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Eferim

Member
May 20, 2019
254
lol, how did no one noticed and it just went on and on for all those years??
As someone who was long annoyed by the constant memeing of "TLK ripped off of Kimba", it really just comes down to most people not really caring. Both the people who read those posts and the ones posting them. Nobody really cares all that much, it was mostly just bored people that thought they were smart passing it around without really caring if it was true or not.
I also imagine that the Venn diagram of "people who think TLK was a rip off of Kimba" and "people that think western animation is garbage and clearly inferior to wonderful Japanese animation" would have the former completely encapsulated within the latter. This meme was a lightning rod for people that think there's this war between western and eastern animation and this was the perfect ammo to show how much better eastern (really just Japanese) animation was.
 

arcadepc

Banned
Dec 28, 2019
1,925
We already know that people in the production of Lion King knew what Kimba was. That isnt really problematic but it's clear theres influence there even without the plagiarism bunk. Anime was popular with animators back then, so it isnt an unusual thing that someone drawing Simba for animation would have an idea of how he should move as a character due to growing up watching Kimba.

US animators back then felt rather threatened by Anime, Japan's cheaper yen during 70s-80s and outsourcing, fearing it would jeopardise their jobs. US networks were also much more protectionist, removing foreign elements in localisation.

Disney even had their own animation studio there (Walt Disney Animation Japan) so they knew about most franchises.

Now I want a two hour video about the controversy about Atlantis: The Lost Empire and Nadia: The Secret of Blue Water.

Because, c'mon - I don't care of what Kirk Wise said - it's impossible that Disney not copied also from Gainax.

Aladdin is a rip-off the Ducktales movie too
 

Deleted member 18407

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,607
We already know that people in the production of Lion King knew what Kimba was. That isnt really problematic but it's clear theres influence there even without the plagiarism bunk. Anime was popular with animators back then, so it isnt an unusual thing that someone drawing Simba for animation would have an idea of how he should move as a character due to growing up watching Kimba.
I don't buy this line of thinking. With how simple the animation is in the original Jungle Emperor anime, it seems extremely unlikely that the motions in that would inspire Disney animators. Especially when the reference of a real lion would be much more useful, which is what they actually used.

Also, how many Western animators would have been exposed to Jungle Emperor at the time?
 

Mewzard

Member
Feb 4, 2018
3,459
I don't buy this line of thinking. With how simple the animation is in the original Jungle Emperor anime, it seems extremely unlikely that the motions in that would inspire Disney animators. Especially when the reference of a real lion would be much more useful, which is what they actually used.

Also, how many Western animators would have been exposed to Jungle Emperor at the time?

Given the original anime ran in the mid 60s in the US and its immediate successor ran in the mid 80s in the US? It's not exactly impossible they caught it on TV. Matthew Broderick (Adult Simba) watched the original as a kid.

Like I said earlier in the topic, I wouldn't have been nearly as bothered by any possible influence if they wouldn't have gone out of their way to act like nobody had heard anything about it (and in some cases, heard anything about Tezuka himself).
 

Deleted member 18407

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
3,607
Given the original anime ran in the mid 60s in the US and its immediate successor ran in the mid 80s in the US? It's not exactly impossible they caught it on TV. Matthew Broderick (Adult Simba) watched the original as a kid.

Like I said earlier in the topic, I wouldn't have been nearly as bothered by any possible influence if they wouldn't have gone out of their way to act like nobody had heard anything about it (and in some cases, heard anything about Tezuka himself).
Sure, it aired in the US in the 60s but doesn't seem like it was ever that popular in the US. I'm sure some of the animators watched it as children but do you think it was really that many that remembered it well and used it as a reference when making their big budget lion movie? It's not impossible, sure, but it seems unlikely to me. As the video points out, the second series only aired on a Christian cable network and was very poorly dubbed.
 

Big One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,277
I don't buy this line of thinking. With how simple the animation is in the original Jungle Emperor anime, it seems extremely unlikely that the motions in that would inspire Disney animators. Especially when the reference of a real lion would be much more useful, which is what they actually used.

