"Gaming Culture" is toxic - Gamers AREN'T Good

HellforLeather · Feb 14, 2018

JEFFREY GRUBB said:
You don't have to do anything. Just don't dismiss fair criticisms.

"It was pretty well documented that at least a portion of the shitty harassing, death threats, etc bascially all the bad shit attributed to GG was people trolling who didnt give a shit either way."

OK... so, what? We should just forget about it? You're free to do that, but I'm not gonna blame anyone who wants to investigate why gaming was such a potent breeding ground for that kind of reactionary behavior.

What Im saying is online movements with no head or central figure can be claimed by anybody and everybody. Also, I would contend that the internet is a potent breeding ground for that shit, not necessarily gamers or gaming culture (but guess who probably spend more time online?) Correlation does not equal causation though, I think thats the source of a big amount of the push back when people make blanket statements about "gamers" or "gaming culture". Its the burden of the accuser to make the case that there is something inherently wrong with "gamers" that manifests in this sort of internet diarrhea. Most of the people who try to make this claim, from what Ive personally seen, just state it like its a fact and the push back seems to usually be a disagreement of the basic premise. Its like when the news attempted to link Doom to the Columbine shooters. They passively or sometimes actively attempted to make the causational link between them playing a violent video game and their horrific acts in the real world but without any qualification other than "They liked a shooting game, then went and shot people".

Xaszatm · Feb 14, 2018

okayfrog said:
This is all very true.

People want to talk with others on the internet. If they get banned from one place for their opinions, they'll hop somewhere where their opinions are accepted, which can then lead to them developing even more toxic opinions.

It's a tricky situation.

Squidi said:
I already have been. Twice. Once, I was banned for "sexism argumentation" for quoting Amy Henning and saying that my experience in the game industry suggested that the game industry is not as sexist as is being reported, and once for racism for saying that someone had the legal right to use the "n-word".

And if you don't believe me:

I am a member of GamerGate. I am willing to have a discussion about GamerGate, the gaming community, game journalism, white supremacy, harassment, or anything else. I feel like GamerGate has been incorrectly maligned and is the victim of a smear campaign by the very group of journalists it was originally created as a response to. There are a lot of misconceptions that I feel like I could clear up in a discussion. I will respectfully listen and respond, though I will not always agree or see eye to eye on particular subjects. And where we agree, it's possible that I may disagree on the extent to which we agree. But I will guarantee a civil discussion, at least on my end, in which no rules will be broken and all participants are treated with dignity and respect.

Yeah...I don't know if I'd bother.

Poodlestrike · Feb 14, 2018

Okay, look. Everybody saying "it's not just gamers!", I want you to try something for me.

Finish this thought: "I'm a gamer, and while gaming has its problems, so does every other fandom. Therefore, I should..." What's the next step? Do you do anything to make it better?

You've admitted that there are problems. Does the existence of problems in other fandoms in any way effect the end of that sentence? If not, why're you bringing it up?

Gnorman · Feb 14, 2018

NoblesseOblige said:
I move that "it's only some gamer" dismissives be punishable. We are a gaming enthusiast board and as such we have a responsibility to making our hobby welcoming to all. Posting not all gamer bullshit is denying that obligation and only allowing the bad parts to flourish further. If people don't want responsibility for making a hobby better then they shouldn't be engaging in it as an enthusiast.

Sorry but i don't have any responsibility or obligation for other people's behaviour just because we both happen to play video games. That's ridiculous .

InsrtCoins · Feb 14, 2018

When I started seeing this hashtag being used, it raised some flags as being a disingenuous, bad-faith argument just trying to rile people up. Of course no one is going to argue that all gamers are bad (or good, for that matter). It feels like the people who started this are putting an statement out there that they know will generate controversy and radicalize idiots. It's a strawman argument with the sole purpose of reinforcing gamers' persecution complexes rather than working together to take responsibility and deal with the bad aspects of our culture.

Redcrayon · Feb 14, 2018

Squidi said:
I am a member of GamerGate. I am willing to have a discussion about GamerGate, the gaming community, game journalism, white supremacy, harassment, or anything else. I feel like GamerGate has been incorrectly maligned and is the victim of a smear campaign by the very group of journalists it was originally created as a response to. There are a lot of misconceptions that I feel like I could clear up in a discussion.

Spoken as if a huge amount of us didn't watch it unfold, with all its awful tactics and justifications and purposefully-spread misinformation in an attempt to hide its objectives, in real time. I understand why some might wish to rebrand it a few years later for a younger audience that didn't see it happen due to the blink-and-you-miss it nature of social media and the ease with which disgusting behaviour can become hidden. Some of us have memories longer than the last outrage.

