I mean, what else would you call games that are set in a first person preservative other than call of duty clones?
Funny enough Wolfenstein 3D contained just that as a secret level.
View: https://youtu.be/zZn9tX_yeKc?si=GhJy4AmOu9NGiQWE
I think my friends and I called it a "3d shooter" or "3d action" or something, because Wolfenstein had "3D" in the title. That was our frame of reference.
While I totally get what he was going for I don't think many people agree that Gauntlet is a RPG, and less so Doom even at the time. Their similarities don't stem from RPGs (enemies, lives, keys, levels, mazes, monster closets) and the RPG
-like elements of Gauntlet (classes, D&D influence, health progression) aren't present in Doom.
There were RPG staples such as equipment, stats, experience points and interactivity that defined RPGs for a decade and more already and Ultima Underworld had done it in real-time 3D. I wouldn't call the first System Shock a RPG by that standard either even though it has more interaction, but would include System Shock 2. Although the infamous "why can't I talk to the monsters?"-review indicates some confusion regarding first person 3D action games, I think few would classify it as a RPG even at the time. Heck there were proper RPGs after Doom that were mislabelled as Doom clones instead of RPGs.
Here's what the very same Edge review called it in '94:
FS3DPMA/SHMUP, boom.
-like elements of Gauntlet (classes, D&D influence, health progression) aren't present in Doom.
There were RPG staples such as equipment, stats, experience points and interactivity that defined RPGs for a decade and more already and Ultima Underworld had done it in real-time 3D. I wouldn't call the first System Shock a RPG by that standard either even though it has more interaction, but would include System Shock 2. Although the infamous "why can't I talk to the monsters?"-review indicates some confusion regarding first person 3D action games, I think few would classify it as a RPG even at the time. Heck there were proper RPGs after Doom that were mislabelled as Doom clones instead of RPGs.
Here's what the very same Edge review called it in '94:
FS3DPMA/SHMUP, boom.
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I know this is just mostly people spamming answers, but Ahoy is a super good Youtube channel. I say this as someone who doesn't really care about all the ones that are just about a weapon.
Their video about old computer art is great:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4EFkspO5p4
Their video about old computer art is great:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4EFkspO5p4
What? It did have, because Doom wasn't even the first FPS. At the time Doom was one of a bunch (and IMO still one if not the best game of all time)
I don't think calling it an action RPG is that wrong though. There's no "level" system, but there's definitely a progression system (imo, one of the best) where you get better weapons and items and you face tougher enemies or stronger setpieces. You can also make enemies in fight with each other as well and you definitely have this exploration/dungeon crawling feeling from the first game with all the secrets and resource scavenging.
Compared to the kinds of Half-Life it's practically a different genre. (Quake/Unreal being a mix of both). But the term "first person shooter" (tiro em primeira pessoa in my country) was quite common where I used to describe games like Doom, Wolfenstein and others like it - as the video showed it already had some usage as well. Maybe not in the media I guess, although I agree that "FPS" acronym came out much later.
Compared to the kinds of Half-Life it's practically a different genre. (Quake/Unreal being a mix of both). But the term "first person shooter" (tiro em primeira pessoa in my country) was quite common where I used to describe games like Doom, Wolfenstein and others like it - as the video showed it already had some usage as well. Maybe not in the media I guess, although I agree that "FPS" acronym came out much later.
...that is not what the video is about.
The genre term "first person shooter" or "fps" is newer than Doom.
microplastics must be rotting peoples brains. Doom isn't an RPG nor is Gauntlet. RPGs were games based off of D&D and other table top games with their systems in mind. That's why they got their own genre as the design was close to the table top version and each one was very similar in its systems to warrant the genre.
If you were alive back then (and I doubt anyone who calls DOOM an Action RPG was), then you'd know there was a basic ass genre labeling system back then and it was considered an action game. Same with gauntlet. Rogue was an RPG. There's no opinion on this. You had action, adventure, rpg, shooter (for games like 1942, darius, etc), sports (and some others I'm forgetting).
Genre labelings kind of sucked back then (and still does but less so thanks to subgenres) and Jeff Gerstmann has talked about it before how the genre labeling was underwhelming. But there are always dumb asses who are always trying to fuck up labeling systems and have no idea how to label things or how or why people even try to categorize things. This has always irritated me (as you can probably tell lol).
If you were alive back then (and I doubt anyone who calls DOOM an Action RPG was), then you'd know there was a basic ass genre labeling system back then and it was considered an action game. Same with gauntlet. Rogue was an RPG. There's no opinion on this. You had action, adventure, rpg, shooter (for games like 1942, darius, etc), sports (and some others I'm forgetting).
Genre labelings kind of sucked back then (and still does but less so thanks to subgenres) and Jeff Gerstmann has talked about it before how the genre labeling was underwhelming. But there are always dumb asses who are always trying to fuck up labeling systems and have no idea how to label things or how or why people even try to categorize things. This has always irritated me (as you can probably tell lol).
I'm not sure it's wrong at all, action RPG is what it is, but action RPG is so wide a description, it's like calling something a platformer, sure, it has some value, but it's not enough to describe a game.
