The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)

Chettlar · Jul 11, 2018

Spyware said:
What I read from Deroir's tweets was that he wasn't agreeing that a blank slate was the best/only solution for any MMO/RPGs (which she seemingly said, but again, interpretation), and also that he agreed that it was the way to go with the design of the Living World in GW2 specifically. That's just my interpretation tho! How we perceive stuff is very subjective.
I do not agree with his suggested "solution". Dialogue options is a "solution" that gets thrown around a lot and it simply doesn't work well. I would have ignored him or even blocked him if I felt that he was annoying me. But it's easy to say "I would have" or "she should have" in hindsight.

Price's answers felt out of place. I am a woman and have been in games journalism for about 5 years (2009-2014) before I stopped due to all the hate I got, which was even harder to handle due to me seeing that my colleagues (men) got way less hate.
So I understand her but I still think it was stupid, sorry Price. That shit will get you fired in a lot of places, that's just how it is. It's often in the contract.

Fries came and had some thoughts about it all. While I didn't agree that the comment that started this specific situation was due to her being a woman, he was completely right about the state of the world. Women get more hate. I hadn't seen everything he wrote since he quickly deleted it but I was informed of most of it through this video (it's an hour long, a WP thing). What was in the later tweets that I had not seen before was... pretty bad. Completely understandable, but bad.
Sorry Fries, I admire you and have done for ages (I have been a fan of GW since GW1's release) but again, what was said will get you fired from way too many companies. That's just how the world is now.

ArenaNet fired them and the message about it was pretty crude. Was there ever a chance for them to be able to just get a warning and publicly apologize? Did they get that ultimatum and didn't take it? What happened behind closed doors? We have gotten one side of it from one person (afaik) and that's not helping.
I would have liked ArenaNet to state it better, if they "had to" fire them due to the company rules or whatever else happened there. Even tho they tried to make it less of a "spectacle" by just answering in a thread and not going out and announcing it separately, it was still like tooting a horn.

And then there are the effing Gators doing everything they can to hate on her for being a woman, being bolstered by the decision to fire them ("the woman and the cuck", he gets lots of hate too) and keeping on with the hate and threats.

And I'm just so upset. I really liked what these writers were doing for the game(s). I love the game(s). I can understand why ArenaNet might have needed to fire them.
But I am super fucking upset. I am upset that what ANet did bolstered and strengthened the hate groups, I am super upset about all the harassment. This is just a mess.

Word for word how I feel.

Price should not have said what she said. The streamer was respectful but his criticism did seem a little presumptuous. Its annoying Price brought sexism into the situation. It shows that she's going to read every negative situation through a specific lense, even when her conclusion is false. Unfortunately this fits exactly into what Gamergators say "SJWs" will do, which is kind of sickening.

It's really frustrating because knowing what I have known and knowing people I have known, I 100% get hypersensitivity to things like "mansplaining." It's a thing. It happens. I think it's easy to read any instance of a presumptuous young man that way, however, even when none of that had to do with the situation. It's also easy for people to haven't experienced it to dismiss it as not a thing.

I also feel many members in this thread are acting bizarrely. Acting as if its impossible to both sympathize with Price while also feeling she acted inappropriately. You can understand someone's plight while still holding them to acting decently to those who are respectful to them.

The firing, while I understand it, just doesn't feel right to me regardless. I don't know what went down in that conversation.

213372bu · Jul 11, 2018

Silky said:
"telling games writer how to do games writing" definitely isnt condescending at all apparently

Deroir's comments may have not been framed as negative or whatever but they sure as hell wasn't necessary, stop dumping your low rent games ideas on random people involved in the development process. Use forums like literally everyone else

David Cage was a few years too early, people getting frustrated over unqualified gamerz giving advice to narrative artisans of the vidya game persuasion is certainly something to chuckle over.

Nevermind in this situation that this is an MMO in which community exchange through avenues like social media is constant and appreciated, especially one between a community leader and a writer he admires.