NoblesseOblige · Feb 14, 2018

Gnorman said:
Sorry but i don't have any responsibility or obligation for other people's behaviour just because we both happen to play video games. That's ridiculous .

Then maybe you shouldn't participate in an enthusiast space if you clearly have no interest in making it more accepting.

guek · Feb 14, 2018

Poodlestrike said:
Okay, look. Everybody saying "it's not just gamers!", I want you to try something for me.

Finish this thought: "I'm a gamer, and while gaming has its problems, so does every other fandom. Therefore, I should..." What's the next step? Do you do anything to make it better?

You've admitted that there are problems. Does the existence of problems in other fandoms in any way effect the end of that sentence? If not, why're you bringing it up?

Professor Beef · Feb 14, 2018

Nairume said:
Is it really applicable? The past several years has made it perfectly clearly that people are more than happy being fuckwads without anonymity hiding them.

Even the guy who drew this has no issues occasionally being a fuckwad despite being a public figure.

They've gone on record saying that it's no longer accurate since nobody cares about anonymity anymore.

SG-17 said:
That sounds like a very healthy response.

thanks i think so too

rras1994 · Feb 14, 2018

Poodlestrike said:
Okay, look. Everybody saying "it's not just gamers!", I want you to try something for me.

Finish this thought: "I'm a gamer, and while gaming has its problems, so does every other fandom. Therefore, I should..." What's the next step? Do you do anything to make it better?

You've admitted that there are problems. Does the existence of problems in other fandoms in any way effect the end of that sentence? If not, why're you bringing it up?

YES! This is a gaming forum. If it's not appropriate to bring up here problems in gaming, where exactly is?

okayfrog · Feb 14, 2018

Xaszatm said:
Yeah...I don't know if I'd bother.

A real shame. Now that he's banned, as he said, he's likely to go back to his holes and foment more hate.

If you're reading this, Squidi: I was there at the beginning of GG. It started out as a harassment campaign and the whole "ethics in games journalism" thing was a smokescreen. Talk about how you want better games journalism all you want, but don't be part of a group made because a guy was pissed off at his ex.

PlumCantaloupe · Feb 14, 2018

Poodlestrike said:
Okay, look. Everybody saying "it's not just gamers!", I want you to try something for me.

Finish this thought: "I'm a gamer, and while gaming has its problems, so does every other fandom. Therefore, I should..." What's the next step? Do you do anything to make it better?

You've admitted that there are problems. Does the existence of problems in other fandoms in any way effect the end of that sentence? If not, why're you bringing it up?

Great way to think about it. This is an opportunity not to be defensive but rather constructive. What will we all do indeed ... It could be as simple as calling out the problem when you see it.

Poodlestrike · Feb 14, 2018

okayfrog said:
A real shame. Now that he's banned, as he said, he's likely to go back to his holes and foment more hate.

If you're reading this, Squidi: I was there at the beginning of GG. It started out as a harassment campaign and the whole "ethics in games journalism" thing was a smokescreen. Talk about how you want better games journalism all you want, but don't be part of a group made because a guy was pissed off at his ex.

He was already going to do that. Now we don't have to put up with his nonsense in this particular venue.

Ninjimbo · Feb 14, 2018

Personally I have a problem with the anti-intellectual sentiments that pervades most of these communities. But then I realize I'm playing something like Tales of Berseria in my off-time and I realize I'm no better than those people.

So..is gaming culture toxic? I think it is in large doses. You're not going to grow as a person if all you're doing is playing the same thing all the time and socializing with the same people. Your perspective is going to narrow and you're going to start normalizing behavior that probably shouldn't be normalized. That leads to exclusion and that's what mostly happens in all these communities.

To fix it, these toxic people have to look inward and realize the faults of their behavior. Maybe then the steps towards change can begin. However I don't know how you get them to do that.

4859 · Feb 14, 2018

JEFFREY GRUBB said:
Oh, no! Whataboutism! For real, though -- I spent hours talking about it with you despite you arguing in bad faith the entire time.

No, this is not whataboutism this shit is directly related, this is where it comes from, where it is bred, and where it is cultivated as a desired response in consumers because consumers with this behavior, are the most monetisable, and the least likely to balk or back lash, as they constantly cape and attack for their beloved corporations.

The behavior patterns that arise in those threads, are the same shit that gamergate, alt right, and now the gop do constantly. Its what was done in Zoey threads, in anita threads, and in the jim sterling threads, the circular arguments, the faux obtuseness, ignoring facts, fake news, the refusal to actually adress anything, most responses being one offs with nothing to do with anything being discussed at hand, meant soley to muddy the waters, such as:

rras1994 said:
You mean the time you got banned for cus you just ended up insulting a lot of people? Do you really want to go there again?

