I am pleased to be corrected in this, thank you.Um... Turkish and Cuman people are in the game. And apparently Jewish people will be too. So what's the complaint there?
I am pleased to be corrected in this, thank you.Um... Turkish and Cuman people are in the game. And apparently Jewish people will be too. So what's the complaint there?
So that was just a drive-by post of something intentionally provocative and you have no intention of providing an argument or justification for it, I see.
He endorses calling James Damore a hero and liked/retweeted content from MRA cult leader Stefan Molyneux, among other things.
These posts have more.
Edit:
See above, and there's no need for that tone. blakdeth is correct that these threads have had full of such evidence and you don't have to look very hard for it.
Have a quick scroll through the first page or two and you will find plenty of evidence as to why Vavra is a shitty person.
This then plays into issue #2 with regards to the importance of modern day concerns about representation in media. While I think the official statements by Warhorse about the racial/cultural diversity of the area have been mostly fine and their choice not to include some of these rather improbable groups would more or less be perfectly acceptable and reasonable based on the historical evidence, but that doesn't mean there isn't a good argument for why they should have still included them despite that lack of historical evidence. Studies have shown time and again the importance of inclusivity and diversity in our media for everyone. And base on the facts of issue #1 there's really very little downside for them in including PoC in the game. Such an inclusion would not be in any serious contradiction to the broader historical record and would be great way of exposing people to the idea of a more diverse Medieval Europe. Once again this is ultimately a work of fiction and since such PoC being in the region is not an impossibility, rather just improbable, there is very little preventing them from coming up with some justifications or other for having such people there. If you want to be a prick and call that shoehorning or tokenism or a quota good for you, but good writing can make anything work.
And if it was so important to them to maintain accuracy they could just add an entry to their big ol' compendium of history facts and details they're touting that say something to the effect of "While there is no historical evidence of Africans(or whoever) in this particular region of Bohemia the game is set in during this time, there was such interactions and exchanges elsewhere in Europe and could have also occurred here, we simply lack any historical documentation proving so." And then go on to detail what relevant documented and verified accounts there.
And lastly none of this is to say Warhorse HAS to do this, but that it would be good and beneficial if they did and that it would be good if other developers of games and any other kind of media at least considered and thought about this kind of stuff when creating something. Very few people are saying they have to include everyone in everything, just that they would like for them to consider it and include that possibility seriously and thoughtfully in their creation process as more often than not there ends up being few reasons or real roadblocks for not having a more diverse cast. Your approach to diversity should not be that you need some external thing to justify it or to only consider it due to circumstances of your creation requiring it in some way. Instead of always asking "why should I do this" and instead as "why not."
I'm still looking for examples of Vavra being "openly sexist" specifically. These examples shown are anti-antifa, anti-socialism, anti-Sarkeesian, pro-Israel, and mostly not even related to women while being written by other people. I want to know what exactly is being alleged as an example of Vavra being "openly sexist".
Do you not know who James Damore is?I'm still looking for examples of Vavra being "openly sexist" specifically. These examples shown are anti-antifa, anti-socialism, anti-Sarkeesian, pro-Israel, and mostly not even related to women while being written by other people. I want to know what exactly is being alleged as an example of Vavra being "openly sexist".
It's like you completely ignored the first quote in your post in every way possible. It doesn't seem like you even read it.I'm still looking for examples of Vavra being "openly sexist" specifically. These examples shown are anti-antifa, anti-socialism, anti-Sarkeesian, pro-Israel, and mostly not even related to women while being written by other people. I want to know what exactly is being alleged as an example of Vavra being "openly sexist".
No, I'm looking for something he said or did that indicates he hold sexist views.Oh right, you're doing the "I won't admit he's a misogynist until I see him yelling for all women to get back in the kitchen where they belong" shtick?
You know what, carry on.
Damore is a sexist idiot. People who take up his defense might not be doing so because they agree with what he said though, and might just be opposed what they perceive as him being fired over his political views. I don't really know what Vavra has said about him, but I do know that Vavra has said he regrets his "thoughtless" statements, that he wouldn't have said them if he had thought more carefully about things.
...and there we have it.This is incredibly dumb line of reasoning. Yes, you have to compromise on language accuracy so people can play the game. No, you shouldn't compromise on accuracy when you are making game about your own country's history and want to portray its demographics accurately, just to satisfy internet foreigners obsessed with identity politics.
