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AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
I said it in the other thread: If there is one mega franchise that has earned to have a white dude protagonist without being accused of not pushing for diversity enough it's modern post-Disney Star Wars.

-The last videogame had a WoC as protagonist.
-The Mandalorian stars a Chilean actor
-The three episodes Star a white Woman with a very diverse supporting cast
-Rogue one same thing as the episodes
-Only Solo stars a white me and still has a strong supporting and diverse cast.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
I do agree that Star Wars and white dudes are like this symbiotic bond that can't seem to be detached from each other for better or worse. I mean like the only black representation in terms of Jedi is Mace Windu and that one chick who is technically an alien I think. Mace Windu is "cool" but I say that in the loosest terms as all that exists of his character is his look and his talents.
I just watched the Episode IX panel and the only white dudes in the stage other than the moderator were J.J. (director) and the guy that wears the Chewbacca costume and this is never even on screen. Everyone sitting there were white, black, Asian women, one black dude and one Latino.

I don't see why you'd still say post-Disney Star Wars Can still be so closet associated with white dudes.
 
OP
OP
Veelk

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,711
Alright, so I didn't mean to post the thread and ditch, but I hastely wrote everything out shortly after the Jedi: Fallen Order trailer came out, and then a half hour later, I had to go to work.

I come home and find I got 600+ replies. So I guess it's wierd that I, the OP, have to ask this, but how did this thread go, more or less? If I go through it, is it mostly a graveyard, or has discussion actually been productive? Can I be proud of you collection of miscreants for once?
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
I just watched the Episode IX panel and the only white dudes in the stage other than the moderator were J.J. (director) and the guy that wears the Chewbacca costume and this is never even on screen. Everyone sitting there were white, black, Asian women, one black dude and one Latino.

I don't see why you'd still say post-Disney Star Wars Can still be so closet associated with white dudes.
They are not the lead and the story revolves around skywalker saga. Which is what....
 
Oct 30, 2017
2,206
The use of generic or boring isn't the right critique here. Saying you're dissapointed that it's another white lead because you wish to see more representation is a proper critique.

It wouldn't matter if the character was asian, black, white, latino, orange or blue. It literally doesn't change anything to how the narrative would be developed. The Star Wars universe doesn't need to explain itself and why someone is this gender or that race and how they got there. The character can be anyone and it would work.

The character being white doesn't make it boring, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. But in a industry with a majority of characters still being white, especially Star Wars leads, it's more disappointing than anything. Be curious to know what the thought process was when making those decisions.
 
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AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
They are not the lead and the story revolves around skywalker saga. Which is what....
Bullshit. Rey is the main character of this trilogy. She's who has the force awaken inside herself. She's the biggest character who's front and center in the poster in Ep7, she's the one who goes to train with the legendary Jedi Master. Sure there's a big ensemble cast but she's the main character. Right now there are no living Skywalkers even (she could be one for all we know).
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Can we please have an AAA with a gay male protagonist for the first time in gaming history? Nah let's have the 55647548647th straight white dude.
Not the same but we're about to get a huge triple A story driven (non player choice-y) game starring a non sexualized openly lesbian woman with The Last of Us II. I know it's not the same but that's progress.
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
Bullshit. Rey is the main character of this trilogy. She's who has the force awaken inside herself. She's the biggest character who's front and center in the poster in Ep7, she's the one who goes to train with the legendary Jedi Master. Sure there's a big ensemble cast but she's the main character. Right now there are no living Skywalkers even (she could be one for all we know).
How is that bullshit? it's called the skywalker saga.
 

J_Atlas

Member
Apr 11, 2019
391
What did you think of Connor from Assassin's Creed 3 and Delsin from inFAMOUS: Second Son?

Edit: Saw your response above. I thought it was great that Ubisoft at least decided to have an actual consultant of the tribe they were depicting involved in Assassin's Creed 3's development. Sucker Punch didn't appear to go that far with it.


