Which is odd because this is SW and before a single thing was ever shot they were completely honest about their intention to emulate the OT.
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I just Watched The Last Jedi, why was it controversial??
- Thread starter konka
- Start date
We all understand that. That doesn't mean they weren't planning a Vader redemption as they finalized ESB. As soon as they wrote "I am you father" into that script, guaranteed "Luke redeems his father" went to the top of their Ideas for Next Movie white board. All early drafts of ROTJ include it. And surely they tossed other ideas around. George wanted Luke to go dark side. I'm not really sure what we're talking about anymore
and if they had, maybe people would've been less confused about Luke's situation. I'm not saying they had to, just pointing out that some people hear Luke say "Snoke got him" and wonder why Luke is taking all the Ls
Luke going through crippling depression instead of following the Yoda archetype is a way more interesting direction. You keep trying to find rational behind his actions when crippling suicidal depression doesn't require logic, Luke lost everything, and he blamed himself:
I get it, Luke's depressed. Once again, a lot of people were not happy with this aspect of Luke. Referring to Luke's depression as "crippling" won't change their opinion
Arguably, Yoda did the same thing Luke did. He screwed up and a pupil went to the dark side. He hopped in a spaceship and hid away on Dagobah for 30 years, not doing anything about it. Not sure what you are getting at here. And not really interested in continuing, because as I said, I like the idea of hermit Luke
The first thing Snoke tells Kylo is that the reason he keeps Hux around is because weakness can be a sharp tool when properly manipulated, literally the next thing he says after that is "How's your wound..." he roasts Kylo to hell and back and you know what happens next? Kylo goes ham:
Kylo then tries to use Rey's biggest weakness against her:
It thankfully doesn't work. On top of that, the film very clearly telegraphs that the reason Kylo would be killed by the guards if he attempted to kill Snoke, he's aware of this fact:
Ah, I did not notice the telegraph with the guards. That's a good catch
I still understand why people wanted more from Snoke
I mean, it's not really a problem. It's not something that needs explaining away, because it's a situation that never happens, because they blow up the Dreadnought. I'm not looking for answers as to why Poe's choice couldn't have coincidentally have saved their lives, I'm just remarking that it's interesting that it very arguably did, and that the movie and everyone who watched it seems to consistently overlook it. I appreciate your attempt to at length explain away my source of amusement all the same. Thank you for the response. edit: to be clear, this isn't sarcasm.
There are things that you cannot solve by jumping in an X-Wing and blowing something up, but I'll always feel a little enjoyment at the idea that this was not one of those things, and that those dead heroes who would never become leaders are the only reason anybody would have the chance to admonish Poe's bad judgement. It just undercut the teachable moment Leia was trying to give Poe a tiny little bit.
"You came from nothing. You're nothing."
That is one of the best delivered lines in the history of Star Wars. The bluntness of the writing and the delivery of Adam Driver is top notch and one of my favorite moments in any modern blockbuster.
That is one of the best delivered lines in the history of Star Wars. The bluntness of the writing and the delivery of Adam Driver is top notch and one of my favorite moments in any modern blockbuster.
You know what I actually don't know. I never heard a legit good reason why this movie is so bad outside of vague reasoning and Canto Bight (which by the way was overblown to hell and back).
Many of the more outspoken critics really are against the more diverse cast, and many others were really bothered at it subverting expectations in many ways, even ones set up as recently and very explicitly in TFA. Those aren't the only reasons people don't like it, but I do think that's where a lot of its most noisy criticism comes from.
I loved all the characters. It's hard to put my thumb on it, but I think I had an issue with the way the story was told. There was a certain amount of busy-ness on screen at the jedi island, when compared to the bleak austerity of Dagobah where your only focus is on the lessons Yoda is teaching Luke, which were the focus of the whole film to me. The dialogue, music, scenery, and the pacing all came together to mystify me. Whatever it was about the jedi island, it just didn't instill the same sense of dark mysticism in me.
I especially love Rey as the heroine, I just felt she was a little bit robbed considering:
1. Yoda was in exile too, and taught Luke the ways of the force as he set off to rescue his friends.
2. Obi wan failed with Anakin, yet still guided Luke throughout his journey.
I just can't understand the complete failure of a teacher that is Luke, especially given the inspiration of his predecessors.
I especially love Rey as the heroine, I just felt she was a little bit robbed considering:
1. Yoda was in exile too, and taught Luke the ways of the force as he set off to rescue his friends.
2. Obi wan failed with Anakin, yet still guided Luke throughout his journey.
I just can't understand the complete failure of a teacher that is Luke, especially given the inspiration of his predecessors.