Also, how many Western animators would have been exposed to Jungle Emperor at the time?
I'm not saying it 100% happened but it wasn't unlikely. Just because it's niche to an audience of the entire population doesn't necessarily translate into the kind of deep dives artists and animators take on this kind of stuff. I mean a lot of what made anime/manga so popular in the West is artists, animators, comic authors, etc. introducing it to Western artists such as Frank Miller's role in bringing Lone Wolf and Cub to the west or Scott McCloud's novels about comics.
 

Deleted member 18407

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,607
I'm not saying it 100% happened but it wasn't unlikely. Just because it's niche to an audience of the entire population doesn't necessarily translate into the kind of deep dives artists and animators take on this kind of stuff. I mean a lot of what made anime/manga so popular in the West is artists, animators, comic authors, etc. introducing it to Western artists such as Frank Miller's role in bringing Lone Wolf and Cub to the west or Scott McCloud's novels about comics.
But what does any of that have to do with referencing the way lions move like you suggested? Why would the crude movement of 60s Japanese television animation be a reference point for The Lion King?
 

Jakenbakin

Member
Jun 17, 2018
11,850
Given the original anime ran in the mid 60s in the US and its immediate successor ran in the mid 80s in the US? It's not exactly impossible they caught it on TV. Matthew Broderick (Adult Simba) watched the original as a kid.

Like I said earlier in the topic, I wouldn't have been nearly as bothered by any possible influence if they wouldn't have gone out of their way to act like nobody had heard anything about it (and in some cases, heard anything about Tezuka himself).
The issue is the way the narrative of TLK being not inspired by Kimba, but a direct copy. Is it possible animators or concept artists or what have you had seen the show and it was an influence in their life? Sure. Is it likely as the movie was storyboarded they had frames stitched from multiple episodes or runs of Kimba up on the wall as they storyboarded their own scenes? No. Like clearly not, that's ridiculous and absurd to assume professional animators had to reference rather poor animation because they were incapable of coming up with their own imagery.

Likewise, is it possible a screenwriter had never heard of Tezuka? Uh, yeah, anime was hardly the breakout hit of the world that every person in the west consumed. And the screenwriter obviously wasn't inspired by Kimba in the least, given there were no similarities between the two properties at all.

I'm still only like an hour in on the video, watching when I get the chance, it's very engaging.
 

Deleted member 18407

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Oct 27, 2017
3,607
There was a Ducktales theatrical movie called the treasure of the lost lamp, and it's *very* broadly the same as Aladdin, in that they both have genies in them.
The final act of both films are similar too, like Ducktales almost feels like a first draft similar. I doubt there was any actual interplay between the writers on the films, just one of those wild coincidences.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,216
This reminds me when the Meme was Hunger Games rip off Battle Royale because it both involve kids being forced to kill each other but the actual works and Suzanne Collins saying she hasn't heard of it and was making YA gladiator was completely possible

But kids kill each other so same story
 

GungHo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
6,150
He has a lot of weird, passionate thoughts on bestiality.
giphy.gif
 

Sandstar

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,745
The final act of both films are similar too, like Ducktales almost feels like a first draft similar. I doubt there was any actual interplay between the writers on the films, just one of those wild coincidences.

Yeah, I was going to mention that Christopher Lloyd's character in the ducktales movie is very similar to Jafar, but I wanted to be a bit more comical about it. The films are more broadly similar than I gave credit for, but I agree that there probably wasn't any interplay (plus, how can disney rip off itself?)
 

Quacktion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,481
Was recently recommended this video by Chewie & Fuckface (and the youtube algorithm), and woooow its crazy how such an obvious lie can just get generally accepted as truth because no one cared enough to research it. Very educational video.
 

AGoodODST

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,480
Half way through the video. I always thought the Kimba comparisons was people just cherry picking random scenes from a Kimba movie out of context, as well as the name thing being silly.