But it seems he should have just been classy and screamed into the ether in an ERA thread instead of just tweeting at a dev, because that's better for *reasons*.

Christ.

DorkyMohr · Jul 11, 2018

Thorn said:
This was on a public forum literally right after a public AMA.

All I'm hearing is never disagree with a developer.

Stick to AMA's then, this is akin to going to a Q&A and then accosting the speaker afterwards as they're headed to their car.

newmoneytrash · Jul 11, 2018

Thorn said:
This was on a public forum literally right after a public AMA.

All I'm hearing is never disagree with a developer.

You know you can still be condescending in both public forums and AMAs, right?

Like being open to receiving questions and comments doesn't also mean please condescend to me

Gotdatmoney · Jul 11, 2018

JesseEwiak said:
Yeah, I don't get the Deroir was just asking a reasonable question thing. All his Tweets I've seen seem like the typical, "I know better than the game designers" post I see people trash here are on GAF in the past, including some developers. I remember the developer of Skullgirls wrecking shop on people who had no idea how much it actually costs to create characters, for example. Weird how nobody called for him to be fired or have his game boycotted when he was not very nice at all.

I didn't interpret his tweets as I know better. I interpreted it as over eager fan trying to engage a developer about something out of their breadth of knowledge. But his tweets don't strike me as having an air of arrogance. That said, even if I don't agree with her handling of that it's largely whatever. People being shitty on social media is whatever, it's not the world burning especially for something so largely benign.

After the fact though she framed the dude as mansplaining for all her followers and essentially escalated the shit to make a point. If you are going to push shit further instead of letting it die then by all means do you but I basically check out as far as what happens after that.

I think what the issue is is simply that mansplaining doesn't have to be ill intentioned to be mansplaining. The context doesn't remove the trend which is something that people easily miss.

newmoneytrash said:
Yeah his tweets being continually framed as just a polite question is incredibly disingenuous

He was pretty polite. I don't see how you read that and think it's rude. It's naive but it isn't rude. If you think it's malicious I'd be interested in hearing why.

Deleted member 5596 · Jul 11, 2018

Dennis8K said:
ResetEra tells developers how to "fix" their games ALL the time.

That is what a videogame discussion forum is for.

We don't go to their personal twitter and tell them directly how to do their work.

Price said to Deroir that there was other channels to post his "feedback", but she didn't want it shoved it in her face.

Deleted member 11976 · Jul 11, 2018

Adam Orth's deal isn't close because people didn't look to that as a precedent to actively push for other firings that same week. Today, however, I've seen people (all women) in my twitter timeline speaking about how they've been targeted as a direct result of the Arenanet firings. Angry people with nothing better to do simply do not want women to participate and/or contribute and will look for any seemingly legitimate cover from which to deny them access and/or employment. None of this is new but the firings certainly will embolden those who want to escalate their targeted harassment efforts.

Studios now need to be crystal clear about what steps they'll take to handle harassment in the form of bad actors asking for terminations.

DorkyMohr · Jul 11, 2018

Chettlar said:
Price should not have said what she said. The streamer was respectful but his criticism did seem a little presumptuous. Its annoying Price brought sexism into the situation. It shows that she's going to read every negative situation through a specific lense, even when her conclusion is false. Unfortunately this fits exactly into what Gamergators say "SJWs" will do, which is kind of sickening.

Your tone is really gross. It's "unfortunate" when people conform to what a hate group thinks of them? Get out with that.

newmoneytrash · Jul 11, 2018

a stray cat said:
She could have done what you said, but she didn't do that either.

She chose to make it about her being a female game developer and THAT's why people needed to continually tell her how her job works. Then she went on to insult Deroir. Then she went on to say that she doesn't have to play nice on Twitter and she doesn't have to like her customers. All while wearing the hat of an ANet employee.

Don't pretend all she did was say that she was tired of receiving unwarranted and unasked-for criticism.