I haven't forgotten a thing. Diversity isn't a zero sum game. Including other minorities in their game wouldn't detract from the experience or presentation of Slavic culture and history and simply because they're making a game about an underrepresented group doesn't give them a free pass to criticisms and discussion about the larger topic of diversity. Which once again all comes back to Vavra and his actions that are why this fact is getting lost in the debate. This would be dramatically different discussion if not for him.You're advocating so fiercely for more diversity in video games that you seem to forget this is a game made by Slavic people about Slavic people, a group which has suffered a lot through history, is barely represented in video games themselves and is still subject to extreme forms of discrimination today. Yet people don't seem to care about that. Instead of celebrating the fact that Kingdom Come: Deliverance is a major boon for diversity in video games, people are being openly dismissive about it. I don't understand this attitude...at all. I'm not talking about people criticizing Vavra but people refusing to concede that Kingdom Come: Deliverance is a diverse game in and of itself and adds diversity to the Western and Japanese dominated video game market.
To address your other point: I think there are plenty of reasons that explain why Warhorse Studios did not add e.g. black people in the game.
- From a historical point of view it is very unlikely they lived in a 8 km² rural area in 15th century Bohemia. So this decision would not score very high points on the historical accuracy scale.
- A black person would stand out a lot in such a place. You cannot simply portray them as the Jones family living next door, you need to address how people interacted with them. I can very well imagine that Warhorse Studios had no interest in exploring black-white race relations in 15th century rural Bohemia as there would be no documentation about it and because the focus of their game is so narrow. There is already plenty of racial and religious conflict present in the region, with Magyar, Turkic, German and Czech people present and the upcoming proto-Protestant Hussite religion about to clash with Catholicism.
- Warhorse mentioned that they found a (vague) reference about a black person present at the court in Prague, a few decennia after the events of the game. His role was that of a slave. I doubt that would have gone over well here.
I haven't forgotten a thing. Diversity isn't a zero sum game. Including other minorities in their game wouldn't detract from the experience or presentation of Slavic culture and history and simply because they're making a game about an underrepresented group doesn't give them a free pass to criticisms and discussion about the larger topic off diversity. Which once again all comes back to Vavra and his actions that are why this fact is getting lost in the debate.
I did read it, which is why I was citing exact examples from the links. The only retweeted content of Molyneux's that I've seen posted here had to do with gun control. Molyneux might very well be sexist and racist, I'm not going to waste my time listening to his tripe to find out, but someone isn't guilty of sexism by association when they retweet his videos on gun control and follow him, for example. I see that same pattern with other notorious figures like Posobiec (rt re:Jerusalem), Watson (anti-antifa, gun control), Kirk (anti-socialism), McInnes (anti-PC), DTJ (anti-socialism), Eric Trump (media bias), etc. Again, I'm sure a lot of these people are terrible, most hold sexist views, but the examples don't show him retweeting sexist things, only retweeting people who can be described as sexist promoting a separate issue.It's like you completely ignored the first quote in your post in every way possible. It doesn't seem like you even read it.
Beleive me, people living around this part of the world the inclusion of czech, german and hungarian people is the 'larger topic of diversity'. Of course the us movies/tv shows/games very popular here but regardless of that, we are prety much detached from the whole race topic over there. There are 4 countries in a 70 km radius where I live, people spoke 4 completely different languages and passionetly hate each other. For you they might be just 'white dudes', but there is a world of difference between them. This is the diversity people see every day here, not the colour of the skin.I haven't forgotten a thing. Diversity isn't a zero sum game. Including other minorities in their game wouldn't detract from the experience or presentation of Slavic culture and history and simply because they're making a game about an underrepresented group doesn't give them a free pass to criticisms and discussion about the larger topic of diversity. Which once again all comes back to Vavra and his actions that are why this fact is getting lost in the debate. This would be dramatically different discussion if not for him.
I think it is really testament to the echochamberism to seriously believe this will impact the sales in any relevant way whatsoever.Vávra really has gone out of his way to fuck with the team's success.