You spent hours avoiding talking about anything. And now we have more up to date information, once again, completely reinforcing what we already knew.
I had charts and graphs from the company themselves, and you ignored ALL of it, but what you decided to cherry pick, and even thats useless in the face of the new information. Which by the way, is eclipsing 30% profitability and if it continues anywhere near the current rate will be over 40% next year. And yeah, thats straight EBIT profit this time, labeled for convenience (by the way, according to the new charts, they were roughly twice as profitable as you tried to construe with your cherry picking for the 2015 year, at over 20%) no having to work off gross profit margins. So tell me again how its perfectly reasonable for publishers to blame their audience for making lootboxes necessary because without them they cant keep their heads above water.

Tell me again how wrong I was when I said they were lying and gaslighting?

Tell me why you actively refused facts and screamed fake news at me.

That shit is exactly where this comes from. Corporate worship brings this shit out of the woodworks, and you were all up in it.

stufte · Feb 14, 2018

Professor Beef said:
if someone called me a gamer to my face, i'd probably slap their shit

i'm just a guy that likes video games, end of story

So if I called you a gamer you'd assault me? Maybe gamers ARE the problem...

Professor Beef · Feb 14, 2018

stufte said:
So if I called you a gamer you'd assault me? Maybe gamers ARE the problem...

really makes you think

Bán · Feb 14, 2018

Poodlestrike said:
Okay, look. Everybody saying "it's not just gamers!", I want you to try something for me.

Finish this thought: "I'm a gamer, and while gaming has its problems, so does every other fandom. Therefore, I should..." What's the next step? Do you do anything to make it better?

You've admitted that there are problems. Does the existence of problems in other fandoms in any way effect the end of that sentence? If not, why're you bringing it up?

I don't do anything to make it better because I'm not sure exactly what the problem is nor how I have any power to fix said problem.

The closest answer I can imagine to finish that statement would be 'protest for better moderation of social media'. Which is something that applies to all internet discourse.

ultra bawl · Feb 14, 2018

Poodlestrike said:
He was already going to do that. Now we don't have to put up with his nonsense in this particular venue.

Yeah, exactly. Don't shift the blame for any hate he foments to people who didn't tolerate that hate when it was gestational. When you go to bed at night you lay there and you take responsibility for yourself, 'cause nobody's gonna take responsibility for you.

Ferrs · Feb 14, 2018

Poodlestrike said:
Okay, look. Everybody saying "it's not just gamers!", I want you to try something for me.

Finish this thought: "I'm a gamer, and while gaming has its problems, so does every other fandom. Therefore, I should..." What's the next step? Do you do anything to make it better?

You've admitted that there are problems. Does the existence of problems in other fandoms in any way effect the end of that sentence? If not, why're you bringing it up?

Because they don't care. They actually don't care about the problems in gaming culture, so they just shove it with the "it's a human problem" pile so they don't have to put up with anything.

okayfrog said:
A real shame. Now that he's banned, as he said, he's likely to go back to his holes and foment more hate.

Like he wasn't doing it anyways, people can be in different forums. And there is a point when it's not our bussiness to keep hateful people in our platform just because "they may go to other hateful places". These people have been given plenty of oportunities, talk, warnings, short bans.. and never change.

JeffGubb · Feb 14, 2018

stufte said:
So if I called you a gamer you'd assault me? Maybe gamers ARE the problem...

The effects of legal weed on display.

Gnorman · Feb 14, 2018

NoblesseOblige said:
Then maybe you shouldn't participate in an enthusiast space if you clearly have no interest in making it better.

I'm not going to feel responsible for other people's actions and I'm certainly not going to feel like they represent me or speak for me just because of a shared interest.

stufte · Feb 14, 2018

JEFFREY GRUBB said:
The effects of legal weed on display.

Oh don't get me started on weed culture.

maximumzero · Feb 14, 2018

SG-17 said:
There is a much higher barrier of entry for dedicated gaming than music, movies, and books. If you are playing on a Switch that's $300 minimum plus the price of each game which is an average of $60.

But nobody is forcing you to do that. Someone could just as easily pick up a used Xbox 360 for less than $50 and pick up used games for dollars a piece.

Puck Beaverton · Feb 14, 2018

Surprised we still have people in 2018 saying they're members of GG.

julia crawford · Feb 14, 2018

Calibro said:
Why though? What I'm saying is you have to deal with this everywhere, in every aspect of your life, not just gaming.

