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YMS video on Kimba the White Lion talks about how misinformative the Lion King ripoff narrative is

Antoo

Antoo

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YMS: Kimba the White Lion

Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/YMSTwitch: http://www.Twitch.tv/AdumPlazeMerch: https://teespring.com/stores/ymsDonate: http://bit.ly/ZlAuELWebsite: http://w...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

Really interesting video that contains a lot of research. Yes, the video is 2 hours long and I know most people do not have the time to watch it all. The main sticking point from this video though is that most of the comparisons between footage from Lion King and Kimba take footage from the 1997 Kimba film (even an article by the Hollywood Reporter of all sources makes this mistake). Crazy how big media outlets never bothered looking into this. Additionally, there is no actual source that Disney was in talks with Tezuka to adapt Kimba AT ALL. The driving argument is that the remaining similarities can be chalked up to actual coincidences easily. He is not arguing that some of the animators did not get inspired by Kimba; however, the way people frame this narrative is completely deceitful.

Some of points made in video (there's a lot more; I'm just highlighting a few):
1. Disingenuous comparisons between characters. The warthog in Kimba only appears in one episode in a series and is a vastly different character. His story revolves around a romance in Kimba. He's not a "sidekick" to the main character at all.

2. The Kimba show covered a variety of themes with each episode being self-contained. The prevalent theme that can be found in the original Kimba show is colonialism, which is NOT the main theme found in Lion King.

3. Kimba is a localized name.

4. He points out an article that states that Tezuka commented on the similarities between the two works in 1994... but the thing is he died in 1989.

5. Shows how surface level these kind of comparisons are by finding a 1940 comic titled called "Simba: King of the Beasts." Uses the same line of argument as people who say Lion King is a ripoff to craft a video saying how Kimba is a ripoff of THIS COMIC that shows how vague visual cues can be stitched together to present a compelling case for those who do not bother researching. Here's the video:
www.youtube.com

Kimba & Simba: King of Beasts - How Similar Are They? 「ジャングル大帝」と「シンバ：百獣の王」

Kimba was created in 1950, and animated in 1965. Simba: King of Beasts came out in 1940.This is just a companion video to my main Video Essay on Kimba/Simba!...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
 
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Squarehard

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Antoo said:
Yes, the video is 2 hours long
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Asobi-Asobase-01-11.jpg
 
aisback

aisback

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I remember him talking about this video being in the works awhile back. I knew it was going to be a big video but not a movie length.


I'm definitely going to give this a watch while working tomorrow
 
Grifter

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Trying to remember why I stopped watching YMS. Did he purposefully puke on camera?
 
Cross

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Isn't there a comic called 'Jungle Comics' that predates both Kimba and Lion King that have very similar story to both? Maybe that was the main source of inspiration for both.
 
fontguy

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Didn't one of the actors say he was told it was going to be a Kimba movie until it wasn't?
 
Aadiboy

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"There are going to be people in this comment section who are going to be white knighting for KImba who haven't even watched it"
 
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Antoo

Antoo

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fontguy said:
Didn't one of the actors say he was told it was going to be a Kimba movie until it wasn't?
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Watch the video. "Kimba" is not the name of the character in Japan. All the names in TLK are derived from Swahili words. Simba means lion, Pumbaa means foolish, etc. Also, a point made is that people mix up names easily. If you look carefully, there really is no larger conclusion that can be made from the fact that the names are close. If you go by the logic of mixing up names, then Kimba is a ripoff of a 1940s comic.
 
Mewzard

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Honestly, I think the worst thing about all of this is their downplaying of Tezuka like he was some unknown. Walt Disney himself had spoken with Tezuka.

tezukainenglish.com

Tezuka’s Life (1958-64)

In 1958 Tezuka had two meetings that would shape his life. The first was a visit by staff from Toei Animation who were interested in developing Tezuka’s manga series, Son-Goku the Monkey (195…
tezukainenglish.com tezukainenglish.com

"In 1964, Tezuka had the chance to meet one of his boyhood idols. While traveling to the 1964 New York's World's Fair as a special correspondent to the Sankei Shinbun, Tezuka had the opportunity for a very quick meeting with Walt Disney. Although it lasted for scarcely a minute, it was something he'd cherish for the rest of his life. Disney told Tezuka that he'd knew about Astro Boy (1963-66) and that he'd hoped he could do something similar in the future – a statement that had Tezuka brimming with pride and joy."

