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How should competitive multiplayer shooter games (first and third person) handle cross play?
- Thread starter Stoney Mason
- Start date
OT but ps4 players can only play with ps4 and Xbox one. Ps5, xsx and pc can play together. there is no mixing of console generations.
I'm a KB/m player, who often lobbies up with friends in Apex who play with controller, some of them use both interchangeably with no discernable difference in their own performance while I'm playing with them (i.e. I don't feel they do worse when playing with a controller as opposed to when they use KB/m). And they are all better players than me. The gulf really isn't as big as most people like to think. The aim assist carries hard in games like Fortnite, Apex, Halo and Warzone.
There's a reason a lot of top players in these games use controllers, even when playing on PC. Apex controller aim assist on PC is actually weaker than it is on console and yet you'll see PC Apex Predators running around with a controller.
The games where controllers are objectively a disadvantage are games like Siege, which don't have any aim assist and prevent you from leaning without ADS when using controller.
There's a reason a lot of top players in these games use controllers, even when playing on PC. Apex controller aim assist on PC is actually weaker than it is on console and yet you'll see PC Apex Predators running around with a controller.
The games where controllers are objectively a disadvantage are games like Siege, which don't have any aim assist and prevent you from leaning without ADS when using controller.
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Once you're playing on a higher skill level (ie. best 30% of the player base) you'll reach a point where the average kb/m player is better than the best controller player and there was no succuessfull way yet to counter-balance this difference. Several fps games tried this but all failed until now.
Ranked playlists need to either be seperated by inputs or give controller players the choice to either stay within the controller playlist or let them join the kb/m playlists "for fun" to see how far they can get. But the 2nd way usually ends with "all those PC players must be cheating!" discussions because the difference is actually this big once you're playing in high elo / mmr lobbies.
Ranked playlists need to either be seperated by inputs or give controller players the choice to either stay within the controller playlist or let them join the kb/m playlists "for fun" to see how far they can get. But the 2nd way usually ends with "all those PC players must be cheating!" discussions because the difference is actually this big once you're playing in high elo / mmr lobbies.
I like the approach that they took with Destiny 2. For PVE content, it seems that there are no restrictions; console users are matched with PC. But for PVP modes, the matchmaking is separate unless you are already in a mixed party.
Unlimited multiplayer cross devices regardless of input. No need to try to solve matchmaking issues by creating arbitrary walls.
e. It's always best to have option to move seamlessly from one device to another and continue playing with same groups, friends and servers.
e. It's always best to have option to move seamlessly from one device to another and continue playing with same groups, friends and servers.
As just seen in the BF2042 Beta this is not a good idea. Console players logged into the beta and got into lobbies with mostly M&K users and it was a miserable experience where it felt like you had to struggle to get kills. That's why everyone was telling console players to turn off Cross play as the first thing you do because otherwise you won't have any fun.
Ideally I'd like matchmaking via input method, but I suspect that's really easy to get around on pc?
Input method isn't just about skill/advantages anyway. Mouse and keyboard completely changes the way some games play. CoD on pc is, imo, a miserable experience that almost requires camping because everyone is too accurate for such a low ttk.
I used to think this, but it doesn't work in practice. If I'm above average on console I want to be matched with similar skilled players, not lower skilled players with advantages from a different control scheme.
Input method isn't just about skill/advantages anyway. Mouse and keyboard completely changes the way some games play. CoD on pc is, imo, a miserable experience that almost requires camping because everyone is too accurate for such a low ttk.
I was getting killed left and right by Xbox and PS5 players. It was a pretty even mix of who was killing me. I don't think it's a big issue really in public games.
Harder to get kills, not impossible.
I feel like the people 100% of the time arguing for "unrestricted crossplay" are always M&K users. Usually same ones who say Aim Assist should also be a very minimal thing.
I've been killed plenty of times by controller players. I've been genuinely surprised at the level of play from them. The only area they can't keep up with is long range sniping, thats where MK/B dominates. The key seems to be allowing for generous and aggressive aim assit.
For me there's 3 different scenarios:
1. Modes that use engagement or playtimetime based matchmaking: everyone together.
These kind of queues have by design abandoned any kind of competitive parity, so just put everyone together by whatever arcane metric they use for matchmaking
2. Casual modes using skill based matchmaking: everyone together.
These are by definition casual, and skill based MM should ensure that you're matched with people close to your skill level, regardless of input type.
3. Ranked modes with skill based matchmaking: split by input.
In case where rank actually matters and people playing are expected to be at a pretty high skill level, an input based split makes sense.
1. Modes that use engagement or playtimetime based matchmaking: everyone together.
These kind of queues have by design abandoned any kind of competitive parity, so just put everyone together by whatever arcane metric they use for matchmaking
2. Casual modes using skill based matchmaking: everyone together.
These are by definition casual, and skill based MM should ensure that you're matched with people close to your skill level, regardless of input type.