Yeah, but she's not wrong tho

It's also amazing how people have twisted that she said she doesn't need have to play nice to her hating all of the players of her game. She doesn't have to play nice, no one does, especially toward people who are rude and condescending

Gotdatmoney said:
He was pretty polite. I don't see how you read that and think it's rude. It's naive but it isn't rude. If you think it's malicious I'd be interested in hearing why.

You can politely be condescended to

TouchOfGray · Jul 11, 2018

Seems to me like yes, she had to play nice.

Instro · Jul 11, 2018

Zefah said:
Whataboutism for sure, but would some examples of male employees at video game companies getting fired for badmouthing "the fans" make you happy? What are you looking for?

I'm not really looking for anything, I was just responding to a post comparing her to a Starbucks employee, so of course the entire line of discussion is whataboutism. I mean if there are apt examples of the same thing happening elsewhere in the industry then I'm sure it's relevant to this discussion.

Moogle · Jul 11, 2018

Dizagaox said:
Don't generalise. It makes you look like a fool.

Nah, I stand by what I said and would challenge every one in this thread saying Price's actions supposedly harm the push for inclusivity in gaming to reconcile those claims with the fact that ArenaNet's conduct during this is what actually has devs afraid to speak their minds. https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/9/17549492/arenanet-jessica-price-guild-wars-2-writer-fired

Price calling a guy an asshat is not making people otherwise open to the idea of women devs suddenly change their minds overnight... they weren't open to it to begin with.

Thorn · Jul 11, 2018

Relaxed Muscle said:
We don't go to their personal twitter and tell them directly how to do their work.

Price said to Deroir that there was other channels to post his "feedback", but she didn't want it shoved it in her face.

A "personal" twitter where she publically states her name and job, and just had a public AMA.

Her account was not set to private.

Dennis8K · Jul 11, 2018

Relaxed Muscle said:
We don't go to their personal twitter and tell them directly how to do their work.

Price said to Deroir that there was other channels to post his "feedback", but she didn't want it shoved it in her face.

Has nothing to do with the point the poster was making about telling a games writer how to write being condescending.

If so ResetEra is being condescending to developers non-stop all day every day.

Blackbird · Jul 11, 2018

newmoneytrash said:
Yeah, but she's not wrong tho

It's also amazing how people have twisted that she said she doesn't need have to play nice to her hating all of the players of her game. She doesn't have to play nice, no one does, especially toward people who are rude and condescending

Bingo.

newmoneytrash · Jul 11, 2018

Dennis8K said:
If so ResetEra is being condescending to developers non-stop all day every day.

You're not wrong

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 11, 2018

newmoneytrash said:
Yeah his tweets being continually framed as just a polite question is incredibly disingenuous

How? Seriously, how is this unacceptable on the part of Deroir? To you, it's seriously not OK to offer suggestions to devs in regards to problems they have declared might be impossible (thus implying some degree of giving up), especially if they are women?

---

Price:
The dirty secret is I'm not sure if it's possible to make an MMORPG (or CRPG) character compelling, because people have different expectations about what that character will be, as opposed to a pre-designed character in a single-player game.

Deroir:
Really interesting thread to read! However, allow me to disagree *slightly*. I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording seemingly suggest). I believe the issue lies in the contraints of the Living Story's narrative design;

When you want the outcome to be the same across the board for all players' experiences, then yes, by design you are extremely limited in how you can contruct the personality of the PC.

But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express *their* character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), (3 of 4 cause I count seemingly...)

then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread! (End)

Price (the next day):
thanks for trying to tell me what we do internally, my dude 9_9

Price, quoting Deroir's tweet and displaying it to all on her feed:
Today in being a female game dev: "Allow me--a person who does not work with you--explain to you how you do your job."

Deroir, an hour or so later:
You getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it.

213372bu · Jul 11, 2018

Relaxed Muscle said:
Price said to Deroir that there was other channels to post his "feedback", but she didn't want it shoved it in her face.