Tezuka was sending Christmas cards to Carl Barks, he wasn't some unknown to Disney.

Hell, Matthew Broderick thought he was playing Kimba (Leo) at first.


"Actor Matthew Broderick, who voiced the adult Simba in the 1994 movie, said he was confused when he was first cast, according to news reports. "I thought he meant Kimba, who was a white lion in a cartoon when I was a little kid," Broderick said at the time."
 
Big One

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I've been saying this for years that the comparisons are overblown. I do think Lion King was clearly inspired by Kimba (animators are huge nerds like us afterall even back in the late 80's/early 90's), but the two stories are really nothing alike whatsoever. Most people that say they're comparable haven't even seen Kimba or read the original manga.
 
jman2050

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Aprikurt said:
This also annoys me, no it isn't!! It's got a happy ending for one

Also I don't see Mufasa's ghost causing Simba to break down mentally
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No, Hamlet as a direct inspiration for The Lion King is quite well-documented unlike the whole Kimba thing, and the fact that the plot isn't 1:1 by design doesn't change that.
 
OrangeAtlas

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Grifter said:
Trying to remember why I stopped watching YMS. Did he purposefully puke on camera?
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I personally dipped when he whined about black people rallying around Black Panther instead of 12 Years a Slave but that's just me.

The Kimba situation has always seemed kinda messy, even if it is true folks always like using it as some sort of gotcha.
 
Squirrel Killer

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jman2050 said:
No, Hamlet as a direct inspiration for The Lion King is quite well-documented unlike the whole Kimba thing, and the fact that the plot isn't 1:1 by design doesn't change that.
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Just because Hamlet is an inspiration doesn't mean that The Lion King is the plot of Hamlet (or even that it's "Hamlet for kids.") There is so much more to Hamlet than "uncle kills dad for power and the son gets revenge."
 
Lulu

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Is the anime a direct adaptation of the manga tho?
 
diakyu

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I've been waiting for this. Even here we had people up to bat for Kimba when the two are not as similar as many claim. The tv show in particular has some batshit episodes.

I've been watching his research streams for this and it's pretty nuts just how many people just state completely unsourced claims.
 
Brushguy Woodthreep

Brushguy Woodthreep

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Lulu said:
Is the anime a direct adaptation of the manga tho?
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The anime and manga aren't that similar, but neither of them have much in common with The Lion King in terms of plot.

The manga is a long and winding tale about colonialism and the relationship between humans and animals. The anime kind of has a similar premise to the manga in the first episode (hunters kill his dad, his mum gets captured and gives birth to him on a boat, he swims back to shore and takes his rightful place) but quickly becomes a series of wacky adventures in learning how to be king.

Full disclosure: haven't watched the video linked in the OP, but have read the entire manga and watched a decent chunk of the anime.
 
AoM

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Lupin said:
Pretty sure Fred Ladd(?) said they wanted to call him Simba in the dubbed adaptation but the name was trademarked in the US at the time by another business, so they changed it. Is that covered in the video?
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8:15

youtu.be

YMS: Kimba the White Lion

Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/YMSTwitch: http://www.Twitch.tv/AdumPlazeMerch: https://teespring.com/stores/ymsDonate: http://bit.ly/ZlAuELWebsite: http://w...
youtu.be youtu.be
 
Yata

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I thought YMS would be banned here.

Anyway, watched the entire video and it was really informative. I got to admit I also belonged with the crowd that thought it was a rip-off because of the many articles and videos talking about the issue. But I ALWAYS thought the claims were sketchy af and never claimed them myself. It's fucked up just how much false and manipulative information got spread around, and I completely agree on YMS's reading of the situation here. It was especially sad seeing Tezuka's son statement regarding the controversy.
 