3. Ranked modes with skill based matchmaking: split by input.
In case where rank actually matters and people playing are expected to be at a pretty high skill level, an input based split makes sense.
Not minimal, but also not just auto aim, something more like softlocking would be fine. No matter the input method you use it should still require skill and not just hand you free kills.
This is another good way of doing it.
Yeah maybe something that can change depending on target distance.
That sounds like a bad matchmaking that is fixable on server side. Client and device details are available for MM, and it should be responsible on providing as good and fun matches as possible for all the players.
Limited pools of players will cause matchmaking issues anyway, you can't assess the quality of MM in a beta.
Preferably console default, PC opt in but input based is a fine compromise.
Also ignoring the fact that unless dev enable specialty controllers, the PS5 is locked down to Dualsense only.
Apex is console default PC opt in though unless they changed it, same for Fortnite?
first off all games should have crossplay and m+kb options on console now.
From there there should be 2 separate queues depending on your party layout - M/KB + mixed parties only or Gamepad only. DQ and punish for switching from pad to M/KB midgame in the gamepad only queue.
From there there should be 2 separate queues depending on your party layout - M/KB + mixed parties only or Gamepad only. DQ and punish for switching from pad to M/KB midgame in the gamepad only queue.
Crossplay in the BF2042 beta is hilarious. On the one hand you murder console players left and right in confined spaces and on the other hand the console players snipe you from across the map with their ridiculous aim-assist that even accounts for enemy movement on sniper/marksman rifles.
I don't consider Battlefield "competetive" but it is a good case study to see how devs lack any real understanding on how to make cross play work in shooters. We have a loooong way to go before these problems are solved on a game-by-game basis. It is not as simple as grouping input methods because it should never be limited by your input method of choice.
I don't consider Battlefield "competetive" but it is a good case study to see how devs lack any real understanding on how to make cross play work in shooters. We have a loooong way to go before these problems are solved on a game-by-game basis. It is not as simple as grouping input methods because it should never be limited by your input method of choice.
True. Bigger player pools will most likely provide better MM compared to beta, and improve game experience for all. Everything just works out-of-the-box, and there is no need to go disabling features from the game.
People still believe that M&K is so much better than a controller, when gamepad users are winning Fortnite tournaments left and right, and Apex pros constantly complain about aim assist.
If anything, PC players are the ones who want to limit crossplay, not poor console users.
If anything, PC players are the ones who want to limit crossplay, not poor console users.
What? Legit never heard this.
Console players are ALWAYS the ones advocating for console-only cross play. PC Players don't want cross play gone, they just want there to be no aim assist at all.
Seen people say it but whenever I played it def didn't seem like it.
Check news and discussions on Dexerto or other websites I guess?
Yeah they also want SBMM to be removed for the same reason.
In close combat controller almost always wins M&K, with snipers M&K is probably better. So it's even.
The only shooter I can really speak for on this is Halo but I think cross should be off by default for everything with controller players being able to opt in if they party with a mouse user.
Mouse doesn't only have a significant advantage over controller in Halo it's also a very different game. The weapons in Halo are balanced using varying amounts of aim assist/bullet magnetism.
For example, the sniper is perfectly accurate in hip fire, but, it has no/very little aim assist making it extremely difficult to use in hip fire and thus balancing it against other weapons.
That's gone with a mouse - the sniper becomes a one shit kill noscoping machine. The same can be said for many other weapons for aspects such as range balancing etc.
Mouse doesn't only have a significant advantage over controller in Halo it's also a very different game. The weapons in Halo are balanced using varying amounts of aim assist/bullet magnetism.
For example, the sniper is perfectly accurate in hip fire, but, it has no/very little aim assist making it extremely difficult to use in hip fire and thus balancing it against other weapons.
That's gone with a mouse - the sniper becomes a one shit kill noscoping machine. The same can be said for many other weapons for aspects such as range balancing etc.
Boosting aim assist to such ridiculous levels is not good option over different forms of crossplay.
- Opt out by default
- No cross play in ranked.
- Input based, though maybe mixed lobbies are ok when queuing with friends with other input methods - Idk. This is up to developers, let them consider playerbase size and matchmaking times + game specifics.
- No cross play in ranked.
- Input based, though maybe mixed lobbies are ok when queuing with friends with other input methods - Idk. This is up to developers, let them consider playerbase size and matchmaking times + game specifics.
Input-based, with mixed lobbies being put in kb+m lobbies.
Also, it seems like the gulf between controller and kb+m always depends on aim assist. Too powerful, and controller becomes dominant. Zero or very little aim assist, and mouse wins. Halo MCC is night and day difference between inputs when the game was designed around aim-assist manipulation (along with headshots only mattering after shields break). I think it was also Black Ops 4 on PC that was dominated by controller players on PC because aim-assist tracked so hard and did all the recoil manipulation for you. It legitimately made me stop playing because it started to become obvious in killcams when I was killed by a controller player vs mouse aim trying to control recoil, along with more and more people commenting on how powerful aim-assist was in that iteration of COD on PC.