So you agree with my original statement that Luke redeeming Vader isn't foreshadowed at all in ANH or ESB?
Because Snoke got what he wanted and Luke lost everything.
Yoda going into exile after the destruction of the order makes sense, however, like many many many things in the prequels, what leads to it makes so little sense upon examination, the battle with Palpatine concludes with him falling down while Palpatine hangs there, other stuff happens elsewhere, and then we cut to an escaping Yoda. As if we hadn't just seen this dude doing superman jumps throughout the throne room. It's like he gave up because he fell first. He also didn't experience despair, at teh end of the film he telegraphs that he's been contacted by Qui Jon, we never see that before the prequels were way more about telling compared to showing....
While you could miss information just by blinking during some scenes in TFA & TLJ.
You could consider it this way, Luke was an L that Ben and Yoda were waiting to hand over to Vader and Palpatine. They just needed him to get big enough.
But it's horribly written! Somehow, in spite of possessing all the elements of a well conceived story, with strong themes that fit the world of Star Wars and its characters--themes that are developed and reinforced organically through characters' dialog and actions--enough exposition to orient the audience without insulting their intelligence, and characters that have clear motivations and realistic weaknesses that all play a part in the plot and influence their individuals arcs, it is horribly written.
Yes, this well crafted movie that exhibits every characteristic of good writing is horribly written. Because I say so.
So well played. I love that moment too.
When people dump all over or dismiss great, perfectly executed dramatic moments like that, it's a clue that they really have no interest in the quality of the movie like they claim. They just wanted things to go their way, but the story went a different way, and now they're going to retch up bitter lies and act like the movie's artistic merits are the real problem.
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Exactly this. Loved the stuff with rey, kylo and luke. The rest, not as much sadly. Finn and Rose just felt like they were 'there.'
I just finished watching it on Netflix and came in here to see. Maybe the fact it was so "controversial" raised my expectations too high, but like... nothing seemed egregious to me at all. I didn't even see the places where people could hook criticisms - not like Rogue One and TFA, where I saw the issues pretty clearly.
I guess in retrospect, a lot of the Finn/Rose/Poe subplot was just wheel spinning, but it was the sort of Star Wars drama I like (prison breaks and mutinies and goofy alien worlds). And the fact it all amounts to nothing, and their plan fails, and it's all a big clusterfuck... that was amazing. Like, literally made the movie for me. There's this big plan, and this smooth talker on an alien prison, and this million-to-one shot of success, and Poe is leading this mutiny against this frosty bitch. And you're expecting them to pull it off in the nick of time. But no! They're fucking idiots! Their plan fails because they went off half-cocked and bet the house on some random dude who is CLEARLY untrustworthy!
Star Wars, like so many blockbusters, tends to run on the logic of heroes succeeding, against all odds. And this time, they don't. It was so cool. I was on the edge of my seat. If TFA was doing this sort of thing, I probably wouldn't have until TLJ showed up on Netflix. Definitely will have my ass in the seat for Episode IX.
The only legitimate complaint I think I had is that Phasma is the best character and gets completely wasted in two straight movies, then killed off unceremoniously. What a bummer. She'll live on in our hearts (and in merchandise).
I guess in retrospect, a lot of the Finn/Rose/Poe subplot was just wheel spinning, but it was the sort of Star Wars drama I like (prison breaks and mutinies and goofy alien worlds). And the fact it all amounts to nothing, and their plan fails, and it's all a big clusterfuck... that was amazing. Like, literally made the movie for me. There's this big plan, and this smooth talker on an alien prison, and this million-to-one shot of success, and Poe is leading this mutiny against this frosty bitch. And you're expecting them to pull it off in the nick of time. But no! They're fucking idiots! Their plan fails because they went off half-cocked and bet the house on some random dude who is CLEARLY untrustworthy!
Star Wars, like so many blockbusters, tends to run on the logic of heroes succeeding, against all odds. And this time, they don't. It was so cool. I was on the edge of my seat. If TFA was doing this sort of thing, I probably wouldn't have until TLJ showed up on Netflix. Definitely will have my ass in the seat for Episode IX.
The only legitimate complaint I think I had is that Phasma is the best character and gets completely wasted in two straight movies, then killed off unceremoniously. What a bummer. She'll live on in our hearts (and in merchandise).
Legitimate question, what is great about Phasma? I don't see the appeal at all. She does nothing of note and her design is just a chromed out storm trooper suit.
This is pretty much it, if you're interested, OP. I would maybe add that RJ seemed out to be "unpredictable" and "gotcha-ish" and dropped several threads from TFA on the floor.
Oh, and the central conceit of the Resistance cruiser running on fumes while long side-plots happen that don't have any sense of urgency was made a lot worse by the bad editing that did things like constantly cut away from the throne room scene.