I've yet to meet a native american that was happy with ac3's protagonist. I'm sure there are a few but most I've met who have played it have been disappointed or upset by connor. Its good they consulted someone, but I still stand by the best portrayal we have, just as a whole people is Thunder in the new killer instinct, and the only one i'd qualify as "Good representation"
 

LuckyLinus

Member
Jun 1, 2018
1,938
As a semi-ginger dude its probably the first time since Crono Trigger I can remember having ginger-male representation.

And for those that arent ginger dudes and cant relate: we get picked on for it, alot, through most of our lives. It feels really nice to have a character like this.

I know it sounds stupid but its a real thing that no-one takes seriously, its just okey to bully gingers.
 
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gigaslash

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,122
I don't think that being PoC or female makes a character any more interesting (at a first glance) than being a white male. I can't really imagine how exactly would it make a character more interesting. Gender or race aren't interesting.
That being said, Fallen Order's guy doesn't really have much going on for him which could differentiate him from a myriad of other MCs in western games. Like, Marcus Fenix, for example: you see him once and you never forget who he is. Sure, he's ugly AF, but boy does he stand out. I doubt anyone is going to have the same reaction to the Fallen Order guy.
 

Butterworth

Alt account
Banned
Feb 5, 2019
465
Imagine being forced to eat a stack of pancakes every day. Sure, every stack is different, some stacks are even tasty as all fuck, but it's pancakes all the same. At some point, you ain't even going to care what the taste is like, you're just tired of pancakes.

Comparing pancakes and a person, let's not forget the fault people had in the original thread was the skin colour and gender. I just find it ridiculous. It sounds really bad imo.
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
Comparing pancakes and a person, let's not forget the fault people had in the original thread was the skin colour and gender. I just find it ridiculous. It sounds really bad imo.
It's not a person though, it's just like plain pancakes. The thing in question is a consumer-able, created and manufactured to be the same as almost everything else. Despite the many options to make something else, more original then a regular pancakes. A whole galaxy worth.
 

Butterworth

Alt account
Banned
Feb 5, 2019
465
It's not a person though, it's just like plain pancakes. The thing in question is a consumer-able, created and manufactured to be the same as almost everything else. Despite the many options to make something else, more original then a regular pancakes. A whole galaxy worth.
I'm sorry, but the pancake comparison doesn't do it for me. People are reducing this character down to visual appearances, rather than waiting to see something bigger. If you care so much for the pancake metaphor, then you are judging the pancake by its appearance rather than taste (lmao, fucking pancakes, really?). I don't believe in dodging games purely on appearances, it just leaves a bad taste, that's all.
 
Apr 21, 2018
6,969
I mean, it's not just being male and white. He is just boring in general. No eye patch, scars, weird hair, robotic limbs, extra alien appendages, he doesn't even seem like he has an interesting or unique personality.

Why not give him red hair, tons of freckles, an awkward appearance, or somewhat overweight or something. Anything. It's just a generic average white Luke Skywalker type.

TBH I don't think making him black changes that necessarily either if they don't make the character itself interesting. Just turning him into Finn or Franklyn or some black character we have seen before is better but still derivative.

It's as if they actually believe the one dimension word and characters in the Star Wars universe are interesting enough that they can make the main character this way. Let's hope the game has some great secondary characters and NPCs.

One of the posters mentioned making him an android or a robot. Yes! Great idea and would have gotten my attention right away.

It actually makes me question the writers on these games.
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
I'm sorry, but the pancake comparison doesn't do it for me. People are reducing this character down to visual appearances, rather than waiting to see something bigger. If you care so much for the pancake metaphor, then you are judging the pancake by its appearance rather than taste (lmao, fucking pancakes, really?). I don't believe in dodging games purely on appearances, it just leaves a bad taste, that's all.