I didn't know that there was a massive back catalogue of shows and stuff. Also didn't know that the film people often talk about was made after The Lion King. Going to watch the rest of the video, but this has made the idea of TLK being a rip off even more farfetched than I thought it would be.

Also lol at the bit about the random warthog in that one episode with a pain fetish.

Offt at all the black face/racist stuff. Christ that's disgusting as fuck.
 
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admiraltaftbar

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Dec 9, 2017
1,889
Was recently recommended this video by Chewie & Fuckface (and the youtube algorithm), and woooow its crazy how such an obvious lie can just get generally accepted as truth because no one cared enough to research it. Very educational video.
I'm amazed how many people believe crap like Fred Rogers was a sniper and did Mr. Rogers neighborhood because he felt bad for having killed so many people and that he wore long sleeves to cover his tattoos. It's really easy to start a lie on the internet and apparently people won't do the bare minimum of looking into it if you can give a slightly plausible reason for why it's true.
 

sinny

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,421
Honestly, I think the worst thing about all of this is their downplaying of Tezuka like he was some unknown. Walt Disney himself had spoken with Tezuka.

tezukainenglish.com

Tezuka’s Life (1958-64)

In 1958 Tezuka had two meetings that would shape his life. The first was a visit by staff from Toei Animation who were interested in developing Tezuka’s manga series, Son-Goku the Monkey (195…

"In 1964, Tezuka had the chance to meet one of his boyhood idols. While traveling to the 1964 New York's World's Fair as a special correspondent to the Sankei Shinbun, Tezuka had the opportunity for a very quick meeting with Walt Disney. Although it lasted for scarcely a minute, it was something he'd cherish for the rest of his life. Disney told Tezuka that he'd knew about Astro Boy (1963-66) and that he'd hoped he could do something similar in the future – a statement that had Tezuka brimming with pride and joy."

Tezuka was sending Christmas cards to Carl Barks, he wasn't some unknown to Disney.

Hell, Matthew Broderick thought he was playing Kimba (Leo) at first.


"Actor Matthew Broderick, who voiced the adult Simba in the 1994 movie, said he was confused when he was first cast, according to news reports. "I thought he meant Kimba, who was a white lion in a cartoon when I was a little kid," Broderick said at the time."

anyone old enough knew kimba and the tezuka work. It was well known and even as kids me and my brother saw the similarities between characters. There wasn't internet back then, and we already talked about this.

there is obvious inspiration but everyone can agree that it's no more than that and there is no case here.
 

StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
In isolation these are good points, but when you look at how often Disney appears and is accused of doing this it all becomes more questionable.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
In isolation these are good points, but when you look at how often Disney appears and is accused of doing this it all becomes more questionable.
lol this is such a silly rationalization. "Yeah, his argument makes sense, but Disney is evil, so let me have this."

If anything the Thief and the Cobbler-Aladdin connection is more blatant.
 

alexlf

The Fallen
Nov 1, 2017
740
Wow, pretty thoroughly done. Impressive how different the series actually are in every aspect that matters, especially compared to how I thought of them before. Nice research.
 

Jegriva

Banned
Sep 23, 2019
5,519
Oh right im sure that's it lmao.



Look at these lies when Disney had cells of Kimba in storage lmao. Never heard of Tezuka.

Im sorry but its very clear that it was in fact inspired by Kimba.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

Big Little Lions: Disney’s New ‘Lion King’ Dodges the ‘Kimba’ Similarity Issue

When 'The Lion King' was released in 1994, a controversy erupted over alleged similarities between it and 1960s anime series 'Kimba the White Lion,' created by Japan's "God of manga," Osamu Tezuka. Twenty-five years later, amid the release of the live-action remake, fans of Tezuka say Disney...

Read this if u dont believe me
Linda Woolverton was a screenwriter completely out of the world of animation until a few years before The Lion King. It's completeky plausible she never heard of a japanese animated movie of the 60s.