Posts like this only kill discussion. This kind of attitude has absolute zero benefit to the conversation. And considering our track record of acknowledging antagonistic and antisocial behaviors in and around videogames, this is frankly a repulsive argument to make, and it strains my belief to think of it as anything but bad faith.

okayfrog · Feb 14, 2018

Poodlestrike said:
He was already going to do that. Now we don't have to put up with his nonsense in this particular venue.

Speaking from experience, I'm not sure how true that is. As someone who was permabanned from the previous board multiple times, it's been nice being able to post on here. My usage of more toxic websites was going down prior to posting here, but since posting here I've outright blocked several of those sites and stopped following the more toxic people on Twitter.

I believe that folks like him can change, but I also believe that it's both incredibly difficult and nobody else's responsibility, which, like I said, makes it a tricky situation.

takriel · Feb 14, 2018

Anyone who feels the need to exclaim that "gamers are good" probably has something to hide on their own.

KonradLaw · Feb 14, 2018

I think gamer culture is great. Of course there are problems and they need to be fought, but as a whole I don't see the toxicity that would be inherent to gamers. Every large community has toxic members, acting like gaming is somehow unique is bizzare

JeffGubb · Feb 14, 2018

stufte said:
Oh don't get me started on weed culture.

All I'm saying is that I hate going to fast-food restaurants in Denver because people who clearly could not handle their shit when it was illegal feel like they can work high now. I don't know if my Wendy's has ever made my order right.

4859 · Feb 14, 2018

Puck Beaverton said:
Surprised we still have people in 2018 saying they're members of GG.

GG is thick as hell on gaming side here.

They might be smart enough to not go into the obvious shit, but the patterns in behavior, and their particular argumentative style is all there. Just look at any thread that dares point out there might be a problem with the gaming industry.

Straight GG/alt right argument styles as far as the eye can see.

ThankDougie · Feb 14, 2018

Bán said:
I don't do anything to make it better because I'm not sure exactly what the problem is nor how I have any power to fix said problem.

The closest answer I can imagine to finish that statement would be 'protest for better moderation of social media'. Which is something that applies to all internet discourse.

Right, but people exist within communities on the Internet, don't they? Isn't that exactly what this board is supposed to be? A community of people organized around a shared interest? Even voicing your distaste and dissatisfaction with the toxic elements of the gaming world has a positive effect. You can make a difference by being visible and confirming in public what you believe to be true about the toxic elements of something you enjoy. That's powerful!

Poodlestrike · Feb 14, 2018

Bán said:
I don't do anything to make it better because I'm not sure exactly what the problem is nor how I have any power to fix said problem.

The closest answer I can imagine to finish that statement would be 'protest for better moderation of social media'. Which is something that applies to all internet discourse.

Okay, so you don't know how to make things better because you say you don't understand the problem. Maybe you could ask? There's lots of people out there with insights into what it's like to be harassed, there's pieces talking about who gamergate is and how people like them operate.

You also say you see that better moderation is called for - so there's something right there. Ask for it, and if you don't get it, take it upon yourself to call out bullshit anyway. It's really that easy.

Ferrs said:
Because they don't care. They actually don't care about the problems in gaming culture, so they just shove it with the "it's a human problem" pile so they don't have to put up with anything.

I mean, I know that's why they're doing it, but it's a question meant to inspire self-reflection in the ones that aren't aware of it.

Professor Beef · Feb 14, 2018

JEFFREY GRUBB said:
The effects of legal weed on display.

hey, smokers are jokers, pal

InsrtCoins · Feb 14, 2018

stufte said:
So if I called you a gamer you'd assault me? Maybe gamers ARE the problem...

To be fair, he only said that he would slap their shit... which ... is an odd reaction, and quite unsanitary.

Kurdel · Feb 14, 2018

tyfon said:
I am shamelessly stealing this image and putting it on my work computer background...

Deleted member 135 · Feb 14, 2018

maximumzero said:
But nobody is forcing you to do that. Someone could just as easily pick up a used Xbox 360 for less than $50 and pick up used games for dollars a piece.

Is that what you are doing? Your post history suggests not, so hello fellow gamer.

Deleted member 12352 · Feb 14, 2018

It's hard to disagree tbh.

Casual · Feb 14, 2018

Some people are bad people. Lots of people play games. Statistically, some of those bad people will be the ones playing games.

It's not that complicated. There's nothing else that is unique to games that causes this.