Antrax

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Squirrel Killer said:
There is so much more to Hamlet than "uncle kills dad for power and the son gets revenge."
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This is a nitpick though. Yes, more stuff happens in Hamlet, but no one cares or means any of that when referring to it.

It's like To Kill a Mockingbird. People referring to it are gonna do so around the trial, not the "Scout being a kid" parts. If I say "this movie is an adaptation of Hamlet" there are expectations of what that means, and it's probably going to be "protag's uncle usurps power and exiles protag."
 
fontguy

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Antoo said:
Watch the video. "Kimba" is not the name of the character in Japan. All the names in TLK are derived from Swahili words. Simba means lion, Pumbaa means foolish, etc. Also, a point made is that people mix up names easily. If you look carefully, there really is no larger conclusion that can be made from the fact that the names are close. If you go by the logic of mixing up names, then Kimba is a ripoff of a 1940s comic.
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Okay, but it's a western production. It would be really, really weird if the western producers only spoke to western actors about the role they were auditioning for using a name the actors would almost certainly not know.

To be clear, I don't think TLK is a ripoff in any way—and if the final product is an homage, it is only very barely so.
 
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Antoo

Antoo

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fontguy said:
Okay, but it's a western production. It would be really, really weird if the western producers only spoke to western actors about the role they were auditioning for using a name the actors would almost certainly not know.

To be clear, I don't think TLK is a ripoff in any way—and if the final product is an homage, it is only very barely so.
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Watch the video around the 2 hour mark. It contains the interview with Broderick talking about how he watched Kimba when he was younger.
 
JCG

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I think the video, which I've only seen part of myself, makes a good point in terms of acknowledging non-absolute similarities as being possible while others are inherently common trends that may appear when you try to make stories about talking African animals, yet the two works are still fundamentally very different.
 
Vertpin

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I can't remember why I stopped watching this guy but I remember it being weird.
Did he blow up in popularity again?
 
saladdays

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RyuCookingSomeRice said:
Let's see what the producer of Kimba has to say about this

www.youtube.com

Kimba Producer on The Lion King Controversy (Fred Ladd)

Presented without commentSpecial thanks to RaineOuShine for the footage!
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
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It's covered in the video; Fred purposely exaggerates comparisons and is basically just full of shit. All of the people who were involved with Kimba artistically (i.e. Tezuka Productions) agree that the similarities are natural to the setting, whereas all of the people who were involved in the business side push the Lion King narrative. I wonder what motive they could have to do that? Hmm....
 
RyuCookingSomeRice

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Madhavi Sunder, a professor at Georgetown Law who wrote about the Kimba/Lion King controversy in her 2012 book From Goods to a Good Life: Intellectual Property and Global Justice, says that had Tezuka's company, Tezuka Productions, pursued legal action against Disney in the wake of Lion King's release, the case would have been "very strong."

"For copyright infringement, we look at a few different things. We look at similarities in terms of the storyline, the plot and the characters; the more similar the second-comer is to the original details of the storyline or plot or particular character personalities and depictions, then we start to cross over into infringement," she tells THR. "In addition, in the case of the animation here, the strongest evidence is that the actual drawings depicting several scenes are strikingly similar between Kimba and The Lion King."
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But they didnt. So what "motive" is there?
 
saladdays

saladdays

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RyuCookingSomeRice said:
Well, what motive is that?
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Selling more DVDs, keeping the franchise in the public eye, etc.
By associating Kimba with one of the most popular animated films of all time, and then creating a narrative around Kimba that it was wrongfully copied, it means that they can make more money off people going "oh I want to see the basis for the Lion King".
 
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Antoo

Antoo

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RyuCookingSomeRice said:
Let's see what the producer of Kimba has to say about this

www.youtube.com

Kimba Producer on The Lion King Controversy (Fred Ladd)

Presented without commentSpecial thanks to RaineOuShine for the footage!
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

After watching that, please tell me how 'misinformative' the story really is.
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This just tells me that you didn't even watch the video above or read any of the points I highlighted at all. You just came here with your mind made up already.

