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Nov 29, 2017
183
Pismo Beach, CA
Because of the developer's method of handwaving it.

If he had not opened his mouth, nobody would care. It's all about motivation. That's what makes it different-- because it is different.

And you clearly weren't paying attention with FFXV, because people gave Tabata (justified imo, as much as I love the game and the sheer effort he put into it) shit over his reasonings for not wanting any playable women. The thing these two situations have in common is that the person involved gave reasons that could be reasonably interpeted as bullshit. Then, people put the KC developers' reasonings in context with his political leanings and came to their own, likewise justified, conclusions.

You are comparing apples and oranges in an effort to convince people that apples are in fact the same as oranges.

His hand waving is his personality in dealing with nonsensical criticism about not bending to current social norms to represent a historical era of a nation he is from. Nowhere did he say fuck POC. There are POC in there already. Apparently POC must mean one color that needs to be represented. It's just insane. The fact this thread has gone to 12 pages is just utterly gross.

If somebody shows me this guy being racist then my mind will change. But as it stands. This is a game I and many others have wanted for a long time.
 
Nov 29, 2017
183
Pismo Beach, CA
People aren't fixated on it. It was one issue brought up that the director responded to by going full Gamergator and alt-right instead of sensibly addressing it. Now the defenders of this asshole use the 'PoC in Medieval Bohemia' issue as their target because it's much easier than defending the actual guy and his attitudes which led to this entire thing.

Where did he go Gamergator alt right? If so I am absolutely wrong about this stuff.
 

Kitsunelaine

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Oct 25, 2017
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His hand waving is his personality in dealing with nonsensical criticism about not bending to current social norms to represent a historical era of a nation he is from. Nowhere did he say fuck POC.

"He's not insulting POC, he's just not bending to """"""""""current social norms""""""""""".

I can not reconcile these two statements because they internally conflict.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,624
canada
There are human beings that like the music and own shirts of Burzum that are not trash, or racist, or burn churches or do in any way sympathize with Varg Vikkernes fucked up ideologies (that he mostly left out of the music). You can criticize people for liking music of criminals, your choice, but if you call them trash human beings for only being a fan of something how do you call criminals like murderers or rapists etc? Forget it, i probably don't want to know.



People should do what they want off course, i don't believe it will have a great influence on sales either way. As for your comparison it depends on the case for me. Does it influence the game in a negative way? Loot Boxes and microtransactions can hurt games. If a game is propaganda and shoves its ideology (be it left or right) straight in your face it can hurt the game too. Don't see it in this game tbh.

I will buy the game cause it's interesting and has an unused setting. Not every game needs black characters, or chinese characters or white characters ( i know they are overrepresentated, but this little polish game is not the place to argue about that imo) and in this case it makes sense. Vavra being burzum fan or even saying some not so intelligent things while fighting on the internet doesn't hurt the games quality. But like i said, everyone can spend his money on what they want, nobody is forced to buy specific games.

I was half joking

the other half, being honest, is that beyond Vargs being a murderer his music sounds like ass imo.
 

Virtua

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
512
So do you not think people should vote with their wallets? Even going beyond this game, do you think people who choose to not buy certain games because they don't like practices such as loot boxes or microtransactions are just doing it to stroke their own ego?

In the grand scheme of things buying/not buying a videogame is pretty much meaningless as a choice, except when it comes to the business of videogames. So objecting to business practices in the videogames industry, that might matter, in the context of the videogames industry.

But when it comes to society as a whole, if Kingdom Come Deliverance sells 8 million copies or 80,000 copies has little to no effect or importance. Therefore the only actual effect is someone feeling better about themselves.
 
Nov 29, 2017
183
Pismo Beach, CA
"He's not insulting POC, he's just not bending to """"""""""current social norms""""""""""".

I can not reconcile these two statements because they internally conflict.

How would you like me to speak English? Please. Be auto correct for me .

SOCIAL NORMS.

AKA WHAT IS NORMAL FOR SOCIETY.

Society, now, is multi-ethnic and a variety of colors. It's still mostly white in America, but its still German, Irish, Italian, greek, and hispanic white. Then there is a lot more colors that exist. That is normal. That's America. People are freely w hatever they want to be now.

Medieval Bohemia wasn't.
 

Kitsunelaine

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Oct 25, 2017
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How would you like me to speak English? Please. Be auto correct for me .

SOCIAL NORMS.

AKA WHAT IS NORMAL FOR SOCIETY.