BTW, everytime I hear someone talking about this issue, I always ask if they actually have saw Kimba.
 

pooptest

Member
Oct 27, 2017
627
Given the original anime ran in the mid 60s in the US and its immediate successor ran in the mid 80s in the US? It's not exactly impossible they caught it on TV. Matthew Broderick (Adult Simba) watched the original as a kid.

Like I said earlier in the topic, I wouldn't have been nearly as bothered by any possible influence if they wouldn't have gone out of their way to act like nobody had heard anything about it (and in some cases, heard anything about Tezuka himself).

Yeah...

I see it plausible more so the fact these animators went to film school for X years and I'm sure were well aware of Tezuka and his works. Just because someone didn't grow up in the era of being able to watch his works while growing up (or while not having the internet), it's assuming animators as "average Joes" that have no learning of film or animation and its pioneers.

It's like not knowing about a fairly significant war/battle in X time/place while being a historian of those topics. I find it quite impossible the animators didn't know of Tezuka, regardless of their age.
 

Deleted member 18407

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Oct 27, 2017
3,607
Yeah...

I see it plausible more so the fact these animators went to film school for X years and I'm sure were well aware of Tezuka and his works. Just because someone didn't grow up in the era of being able to watch his works while growing up (or while not having the internet), it's assuming animators as "average Joes" that have no learning of film or animation and its pioneers.

It's like not knowing about a fairly significant war/battle in X time/place while being a historian of those topics. I find it quite impossible the animators didn't know of Tezuka, regardless of their age.
This does make me wonder how much Tezuka was talked about in animation schools pre-90s. I assume most of the Japanese stuff was not taught. A lot of people forget that anime wasn't a thing in the West aside from a few shows getting translated for broadcast television. I don't think many Western schools would've been teaching much about it.
 

Mewzard

Member
Feb 4, 2018
3,459
This does make me wonder how much Tezuka was talked about in animation schools pre-90s. I assume most of the Japanese stuff was not taught. A lot of people forget that anime wasn't a thing in the West aside from a few shows getting translated for broadcast television. I don't think many Western schools would've been teaching much about it.

Keep in mind, Osamu Tezuka's work was one of, if not, the first to be brought to America. Astro Boy was running on American Televisions starting in 1963, thanks to NBC. It's how Walt Disney knew about him.

If anyone's work from Japan was being mentioned in animation schools back before the 90s, it would have been his as the first choice.
 

pooptest

Member
Oct 27, 2017
627
This does make me wonder how much Tezuka was talked about in animation schools pre-90s. I assume most of the Japanese stuff was not taught. A lot of people forget that anime wasn't a thing in the West aside from a few shows getting translated for broadcast television. I don't think many Western schools would've been teaching much about it.

Yeah, I have no frame of reference to support the claim as I didn't go to film school, but I can't imagine non-western sources not being taught. I can see it being like art history where every possible technique, art form, etc is at least talked about, gone into detail, or possibly just glossed over. However, for being as large as he was in Japan, I'd imagine he'd be well known about in a number of schools' curriculum. <ascii shrug>
 

Deleted member 18407

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Oct 27, 2017
3,607
Keep in mind, Osamu Tezuka's work was one of, if not, the first to be brought to America. Astro Boy was running on American Televisions starting in 1963, thanks to NBC. It's how Walt Disney knew about him.

If anyone's work from Japan was being mentioned in animation schools back before the 90s, it would have been his as the first choice.
Right, I know about Tezuka's importance but I think people forget how western-centric the animation industry was. Would Tezuka's work be viewed as a separate thing 20 years on from it's airing in the US or would it just be seen as another cartoon? Would Japanese animation be considered a distinct enough thing (and would many of the teachers be familiar enough with it?) to be brought up separately or just viewed as a copy of what the west was doing? Keep in mind that the mainstream view of "anime" or "Japanimation" was just starting to be seen as a distinct thing in North America in the 90s.