@ing a writer you admire on a couple feedback tweets = LITERALLY SHOVING IT IN THEIR FACE

Kumquat · Jul 11, 2018

DorkyMohr said:
Stick to AMA's then, this is akin to going to a QA and then accosting the speaker afterwards as they're headed to their car.

It's more like as the speaker leaves the podium you ask them so you said this in your presentation but I was curious how this would fit into it.

The dude can then either engage the question, ignore the question, or attack I guess? It being online was even easier. She didn't have to engage Deroir at all. She did and she chose to attack. Your example doesn't really make sense.

I'm a teacher and I get evaluations for my classes. If I read a comment in an evaluation and then proceed to attack that person because HOW DARE THEY QUESTION A TEACHER OF 10 YEARS then called them an asshat I would lose my job and rightfully so.

kyle mechlachlan · Jul 11, 2018

Dennis8K said:
If so ResetEra is being condescending to developers non-stop all day every day.

100%, yep.

Heid · Jul 11, 2018

I 100% understood her reaction.

Shes just a writer, not a gameplay designer. She didn't get to decide if there was dialogue options.

She was just doing a post about working within the restraints of not having dialogue options and this guy just says "add dialogue options"

I'm not blaming the guy either, its just an unfortunate situation. Straw that broke the camels back, type of dealio.

Vela · Jul 11, 2018

You know a post is bad when all the people with the most terrible, ignorant, and unsympathetic opinions throughout this thread are agreeing with it and complimenting it.

It's funny how absolutely zero things have been learned or picked up by these posters after engaging with them. Absolutely zero movement or development of an informed opinion. Just the same victim blaming without understanding the context as what this thread began with. Maybe this thread and others are just a complete waste of time and everyone is simply talking in bad faith.

ElectronicOldMen · Jul 11, 2018

Dennis8K said:
If so ResetEra is being condescending to developers non-stop all day every day.

Uh, ding ding ding

hydrophilic attack · Jul 11, 2018

Dennis8K said:
Adam Orth got fired for insulting customers online.

he got fired for breaking nda and confirming to the world that xbone DRM was true, while bringing negative attention to the policies

xbox tried to shift the attention from the DRM towards "insulting customers" but in reality 99.999% of people got upset over the DRM policies, rather than him (accurately) asking why the hell would anyone live in blacksburg, VA (a place that does indeed suck, personal experience)

a stray cat · Jul 11, 2018

newmoneytrash said:
Yeah, but she's not wrong tho

It's also amazing how people have twisted that she said she doesn't need have to play nice to her hating all of the players of her game. She doesn't have to play nice, no one does, especially toward people who are rude and condescending

You really think that only female game developers are constantly bombarded with criticisms of their game? Or that Deroir specifically worded it that way because she's a woman?

And where did I say that she hated all the players of her game? That doesn't matter at all: if you're representing your company, then you have to play by the company handbook -- on the clock or off. You don't get to pretend that your actions don't reflect on your company has a whole if you've posted who you are as part of your credentials for why your opinion matters.

Gentlemen · Jul 11, 2018

It's weird that it's completely accepted that the rando asshat in her mentions is being labeled as 'polite.'
You can still be 'polite' and a complete condescending rando asshat mansplainer, which he very clearly was. He wasn't 'interested in a dialogue' because his opening salvo was a 'well, actually' I-know-better-than-you pile of uninformed airmchair nonsense. That he said it 'politely' is immaterial to the immediate identification of it as a roll of crap.
Furthermore, he absolutely threw a demonstrative tantrum the second she rebuffs him. That he's 'polite' about it is irrelevant, he self-victimizes immediately instead of engaging with a single honest question about why she doesn't see things his way. Of course, when it's the woman, any quick shut down of a bullshitter has got to adhere to a completely arbitrary standard of civility lest it come off as a hysterical attack on an innocent party, but the dude with the enormous audience on youtube can toss up his arms with a "harrumph well I can see my opinion is not valued, gosh I just wanted to have a one-sided conversation about why I'm right and she's wrong---I, uh, I mean I just wanted to have a polite, civil discourse about my handful of pulled-from-my-ass facts about game development" and that instantly gets a fire burning under his followers, in places that largely intersect the pre-existing campaign to harass her.
But no, we gotta talk about her tantrum that amounted to 'shut up' and 'go away' or something. He was """polite""" and is therefore the guiltless victim here. She's the one bringing gender into it, because that's the worst thing ever.

