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Separating Games from their Creators - Kingdom Come: Deliverance
- Thread starter Dictator
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Have a quick scroll through the first page or two and you will find plenty of evidence as to why Vavra is a shitty person.
I'm still looking for examples of Vavra being "openly sexist" specifically. These examples shown are anti-antifa, anti-socialism, anti-Sarkeesian, pro-Israel, and mostly not even related to women while being written by other people. I want to know what exactly is being alleged as an example of Vavra being "openly sexist".
You're advocating so fiercely for more diversity in video games that you seem to forget this is a game made by Slavic people about Slavic people, a group which has suffered a lot through history, is barely represented in video games themselves and is still subject to extreme forms of discrimination today. Yet people don't seem to care about that. Instead of celebrating the fact that Kingdom Come: Deliverance is a major boon for diversity in video games, people are being openly dismissive about it. I don't understand this attitude...at all. I'm not talking about people criticizing Vavra but people refusing to concede that Kingdom Come: Deliverance is a diverse game in and of itself and adds diversity to the Western and Japanese dominated video game market.
To address your other point: I think there are plenty of reasons that explain why Warhorse Studios did not add e.g. black people in the game.
- From a historical point of view it is very unlikely they lived in a 8 km² rural area in 15th century Bohemia. So this decision would not score very high points on the historical accuracy scale.
- A black person would stand out a lot in such a place. You cannot simply portray them as the Jones family living next door, you need to address how people interacted with them. I can very well imagine that Warhorse Studios had no interest in exploring black-white race relations in 15th century rural Bohemia as there would be no documentation about it and because the focus of their game is so narrow. There is already plenty of racial and religious conflict present in the region, with Magyar, Turkic, German and Czech people present and the upcoming proto-Protestant Hussite religion about to clash with Catholicism.
- Warhorse mentioned that they found a (vague) reference about a black person present at the court in Prague, a few decennia after the events of the game. His role was that of a slave. I doubt that would have gone over well here.
Oh right, you're doing the "I won't admit he's a misogynist until I see him yelling for all women to get back in the kitchen where they belong" shtick?
You know what, carry on.
It's like you completely ignored the first quote in your post in every way possible. It doesn't seem like you even read it.
No, I'm looking for something he said or did that indicates he hold sexist views.
Damore is a sexist idiot. People who take up his defense might not be doing so because they agree with what he said though, and might just be opposed what they perceive as him being fired over his political views. I don't really know what Vavra has said about him, but I do know that Vavra has said he regrets his "thoughtless" statements, that he wouldn't have said them if he had thought more carefully about things.
I haven't forgotten a thing. Diversity isn't a zero sum game. Including other minorities in their game wouldn't detract from the experience or presentation of Slavic culture and history and simply because they're making a game about an underrepresented group doesn't give them a free pass to criticisms and discussion about the larger topic of diversity. Which once again all comes back to Vavra and his actions that are why this fact is getting lost in the debate. This would be dramatically different discussion if not for him.
There are other minorities in the game: Germans, Swiss, Magyar, Turkic. The developers have also talked about Jews and Romani but I am not sure whether they will also be present. And yeah, it's partly because of Vavra that people aren't recognizing this but also partly because some people want to paint this game in the worst light possible. And then it's difficult to admit that the game you are boycotting actually promotes diversity in the video game genre.
I'm not going to get down into the specifics of this game and its creator but will offer a general "hot take": If the creator of a piece of media you want to consume is such an asshole that you are considering having second thoughts, remember all the other pieces of media you could/have been meaning to/want to but never got around to consuming that don't have asshole creators and support them with your time and money instead. You've got choices - its never "support this asshole or play no more videogames for the rest of the day/week/month/year/your life". The art someone creates doesn't always reflect their personal beliefs and preferences but overall I see no real need to separate the artist (assuming we mean living artists) from their art. It just depends on where your "line" is so to speak and what that says or doesn't say about you.
I did read it, which is why I was citing exact examples from the links. The only retweeted content of Molyneux's that I've seen posted here had to do with gun control. Molyneux might very well be sexist and racist, I'm not going to waste my time listening to his tripe to find out, but someone isn't guilty of sexism by association when they retweet his videos on gun control and follow him, for example. I see that same pattern with other notorious figures like Posobiec (rt re:Jerusalem), Watson (anti-antifa, gun control), Kirk (anti-socialism), McInnes (anti-PC), DTJ (anti-socialism), Eric Trump (media bias), etc. Again, I'm sure a lot of these people are terrible, most hold sexist views, but the examples don't show him retweeting sexist things, only retweeting people who can be described as sexist promoting a separate issue.