Perhaps a better explanation would be the value of perspective and context. Different perspectives based on gender, race, or sexual preference are going to provide different context to scenes. That context can be both textual and metatextual. This extra element can make a new perspective feel very refreshing compared to one they have seen many times. It can provide tension in unexpected places, and even make things as simple as basic romances feel different. People who say they are disappointed by the fact that the lead is a white male, are not saying that there are no good stories to tell with that protagonist, but more that it is a story that will likely struggle to find any unique or surprising context, or flavor to go back to the pancake analogy.

The basic concept is that people are familiar with the tropes most commonly associated with a lead like this, and that familiarity can create a sense of predictability to this story. Obviously there are other elements like performance and writing that could change opinions, but all we have is a trailer to draw our initial opinions.

All of this also ignores the concept of representation and its value to many fans. That has been discussed a lot on this thread though, and on some levels is self-explanatory.
 

electroaffe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,200
Berlin
As a semi-ginger dude its probably the first time since Crono Trigger I can remember having ginger-male representation.

And for those that arent ginger dudes and cant relate: we get picked on for it, alot, through most of our lives. It feels really nice to have a character like this.

I know it sounds stupid but its a real thing that no-one takes seriously, its just okey to bully gingers.

Thought the same watching the trailer. Also he seems to be more "human" and sensitive and not the next muscular, middle-aged, flawless action-hero. Some people don't want diversity, they want certain ethnical minorities to take the lead roles. And this kind of diversity is important, but it's not the only one. I'm white male, but I don't feel represented by Nathan Drake or Chris Redfield. Actually, I can empathise with Clementine and Max Caulfield much more than with most male protagonists.
So I don't think it's good to criticise every game with a white male. It's not like we are all the same and had enough representation in media. We should criticize the whole industry for not representing poc (and also LGBT people, and actually also many white ethnicites like Eastern Europeans) in a satisfying way.
 

Melchiah

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,190
Helsinki, Finland
Honestly, the thing that makes this guy generic in a Star Wars game isn't the fact that he's a white guy, it's the fact that he's human. With all the weirdo aliens and droids out there, you could easily make your game stand out more just by going for the next level in diversity.

Agreed. It's always disappointing when Sci-Fi games/movies/series go for a human lead character, instead of an alien. I guess the idea is to make the protagonist more relatable, but it's just boring when there's such a wide variety of options compared to other genres.
 

Butterworth

Alt account
Banned
Feb 5, 2019
465
People who say they are disappointed by the fact that the lead is a white male, are not saying that there are no good stories to tell with that protagonist, but more that it is a story that will likely struggle to find any unique or surprising context

So why don't they say that rather than the responses on the original trailer thread? And how will having a White MC also mean a story that doesn't find any unique or surprising context? It doesn't make sense, that context or story isn't down to someone's Skin. It's down to the writers or world they are creating or writing in. What you are saying comes across to me as, choosing a different Mc purely on a Visual basis, will create a unique experience, which is just untrue. It might allow them to, but it's up to the writers to make it so. Not the look of the MC.

The basic concept is that people are familiar with the tropes most commonly associated with a lead like this, and that familiarity can create a sense of predictability to this story.

What are these basic tropes though? And if it's so predictable, what is the expected outcome to the game? And why would the changing of a species/look or skin colour change that predictability rather than having writers that just want to explore and create?

All of this also ignores the concept of representation and its value to many fans. That has been discussed a lot on this thread though, and on some levels is self-explanatory
.
This I can understand, but there is representation in the trailer. We know so little, but people are saying so much.
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,866
The solution to this problem is already found.

Spiderverse is a perfect example in how to handle diversity and please everybody.

Detroit become Human also features a lot of diversity and I think they did a good job there.

Forcing a "white dude" ( which is what your main audience identifies with) is needed but having other characters to be more diverse not only helps minorities feel more represented it also helps white dudes learn how to enjoy characters that are not 100% like them in their fantasy games.

Having cal, a POC and Ashoka would be hitting the jackpot.