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 11, 2018

DorkyMohr said:
Stick to AMA's then, this is akin to going to a Q&A and then accosting the speaker afterwards as they're headed to their car.

Headed to their car?

That's the analogy you decided to use to describe posting on Twitter, which is probably viewed by largely the very same people who cared about the AMA?

Wallach · Jul 11, 2018

Dennis8K said:
If so ResetEra is being condescending to developers non-stop all day every day.

I mean... do you think this isn't true most of the time? It's basically the default behavior.

Silky · Jul 11, 2018

Dennis8K said:
ResetEra tells developers how to "fix" their games ALL the time.

That is what a videogame discussion forum is for.

Yeah, use a forum

Dont bother random people in game development with tweets on how they should improve a game or something

Abhor · Jul 11, 2018

It's a shame Fries got fired, but he got involved in something stupid and got burned.

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 11, 2018

Relaxed Muscle said:
We don't go to their personal twitter and tell them directly how to do their work.

Price said to Deroir that there was other channels to post his "feedback", but she didn't want it shoved it in her face.

What is this nonsense about "personal Twitter?"

newmoneytrash · Jul 11, 2018

Zefah said:
How? Seriously, how is this unacceptable on the part of Deroir? To you, it's seriously not OK to offer suggestions to devs in regards to problems they have declared might be impossible (thus implying some degree of giving up), especially if they are women?

---

Price:
The dirty secret is I'm not sure if it's possible to make an MMORPG (or CRPG) character compelling, because people have different expectations about what that character will be, as opposed to a pre-designed character in a single-player game.

Deroir:
Really interesting thread to read! However, allow me to disagree *slightly*. I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording seemingly suggest). I believe the issue lies in the contraints of the Living Story's narrative design;

When you want the outcome to be the same across the board for all players' experiences, then yes, by design you are extremely limited in how you can contruct the personality of the PC.

But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express *their* character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), (3 of 4 cause I count seemingly...)

then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread! (End)

Price (the next day):
thanks for trying to tell me what we do internally, my dude 9_9

Price, quoting Deroir's tweet and displaying it to all on her feed:
Today in being a female game dev: "Allow me--a person who does not work with you--explain to you how you do your job."

Deroir, an hour or so later:
You getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it.

It's not unacceptable, he is free to raise any questions or opinions he has. It's that peope, and Derior as well by his reply, felt that Price was obligated to reply to him in a certain manner. Price felt she was being condescended to and pushed back

guek · Jul 11, 2018

newmoneytrash said:
Yeah, but she's not wrong tho

It's also amazing how people have twisted that she said she doesn't need have to play nice to her hating all of the players of her game. She doesn't have to play nice, no one does, especially toward people who are rude and condescending

You can politely be condescended to

Blackbird said:
Bingo.

These past few pages have been something else. Social media and the internet makes people so fucking entitled, and gaming communities are a prime example.

Trace · Jul 11, 2018

Ferris Bueller said:
This situation seems to bring to light the unfortunate snag that we as a community have when it comes to being critical of someone who is "on our side." If she had been exposed as alt-right, no doubt this thread would be full of laughing or reaction gifs, regardless of the validity of her claims. We can't be hypocritical when it comes to situations like this and forming some kind of narrative that Deroir is a bigoted GGer when he's clearly just a fan trying to have a conversation is gross, wrong and the kind of thing you'd expect from GG themselves.