I find the people he follows to be distasteful to say the least, but I'm hoping to be able to see something a bit more solid and clear if we're going to say he's "openly sexist".
Beleive me, people living around this part of the world the inclusion of czech, german and hungarian people is the 'larger topic of diversity'. Of course the us movies/tv shows/games very popular here but regardless of that, we are prety much detached from the whole race topic over there. There are 4 countries in a 70 km radius where I live, people spoke 4 completely different languages and passionetly hate each other. For you they might be just 'white dudes', but there is a world of difference between them. This is the diversity people see every day here, not the colour of the skin.
I'm not tring to downplay the racial diversity, just merely showing we have very different thoughts on the topic.
Vávra really has gone out of his way to fuck with the team's success. Then again, who knows what the other developer's agree/disagree with him on. I fully understand dissociating art from creator, but if his shitty opinions start to bleed into the game's writing/tone - I don't know if I could tolerate it. We've already got the "it's historically accurate" rationale to conveniently cover exclusion.
It's funny because I feel like he's a passionate man, and he wants to make a good game. I've always loved the first Mafia game and finding out that this man was behind the game was pretty awful. Then again, I try not to get too invested in knowing who the artist is/personal and political views, because that always seems to make me loathe the creator. This man has gone out of his way to ensure that everyone knows how much he loves GG, MRA and whatever other nonsense he believes in. And in doing so, sure he's alienated some of the gaming audience, but I get the feeling he's the type that doesn't want a lot of people playing his game. Especially those that don't believe in the same shit.
And shout out to Warhorse(whatever part Vávra isn't monitoring) for coming forward a couple weeks before launch to do the slightest of damage control. Y'all should've been more vocal and professional about distancing the bullish opinions of one man from the entire team. I've read a lot of the developer Q+A's with other members of the team, they seem like decent people of like all types of art! I backed the game way back when, but it's been pretty hilarious to see how all this ugliness has played out.
It's funny because I feel like he's a passionate man, and he wants to make a good game. I've always loved the first Mafia game and finding out that this man was behind the game was pretty awful. Then again, I try not to get too invested in knowing who the artist is/personal and political views, because that always seems to make me loathe the creator. This man has gone out of his way to ensure that everyone knows how much he loves GG, MRA and whatever other nonsense he believes in. And in doing so, sure he's alienated some of the gaming audience, but I get the feeling he's the type that doesn't want a lot of people playing his game. Especially those that don't believe in the same shit.
And shout out to Warhorse(whatever part Vávra isn't monitoring) for coming forward a couple weeks before launch to do the slightest of damage control. Y'all should've been more vocal and professional about distancing the bullish opinions of one man from the entire team. I've read a lot of the developer Q+A's with other members of the team, they seem like decent people of like all types of art! I backed the game way back when, but it's been pretty hilarious to see how all this ugliness has played out.
I think it is really testament to the echochamberism to seriously believe this will impact the sales in any relevant way whatsoever.
I agree that is super important and fully falls under the umbrella of the larger topic of diversity. This isn't a debate about one form of diversity being more important than another, that because everyone is "white" it matters less. But it has largely taken that shape due to Vavra's statements and actions which has squarely focused all the attention on the inclusion of Africans. Eastern Europeans in general fall victim to being marginalized and portrayed negatively in media, if at all. Their cultural and ethnic differences, diversity, contributions and history are routinely mis-characterized, left out and forgotten in favor of the big Western European nations or Russia. So it is great that a native Czech developer is able to make a game portraying that for people to experience and see done right.
But again it all falls back to Vavra and his statements and character in all this. If all we had was the initial responses from Warhorse this wouldn't be an issue. Some might still be debating the merits and historicity of including Black characters, and I'd still agree with that, but few people would actually fault or act as though Warhorse/KC:D was at all problematic for not including them. Everything about this stems from Vavra's history and incredibly aggressive responses to the initial question of diversity in the game and the MedievalPOC post that followed. Instead of being thoughtful and engaging with the topic he acted like a child and tried to use historical accuracy as a hammer to crush debate and as a shield for why they absolutely could not include them and then ridiculed anyone who suggested otherwise.
Not including Black characters at the start or at all isn't the problem, it's how he chose to address the question and debate once it came up that was. That's how this stuff always goes. More often than not the lack of minorities isn't what becomes the real issue it's the response to that fact that really creates the controversy. You can't be all things to all people and be aware of everything, that's why most people just try and ask that creators try to be more conscious of their decisions and choices and when issues get brought up to listen, engage and be honest with themselves and us. Everyone is going to fail or get criticism over their choices one time or another it's how you choose to respond to that that shows who you really are.