But regarding the nonsense about art, the devs loved that actor and felt like he embodied the character perfectly... end of the story.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
I don't think that being PoC or female makes a character any more interesting (at a first glance) than being a white male. I can't really imagine how exactly would it make a character more interesting. Gender or race aren't interesting.
That being said, Fallen Order's guy doesn't really have much going on for him which could differentiate him from a myriad of other MCs in western games. Like, Marcus Fenix, for example: you see him once and you never forget who he is. Sure, he's ugly AF, but boy does he stand out. I doubt anyone is going to have the same reaction to the Fallen Order guy.
Actually it does when it comes to Star Wars!

They made it a reason why the empire was full of white human males. Like I posted earlier, it could be a good story beat.
 

PinballRJ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
858
I'm guessing they probably wrote the script without knowing who would play the main character, especially since you couldn't rely that an actor like him could make time for the project. There probably won't be many references to his gender or race, if there is, it was probably added very late.
 

timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
So why don't they say that rather than the responses on the original trailer thread? And how will having a White MC also mean a story that doesn't find any unique or surprising context? It doesn't make sense, that context or story isn't down to someone's Skin. It's down to the writers or world they are creating or writing in. What you are saying comes across to me as, choosing a different Mc purely on a Visual basis, will create a unique experience, which is just untrue. It might allow them to, but it's up to the writers to make it so. Not the look of the MC.



What are these basic tropes though? And if it's so predictable, what is the expected outcome to the game? And why would the changing of a species/look or skin colour change that predictability rather than having writers that just want to explore and create?

.
This I can understand, but there is representation in the trailer. We know so little, but people are saying so much.


Okay, so I'm going to do my best to explain my perception on why a white male lead is perhaps best described as a "safe" or "generic" perspective for the first narrative heavy SW game since The Force Unleashed 2. It is late my time so if my points are a little scattered I apologize.

So my first point is the concept of textual and metatextual context based on a character's race and gender, and even sexual orientation if that is known to the player/viewer. You're kind of right the the context of a story isn't often only boiled down to the gender and race of a character. However, stories are made up of a series of moments. These moments and scenes don't always progress the broader narrative, but provide characterization to the people involved. How a protagonist reacts to the people and world around them can be shaded and looked through the lens of their life experiences, and that lens often involves how people treat them due to their gender, race, or sexual preference. So, in a way, their identity provides flavor to their characterization, which in turn colors the way they interact with the story as a whole.

To use a specific example, let's look at the scene in A New Hope, where Luke is accosted at the bar. Luke is sitting quietly, trying not to draw attention to himself and Ben Kenobi, when he is insulted by two criminals at the bar. The audience understands that these criminals bother him because of a few factors. Luke is young, harmless looking, and seemingly alone. The criminals try to intimidate him because he looks like easy prey to bully. Luke flounders in this scene, and that accomplishes two things. It shows how out of his element Luke is, and provides an opportunity for Ben to be cool an use his lightsaber, further demonstrating his competence and value as a mentor.

Now imagine this scene if Luke was a woman. The scene could play exactly the same but also have different interpretations. First why are the criminals antagonizing female Luke? Due to the gender change the audience might see it as perhaps a boorish attempt at flirting, or a form of sexual intimidation. It could even just be simple Misogyny. The point is the nature of the interaction is now open to a different interpretation. None of this could even be intended by the text, but as an audience presented this scenario, we will likely look at the interaction through a gendered lens. The same would be true if we changed the race of the character. There would be an element of racial tension or fear to that interaction that is not there with a white protagonist.

There is a lot more to talk about here, but I don't want to linger on one point too long. So moving on to your second point. Specifically what tropes are common with white heroes. Well, in this situation what I meant was that Star Wars, and most heroic fiction most often use variations of what is commonly referred to as "The Heroes Journey." This is sort of the basic structure for a three act story chronicling a hero's rise to greatness.