Society, now, is multi-ethnic and a variety of colors. It's still mostly white in America, but its still German, Irish, Italian, greek, and hispanic white. Then there is a lot more colors that exist. That is normal. That's America. People are freely w hatever they want to be now.

Medieval Bohemia wasn't.

Do you have anything to back up this claim aside from the developers' heavily biased assertions? From what I can tell it's heavily disputed.

Also as for proof of this dude's assholery, in part at least, all you have to do is go back one page. https://www.resetera.com/threads/se...m-come-deliverance.17250/page-12#post-4245534 https://www.resetera.com/threads/se...m-come-deliverance.17250/page-12#post-4245821 (Click the post linked within that last link, it's worth it.)
 
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flyinj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,025
The guy retweeted Kekistan flags and memes several times. You know, that group that was marching with the Nazis in Charlottesville, chanting "Jews will not replace us".
 

Kitsunelaine

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Out of curiosity, are there any PoC in Skyrim?

Even if there weren't, this is a reductive look at the issue at hand because, if it *had* no PoC and we take that as true for the sake of argument (I can't actually remember, lmao, even though I played a bunch of that game), Skyrim didn't try to excuse it away with lore or "realism".
 

RPGamer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,435
Because of the developer's method of handwaving it.

If he had not opened his mouth, nobody would care. It's all about motivation. That's what makes it different-- because it is different.

And you clearly weren't paying attention with FFXV, because people gave Tabata (justified imo, as much as I love the game and the sheer effort he put into it) shit over his reasonings for not wanting any playable women. The thing these two situations have in common is that the person involved gave reasons that could be reasonably interpeted as bullshit. Then, people put the KC developers' reasonings in context with his political leanings and came to their own, likewise justified, conclusions.

You are comparing apples and oranges in an effort to convince people that apples are in fact the same as oranges.

He explained his motivation and he was more correct about it than some media linking to US history blogs that don't even mention bohemia. Even german news outlets copy pasted the links and talked about a nazi whitewashing his game without even reading the sources. That were the mainpoints of some articles i read, whitewashing bohemia (lol) and his burzum t-shirt (he wears burzum he has to be a nazi). He is a controverse personality, he doesn't like political correctness or people telling him how to make his job, but he wasn't treated absolutley fair either.
 
Nov 29, 2017
183
Pismo Beach, CA
Do you have anything to back up this claim aside from the developers' heavily biased assertions? From what I can tell it's heavily disputed.

I should have said I don't think it wasn't.

I honestly have no clue. lol.

But it definitely SEEMS like it wouldn't.

The game is set in 1403. So honestly you'd have to talk to a historian. But wikipedia doesn't SEEM to show any POC as living in Chech Republic now.
 

Kitsunelaine

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I should have said I don't think it wasn't.

I honestly have no clue. lol.

But it definitely SEEMS like it wouldn't.

The game is set in 1403. So honestly you'd have to talk to a historian. But wikipedia doesn't SEEM to show any POC as living in Chech Republic now.

Reality isn't defined by "seems', and "seems" isn't an excuse to argue with hostility to people who hold a differing view on the matter.

Are you going to address the posts that gave you the proof you asked for of this guy's political leanings or are you going to ignore them?

He explained his motivation and he was more correct about it than some media linking to US history blogs that don't even mention bohemia. Even german news outlets copy pasted the links and talked about a nazi whitewashing his game without even reading the sources. That were the mainpoints of some articles i read, whitewashing bohemia (lol) and his burzum t-shirt (he wears burzum he has to be a nazi). He is a controverse personality, he doesn't like political correctness or people telling him how to make his job, but he wasn't treated absolutley fair either.

This post would all be well and good if you weren't trying to pretend that that's all the evidence there was that this guy's a huge piece of shit.
 
Nov 29, 2017
183
Pismo Beach, CA
Reality isn't defined by "seems', and "seems" isn't an excuse to argue with hostility to people who hold a differing view on the matter.

Are you going to address the posts that gave you the proof you asked for of this guy's political leanings or are you going to ignore them?



This post would all be well and good if you weren't trying to pretend that that's all the evidence there was that this guy's a huge piece of shit.

He follows UN Watch.

Sean Hannity...

Trump...


Game that satires Black Lives Matter.

Brietbart tech (the fuck?)

Greg Gutfield

James Woods

Hmm.



Okay he may hold shitbag viewpoints.
 

Kitsunelaine

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He follows UN Watch.

Sean Hannity...

Trump...