I agree that is super important and fully falls under the umbrella of the larger topic of diversity. This isn't a debate about one form of diversity being more important than another, that because everyone is "white" it matters less. But it has largely taken that shape due to Vavra's statements and actions which has squarely focused all the attention on the inclusion of Africans. Eastern Europeans in general fall victim to being marginalized and portrayed negatively in media, if at all. Their cultural and ethnic differences, diversity, contributions and history are routinely mis-characterized, left out and forgotten in favor of the big Western European nations or Russia. So it is great that a native Czech developer is able to make a game portraying that for people to experience and see done right.Beleive me, people living around this part of the world the inclusion of czech, german and hungarian people is the 'larger topic of diversity'. Of course the us movies/tv shows/games very popular here but regardless of that, we are prety much detached from the whole race topic over there. There are 4 countries in a 70 km radius where I live, people spoke 4 completely different languages and passionetly hate each other. For you they might be just 'white dudes', but there is a world of difference between them. This is the diversity people see every day here, not the colour of the skin.
I'm not tring to downplay the racial diversity, just merely showing we have very different thoughts on the topic.
That is the only part that matters to me really. On its face, it doesn't seem to. If its historically accurate, its historically accurate...I don't know we can say whether he wanted to be historically accurate just so he can exclude people. Thats a little silly.Vávra really has gone out of his way to fuck with the team's success. Then again, who knows what the other developer's agree/disagree with him on. I fully understand dissociating art from creator, but if his shitty opinions start to bleed into the game's writing/tone - I don't know if I could tolerate it. We've already got the "it's historically accurate" rationale to conveniently cover exclusion.
That is the only part that matters to me really. On its face, it doesn't seem to. If its historically accurate, its historically accurate...I don't know we can say whether he wanted to be historically accurate just so he can exclude people. Thats a little silly.
To me, its as simple as whether Warhorse made a game I want to buy. They did. I will buy it. Sure, there could be some set of facts out there that would change this analysis, but as I know them now, the analysis is as simple as that.
This is a good quote. It is different in that part of the world. It requires a different analysis and a different lens when viewing these types of things (ethnicity, race, etc). Americans just see "white people" but its more complicated than that.Beleive me, people living around this part of the world the inclusion of czech, german and hungarian people is the 'larger topic of diversity'. Of course the us movies/tv shows/games very popular here but regardless of that, we are prety much detached from the whole race topic over there. There are 4 countries in a 70 km radius where I live, people spoke 4 completely different languages and passionetly hate each other. For you they might be just 'white dudes', but there is a world of difference between them. This is the diversity people see every day here, not the colour of the skin.
I'm not tring to downplay the racial diversity, just merely showing we have very different thoughts on the topic.
How is he a Nazi? do you have any evidence for this?
Czech people suffered horrendously under the Nazi's (and the then the communists). You should not wildly throw such outrageous accusations.
Would you prefer the term, "Neo-nazi"? Or perhaps "Alt right"? All these terms are interchangable to me. Since "Alt right" doesn't carry the baggage of "Nazi" like it needs to, I prefer the tact of calling a shoe a shoe.
Can you show me any evidence that he has said anything racist?
So when Dynasty Warriors 9 comes out and there are no representatives of anything but Chinese ... should we spam the developers with faux outrage then boycott if the developer defends against the faux outrage?
That was stupid. Without ulterior motive or hidden message. I listen to a variety of music styles, but I'm a big heavy metal fan at heart. To underline my passion for this music, I had decided to wear a T-shirt every day at gamescom 2017, which is another less well-known album. One of these shirts was printed with the artwork of the Burzum album Filosofem. This album is still regarded as a milestone in the development of Scandinavian Black Metal and is widely regarded as a classic of this genre. By wearing the said T-shirt I wanted to emphasize nothing more than the artistic meaning of the album.
I tried that at the bottom of the previous page with sexism and it worked out just about as well for me as it is for you lol.Can you show me any evidence that he has said anything racist?
He said that in response to criticism over the lack of PoC, which came first. See Enduin's post above.There were PoC in China during the Three Kingdoms Period. A lack of representation in DW9 does require the same amount of thoughtful discussion regarding the portrayal of PoC in video games. Though the difference is the developer hasn't openly stated that "due to 'historical accuracy' there are no PoC in Ancient China."
I don't keep a log of everyone who has been Wrong On The Internet in order to win forum arguments.
So it's ok to go round accusing people of being nazis without any evidence?
I think it's this:I'm assuming this refers to a different t-shirt than the one below? I can't find info on any other than this:
I tried that at the bottom of the previous page with sexism and it worked out just about as well for me as it is for you lol.