The basic, basic gist are common tropes like: A humble beginning, a call to adventure, the loss of a mentor, a dramatic failure, generally culminating in a rise and defeat of the antagonist. These tropes and story beats should sound familiar because they are in pretty much everything. What adds spice to this outline is things like characterization, and the baggage a character brings with them when they start their journey. When people say they are tired of generic white guy heroes I think what they are trying to vocalize is that they are tired of seeing the same journey from very similar perspectives. As stated above, changing a character's gender, race, or sexual orientation can provide new lenses to view this story through, and make an archetypal journey feel fresher or less derivative.

The core of this issue lies in the fact that people are expecting a sort of pain by numbers white hero's journey here. We will likely see a sort of classic SW story, with probable callbacks to Luke's journey from overwhelmed farm boy to Jedi hero. Star Wars is a massive setting, with a huge number of stories that can be told from a large number of perspectives. That we are getting one that seems so vanilla, just from what they have shown us, is a little disappointing. Now there are lots of other reasons people are disappointed, representation, being chief among them. I am just trying to better clarify why race and gender can play a role in how a story is perceived and consumed. I apologize for this wall of text, and hope I have not strayed too off topic.
 

StarErik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
457
They probably chose the best actor for the role they wrote, and I'm positive they didn't write him as caucasian.
 

Hate

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,730
One of the most shallow criticisms I've seen.

I've always seen past races and look at the character themselves. Would I have liked it more if the protagonist was an Asian person like me? Maybe, but it wouldn't affect how I look at the game itself.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,641
This would bother me more if:

A. This wasn't the first single player SW game in what feels like a decade. I'm hungry.
B. SW as a franchise since Disney wasn't so good about diversity. Like, this is sorta only the fourth major release since Disney with a white male lead? Solo, the Vader comic, and the main Star Wars ongoing are the only others. Rey is the protagonist of the ST, Jyn in RO, both TV show leads are non-white (are they both Spanish?), both cartoon leads are non-white, I guess the Kanan comic also had a white lead? I'd rather an alien or a non-white lead but the franchise has shown it's evolved enough for this not to bother me as much as it would if it wasn't a SW game.

I would be far more interested if the lead was non-white, female, or an alien though.
 

JMeth

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
251
Illinois
It wouldn't matter what sex or race this character was, they are boring and uninteresting out the gate simply because the are human. A universe of choices and they give us another human focused narrative. That is the real crime here
 

Nebty

Member
Mar 27, 2019
43
Came to say this.

Arthur Morgan. The most generic looking dude, yet one of the best written character in a video game, ever.
Well it's a pretty safe bet that most of the well-written video game protagonists are gonna be generic white dudes.

Since, statistically, most of the video game protagonists that exist are generic white dudes. You don't get a prize if the odds are that stacked.
 

Voyevoda

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,160
Paris, France
Well it's a pretty safe bet that most of the well-written video game protagonists are gonna be generic white dudes.

Since, statistically, most of the video game protagonists that exist are generic white dudes. You don't get a prize if the odds are that stacked.

And non generic white dudes could be terribly written. I was just saying that the writing was the important part. Can we just judge a character on its personality before calling him generic, boring or even pass on a game (which I've seen people say multiple times)?

That's personally all I ask in a character: to be interesting, whatever the appearences. (but I think it's a rather unpopular opinion here on Era)

Since when do we value people's skin color more than their personality? If you value skin color more, for me, it would seem that you're a racist. And don't come with the usual, but I am a black female and can't identify with a white male. For real? We should value what the character does, how he behaves around other fellow people. Is he a caring person? Is he a douchebag? Does he help others? Is he selfish? That's what I look for in a protagonist, not his skin color, from my point of view he can be pink with stripes if he is a good person. So stop with this nonsense about "only white males protagonists in video games". I know we could use more variety, but the color/sex/ sexual orientation of the protagonist shouldn't bother you that much.

Thank you. My feeling exactly. We definitely could use more variety, but personality comes first.
 