I'd also say it did too much and it would've been cooler if the throne room scene was the climax and they ended on more of a cliffhanger and had Luke's death occur in the last movie. The movie could've definitely been a half hour shorter altogether.
Oh, and the fucking "saving the things you love" bullshit, as if the sacrifices of Holdo, Luke, and Rose's sister in that very same movie weren't helpful. The movie was a mess thematically (when it really didn't have to tread into those waters at all) and had no idea what it was talking about.
Having a cool suit and doing literally nothing describes Boba Fett in the OT. And Boba was one of the most well liked OT characters.
At least they gave Phasma a fight scene unlike Boba.
I'm sorry. I didn't pay attention to all those power fantasy things. I liked the movies. (Like most people.)
I honestly don't know. Chromed out suit, bitchin' cape, always framed in a really imposing way. She's just a straight-up villain with a great design. If we're being honest, I (and I assume a lot of fans) like the idea of the character more than the execution, and you occasionally get glimpses of how badass she could have been.
Like, that's cool as shit.
Having a cool suit is still more than Phasma. :p
Not that Boba Fett's adoration isn't also baffling but he's also a bounty hunter. Phasma is another grunt in the storm trooper fleet of fuckos.
I honestly don't know. Chromed out suit, bitchin' cape, always framed in a really imposing way. She's just a straight-up villain with a great design. If we're being honest, I (and I assume a lot of fans) like the idea of the character more than the execution, and you occasionally get glimpses of how badass she could have been.
Like, that's cool as shit.
I guess I don't see anything that's unique to her rather than inherent to the storm trooper design.
Telling someone who really likes the movie a legit logical complaint is "shoddy storytelling" isnt a really thought out compelling argument.
Not controversial, just a shitty star wars movie.
Looked beautiful though.
I think Space Leia is what was the topper in my case. After that I just enjoyed the beauty, I knew the story wasnt going to improve.
The rumor is that Lord and Miller (who were hired for their comedy chops) were replaced partly because they didn't want to make a comedy but wanted a hard boiled violent action flick + they had the actors do 20+ takes on simple scenes.
Edit: remembered wrong. Updated + added sources.
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Huh that's weird. I'm all about experimentation over formula though so it woulda been fun to see
Yeah that entire movie was about him as a Jedi rook and bring tempted to the freaking dark side. He's old as fuck in last Jedi and is presumably an enlightened master. Even though he has flaws still, having him stop an entire army without actually fighting or killing is like literally the most Jedi thing he could have done.
Lucasfilm paid attention. Their story group, including George Lucas, had to approve all of those 'power fantasy things'.
The point being, you can't just shove and sell hero Luke into people's faces for 35 years in all kinds of various forms of media that are mostly consumed by only the hardcore Star Wars fan, and then think that same hardcore Star Wars fan is going to be happy with what you ended up doing with the character.
I feel like I'm the same place. I enjoyed Star Wars movies shot by George Lucas.
Terrible sub plot with Finn and companion that is badly casted(her sister that died at the start had more emotion in 5 min than her), Rey not doing anything significant despite being an actual cool new protagonist. And Luke being a sad pussy that is done with it all. At least it was almost redeemed at the end, almost.
Snoke.... Lol.
Looks like we've seen a different movie.
Snoke.... Lol.
Looks like we've seen a different movie.
It's rather depressing that we went from the previous thread that had lots of good, long, constructive, and well written discussion about The Last Jedi to how Last Jedi fans immediately jumped towards attacking detractors of the film personally like the replies you mentioned in your post.
I just re-watched it on Netflix since the theatrical release.
I'm mellowing my opinion of the movie but it major flaws are still present in the movie.
All the Forces uses (exept Snoke) are a joy to watch. Kylo and Rey dynamic was fun. And Luke is my favorite Jedi. Yoda cameo was a +
(Fuck Snoke, Andy Serkis sucks)
But one particular negative element jumped into my face 10 folds on re-watch, and that's Benecio Del Torro's DJ.
DJ is one of the worst Star Wars characters ever conceived, you would expect him in Ocean's 11 or something but fuck his stutter was SNL bad.
What's fucked up is that Benecio was excellent as the Collector in GotG but total shit as DJ in TLJ.
And the who bullshit of War Profiteering, OMG that was such a mouthful of crap. Same arms dealer supplies Tier Fighters to the Bad guys but supplies X-Wings to the Good guys?
GTFO.
I re-iterate that the whole Hyper Space tracking, Code Breker, Red Flower lappel, Canto Blight, Horsey, Benecio Del Torro plot-line to be total garbage.