AlexBasch · Feb 14, 2018

Doopliss said:
Unfortunately for me, I have had bad experiences with Destiny 2. I don't have people I know on there anymore so I had to find random people for raids(the prestige one in particular). The amount of elitism and looking after your own arbitrary shit(like their completions their stats and overall looking superior to others) is baffling. People are rarely patient and expect perfection. On numerous occasions I had to defend people because others wanted them to figure things out when funnily enough that said person didn't know either and others on the team were patient with them. We had a guy be all humble because he didn't know what to do, but when he eventually beat it with other people and he came back this dude was yelling at everyone.

I was gonna make a post yesterday but didn't felt like I was putting it together correctly but it's something along these lines.

I have no friends to play with in XBL/PS+/PC. None, I just had one gaming friend and he moved on with other stuff and never liked any of the co-op games we had in our library, so I decided to look up for groups to play Rainbow Six Siege or Destiny 2. Turns out it's a fucking cesspool of "+330, MUST KNOW WHAT TO DO, WE WON'T EXPLAIN ANYTHING" in Destiny 2 and "KYS FUCKING FAGGOT" if you dare ask for a group to take a newbie or everytime I get someone down in R6S.

Decided to be my own guy over there in online gaming, it's hard not to feel like the entire majority of gamers are angry kids who got bullied in school and will turn out to be abusers. It's really sad, but I don't want to be part of that "gaming scene" nonsense. Even wanted to learn how to edit videos so I could share some of my plays in R6S but I got harassed in my XboxDVR profile by people I never ever heard about. It's really hard to keep liking this hobby, people are fucking insane.

Acerac · Feb 14, 2018

Yasumi said:
This is true of pretty much any subject culture built on competition, sports and politics in particular. You're just more aware of gaming, being part of that bubble.

Naw, professional sports leagues penalize that shit from the peewee level up.

It's just that publishers don't want to lose sales by punishing assholes.

BossLackey · Feb 14, 2018

Gnorman said:
Sorry but i don't have any responsibility or obligation for other people's behaviour just because we both happen to play video games. That's ridiculous .

This is kind of how I feel. I keep seeing stuff like this pop up. What hell am I supposed to do about it?! Start a hashtag movement? I keep reading all this outrage, yet no one offers a solution. It's a bunch of noise on both sides. I'm so tired of this topic.

A lot of shitty people exist. Guess what, they've ALWAYS been here. The internet just gave them a voice. Unfortunately, there's a huge cross section of people who are assholes and people who play video games and people who use the internet.

There is NOTHING anyone here can do about it. You're talking about changing the very nature of millions of people. You will not change anyone's mind about how they treat others. "Gamer Culture" is the way it is, good or bad, because of the people who play video games. It's not the other way around, and it never was or ever will be.

maximumzero · Feb 14, 2018

Puck Beaverton said:
Surprised we still have people in 2018 saying they're members of GG.

To this day I don't know what "GamerGate" is.

Khamsinvera · Feb 14, 2018

I just wanna play my damn video games in peace - I really don't care what labels are stuck on me, as long as I get to enjoy my life the way I chose to.

stufte · Feb 14, 2018

InsrtCoins said:
To be fair, he only said that he would slap their shit... which ... is an odd reaction, and quite unsanitary.

Assaulting my poo is even worse, IMO.

Kinthey · Feb 14, 2018

SG-17 said:
If you play games on a dedicated platform and post on a dedicated video game forum (of all mediums for communication), you might just be a gamer.

This.
I'm not sure why people are even adverse to this idea. Doesn't gamer just mean "a person who regularly plays videogames "? No ones asking anyone to define their identity around it.

David · Feb 14, 2018

The best stance is the one I do: Not identify myself as a gamer but a as guy that also happen to play videogames.

That way you just stop caring about what people thinks about dudes that label themselves as gamers.

Acerac · Feb 14, 2018

maximumzero said:
To this day I don't know what "GamerGate" is.

A harassment campaign that was thinly disguised as trying to make gaming journalism great again.

Ferrs · Feb 14, 2018

maximumzero said:
To this day I don't know what "GamerGate" is.

it's shown in the banned message, a hate group. Composed of gamers.

Nairume · Feb 14, 2018

Kinthey said:
This.
I'm not sure why people are even adverse to this idea. Doesn't gamer just mean "a person who regularly plays videogames "? No ones asking anyone to define their identity around it.

Depending on where you are at, it means more than that.

Yes, gaming has entered the mainstream and, yes, "gamers" are becoming more sympathetic in popular culture. But there are still some unfortunate implications that come along with that tag, and I don't fault people for not wanting to associate with it as long as it can easily be applied to a lot of incredibly shitty people.

"Gaming Culture" is toxic - Gamers AREN'T Good

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