Game that satires Black Lives Matter.

Brietbart tech (the fuck?)

Greg Gutfield

James Woods

Hmm.



Okay he may hold shitbag viewpoints.

Thanks for admitting that. No seriously, thanks. People who are willing to change their views on the internet when confronted with evidence are rare and should be applauded. Don't take this as condescending, I'm genuinely happy right now. (It can be exhausting relitigating this stuff to no avail, so seeing progress somewhere is something to be cherished.)
 

RPGamer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,435
I was half joking

the other half, being honest, is that beyond Vargs being a murderer his music sounds like ass imo.

That's ok, and i can understand that it does look bad if you say you are fan of his music, he is indeed a terrible person. And for the music, i like one Burzum album, it's good (for the genre), but i have trouble enjoying it nowadays with the background of the guy/band. It's just that i know a person that is the opposite of a nazi or anything that would hurt people, i would even call him leftist (in a good way) but he likes the music and owns some shirts (can't be helped). I only mentioned the "garbage" cause it was so often used in the old forum, for litterally everything and personally i really dislike calling people trash or garbage if they aren't really worse criminals etc., perhaps i'm too sensitive in that regard.
 

jiggle

Member
Dec 23, 2017
4,551
That's pretty damning
Ew
Gross




The two statements read like they came from the same PR firm
 

SHØGVN

Member
Oct 29, 2017
258
Even if there weren't, this is a reductive look at the issue at hand because, if it *had* no PoC and we take that as true for the sake of argument (I can't actually remember, lmao, even though I played a bunch of that game), Skyrim didn't try to excuse it away with lore or "realism".

OK, but I don't think anyone at Warhorse is excusing the issue or handwaving it, or at least they are genuinely defending their choice. Quoting the co-founder:

Now comes the argument of the critics, but what about black people? After more than four years of intensive research, it can be stated that there is no proof that there were no dark-skinned people in Bohemia and vice versa. There are many things that we can not prove, otherwise we would have to assume, for example, that lions would have lived in the forests of Bohemia - after all, the coat of arms of the ruling house is adorned with a lion. Where else could people have had this portrait?

I think we should take this statement at its word here, there is no underlying racism behind this choice or anything malicious behind it. Taking Vavra's personal politics out of the equation (which I think has been over-emphasized in influencing the game's development), they did FOUR YEARS of research on the history, hired research historian Joanna Nowak to consult on the project, and the result is there are no black people represented in this slice of medieval Bohemia.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,624
canada
That's ok, and i can understand that it does look bad if you say you are fan of his music, he is indeed a terrible person. And for the music, i like one Burzum album, it's good (for the genre), but i have trouble enjoying it nowadays with the background of the guy/band. It's just that i know a person that is the opposite of a nazi or anything that would hurt people, i would even call him leftist (in a good way) but he likes the music and owns some shirts (can't be helped). I only mentioned the "garbage" cause it was so often used in the old forum, for litterally everything and personally i really dislike calling people trash or garbage if they aren't really worse criminals etc., perhaps i'm too sensitive in that regard.

no worries, we good.

Its not like liking a particular bit of music makes you morally good or bad. Like Ive met horrid Tswift fans in my life and ive met good ones too
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,968
His hand waving is his personality in dealing with nonsensical criticism about not bending to current social norms to represent a historical era of a nation he is from. Nowhere did he say fuck POC. There are POC in there already. Apparently POC must mean one color that needs to be represented. It's just insane. The fact this thread has gone to 12 pages is just utterly gross.

If somebody shows me this guy being racist then my mind will change. But as it stands. This is a game I and many others have wanted for a long time.

He follows UN Watch.

Sean Hannity...

Trump...


Game that satires Black Lives Matter.

Brietbart tech (the fuck?)

Greg Gutfield

James Woods

Hmm.



Okay he may hold shitbag viewpoints.

I'm sorry to point you out specifically but it is crazy to me that someone can go from one side of the argument based on literally nothing, to the complete opposite after just... looking at things a bit closer. I wonder how many other people in this thread and this forum do the same thing, at least you've been public about your change of heart.
 

Kitsunelaine

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I think we should take this statement at its word here, there is no underlying racism behind this choice or anything malicious behind it. Taking Vavra's personal politics out of the equation (which I think has been over-emphasized in influencing the game's development), they did FOUR YEARS of research on the history, hired research historian Joanna Nowak to consult on the project, and the result is there are no black people represented in this slice of medieval Bohemia.