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That is the only part that matters to me really. On its face, it doesn't seem to. If its historically accurate, its historically accurate...I don't know we can say whether he wanted to be historically accurate just so he can exclude people. Thats a little silly.
To me, its as simple as whether Warhorse made a game I want to buy. They did. I will buy it. Sure, there could be some set of facts out there that would change this analysis, but as I know them now, the analysis is as simple as that.
This is a good quote. It is different in that part of the world. It requires a different analysis and a different lens when viewing these types of things (ethnicity, race, etc). Americans just see "white people" but its more complicated than that.
How is he a Nazi? do you have any evidence for this?
Czech people suffered horrendously under the Nazi's (and the then the communists). You should not wildly throw such outrageous accusations.
Would you prefer the term, "Neo-nazi"? Or perhaps "Alt right"? All these terms are interchangable to me. Since "Alt right" doesn't carry the baggage of "Nazi" like it needs to, I prefer the tact of calling a shoe a shoe.
Can you show me any evidence that he has said anything racist?
I don't keep a log of everyone who has been Wrong On The Internet in order to win forum arguments.
There were ethnic minorities in China during the Three Kingdoms Period. A lack of representation in DW9 does require the same amount of thoughtful discussion regarding the portrayal of minorities in video games. Though the difference is the developer hasn't openly stated that "due to 'historical accuracy' there are no PoC in Ancient China."
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I'm assuming this refers to a different t-shirt than the one below? I can't find info on any other than this:
I tried that at the bottom of the previous page with sexism and it worked out just about as well for me as it is for you lol.
He said that in response to criticism over the lack of PoC, which came first. See Enduin's post above.
So it's ok to go round accusing people of being nazis without any evidence?
If you're confident enough in your own memory of events and don't want to do the chore of digging through many archives to find what you're looking for. "I haven't been presented with evidence" is not the same as "It never happened". The only thing that can happen in this situation is that you don't believe me, which believe it or not, I can live with.
Also look at the other posts sandwhiching this one. They're a nice complimentary meal.
See, here's the thing. I engaged with this thread under the assumption that everybody in it was informed about the developer's leanings. This was not an unfair assumption to make, given that in every thread about this game, many people whine about being reminded that the lead developer is an awful person.
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Supporting GG is a contribution to sexism in the industry.
As a recognizable, well regarded developer with a large fanbase, you lend credibility to the movement by endorsing it.
Turning a blind eye to the mobilization of gendered harassment, attacks and attempts at forcing said groups out of the industry isn't really excusable.
Yeah, it seems like he brought it upon himself by making some outrageous claims that ballooned the controversy. Would have been better for the game to just either ignore it or downplay it. But these discussions can be healthy for the art form as a whole, and there has to be some sort of catalyst to get people to talk.
The man follows Breitbart and fucking Mike Cernovich.
You know, Neo-Nazis.
Agreed. Definitely the type of game I'd pick up and sink my time into as long as it's good.
I agree with you that the movement was disingenuous and started right off the bat with sexist attitudes, prioritised attacking women even over provably false accusations, and had a chilling effect on women in the industry. They yelled at the socjus side to not use women as shields while literally using a drawing of a girl to espouse their views for them as an effective shield. I agree with you that it's even more disappointing and problematic for a dev to support such a movement because as you said, it lends credibility and can help trick others into believing there is any merit in their claims that they just stood for journalistic ethics and in opposition to censorship. I'm not disputing that his involvement with the movement was extremely poor judgment and display of flagrant ignorance. I also think Sarkeesian's work was balanced, fair, and if anything a bit too tame and obvious. People who think she's attempting to censor anyone or that she's misandrist are so laughably uninformed that I have to conclude they never watched her videos and only watched reaction-videos.
But that alone still doesn't count as evidence of being "openly sexist". Yes, you can argue it contributes to sexism in the industry by lending credibility to the movement, but that's not quite the same thing as directly being openly sexist oneself. Again, I don't want to attach a label like that to someone merely through association.
I'll be okay with skipping out on this game because I have plenty of other games to play. I don't need to support Vavra and his views to play a cool game.
I don't care about the politics. Is the game good? Does it seem like something I would have fun with?
Not buying this game isn't going to fix any of the world's problems and only serves to stoke the egos of people who concern themselves too much about judging what other people think. Buy the game don't buy the game but it doesn't make you more virtuous than people who choose to buy it or make them less supportive of good causes.
Not buying this game isn't going to fix any of the world's problems and only serves to stoke the egos of people who concern themselves too much about judging what other people think. Buy the game don't buy the game but it doesn't make you more virtuous than people who choose to buy it or make them less supportive of good causes.