She had just been in a reddit AMA answering questions and comments and her twitter thread was a direct continuation of that. She could have easily ignored the tweet if she didn't want to answer. Deroir's reply was completely polite, and he proposed a solution that he believed would help relieve the issue presented by Price. There is nothing wrong with this, unless we're no longer allowed to make suggestions or criticisms of a game in the presence of one of it's developers? Which is definitely something that happens on Era.

Remember also that the tweet in which Deroir expresses his disappointment that she got angry and apologized was made after she called him an asshat, mansplainer and made him out to be a sexist all because of his suggestion. He definitely wasn't the one who threw a tantrum first.

You can make fun of free speech and applaud all you want when the outcome is in your favor, but acting like Price's behavior was professional and appropriate is not what I'd have expected from Era, given our track record with similar events in the past, and definitely not an ethical response or the truth.

Was Price's behavior, considering she clearly listed her affiliation with ArenaNet on her twitter, appropriate? No.
Did she deserve to have rabid GGers sicced on her? No.
Should she have been fired for this? Debatable. We all know only bad things happen when you use your affiliate twitter account to express your personal opinions in an unprofessional manner.
Did ArenaNet unceremoniously throw her to the wolves after firing her? Absolutely.
Does Deroir deserve to be treated like a terrible individual in this thread? Absolutely not. And if that's what is required to form some kind of defense for Price, then it's time to reevaluate your position.

But acting like her being fired is any sort of surprise after what happened, especially since we're so familiar with it on this forum, and holding the indefensible position that her twitter account should be a safe space for any kind of behavior despite us literally laughing at the prospect until now, shows a really skewed and hypocritical side to our frame of mind as well as our twisted sense of justice.

Sums it all up for me. Great post.

Gasoline · Jul 11, 2018

Abhor said:
happy TotalBiscuit died

Lots of people were

Silky · Jul 11, 2018

Thorn said:
A "personal" twitter where she publically states her name and job, and just had a public AMA.

Her account was not set to private.

It's common courtesy

There are...places...you can go to...to file a complaint...about a video game, called forums

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 11, 2018

newmoneytrash said:
Yeah, but she's not wrong tho

It's also amazing how people have twisted that she said she doesn't need have to play nice to her hating all of the players of her game. She doesn't have to play nice, no one does, especially toward people who are rude and condescending

You can politely be condescended to

Dude... what? You're talking to people about twisting words and you are straight up trying to change this statement: "Since we've got a lot of hurt manfeels today, lemme make something clear: this is my feed. I'm not on the clock here. I'm not your emotional courtesan just because I'm a dev. Don't expect me to pretend to like you here." to her saying "I don't need to play nice."

What are you even doing...

newmoneytrash · Jul 11, 2018

a stray cat said:
You really think that only female game developers are constantly bombarded with criticisms of their game? Or that Deroir specifically worded it that way because she's a woman?

And where did I say that she hated all the players of her game? That doesn't matter at all: if you're representing your company, then you have to play by the company handbook -- on the clock or off. You don't get to pretend that your actions don't reflect on your company has a whole if you've posted who you are as part of your credentials for why your opinion matters.

Male devs also receive the same kind of condescension. I'm not going to vilify a woman for taking exception to a man with no qualifications in her role telling her how she should view it as an act of mild sexism

Zefah said:
Dude... what? You're talking to people about twisting words and you are straight up trying to change this statement: "Since we've got a lot of hurt manfeels today, lemme make something clear: this is my feed. I'm not on the clock here. I'm not your emotional courtesan just because I'm a dev. Don't expect me to pretend to like you here." to her saying "I don't need to play nice."

What are you even doing...

So I didn't quote her verbatim, the sentiment is the same. Her tweet doesn't mean that she dislikes *all* people who interact with her game, it's just on her personal account she isn't going to eat shit from people with a smile

Deleted member 15326 · Jul 11, 2018

Zefah said:
How? Seriously, how is this unacceptable on the part of Deroir? To you, it's seriously not OK to offer suggestions to devs in regards to problems they have declared might be impossible (thus implying some degree of giving up), especially if they are women?