He is the lead developer. We can't exactly be accused of overemphasizing his influence on the project without good reason.

I'm sorry to point you out specifically but it is crazy to me that someone can go from one side of the argument based on literally nothing, to the complete opposite after just... looking at things a bit closer. I wonder how many other people in this thread and this forum do the same thing, at least you've been public about your change of heart.

lol UN Watch, really? That's what convinced you?

Guys, he changed his mind when confronted with reason and evidence. If we berate people for having the ability to change their mind, all we do is encourate people to dig their heels in to avoid being reacted to in this way.
 

FrequentFlyer

Banned
Dec 3, 2017
1,273
Do you have anything to back up this claim aside from the developers' heavily biased assertions? From what I can tell it's heavily disputed.

Also as for proof of this dude's assholery, in part at least, all you have to do is go back one page. https://www.resetera.com/threads/se...m-come-deliverance.17250/page-12#post-4245534 https://www.resetera.com/threads/se...m-come-deliverance.17250/page-12#post-4245821 (Click the post linked within that last link, it's worth it.)
Yes, so heavily disputed that after 12 pages still nobody was able to post any evidence/sources aside from the nonsensical debunked medievalpoc blogpost
 

RPGamer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,435
Reality isn't defined by "seems', and "seems" isn't an excuse to argue with hostility to people who hold a differing view on the matter.

Are you going to address the posts that gave you the proof you asked for of this guy's political leanings or are you going to ignore them?



This post would all be well and good if you weren't trying to pretend that that's all the evidence there was that this guy's a huge piece of shit.

I'm not trying to pretend anything, i'm telling parts people left out, or were wrong about, i'm fully aware that he probably is more on the right spectrum and that he probably has some dumb viewpoints, but the points i mentioned were a big part of the accusations as media said the game is propaganda itself.... and for that there is no proof. The rest doesn't make him a criminal, harrasser or fully flegded Nazi. If it's enough for people to boykott things it's ok, their decision.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,968
He is the lead developer. We can't exactly be accused of overemphasizing his influence on the project without good reason.





Guys, he changed his mind when confronted with reason and evidence. If we berate people for having the ability to change their mind, all we do is encourate people to dig their heels in to avoid being reacted to in this way.
My intent wasn't to berate, apologies if it came across that way.
 

kliklik

Member
Oct 26, 2017
330
I wonder how many other people in this thread and this forum do the same thing, at least you've been public about your change of heart.
Not many, considering most others have said they're already aware of and disagree with his views, but as long as those views aren't forced on them in the game, they're fine with playing it. It's not like playing a game by a dev means you want to have drinks with them and chum it up.

Guys, he changed his mind when confronted with reason and evidence. If we berate people for having the ability to change their mind, all we do is encourate people to dig their heels in to avoid being reacted to in this way.
UN Watch is a respectable NGO, whether you agree with their general political stance or not. Compared to fucking GG support and calling Sarkeesian a misandrist? I mean... what the... lol. No sorry I'm not going to fail to call out the absurdity of that.
 

Kitsunelaine

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Oct 25, 2017
6,382
My intent wasn't to berate, apologies if it came across that way.

I guess I suppose I prefer a tone of celebration and encouragement for reasonability in an argument than a tone of... whatever that was, I can't be bothered to think right now. Stupid heat. x_x;

There was probably a better way of phrasing it that more accurately represented the content of your posts but for the life of me I can't think of it right now. I think that's a sign I have to abandon thread for a while, lol.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,372
Gentrified Brooklyn
Nope! I will fully admit that I enjoy pieces of entertainment made by problematic creators. But as I get older and assholes like that impact more in my everyday life its harder to justify supporting that world view (cause id find it hard to tell myself the cash i would spend eventually wouldn't end i some shitty bigoted organizations fund even if its just a small personal donation) on top of it would bother me while im playing and make it hard to suspend the disbelief
 

RPGamer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,435
I guess I suppose I prefer a tone of celebration and encouragement for reasonability in an argument than a tone of... whatever that was, I can't be bothered to think right now. Stupid heat. x_x;

There was probably a better way of phrasing it that more accurately represented the content of your posts but for the life of me I can't think of it right now. I think that's a sign I have to abandon thread for a while, lol.

