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Bob_Coffee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
682
I still think this is the best CW show idea that CBS has. And it would fit in with all the trashy teen soap stuff they they already air (including the DC shows. :p)

why not instead of the cw academy idea just get Scott bacula to reprise his role of Johnathon archer, And chronicle his founding of the Starfleet Criminal Investigative Service? or SCIS for short, they can even reveal that archer was a descendant of pryde from NCIS:New Orleans! it'll be hot late 22nrd early 23rd century space crime procedural action. old folks will get confused and think its NCIS, trek will get more of a following, it'll be a win win!
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,347
why not instead of the cw academy idea just get Scott bacula to reprise his role of Johnathon archer, And chronicle his founding of the Starfleet Criminal Investigative Service? or SCIS for short, they can even reveal that archer was a descendant of pryde from NCIS:New Orleans! it'll be hot late 22nrd early 23rd century space crime procedural action. old folks will get confused and think its NCIS, trek will get more of a following, it'll be a win win!
NCIS:NOLA will never get cancelled. :p
I think the only way that would work if they spunoff that show and someone from Starfleet traveled back in time to get Bakula because they forgot how to solve crime in the 23rd century. Then people can keep making jokes about how he looks like Archer.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,633
Hmm potential season 2 spoilers

Stamets and Culber had a lovely parting sequence after Culber died. What was that like for you and Wilson Cruz to play, and how hopeful are you we'll see more of Culber and Cruz in season two?

Inset_AnthonyCruzPremiere.jpg


I've known Wilson for so long. We were good friends before this, and I knew this had been such a thrilling experience for him, just on a personal level. So, that scene was pretty bittersweet to shoot. We didn't know at that point what's to come, though we've been told things and we still don't know exactly, but we know that you'll see these two characters interact again next season. I don't know if it'll be flashbacks, if it'll be flash-forwards. Whatever it is, there will be some presence of our relationship will continue, and I'm pleased about that.

http://www.startrek.com/article/exclusive-interview-anthony-rapp-on-discoverys-first-season
 

Stoney Mason

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,953
What is even on CBS access besides Discovery? I mean there is no way in hell I would ever subscribe to the service but for curiosity sake what is even on it? I mean when I think of CBS, all I think of is shitty procedurals and very broad comedies ala two and half men and big bang theory. I assume it has to have more than that right.
 

UltraMav

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,763
What is even on CBS access besides Discovery? I mean there is no way in hell I would ever subscribe to the service but for curiosity sake what is even on it? I mean when I think of CBS, all I think of is shitty procedurals and very broad comedies ala two and half men and big bang theory. I assume it has to have more than that right.

There are classic Twilight Zone episodes but honestly the only legitimate reason to subscribe is DSC. I don't think CBS can afford to wait until 2020.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,666
Now they have a cgi budget I would like to see the Tholians at some point and first contact with Cardassians.
I don't think it's ever said when they met.
 

Soap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,406
Considering that da9 is considered the very edge of federation space at that point, I don't think we'd see first contact between cardassians this early on in federation history. In my mind the cardassians made contact in picard's teens.
 

Breqesk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,234
I hope those CBS numbers mean we'll actually be getting more Trek, outside of just Discovery. It'd be great to see the franchise back to peak TNG popularity again.

I still genuinely like the idea of a Starfleet Academy spin-off show, though I'd want it to be... Relatively chill? Like, structured and paced kinda like a slice of life anime, rather than your standard teen drama.

I just think it'd be cool to get a look at the day to day life of some kids just growing up on 24th century (or, more likely, 23rd, since it's a DISCO spin-off) Earth--getting food with friends, hanging out after school, going on a day trip to Titan or whatever. It'd be an opportunity to develop a side of the Trek setting we've really seen very little of. Heck, I'd actually be all in favour of starting the show off with the characters still a year or two away from the Academy--their drive to eventually get there could comprise the show's main arc for the first season.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,666
The Academy can be pretty dangerous Picard lost his heart over a game of Dom-jot
 

Stoney Mason

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,953
They won't do it but I always liked the anthology trek idea. That's a way to do really interesting different situations without having to commit to years of doing something.