---

Price:
The dirty secret is I'm not sure if it's possible to make an MMORPG (or CRPG) character compelling, because people have different expectations about what that character will be, as opposed to a pre-designed character in a single-player game.

Deroir:
Really interesting thread to read! However, allow me to disagree *slightly*. I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording seemingly suggest). I believe the issue lies in the contraints of the Living Story's narrative design;

When you want the outcome to be the same across the board for all players' experiences, then yes, by design you are extremely limited in how you can contruct the personality of the PC.

But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express *their* character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), (3 of 4 cause I count seemingly...)

then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread! (End)

Price (the next day):
thanks for trying to tell me what we do internally, my dude 9_9

Price, quoting Deroir's tweet and displaying it to all on her feed:
Today in being a female game dev: "Allow me--a person who does not work with you--explain to you how you do your job."

Deroir, an hour or so later:
You getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it.

I'm laughing at how plain this exchange is but somehow the streamer is the asshat

ElectronicOldMen · Jul 11, 2018

Abhor said:
It's a shame Fries got fired, but he got involved in something stupid and got burned.

I have no qualms with Price being fired. She's a vile woman who was happy TotalBiscuit died along with a number of other eyebrow-raising things. She verbally abused a PARTNER to Arenanet and made a gender issue out of literally nothing. She also attacked other people aside from Deroir.

And lol @ anyone that thinks there is a shred of malice in Deroir's tweet(s).

saying that she was 'happy totalbiscuit died' as if that's a negative character flaw? the guy fucking sucked shit

bad poster · Jul 11, 2018

Zefah said:
What is this nonsense about "personal Twitter?"

they made it so that you can register for an account without representing a brand

Dennis8K · Jul 11, 2018

Silky said:
It's common courtesy

There are...places...you can go to...to file a complaint...about a video game, called forums

You understand that developers often want their community to engage and give their opinion on their games, right?

She did just that. An AMA on reddit.

How was this guy to know he wasn't allowed to offer her suggestions on twitter?

QueenPriscilla · Jul 11, 2018

213372bu said:
@ing a writer you admire on a couple feedback tweets = LITERALLY SHOVING IT IN THEIR FACE

Sicking the horde of angry MMO nerds after her and taking her livleyhood away from her is shoving it in her face.

Why don't you get on my level?

Avitus · Jul 11, 2018

Labor said:
I'm laughing at how plain this exchange is but somehow the streamer is the asshat

Yeah, it's really not hard to see why an employer would have a problem with that sort of exchange and would decide to let her go.

QueenPriscilla said:
Sicking the horde of angry MMO nerds after her and taking her livleyhood away from her is shoving it in her face.

Why don't you get on my level?

Where did Deroir do any of this or am I missing something?

a stray cat · Jul 11, 2018

newmoneytrash said:
Male devs also receive the same kind of condescension. I'm not going to vilify a woman for taking exception to a man with no qualifications in her role telling her how she should view it as an act of mild sexism

So when a female dev receives the same sort of criticism a male dev does, she's allowed to interpret it as sexism because she's a woman?

DorkyMohr · Jul 11, 2018

Abhor said:
It's a shame Fries got fired, but he got involved in something stupid and got burned.

I have no qualms with Price being fired. She's a vile woman who was happy TotalBiscuit died along with a number of other eyebrow-raising things. She verbally abused a PARTNER to Arenanet and made a gender issue out of literally nothing. She also attacked other people aside from Deroir.

And lol @ anyone that thinks there is a shred of malice in Deroir's tweet(s).

I can't count the number of bad takes in this.

Thorn · Jul 11, 2018

Silky said:
It's common courtesy

There are...places...you can go to...to file a complaint...about a video game, called forums

Twitter is a public platform. He didn't barge into a private discord or chat group.

If she doesn't want people approaching her on twitter she can set her account to private. Or just block them.