I think McCarthy-like blacklisting for association or affiliation with groups deemed subversively communist is bad, and not just because the government did it, and I don't want to be a hypocrite.
Also from what I've seen, the game looks far less sexist (in that I don't see any sexism at all) than a lot of beloved mainstream games that I dare not name for fear of getting a million angry notifications, but let's just say that a few may rhyme with Meaty Bae Live, Beer For Monica, Clean Your Spade n' Monocles Too, Dun Pinch Yer Pee, and Whey in Feta, and they might tempt me to speculate about the views of their devs.
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So do you not think people should vote with their wallets? Even going beyond this game, do you think people who choose to not buy certain games because they don't like practices such as loot boxes or microtransactions are just doing it to stroke their own ego?
If i accept that i can purchase games from developers that i want to support because of what they signify, like MidBoss, i must also have to consider not purchasing some games because of developers that i don't want to support, so that's simple for me. Not even a question of not buying, at all times i have the option of choosing to purchase something that i'm more comfortable with instead and that's it.
Pretty condescending to imply that people who aren't buying this game are just doing it to feel self-righteous.
we're really gonna compare this to dynasty warriors now...?
i'm old enough to remember when this was simply called "civil rights"
it's always towards the end, right? also, good to see you, man.
can't say for certain yet (he's got an easy out blaming the "SJWs" or jews or whatever if it does, of course), but "echochamberism" is quite the word to use here
amen - i don't need to have a drink with a white nationalist/supremacist/nazi/etc to see which boxes they check off, the overlap is tremendous and the end goal is the same regardless
i'd argue denying white supremacists a platform at every turn has demonstrably good effects, historically speaking
and i'm careful to not use blanket judgments for folks on here, but: yes, it does make you a bit less supportive. to varying degrees, certainly, but: if, say, a fast food chain was led by open homophobia and supported some very harmful things in that name & one chose to patronize them regardless, it very much can be argued they're less supportive of that cause, i'd think
Why are people fixated on the lack of PoC in this game, even though it has been confirmed that there will be other historically accurate ethnicities (Turkish, Cuman)?
Why has the same criticism never been levied against Japanese games/animation where all the characters are white? I don't remember people losing their shit over FFXV, Nier Automata or Mario Odyssey not being diverse enough.
Why has the same criticism never been levied against Japanese games/animation where all the characters are white? I don't remember people losing their shit over FFXV, Nier Automata or Mario Odyssey not being diverse enough.
There are human beings that like the music and own shirts of Burzum that are not trash, or racist, or burn churches or do in any way sympathize with Varg Vikkernes fucked up ideologies (that he mostly left out of the music). You can criticize people for liking music of criminals, your choice, but if you call them trash human beings for only being a fan of something how do you call criminals like murderers or rapists etc? Forget it, i probably don't want to know.
People should do what they want off course, i don't believe it will have a great influence on sales either way. As for your comparison it depends on the case for me. Does it influence the game in a negative way? Loot Boxes and microtransactions can hurt games. If a game is propaganda and shoves its ideology (be it left or right) straight in your face it can hurt the game too. Don't see it in this game tbh.
I will buy the game cause it's interesting and has an unused setting. Not every game needs black characters, or chinese characters or white characters ( i know they are overrepresentated, but this little polish game is not the place to argue about that imo) and in this case it makes sense. Vavra being burzum fan or even saying some not so intelligent things while fighting on the internet doesn't hurt the games quality. But like i said, everyone can spend his money on what they want, nobody is forced to buy specific games.
Because of the developer's method of handwaving it.
If he had not opened his mouth, nobody would care. It's all about motivation. That's what makes it different-- because it is different.
And you clearly weren't paying attention with FFXV, because people gave Tabata (justified imo, as much as I love the game and the sheer effort he put into it) shit over his reasonings for not wanting any playable women. The thing these two situations have in common is that the person involved gave reasons that could be reasonably interpeted as bullshit. Then, people put the KC developers' reasonings in context with his political leanings and came to their own, likewise justified, conclusions.
You are comparing apples and oranges in an effort to convince people that apples are in fact the same as oranges.
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we're really gonna compare this to dynasty warriors now...?
I can't compare an Apple to an Apple because you've decided to take this instance personally?
People aren't fixated on it. It was one issue brought up that the director responded to by going full Gamergator and alt-right instead of sensibly addressing it. Now the defenders of this asshole use the 'PoC in Medieval Bohemia' issue as their target because it's much easier than defending the actual guy and his attitudes which led to this entire thing.
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