The bird character in both works is a completely different species. Additionally, they share completely different personality traits with the bird in Kimba being a hot head. There's straight up multiple scenes taken from across the show to illustrate this. Same with the baboon. The character is old in both works but are completely different in personality. In Kimba he's a washed up old man who occasionally spouts words of wisdom. Hyenas are natural enemies of lions in Africa. What else is there to say?

The thing with the dead father appearing in the sky... completely different context. Kimba sees his dead father everywhere in hallucinations. It doesn't spur him to take action as an adult. The actual image of the dead father made up of clouds has a completely different context in Kimba. It's just imagery. The father does NOT talk to his son through the clouds.
 
RyuCookingSomeRice

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saladdays said:
Selling more DVDs, keeping the franchise in the public eye, etc.
By associating Kimba with one of the most popular animated films of all time, and then creating a narrative around Kimba that it was wrongfully copied, it means that they can make more money off people going "oh I want to see the basis for the Lion King".
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Oh right im sure that's it lmao.

But when reporters asked the Lion King creative team about Kimba, their response was, "Never heard of it."

"Frankly, I'm not familiar with [the TV series]," co-director Rob Minkoff told the Times. "I know for a fact that [Kimba] has never been discussed as long as I've been on the project," he added. "This is the first I've heard of Kimba or Tezuka. I never heard anything or saw anything about his work," screenwriter Linda Woolverton told the San Francisco Chronicle the next day.
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Look at these lies when Disney had cells of Kimba in storage lmao. Never heard of Tezuka.

Im sorry but its very clear that it was in fact inspired by Kimba.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

Big Little Lions: Disney’s New ‘Lion King’ Dodges the ‘Kimba’ Similarity Issue

When 'The Lion King' was released in 1994, a controversy erupted over alleged similarities between it and 1960s anime series 'Kimba the White Lion,' created by Japan's "God of manga," Osamu Tezuka. Twenty-five years later, amid the release of the live-action remake, fans of Tezuka say Disney...
www.hollywoodreporter.com www.hollywoodreporter.com

Read this if u dont believe me
 
RyuCookingSomeRice

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And yeah im not gonna watch a 2 hour video on this, no thanks. Ive already done my own research on this subject and im very convinced that Disney got "inspired" by Kimba.
 
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Antoo

Antoo

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RyuCookingSomeRice said:
But they didnt. So what "motive" is there?
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The video tears part this source. It outright lies and it is obvious that the author didn't watch TLK or Kimba. The book states Simba spoke to his dead dad through the moon... except THIS NEVER HAPPENED. They link a YouTube video from 2008 as a source...

The video walks through EVERY DEFENSE.
 
saladdays

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RyuCookingSomeRice said:
But they didnt. So what "motive" is there?
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Just watch the video. Tezuka Productions has always maintained there is not a case there. In fact, it seems like almost everyone on the Japanese side of things understand that there is not a case there. Almost all of the "direct similarities" come from a film that started production after TLK. The rest of the similarities are cherry-picked from 3 DIFFERENT TV SERIES, all of which are in flavor-of-the-week format, which means yes, obviously certain things are going to be repeated when you are comparing OVER 50 HOURS OF CONTENT to 1 MOVIE.

RyuCookingSomeRice said:
Im sorry but its very clear that it was in fact inspired by Kimba.
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It is probable that Disney was aware of Kimba, but any direct similarities are either extremely common to the setting, or are from works that were made after TLK. It's literally "Simpsons Did It", dude.

Edit: Oh yeah, maybe it's also important to note that the plots are nowhere close to the same (Kimba's primary villains are HUMANS, which are completely absent from any part of TLK). Or how about the fact that the Kimba shows are almost entirely comedic, with only brief dramatic moments, as opposed to the epic musical drama of TLK. Obviously, TLK has comedy, but Kimba is a comedy show first and foremost, whereas TLK is first and foremost a Shakespearean-style tragedy. Maybe actually watch any of it before making these claims.
 
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