An academy trek "could" be interesting but I also have a feeling that's also the hardest idea to actually execute properly and I can easily see so many pitfalls that could turn it into something I would hate.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,081
Now they have a cgi budget I would like to see the Tholians at some point and first contact with Cardassians.
I don't think it's ever said when they met.

This makes me realise there's a bunch of first contact/federation integration for species featured in TNG that could nominally take place around now. If they wanted to do some 'familiar but new' stuff, that'd be some good material to tackle. We've had a mention of Betazed - imagine if we actually saw it go through the process of joining the Federation.
 

mightynine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,151
CBS AA does have all the Star Trek series - not sure if those are available all in one place anywhere else. So if you wanted to really fall down the rabbit hole, there's an option.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,209
What is Star Trek Discovery even about? Like, after that first season I legit have no idea. I'd like to be optimistic and say that much of S1 was just leftover Fuller ideas that they had to retrofit somehow into a coherent story. But, I really just think they don't know what they are doing. And, the Enterprise tease at the end does nothing for me.

I thought this show was called Discovery? Why the fuck should I care what Pike and Spock were up to at this time? Rather, it just strikes me as more fan service wankery because they have no confidence in their original premise.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,666
It not been updated in years because it is canon and has no reason to be changed.
point me to the episode where this is said

Crying about canon from a 60s TV show that had episodes based on what what ever sets and props they had at the studio is silly.

Canon only has any meaning from TMP and beyond because that's when the series had any semblance of structure not Nazi Planet,Gangster Planet,Medieval Planet,Roman Planet

TNG retcons a shit load of TOS anyway
 
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Breqesk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,234
It not been updated in years because it is canon and has no reason to be changed.

Nothing in Trek is canon until it's shown, on-screen, in an episode or movie. It's been that way forever—even Gene's own novelisation of TMP is, in his own words, not canon. So, we've now seen the Federation-Klingon War on-screen, and the Klingons had cloaks. Whether you like it or not - and it's fine not to, really - that's canon. As canon as anything can possibly be.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,081
Plus well, this cloak was finally beaten. So maybe the cloaking device we see them use from now on is, indeed, derived from a brief alliance with the Romulans, and proves effective enough to supplant the 'a thousand projectors' version.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,666
Klingons having cloaks never sat right with me. For a supposedly honour bound warrior race its cowardly as fuck to hide and sneak up on people.

At least the Romulans are supposed to be sneaky and traitorous.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,728
Starfleet isn't a military they just fight wars a lot. Even during the TNG era you have.

Borg attack
Cardassian war
Border Skirmishes with Romulans
Conflict with Klingons
Dominion War

They have border conflicts with every race as well

They seem to like a good fight really

The more I learn about the ST universe, the more I think that the Federation is only a Utopia if you allow for a shitton of margin of error.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,081
The more I learn about the ST universe, the more I think that the Federation is only a Utopia if you allow for a shitton of margin of error.