It also was seen as smut by a majority, unfortunately. All of the video stores I went to in the 90s either covered the video boxes in extreme warnings or put it in their Late Night (read: porn) sections. Even innocuous stuff like Ranma 1/2 was placed in the smut category. My dad only knew of anime as "those cartoons with the nudity." Things have change a LOT since the mid-90s and before and anime has a much different view that it did back in the day. I'm sure there was some mention of animation from Japan somewhere in the schools but I can't imagine it was any sort of major focus, especially when knowing Chuck Jones or Walt Disney would be better for a western career.

I'd love be proven wrong though. This is just from my understanding of how things were kind of viewed.
 

Cheerilee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
Yeah...

I see it plausible more so the fact these animators went to film school for X years and I'm sure were well aware of Tezuka and his works. Just because someone didn't grow up in the era of being able to watch his works while growing up (or while not having the internet), it's assuming animators as "average Joes" that have no learning of film or animation and its pioneers.

It's like not knowing about a fairly significant war/battle in X time/place while being a historian of those topics. I find it quite impossible the animators didn't know of Tezuka, regardless of their age.
When Disney was making Pocahontas 2, the studio head (of Disneytoon, the B-tier studio responsible for the direct-to-video movies) told the director "You're making Pocahontas 2 next." The director asked "Can I have a copy of the original film, for reference?" and the studio head said "It's not out on VHS yet, so no. Have the script on my desk by the end of the week." So the director sighed, went back to the studio, and asked the animators "Have any of you seen Pocahontas? And if so, can you tell me what happened in it?"

It's not a given that Disney animators have seen the latest Disney movie.


Disney lawyers responded to the original "plagiarism" complaint by saying that Kimba had zero influence on The Lion King, which is an unfortunate statement since Kimba's influence was scientifically "not zero".

Matthew Broderick had seen the cartoon on American TV, and he casually assumed that Simba was Kimba, until he learned they were unrelated.

A tiny handful of people involved with the production said (in opposition to the lawyer's statement) that they were at least aware of the cartoon on TV, but that they don't believe it affected their work, as they were overwhelmingly inspired by Disney's Bambi (the groundbreaking animation that inspired Tezuka), by the paintings from their concept artists, by photos and reference material about Africa, and by actual live lions and lion cubs that were brought in to use as reference (same as how Bambi was put together). Nobody at 90's Disney needed Tezuka to show them "the Disney way" of drawing an anthropomorphized lion, because both of them were drawing from the same source, and 90's Disney was much closer to the original source. The idea for the Lion King apparently came about during the release marketing of Oliver & Company, another musical furry movie.

I don't think there's any reason to suggest that Kimba (or even Tezuka) was being taught in animation schools in America, not unless an animation school student claims that such a thing happened. I would say that with how determined people have been to prove the plagiarism accusation, this has already been looked into, but then I thought "Nah, the plagiarism accusers don't do research", but then I remembered that some of the plagiarism accusers do research, it's just that their research is selective and cherry picked, and framed in dishonest ways.


Keep in mind, Osamu Tezuka's work was one of, if not, the first to be brought to America. Astro Boy was running on American Televisions starting in 1963, thanks to NBC. It's how Walt Disney knew about him.

If anyone's work from Japan was being mentioned in animation schools back before the 90s, it would have been his as the first choice.
Walt Disney was in the position of being the head of the company, researching trends to see what's popular, what the competition is up to, looking into children's books and other sources for ideas for stories to adapt... he was in the perfect position to find and acknowledge Tezuka.

The person in that position for The Lion King was Jeffery Katzenberg, and if he was looking at Japan in 1988 to see what the competition was doing, he wouldn't be seeing Kimba The White Lion, he'd be seeing Akira.
 
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Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
Offt at all the black face/racist stuff. Christ that's disgusting as fuck.
Blackface is a biiiiiiiiig problem in Japan, to the point where it pops up in a lot of media or promotional material for media to this very day.