Instead she responded abrasively on a public platform and it lead to the company she represented publically to fire her.

JudgmentJay · Jul 11, 2018

Gentlemen said:
It's weird that it's completely accepted that the rando asshat in her mentions is being labeled as 'polite.'
You can still be 'polite' and a complete condescending rando asshat mansplainer, which he very clearly was. He wasn't 'interested in a dialogue' because his opening salvo was a 'well, actually' I-know-better-than-you pile of uninformed airmchair nonsense. That he said it 'politely' is immaterial to the immediate identification of it as a roll of crap.
Furthermore, he absolutely threw a demonstrative tantrum the second she rebuffs him. That he's 'polite' about it is irrelevant, he self-victimizes immediately instead of engaging with a single honest question about why she doesn't see things his way. Of course, when it's the woman, any quick shut down of a bullshitter has got to adhere to a completely arbitrary standard of civility lest it come off as a hysterical attack on an innocent party, but the dude with the enormous audience on youtube can toss up his arms with a "harrumph well I can see my opinion is not valued, gosh I just wanted to have a one-sided conversation about why I'm right and she's wrong---I, uh, I mean I just wanted to have a polite, civil discourse about my handful of pulled-from-my-ass facts about game development" and that instantly gets a fire burning under his followers, in places that largely intersect the pre-existing campaign to harass her.
But no, we gotta talk about her tantrum that amounted to 'shut up' and 'go away' or something. He was """polite""" and is therefore the guiltless victim here. She's the one bringing gender into it, because that's the worst thing ever.

Fucking yikes post #2. Some of ya'll are literally insane.

Giever · Jul 11, 2018

newmoneytrash said:
You're not wrong

Fistfulofmetal said:
100%, yep.

ElectronicOldMen said:
Uh, ding ding ding

What's the alternative? Not talk about games or critique them at all in a public space simply because many of us aren't game developers and don't know the subject as well? If the idea is that there's no way to politely criticize and analyze a game in a public space while being 'lesser' (not a professional developer) then that's just foolish.

Chettlar · Jul 11, 2018

DorkyMohr said:
Your tone is really gross. It's "unfortunate" when people conform to what a hate group thinks of them? Get out with that.

Is it not unfortunate?

Gamergate says these people will make everything about gender, even when it wasn't about that. Price made this about gender even when the streamer did not intend on doing so. How does this not fit with what Gamergate says will happen?

At what point am I saying Gamergate is right in doing this? Dude my whole point is that its slimy and gross. They exploit any outburst and use to support their rhetoric, while simultaneously, for example, not getting angry at male developers who do the same thing.

Like, that's literally how propoganda works. Is propoganda not unfortunate? Propoganda takes real things that happen and use them to push a twisted narrative. Sometimes they will work to manufacture or provoke those things into happening. So it is unfortunate when that happens.

What I am saying is Gamergate and really all propganda is based on a massive weaponized confirmation bias.

It would be like a child saying his sibling is being mean, and to prove it, provokes the sibling into being mean. Make no mistake, the original child is at fault here, but it's unfortunate that sibling reacted that way, because it just confirms the confirmation bias of the parent or whoever. How is that not unfortunate?

I'm not sure how to put how upset I am in a way you find palatable. I am just venting my frustrations at how this stuff happens.

It doesn't mean I totally think Price is justified but at the same time, I understand why she reacted that way. I'm saying that because maybe I would have reacted the same way if I was her, ya dig? I would hope I wouldn't, because I think it would be better to act differently, but we're all human, and she has been the target or repeated harrassment.

I am upset at the situation. It is unfortunate. I can also sympathize with her and how she acted while also recognizing that it was an overreaction to that specific instance, which, unfortunately feeds into a toxic narrative Gamergate tried to push.

I'm not sure how to make that more clear.

The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)

User requested ban

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested ban

Top Mog

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth

User requested account closure

Alt Account

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested account closure

User requested ban