Really, 'Utopia' should be treated as shorthand for 'generally good society to live in, certainly better than today's standards' - at least within the bulk of its territory. Not the literal idea of utopia - which I know, is kinda the point - because it's very much not that.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,666
And thats not even getting into their health and safety record.
There must be hundreds of exploding console related deaths every year
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,728
Really, 'Utopia' should be treated as shorthand for 'generally good society to live in, certainly better than today's standards' - at least within the bulk of its territory. Not the literal idea of utopia - which I know, is kinda the point - because it's very much not that.
Right, but then this introduces the problem that Discovery collides with. "What, how can a warmonger like Lorca possibly be endorsed by the utopian Starfleet? How can they possibly consider a horrible warcrime even in desperate times?" And so on. It's a recurring complaint that I feel misses the point of discovery as a show. I don't think that Discovery is perfect by any means, but it gets to be a tiring complaint when the blatantly obvious point of the conflict is that Starfleet's ideals are being set against the desperation of war and we're not meant to be sure which will win out. And I guess I'm kinda annoyed at seeing it brought up if the past Star Treks are not purity children either.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,081
Right, but then this introduces the problem that Discovery collides with. "What, how can a warmonger like Lorca possibly be endorsed by the utopian Starfleet? How can they possibly consider a horrible warcrime even in desperate times?" And so on. It's a recurring complaint that I feel misses the point of discovery as a show. I don't think that Discovery is perfect by any means, but it gets to be a tiring complaint when the blatantly obvious point of the conflict is that Starfleet's ideals are being set against the desperation of war and we're not meant to be sure which will win out. And I guess I'm kinda annoyed at seeing it brought up if the past Star Treks are not purity children either.

How people remember shows vs how they actually were is a bit of an unfortunate thing in fandom. Star Trek's idealism is also commonly mistaken for utopianism, which doesn't help either. As MHWilliams put it, I think, Star Trek pursues a utopia, but isn't fully there yet.
 

Koukalaka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,400
Scotland
Really, 'Utopia' should be treated as shorthand for 'generally good society to live in, certainly better than today's standards' - at least within the bulk of its territory. Not the literal idea of utopia - which I know, is kinda the point - because it's very much not that.

Roddenberry's "future humanist utopia" vision was a real lead weight for early TNG - watching through DS9 now, you can practically sense the relief of the writers that the rulebook was a lot more permissive.
 

StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
Nothing in Trek is canon until it's shown, on-screen, in an episode or movie. It's been that way forever—even Gene's own novelisation of TMP is, in his own words, not canon. So, we've now seen the Federation-Klingon War on-screen, and the Klingons had cloaks. Whether you like it or not - and it's fine not to, really - that's canon. As canon as anything can possibly be.
Been referenced on screen. This is just one of many things Discovery does to break canon.
 

GungHo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
6,195
What is Star Trek Discovery even about? Like, after that first season I legit have no idea. I'd like to be optimistic and say that much of S1 was just leftover Fuller ideas that they had to retrofit somehow into a coherent story. But, I really just think they don't know what they are doing. And, the Enterprise tease at the end does nothing for me.

I thought this show was called Discovery? Why the fuck should I care what Pike and Spock were up to at this time? Rather, it just strikes me as more fan service wankery because they have no confidence in their original premise.
It took them 15 episodes to resolve with their "ya' see,Timmy" to end up at "Starfleet isn't a bunch of assholes, so we can't be assholes, boss" after being told that by their original boss who was replaced by a crazy lady who was Queen of the Asshole Universe. There was a bit of discovery of Burnham's character in the intevening time. There was an opportunity for them to explore sexual violence experienced by prisoners and PTS, but they copped out on that by saying it was his imagination.

And I jumped out of my seat when the Enterprise showed up.

The more I learn about the ST universe, the more I think that the Federation is only a Utopia if you allow for a shitton of margin of error.
It's a utopia if you're a human with a Northern accent from France who can either make fine wine, be an archaeologist, or be a starship captain based on his whims without worrying about things like "If I really suck at this, will I starve to death?" Those people are beyond the concern for money, so he can say with a straight face "we're beyond the concern for money". I don't know if him not saying that any more after pretending to be a John to his Lt who looked at him as a father figure in a bar on the Cardassian border was a creative decision of him realizing "hey, I rolled all 18s and I should watch my smug Frenglish mouth" or if the writers pool said "we said it once, we don't need to repeat ourselves". I choose to go with the former.
 

Crispy75

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,059
Canon Schmanon. Rigid adherence to Lore is just a noose round writers' necks. At this point, Star Trek is like Robin Hood or Batman. The basics of the setting are well established and writers should be free to experiment with those basics. Otherwise the whole thing ossifies under its own weight.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,173
Every single Star Trek series has rewritten canon multiple times. Why's it a problem if Discovery changes a minor bit?
 