So, action RPG isn't wrong. It wouldn't be wrong to say "video game" either, or software, or just game, all true. It's not enough though. Even FPS isn't enough anymore, probably, and original boomer shooter is more precise.
Today we would call Demon Souls or Dark Souls a Soulslike
But when they came out the term Soulslike obviously didn't exist. So what genre were they referred too? Most likely 3rd person action RPG
That's what the video is trying to say. Doom came out before the term FPS was officially coined. The Catacomb 3D or Ultima Underworld examples in the video clearly show that first person didn't magically mean shooter. Finding keys, solving puzzles and fighting monsters in first person are things that weren't as genre-coded like we think today
The original Doom exe is programmed to have multiple actions that are common in dungeon crawlers. Opening doors, moving elevators, raising stairs, crumbling floors, damaging floors, crushers, teleports, keys, enemy ambushes. Most of these features would allow modders to recreate without issues, for example, a typical Zelda dungeon (in fact someone already did!). The video even talks about Strife, a game built on the Doom engine which features RPG elements like dialogue choices and npcs. Today Doom is obviously considered the father of FPSs, or even simply a the father of Boomer Shooters (even if Wolf3D came out before). Doom being considered a "first person action adventure" (or first person dungeon crawler) in 1993 is a perfectly interesting discussion to have
But when they came out the term Soulslike obviously didn't exist. So what genre were they referred too? Most likely 3rd person action RPG
That's what the video is trying to say. Doom came out before the term FPS was officially coined. The Catacomb 3D or Ultima Underworld examples in the video clearly show that first person didn't magically mean shooter. Finding keys, solving puzzles and fighting monsters in first person are things that weren't as genre-coded like we think today
The original Doom exe is programmed to have multiple actions that are common in dungeon crawlers. Opening doors, moving elevators, raising stairs, crumbling floors, damaging floors, crushers, teleports, keys, enemy ambushes. Most of these features would allow modders to recreate without issues, for example, a typical Zelda dungeon (in fact someone already did!). The video even talks about Strife, a game built on the Doom engine which features RPG elements like dialogue choices and npcs. Today Doom is obviously considered the father of FPSs, or even simply a the father of Boomer Shooters (even if Wolf3D came out before). Doom being considered a "first person action adventure" (or first person dungeon crawler) in 1993 is a perfectly interesting discussion to have
Duke Nukem 3D came out just a few years after Doom though. It kicks ass and chews bubblegum.
I love how you have this funny, interesting, well thought out and researched video and 95% of the replies in this thread are just some moronic 1liner spamming of what genre doom is.
This is like, 90% of all Era threads. It's hard to engage with a video or take it as anything less than The Most Serious Question Ever.
Did you even watch the video? The term FPS didn't exist when DOOM came out. So articles had to call them something else until the term was coined.
Been keeping up with Ahoy ever since he was called XboxAhoy and when he was doing the original run of his Black Ops Weapon Guides in mid 2011. Love the man, he's pretty much the original video essayist, dare I say it.
As for his conclusion, eh, it's fine. He has decent points but at the same time, it's hard to imagine the name "first person shooter" not coming up eventually anyway, even if somehow Wolfenstein and Doom were completely isolated incidents (the most unbelievable part of the video certainly). I guess this video mostly proves how trying to box games into genres sometimes is a little fruitless. Is Undertale a danmaku game? Part danmaku?
As for his conclusion, eh, it's fine. He has decent points but at the same time, it's hard to imagine the name "first person shooter" not coming up eventually anyway, even if somehow Wolfenstein and Doom were completely isolated incidents (the most unbelievable part of the video certainly). I guess this video mostly proves how trying to box games into genres sometimes is a little fruitless. Is Undertale a danmaku game? Part danmaku?
Undertale is kinda a shmup RPG. Like how doom is an action RPG. I hesitate to call it a danmaku game because the patterns only really become danmaku like on a couple bosses (notably the very cave esque fights against the royal family and the secret bosses in Deltarune)
I agree that Doom's UI uses the same visual language as a bunch of other 80's and 90's PC RPGs, and that the gameplay is basically derived from Gauntlet, but Gauntlet itself isn't much of an RPG. It's more of a fantasy themed action game and doesn't have the type of progression, player choice, or mechanical underpinnings that usually define the RPG genre. Gauntlet certainly in dialogue with a lot of fantasy RPGs, but it's a coin-hungry arcade action game first and foremost.
The thing is, you always define stuff by what exists, and only when the thing gets big enough that it starts to deserve more recognition, that's when you go deeper and try and make it more specific, probably with a period where stuff is called a X-like / clone when it's similar to that genre defining thing.
Computer Gaming World called Doom a 3D Action game in their previews. Computer + Video Games a 3D Shoot-em-up. In the legendary cringe EDGE review Doom was called 3D Maze Adventure and 3D Shoot-em-up.
So yeah an Action RPG descriptor for Doom is certainly a choice no matter the epoch.
So yeah an Action RPG descriptor for Doom is certainly a choice no matter the epoch.
I kept thinking about Fromsoftware's RPGs while watching this. We define an entire genre of game based on games made by a single studio. If we treated First-Person Shooters the same way we'd just be calling them DoomQuakes. Making nonsensical statements like "Half-Life 2 is my favorite DoomQuake" This is kind of what "Doom Clone" was though.