He said that in response to criticism over the lack of PoC, which came first. See Enduin's post above.
The man follows Breitbart and fucking Mike Cernovich.So it's ok to go round accusing people of being nazis without any evidence?
If the game is not pushing some racist/mysoginist or sexist themes i don't care about what Vàvra thinks, this is a 100+ people game between developers, PR, publisher and distribution, and i don't want to "boycott" this game only because Vàrva has different views from me or all the people working on this game.
I just want to play a medieval RPG.
Supporting GG is a contribution to sexism in the industry.
As a recognizable, well regarded developer with a large fanbase, you lend credibility to the movement by endorsing it.
Turning a blind eye to the mobilization of gendered harassment, attacks and attempts at forcing said groups out of the industry isn't really excusable.
I agree with you that the movement was disingenuous and started right off the bat with sexist attitudes, prioritised attacking women even over provably false accusations, and had a chilling effect on women in the industry. They yelled at the socjus side to not use women as shields while literally using a drawing of a girl to espouse their views for them as an effective shield. I agree with you that it's even more disappointing and problematic for a dev to support such a movement because as you said, it lends credibility and can help trick others into believing there is any merit in their claims that they just stood for journalistic ethics and in opposition to censorship. I'm not disputing that his involvement with the movement was extremely poor judgment and display of flagrant ignorance. I also think Sarkeesian's work was balanced, fair, and if anything a bit too tame and obvious. People who think she's attempting to censor anyone or that she's misandrist are so laughably uninformed that I have to conclude they never watched her videos and only watched reaction-videos.
But that alone still doesn't count as evidence of being "openly sexist". Yes, you can argue it contributes to sexism in the industry by lending credibility to the movement, but that's not quite the same thing as directly being openly sexist oneself. Again, I don't want to attach a label like that to someone merely through association.
So do you not think people should vote with their wallets? Even going beyond this game, do you think people who choose to not buy certain games because they don't like practices such as loot boxes or microtransactions are just doing it to stroke their own ego?Not buying this game isn't going to fix any of the world's problems and only serves to stoke the egos of people who concern themselves too much.
I don't care about the politics. Is the game good? Does it seem like something I would have fun with?
Not buying this game isn't going to fix any of the world's problems and only serves to stoke the egos of people who concern themselves too much about judging what other people think. Buy the game don't buy the game but it doesn't make you more virtuous than people who choose to buy it or make them less supportive of good causes.
So when Dynasty Warriors 9 comes out and there are no representatives of anything but Chinese ... should we spam the developers with faux outrage then boycott if the developer defends against the faux outrage?
just to satisfy internet foreigners obsessed with identity politics.
I think it is really testament to the echochamberism to seriously believe this will impact the sales in any relevant way whatsoever.
Would you prefer the term, "Neo-nazi"? Or perhaps "Alt right"? All these terms are interchangable to me. Since "Alt right" doesn't carry the baggage of "Nazi" like it needs to, I prefer the tact of calling a shoe a shoe.
Not buying this game isn't going to fix any of the world's problems and only serves to stoke the egos of people who concern themselves too much about judging what other people think. Buy the game don't buy the game but it doesn't make you more virtuous than people who choose to buy it or make them less supportive of good causes.
So do you not think people should vote with their wallets? Even going beyond this game, do you think people who choose to not buy certain games because they don't like practices such as loot boxes or microtransactions are just doing it to stroke their own ego?
Why are people fixated on the lack of PoC in this game, even though it has been confirmed that there will be other historically accurate ethnicities (Turkish, Cuman)?
Why has the same criticism never been levied against Japanese games/animation where all the characters are white? I don't remember people losing their shit over FFXV, Nier Automata or Mario Odyssey not being diverse enough.
People aren't fixated on it. It was one issue brought up that the director responded to by going full Gamergator and alt-right instead of sensibly addressing it. Now the defenders of this asshole use the 'PoC in Medieval Bohemia' issue as their target because it's much easier than defending the actual guy and his attitudes which led to this entire thing.Why are people fixated on the lack of PoC in this game, even though it has been confirmed that there will be other historically accurate ethnicities (Turkish, Cuman)?
Why has the same criticism never been levied against Japanese games/animation where all the characters are white? I don't remember people losing their shit over FFXV, Nier Automata or Mario Odyssey not being diverse enough.