To be honest i thought he (FuckingEquality) was using sarcasm for a moment.
 

kliklik

Member
Oct 26, 2017
330
Frankly I'd be a little concerned if I thought the thing that convinced a person to my side was their opposition to an NGO dedicated to opposing human rights abuse and freeing political dissidents and activists but ok you do you.
 

mnemonicj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,683
Honduras
I love coming to this website to read about developers sharing their thoughts.
I now try to inform myself as best as I can about the entertainment I consume, and social media is great to let you know about the true colors of the people behind these products.
Looks like I'll be missing out on Kingdom Come.
 

Filament Star

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,817
Do you have anything to back up this claim aside from the developers' heavily biased assertions? From what I can tell it's heavily disputed.

Also as for proof of this dude's assholery, in part at least, all you have to do is go back one page. https://www.resetera.com/threads/se...m-come-deliverance.17250/page-12#post-4245534 https://www.resetera.com/threads/se...m-come-deliverance.17250/page-12#post-4245821 (Click the post linked within that last link, it's worth it.)

It seems like a lot of this is dev is passionate about making a historically accurate game about his country and makes it based on his research. People tell him his research is disputed. There's no compelling reason to believe the other research over his. He gets defensive because he's really passionate about his country and a bunch of people who aren't from there are telling him things about it that his own research doesn't agree with. He decides to make the game he wants to make. He is a racist and hates all POC now.

I really feel bad for the guy, he really doesn't seem like he deserves any of this.
 

Kitsunelaine

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Oct 25, 2017
6,382
So it's ok to ignore the years of combined effort of 100+ employees, because the company head has certain political views and speaks about them?

If, hypothetically, Hideo Kojima turned out to be a nazi, would you be still willing to support Death Stranding?

Answer honestly, now.
 

Filament Star

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,817
If, hypothetically, Hideo Kojima turned out to be a nazi, would you be still willing to support Death Stranding?

Answer honestly, now.

That depends what you mean by Nazi. If he made a game about his country that didn't meet the far left's standards of representation because he was trying to be historically accurate, than yes.

If he literally fought for the Germans in WW2 and time traveled to current day at the end of the war to make videogames under a new identity, then no.
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,436
People say they don't want to punish a whole team of devs who might not be assholes because one guy is an asshole.

I don't want to offend and marginalise entire races of people because a team of devs "might not be assholes too".

I will not be buying this game.
 

SHØGVN

Member
Oct 29, 2017
258
If, hypothetically, Hideo Kojima turned out to be a nazi, would you be still willing to support Death Stranding?

Answer honestly, now.

Hypothetically I would not because that is simply unacceptable for me. Having said that, Walt Disney was legit a Nazi sympathiser, and I still watch and enjoy films by the company that is his legacy, as do millions of others, since that fact has no bearing on the company's properties today.

I assume you are trying to equate Vavra to a Nazi by questioning my willingness to support his game in this way. But Vavra has publicly stated he has nothing but disdain for totalitarian regimes that invaded his country, oppressed its people and put his descendants in goddamn concentration camps. So I would suggest you consider the weight of that word when throwing it around to describe Vavra. To further put that notion to rest, here is the quote from the co-founder in the OP:

I would also like to comment on the person Daniel Vavra. Since this will be a very personal statement, I think it is appropriate to first say a few words about myself. My father, Jan Klima, spent his childhood in the Theresienstadt Concentration Camp, together with his parents and his brother Ivan Klima, who later became a well-known author. The rest of her family was killed in the gas chambers. Parts of my family (Viktor and Otto Synek) were executed as resistance fighters, after them today a place in Prague is named. I apologize if I'm boring with this background to my person, but I want to underline how offensive I think it is for me to be accused of having worked and spent the last six years of my life with a man whom you have assumed a closeness to racist or neo-Nazi ideas.

People should be allowed to have right-wing views and not be accused of being a Nazi. On a personal level I stopped following Vavra on Twitter because his politics is a little too unsavory for me. But do they cross into hate speech, racism, sexism? Not from what I can tell, so I have no qualms about supporting his work.
 
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MrNelson

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,356
So it's ok to ignore the years of combined effort of 100+ employees, because the company head has certain political views and speaks about them?
Absolutely. Just like it's ok to not patronize Chick-fil-A because you don't agree with the founder donating to organizations that work against the LGBT community, or to not stay in any hotels owned by the president because you think he's a tremendous asshole.
 

MrNelson

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,356
People should be allowed to have right-wing views and not be accused of being a Nazi.
There is having right-wing beliefs, and then there is following literal Neo-Nazis on Twitter. You don't accidentally follow Cernovich, Southern, or Breitbart. He followed them for a reason.
 
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