I'm mellowing my opinion of the movie but it major flaws are still present in the movie.
All the Forces uses (exept Snoke) are a joy to watch. Kylo and Rey dynamic was fun. And Luke is my favorite Jedi. Yoda cameo was a +
(Fuck Snoke, Andy Serkis sucks)
But one particular negative element jumped into my face 10 folds on re-watch, and that's Benecio Del Torro's DJ.
DJ is one of the worst Star Wars characters ever conceived, you would expect him in Ocean's 11 or something but fuck his stutter was SNL bad.
What's fucked up is that Benecio was excellent as the Collector in GotG but total shit as DJ in TLJ.
And the who bullshit of War Profiteering, OMG that was such a mouthful of crap. Same arms dealer supplies Tier Fighters to the Bad guys but supplies X-Wings to the Good guys?
GTFO.
I re-iterate that the whole Hyper Space tracking, Code Breker, Red Flower lappel, Canto Blight, Horsey, Benecio Del Torro plot-line to be total garbage.
1. First off Lucas did not approve if the EU material. He didnt pay attention to any of it and made it very clear none of it counted to him.
2. This is the EU in which Luke fell to the dark side, became an apprentice of a Palpatine clone and joined the Empire for a while. And that is more heroic than him being depressed for a few years (he was full on hero Luke at the end of TLJ)?
3. Per the making of TLJ book in Lucas's original outline Luke had an apprentice turn on him and he ran away in shame. A young female lead, named Kira in Licas's draft, had to seek him out and try to convince him to train her. Depressed ashamed Luke who went into hiding came directly from George Lucas.
I still don't get people's issue with the Canto Blight stuff. It's basically showing why the galaxy is always embroiled in conflict (because the aristocracy is profiting by playing both sides) and helps move Finn's character development along.
Then again, people seem to think Finn didn't have any character development, so IDK :S
Then again, people seem to think Finn didn't have any character development, so IDK :S
the chase scene goes on for too long
I don't know how that turned into "the whole thing is worthless", but whatever, internet i guess
There's that vague reasoning I was talking about. But it's bullshit it's told very well.
Shiny stormtrooper died before getting to do anything cool. Snoke died before getting to do anything cool. Why was finding Luke so important if he doesn't do anything of value? Ramming ships into star destoyers in the original trilogy just destroyed the ship trying to enter hyperspace with no damage to the star destroyer. Why spend so much time on a pointless subplot?
In a story that's told really well, you wouldn't be able to write your B plot completely out of the movie with only minor effect on the main plot.
The B plot has a huge effect on the film both in it's inner workings and thematically. The final scene calls back to Canto Bight ffs.
Isn't what Luke do in the last part, the most powerful use of jedi force ever??
I mean he use a doppelganger for who knows how many light years of distance
how in the fuck can someone say with a straight face that if you remove the canto bight part of the movie, the overal plot doesnt change, likeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
"only a minor effect on the plot"
get the fuck out of here
This is just flat out not true.
EDIT:
To clarify, he didn't think any of it was "canon." And, he never beheld himself to following anything that went on in it, but he paid attention to it. And, would approve certain decisions, especially with the video games. And, with Clone Wars he was even more hands on.
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Maybe in a broad sense but his original plans for the sequels also discarded EU material. Badass Jedi power fantasy Luke where he saved the day never works outside the realm of fan fiction which is what the EU was when all is said and done.
See above, yes. Lucas never thought that the story of Luke getting married and getting cloned and all that jazz was "canon" or his story. He never considered himself beholden to the EU. But, he paid attention to it. He allowed people to generally go wild with the EU, within reason, because he saw the films as the only "true universe."
That doesn't take away from his point. Even Lucas thought power fantasy Luke was dumb.
The whole code decypher and almirant Holdo (?) plots are hilarious, and it's like 40' of movie!!
Snoke death is super lame.
Mary Poppins Leia is very funny.
Too many deus ex machinas.
Luke appearing out of nowhere and people thinking the cave didn't have an exit but he had to come from somwhere so they look for an exit, however Luke didn't come from there because he's a hologram lol!
Also I didn't like how Luke died 30s after they showed us Kylo didn't kill him, but ok.
Cool images tho.
Snoke death is super lame.
Mary Poppins Leia is very funny.
Too many deus ex machinas.
Luke appearing out of nowhere and people thinking the cave didn't have an exit but he had to come from somwhere so they look for an exit, however Luke didn't come from there because he's a hologram lol!
Also I didn't like how Luke died 30s after they showed us Kylo didn't kill him, but ok.
Cool images tho.
Driver is by far the standout of the sequels
He's the only actor in the new series that is given any interesting material to work with