Even promotional material for a movie starring a black guy somehow ended up with blackface.
shjyeff1xw1erdceaz8m.jpg
 

skiibot

Member
May 28, 2020
10
I am extremely curious to see how many of the people defending the accusation of plagiarism (which is what copying is) has actually seen this video. To me, it's pretty insane the mental gymnastics at play here. It's like imagine that someone started arguing that Goodfellas copied the Godfather because they're both about the Mafia, and then proceeded to make videos comparing scenes in the film that are similar, without context, out of order. This is the level we are at with how crazy these accusations are.

In order for you to prove its plagiarism, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that not only are there are ideas and concepts in the Lion king that could have ONLY come from Kimba the white lion, but that the overwhelming majority of it came from Kimba the white lion. Anything less and it can be chalked up to inspiration, and not theft. Plagiarism is a career ending accusation to make, and requires evidence on par with its severity. If I come up with the idea of a King Lion in a jungle without having seen either the Lion King or Kimba, then it IS NOT PLAGARISM. IT IS A COINCIDENCE. Of course, we can't know for sure because we can't look inside the creators heads, so we have to do the next best thing which is to be kind and not accuse people of doing one of literally the worst things you can do in a creative industry unless you can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Also, Kimbas story is literally nothing like the Lion Kings. Why are people making these comparisons?

Let's not go on crusades and ruin legacies based on nothing yeah?
 

Dhx

Member
Sep 27, 2019
1,714
Discussing whether or not people working on TLK were aware of Kimba is to get lost in the weeds. It's irrelevant. The statement by the Disney lawyer was unfortunate and very quickly walked back.

Regardless of anyone being aware of Kimba, TLK as a finished product takes virtually nothing from Kimba.

There is no argument left to be had in that regard.
 

Big One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,277
I am extremely curious to see how many of the people defending the accusation of plagiarism (which is what copying is) has actually seen this video. To me, it's pretty insane the mental gymnastics at play here. It's like imagine that someone started arguing that Goodfellas copied the Godfather because they're both about the Mafia, and then proceeded to make videos comparing scenes in the film that are similar, without context, out of order. This is the level we are at with how crazy these accusations are.

In order for you to prove its plagiarism, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that not only are there are ideas and concepts in the Lion king that could have ONLY come from Kimba the white lion, but that the overwhelming majority of it came from Kimba the white lion. Anything less and it can be chalked up to inspiration, and not theft. Plagiarism is a career ending accusation to make, and requires evidence on par with its severity. If I come up with the idea of a King Lion in a jungle without having seen either the Lion King or Kimba, then it IS NOT PLAGARISM. IT IS A COINCIDENCE. Of course, we can't know for sure because we can't look inside the creators heads, so we have to do the next best thing which is to be kind and not accuse people of doing one of literally the worst things you can do in a creative industry unless you can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Also, Kimbas story is literally nothing like the Lion Kings. Why are people making these comparisons?

Let's not go on crusades and ruin legacies based on nothing yeah?
Yeah as someone who has no problem dunking on Disney for the stupid shit they do, the Kimba thing simply isn't one of them. Anyone who has actually experienced both Kimba and Lion King as products would already figure out it's bunk. Literally all it took for me to realize it's complete bullshit is reading a RAW manga of Jungle King Leo (Kimba) eons ago, and I wasn't even looking for that resolution when going into it; the complete opposite, in fact.
 
Offt at all the black face/racist stuff. Christ that's disgusting as fuck.
Japanese illustrators/animators were heavily influenced by Western minstrelsy back in the first half of the twentieth century, and since to them this is all foreign stuff without much cultural context a lot of them never really kept pace with shifting cultural recognition in the West that this was actually really racist.

Though in the specific case of Tezuka's work in the 1960s, it's a bit dubious how far behind the times he really was, seeing as American animation and comics, etc. had been full of similar stuff only a few years earlier (and it's not like it totally went away either).
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,716
Finally got around to watching the whole video. Holy shit. It's kind of crazy to look back at old threads now.