Dougald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,937

I thought they mentioned this in The Enterprise Incident, but Memory Alpha says

In "The Enterprise Incident", Spock specifically mentions the encountered Romulan cruisers to be of Klingon design. This, as well as the fact that, around the same time, the Klingons once again used ships with cloaking capability, a technology previously thought unique to the Romulans, led to speculations about a short-lived Romulan-Klingon alliance.


So seems its never really explicitly said they got it from the Romulans, unless its mentioned elsewhere
 

GungHo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
6,195
I thought they mentioned this in The Enterprise Incident, but Memory Alpha says



So seems its never really explicitly said they got it from the Romulans, unless its mentioned elsewhere
The Romulans got Klingon D7 ships in The Enterprise Incident (TOS) and the Klingons started using cloaks in The Time Trap (TAS), though most people's first memory of Klingons using cloaks is when Reverend Jim used it in ST3 on a Romulan Klingon Bird of Prey.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,666
I thought they mentioned this in The Enterprise Incident, but Memory Alpha says



So seems its never really explicitly said they got it from the Romulans, unless its mentioned elsewhere
I mean the only reason the ships look the same is because they were trying to save money so they reused the ship. I mean Romulans in TNG don't seem the type of people who would use the tech of people they think inferior.

TOS Romulans and Klingons are completely different characters compared to Later trek

In the Orion Settlement in Discovery there was a Tent that had the Romulan Crest on it so who knows maybe it will get explained later
dsc-115-egg-romulans.jpg

Or just a dude selling Romulan ale.
 
Star Trek utopia mostly centers around humanity no having war between nations and a sufficient level of post-scarcity economics to allow, in theory, people to do the job they actually want instead of working only to survive.

There's a lot of room left over for things to be imperfect or uncomfortable for plenty of people. For example it seems people who commit to working for Starfleet enjoy a ton of perks. Like lots of free travel and access to vast amounts of hands-on experience in science and engineering to boost their career. But there's only a few hundred or thousand starfleet ships and bases for billions of humans. There would be many people who, while having their needs taken care of, can't advance beyond a certain point in their favored career.

Which might be by design. The Federation's idea of utopia could be an attempt at humane meritocracy, where everyone is insured a genuinely level floor to start from, but are encouraged to push themselves to create unique and valuable contributions in order to get more of whatever it is they desire. Which would leave many persons unhappy who simply aren't built to be a Paul Stamets.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,666
"I know you. I was like you once, but then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day they can take their 'rightful place' on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."

- Michael Eddington
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,209
DS9 also explored what a "failure" looked like in utopia Earth. Bashir's dad was a "failure" constantly switching jobs, yet never really good at anything.

The point of utopia Federation is not that there are no problems, but that basic problems and conflict have been resolved. Hunger. Shelter. Safety. Income disparity or any kind of economic strife. Violence. And, the commitment, at least in human society, to bettering oneself and society as opposed to seeking profit.

But, there still exists problems both external and internal. Like, what happens when a person just isn't good at anything? What happens when they don't really know what they want to do with their life? Those are the kind of internal problems people face on Earth. The external problems are obvious, other races and resource scarcity on far out colonies.
 

Breqesk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,234
It took them 15 episodes to resolve with their "ya' see,Timmy" to end up at "Starfleet isn't a bunch of assholes, so we can't be assholes, boss" after being told that by their original boss who was replaced by a crazy lady who was Queen of the Asshole Universe. There was a bit of discovery of Burnham's character in the intevening time. There was an opportunity for them to explore sexual violence experienced by prisoners and PTS, but they copped out on that by saying it was his imagination.

And I jumped out of my seat when the Enterprise showed up.


