM case. Nobody really judges how a shockwave spell in Fable interacts with the enemies and how accurate the enemies will fly away. It doesn't need to be realistic. Racing games do need to have a form of realism, even those sim arcade games.
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The idea that a racing game has "less" moving parts to be worried about is absurd. As is the idea that it is a genre that is more seen through a technical lenses, as opposed to a narrative first/third person shooter. Subjectivity in what we think of a game exists within every genre, and it certainly exists within an arcadey open world racer. It's why there are constant discussions about the structure of the recent games vs the old games.
I can understand the reasoning behind: well, they making a good racer does not mean they will make a good rpg. The idea that getting a 90+ racer is easier than getting a 90+ RPG does not make any sense.
While a racer won't need to worry about narrative (mostly), they do need to worry about a ton of stuff that other games do not need to worry about. Game design stuff, level design within an open world, AI between racing opponents, progression structure, customization, multiplayer/online, game modes, different feels for different types of car, different game feel for different types of roads, and so on.
Every style of game has it's own set of challenges. Not being sure that a developer of one style will fit another is completely reasonable, saying that making a 90+ game in one style is easier, though, does not make any sense. Saying that making one style of game is easier, then, is plain ignorance in how game development works.
I can understand the reasoning behind: well, they making a good racer does not mean they will make a good rpg. The idea that getting a 90+ racer is easier than getting a 90+ RPG does not make any sense.
While a racer won't need to worry about narrative (mostly), they do need to worry about a ton of stuff that other games do not need to worry about. Game design stuff, level design within an open world, AI between racing opponents, progression structure, customization, multiplayer/online, game modes, different feels for different types of car, different game feel for different types of roads, and so on.
Every style of game has it's own set of challenges. Not being sure that a developer of one style will fit another is completely reasonable, saying that making a 90+ game in one style is easier, though, does not make any sense. Saying that making one style of game is easier, then, is plain ignorance in how game development works.
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