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LinLeigh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
193
I don't think that being PoC or female makes a character any more interesting (at a first glance) than being a white male. I can't really imagine how exactly would it make a character more interesting. Gender or race aren't interesting.
That being said, Fallen Order's guy doesn't really have much going on for him which could differentiate him from a myriad of other MCs in western games. Like, Marcus Fenix, for example: you see him once and you never forget who he is. Sure, he's ugly AF, but boy does he stand out. I doubt anyone is going to have the same reaction to the Fallen Order guy.

Gender and race aren't interesting when you have been the default since the start of time.

Would I prefer a well written female character over a boring generic one yes of course.

But I would also massively prefer a generic female character over a generic male character.

I have consumed media with the latter for over 35 years. I still struggle to buy a Rey action figure in the local game store. My sons clothes can be bought with literally every character on it in the entire franchise except for any of the women.

So yes I roll my eyes a bit when we have yet again a white male and while the character might not end up being boring it is the initial impression after 35 years.
 

Gajeel23

Member
Jun 4, 2018
31
Since when do we value people's skin color more than their personality? If you value skin color more, for me, it would seem that you're a racist. And don't come with the usual, but I am a black female and can't identify with a white male. For real? We should value what the character does, how he behaves around other fellow people. Is he a caring person? Is he a douchebag? Does he help others? Is he selfish? That's what I look for in a protagonist, not his skin color, from my point of view he can be pink with stripes if he is a good person. So stop with this nonsense about "only white males protagonists in video games". I know we could use more variety, but the color/sex/ sexual orientation of the protagonist shouldn't bother you that much.
 

PlzUninstall

Member
Oct 30, 2017
563
The boring answer is just that marketing works best when you slap a white male on the box.

"Interesting" doesn't come into it. It's just corporate marketing and how it works at the moment. We're only just getting to grips with female leads never mind coloured folk/aliens/bizarre characters. It's depressing that they think nothing else will sell as well but here we are.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,595
And non generic white dudes could be terribly written. I was just saying that the writing was the important part. Can we just judge a character on its personality before calling him generic, boring or even pass on a game (which I've seen people say multiple times)?

That's personally all I ask in a character: to be interesting, whatever the appearences. (but I think it's a rather unpopular opinion here on Era)
I would prefer an interesting minority character over an interesting white guy because there are plenty of those
 

Nebty

Member
Mar 27, 2019
43
And non generic white dudes could be terribly written. I was just saying that the writing was the important part. Can we just judge a character on its personality before calling him generic, boring or even pass on a game (which I've seen people say multiple times)?
Well, they won't get the chance to be either well-written or terribly written if they don't exist. For every Arthur Morgan there are tons of awful boring white dude protagonists, because it's very hard to find anything else. They're all variations on a single overwhelming theme.

That's personally all I ask in a character: to be interesting, whatever the appearences. (but I think it's a rather unpopular opinion here on Era)
It's so hard to explain to people sometimes what it's like to not have representation because, for some, it's the status quo. White male gamers have a simply staggering number of options to choose from if they want to see themselves represented in their favourite medium. I envy them. They have the privilege of being able to say "I only care about personality"/"I only care about writing" because they can be fairly confident that no matter what, the game is going to be written with them in mind. Other kinds of people don't have that luxury.
 

Yurinka

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,457
It's going to be an action adventure AAA game, which means the majority of their users are going to be young males mostly white from NA and EU, so they choose a main character design than most of them can relate to. Makes sense from a business stand point.

Regarding the character, yes he looks generic. But being a woman or giving him another skin color wouldn't fix that. His Jedi master seems to be a black woman who also seems generic. The woman from Battlefront II was a woman and wasn't too white and she was very cool but more because of the actress itself and the character design instead of for not being a white male. A character design can be good or bad despite its gender and skin color.

To suggest to increase representation of certain collectives is ok, but it's racist to say that a character is bad for being white, and sexist to say a character is bad for being male. Let the devs to do whatever they prefer in each game.
 
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FallenGrace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,036
Why is he yet again human is my question? Why can't we play as one of the many alien races, many of which were jedi like Yoda, Aayla Secura etc.