It's a utopia if you're a human with a Northern accent from France who can either make fine wine, be an archaeologist, or be a starship captain based on his whims without worrying about things like "If I really suck at this, will I starve to death?" Those people are beyond the concern for money, so he can say with a straight face "we're beyond the concern for money". I don't know if him not saying that any more after pretending to be a John to his Lt who looked at him as a father figure in a bar on the Cardassian border was a creative decision of him realizing "hey, I rolled all 18s and I should watch my smug Frenglish mouth" or if the writers pool said "we said it once, we don't need to repeat ourselves". I choose to go with the former.

I'm kinda confused about the point you're making here? Like, the 'those people' in this statement are, well, Federation citizens. The show's never been shy about showing that life outside the Federation - which the outpost in that episode with Ro very much was - is frequently not nearly so pleasant. Like, there's no subversive point about 'haves' and 'have-nots' within the Federation to be found in this comparison, since it's explicitly being made between life within the Federation and life outside of it. Picard's claim, that money doesn't matter within the Federation, is never shown to be inaccurate—and certainly not by the comparison you're making here.

To be clear, I don't think the Federation is perfect, or anything like that—I just genuinely don't get what you're trying to say.
 

golem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,878
What is even on CBS access besides Discovery? I mean there is no way in hell I would ever subscribe to the service but for curiosity sake what is even on it? I mean when I think of CBS, all I think of is shitty procedurals and very broad comedies ala two and half men and big bang theory. I assume it has to have more than that right.
The Good Wife sequel, Twilight Zone reboot from Jordan Peele, Strange Angel from Scott Free. Not bad but they need more Trek for sure.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,633
DS9 also explored what a "failure" looked like in utopia Earth. Bashir's dad was a "failure" constantly switching jobs, yet never really good at anything.

The point of utopia Federation is not that there are no problems, but that basic problems and conflict have been resolved. Hunger. Shelter. Safety. Income disparity or any kind of economic strife. Violence. And, the commitment, at least in human society, to bettering oneself and society as opposed to seeking profit.

But, there still exists problems both external and internal. Like, what happens when a person just isn't good at anything? What happens when they don't really know what they want to do with their life? Those are the kind of internal problems people face on Earth. The external problems are obvious, other races and resource scarcity on far out colonies.
I always thought that those that didn't really fit in could go on and move to another planet/colony where they might fit in better. They wouldn't have to stay behind on Earth if it wasn't a right fit for them. Much like some aliens prefer to move to earth and join Starfleet
 

Mengy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,525
So now that the season is over, is it worth getting CBS All Access for a month to watch it?

I saw the first ep and it really didn't grab me, despite being a huge Star Trek fan. Yet from perusing a bit of this thread it seems like people enjoyed it a lot. I wouldn't mind paying for one month's worth just to binge all of the eps if they are good.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,633
So now that the season is over, is it worth getting CBS All Access for a month to watch it?

I saw the first ep and it really didn't grab me, despite being a huge Star Trek fan. Yet from perusing a bit of this thread it seems like people enjoyed it a lot. I wouldn't mind paying for one month's worth just to binge all of the eps if they are good.
I think you get a free month if you get their two week trial, when you cancel they extend it for a month.

I really liked it and think it would be worth giving it a try, especially if it's free :p
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,666
Off the top of my head, Kor (I think) mentions cloak being new in late 2260s in a DS9 episode, with barely any Klingons knowing how it worked at the time.
Found it battle of Caleb 4 Star Trek online puts the date at 2270 so you could see that as a retcon.

Kor has dementia in that episode though and he's boasting to young Klingons about how great he is so its hard to tell how much he embellished the story.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,209
I always thought that those that didn't really fit in could go on and move to another planet/colony where they might fit in better. They wouldn't have to stay behind on Earth if it wasn't a right fit for them. Much like some aliens prefer to move to earth and join Starfleet

Well, of course they can, but the idea is that there will always be "failures" no matter how perfect a society may be.
 

The40Watt

Member
Oct 29, 2017
963
Has there been any mention of when season 2 will air? I assume we are looking at Spring 2019 at the earliest.