Also, it seems like the gulf between controller and kb+m always depends on aim assist. Too powerful, and controller becomes dominant. Zero or very little aim assist, and mouse wins. Halo MCC is night and day difference between inputs when the game was designed around aim-assist manipulation (along with headshots only mattering after shields break). I think it was also Black Ops 4 on PC that was dominated by controller players on PC because aim-assist tracked so hard and did all the recoil manipulation for you. It legitimately made me stop playing because it started to become obvious in killcams when I was killed by a controller player vs mouse aim trying to control recoil, along with more and more people commenting on how powerful aim-assist was in that iteration of COD on PC.
I would assume that this depends on a game. There are games like Destiny where aim assist is strong and noticeable, and then there is Overwatch where controller aiming is painful.
After Warzone and BF2042 I just don't want Console - PC cross play at all. There is just going to be a performance gap between them that is almost impossible to bridge.
Call of Duty has gotten pretty close, but the performance advantage PC has is still massive. And if they don't manage to balance the gunplay out properly you get a BF2042 situation where you are also at an extreme gameplay advantage on PC.
Not to mention the PC brings in cheaters in bulk. Absolutely ruining console experience.
Call of Duty has gotten pretty close, but the performance advantage PC has is still massive. And if they don't manage to balance the gunplay out properly you get a BF2042 situation where you are also at an extreme gameplay advantage on PC.
Not to mention the PC brings in cheaters in bulk. Absolutely ruining console experience.
Don't know why or people are downplaying cheating on PC. No one is saying most PC players cheat, but the majority of cheating does objectively come from that side of the fence. I've never played Warzone and don't actively follow the COD scene, but even I regularly hear about the cheating problems plaguing that experience. Console players shouldn't be forced to put up with that. Now if they choose to opt in, cool, but that should not be the default option.
It's really sad to see people dismissing the entire PC player-base due to cheating or input. But console players say "fuck you I got mine", right? Just because someone wants to play a game in the best possible quality means they have to be quarantined due to some bad actors? What if the shoe was on the other foot?
I say cross-play should be available full stop. If the game doesn't tell you, 9/10 times you won't notice in a public game. If the game has good skill-based matchmaking, players of any skill level regardless of input would be matched fairly. And if the game has good anti-cheat, well look at that, few cheaters too! Cross-play isn't something you should rally against, turn your hate to bad anti-cheat and matchmaking. Both of which are solvable problems.
I say cross-play should be available full stop. If the game doesn't tell you, 9/10 times you won't notice in a public game. If the game has good skill-based matchmaking, players of any skill level regardless of input would be matched fairly. And if the game has good anti-cheat, well look at that, few cheaters too! Cross-play isn't something you should rally against, turn your hate to bad anti-cheat and matchmaking. Both of which are solvable problems.
OP
OP
Interesting results but mostly as I expected. I personally don't agree with option #1. I favor option #2 as I always think crossplay should be an option for those that want it. But option #2 is essentially the Apex Legends model which I believe is the most fair option and the most popular here. But if you combine option #1 and #2 they are a clear majority option. While the people who think crossplay should open for everybody is around 10%.
This tends to align with my anecdotal experiences of what people want.
This tends to align with my anecdotal experiences of what people want.
It would also be interesting to see how many people play with a controller on PC regardless.
And what about mobile gamers? Isn't Fortnite cross play with mobile devices as well? No one complaining playing against people who are using a fucking touchscreen to aim, right?
OP
OP
I would argue that we just had a battlefield beta where most people did not have that experience. And I'm personally not trying to jettison anybody. The cheating isn't remotely the most important issue for me. It's the input differences. Even if anti cheat was perfect I still only want input based matchmaking except for mixed parties. Crossplay shouldn't stop somebody from playing with friends if they want but it shouldn't force everybody else into mixed inputs because a lot of people don't want that for lots of different reasons.
In my opinion, three option breakdown for FPS games:
1) Open crossplay between all platforms and input styles.
2) Crossplay between all consoles with controller inputs only (this option only exists on consoles, obviously).
3) Crossplay OFF, all matchmaking within a single platform ecosystem, controller inputs only for console and all inputs on PC.
If you're using keyboard and mouse, you have to play open between all platforms or PC only.
1) Open crossplay between all platforms and input styles.
2) Crossplay between all consoles with controller inputs only (this option only exists on consoles, obviously).
3) Crossplay OFF, all matchmaking within a single platform ecosystem, controller inputs only for console and all inputs on PC.
If you're using keyboard and mouse, you have to play open between all platforms or PC only.