New Research Shows a Vast Majority of Cis People Won't Date Trans People

excelsiorlef said:

Lol

Nah. People are capable of caveating here. They haven't. Shit we've had people outright say in the bedroom post op trans women are still men to them and get praise for articulating it.

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Yeah. Hmmm. My problem is that there seem to be two kinds of conversation going on in this topic- people trying to understand why the study results ended up the way they did (and how that relates to bigotry) and people tripping over themselves to clarify that they're totally not bigots because they wouldn't date a trans person/they would totally date a trans person. Since its such a sensitive subject, I think it's hard to tell which conversation each individual poster is trying to have. Maybe I'm wrong and they're the same conversation, but if it is I don't see it.
And as you pointed out there's definitely individuals just trying to justify their own predjudices which doesn't make things any easier.

Umm. Reading over this post I suppose the second conversation may answer my question about the study, huh.

Skade said:

I guess the gist of it is that you generally don't know if the trans person you're meeting is pre or post-op (kinda important for sexy time). And since as a cis, you generally don't know how you can ask THAT question without being an ass, you take "no risk" and pass on.

At least, that's my take on it.

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Basically.

So the lesson of the day is that a lot of people on Era don't know what a trans person really is and think a woman pees out her vagina. Now all the ass wiping threads suddenly make sense.....

TheLostBigBoss said:

I'm picturing a first a second date where a women or guy talks about how they can't have kids/have fertility issues

"Hahahaha CYA LOSSA!"

I always love the idea of putting value on someone if their reproductive organs are 100% functional.

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So if someone wants kids they should put that life goal aside for basically a stranger? Lol

ITT

Someone literally said when push comes to shove they still see trans women as men, and a bunch of people responded to it with shit like "well said", "said it better than I could"

This is some never tell me the odds shit.

I know I'm unwanted, but that level of unwanted?

excelsiorlef said:

You realize trans women aren't a monolith in appearance eh?

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I do realize that, yes. But I'm not attracted to male genitals. Post-op trans woman might be a different story, I don't know how a surgically-created vagina compares to a cis woman's so I'll plead ignorance on that one.

different strokes for different folks

attraction isn't a switch you decide to turn on or off.

attraction lights up by itself and you get that tingle.

so it's all up to the individual

I'm a gay cis dude and I'd date a trans dude. If they're cool and there's a mutual attraction, great!

I'm not scared of vaginas; I'll go down on them like a champ and learn something new, hopefully, if they let me and so long as they don't mind that I'm inexperienced. I'm willing to broaden my horizons. I know some straight dudes don't even like going down on their cis girlfriends. Those poor women.

Younger gay me wouldn't have thought he'd have to worry about getting someone pregnant, but it's a whole new world out there, especially as someone who would prefer to bottom, ha. But that's why there's toys and shit for double the pleasure. Get fucked while fucking, etc. Or just be the bottom anyway, but that feels like a waste. Verse it up.

I don't feel like enjoying a trans partner's genitals would make me any less gay, but that seems like a very unexplored can of worms. It's usually one seen from the majority: aka straight people (okay, I'm mainly talking about cis dudes). I can only imagine some of the hang-ups. "If I'm a dude but like a pre-op trans girl, am I gay? Bi?" Then there's male fragility, which I imagine something along the lines of, "What if their dick is bigger than mine?" or "I just don't wanna see another penis besides mine."

"Ew, penis," and "But biological children" are zzz. But that's just me. I wouldn't want to pass down my genes, what with my depression and all. I'm only half of the equation, but I don't want to see my imperfections in my own child. I think adoption is a wonderful thing, and I'd gladly go that route, but I don't blame anyone at all for wanting biological children. I'm not blind to the appeal of seeing something you helped create running around and eventually carrying on whatever legacy you think you have.

I do wish adoption were faster and a little easier so more children would find loving parents, though, gay or not.

Well, that's been my gay two cents. Hopefully it gets easier for trans people when it comes to love and sex and all that shit in the coming years, and hopefully more people are willing to educate themselves on trans struggles.

TheLostBigBoss said:

I'm picturing a first a second date where a women or guy talks about how they can't have kids/have fertility issues

"Hahahaha CYA LOSSA!"

I always love the idea of putting value on someone if their reproductive organs are 100% functional.

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Your continued reductionism with this argument is honestly hilarious.

Yes, some people are using it as a scapegoat to mask their transphobia. Others aren't. Your personal reductivist feelings on this issue clearly aren't shared by everyone and I don't know why you can't come to accept that.

kswiston said:

This is pretty much my take too. It is internal prejudice. I don't think people need to be browbeaten about it if it is only extending to their dating choices, but accepting your own prejudices and realizing that they are illogical and not admirable helps in not spreading them to other people (like your eventual kids) and perpetuating these cycles.

I don't think that we are THAT far away from the biological children thing being a non-issue. A few decades assuming that our politicians don't send us back to serfdom. Someone will figure out how to reliably make gametes out of autosomal cells. Coming up with a uterus solution for cis-male/trans-female couples is probably further off, but given how far genetics and med-tech has come in 50 years, probably not THAT far off. Transitioning methods will continue improving too, especially as increasing acceptance/awareness leads to more transgender kids realizing that they are transgender at younger ages. So if these stats don't dramatically improve in the future, it will be because our generation passed on their prejudices.

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When do we get anime magic that randomly lets us change our genitals? YOU know what kind of anime i'm talking about ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I'm open to it, as a cis man, but I do tend to be more attracted (at 28) to people I can see myself having a biological family with. I think I'm hitting that late summer in my life tho.

I will say that sexual preference and social acceptance are not being mistakenly conflated here, because they are naturally conflated. If certain people aren't normalized, there is a measure of otherness ergo discomfort which could easily mitigate sexual attraction. Particularly with the less adventurous types.

This thread is a great example of why half of all trans people attempt suicide at some point in their lives.

All this thread is lacking is a self proclaimed vagina conisieur who claims they can spot a surgical vagina from a mile away

Ok, my understanding is that gender is in the mind and sex is in the body. Transgender folks have a mind that doesn't match their body.

So, my attraction is to female bodies. I'm a cis man. Whatever gender your mind is, that doesn't change your body, which is what I'm attracted to. I can easily see myself being attracted to a (pre-op) cisman, but not a pre-op ciswoman. Post-op ciswoman would depend on the outcome of the procedure.

Anyway, I really don't see what's bigoted about the above. I am honestly open to having my mind changed if I'm wrong.

Siggy-P said:

Are you implying that heterosexuality is a social construct here?



I know there's a high amount of active LGBT posters on Resetera (myself one of them), and the study not mentioning a difference between post and pre op is gonna naturaly lead to peopel arguing over different points entirely...
...But that this thread has legitimatly reached the point were people are arguing that straight people don't actually exist is something else altogether.

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No one's saying straight people don't exist.

But does being a straight man mean you like women, or does it mean you inherently like vaginas/don't like penises?

And if it's the former, and societal influences have led to people feeling the latter, it's valid to question that influence and want that to change, right?

TheLostBigBoss said:

I'm picturing a first a second date where a women or guy talks about how they can't have kids/have fertility issues

"Hahahaha CYA LOSSA!"

I always love the idea of putting value on someone if their reproductive organs are 100% functional.

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I mean . . . people have bailed on potential relationships because of bad breath and you can't see why this would be a dealbreaker for many?

TheLostBigBoss said:

I'm picturing a first a second date where a women or guy talks about how they can't have kids/have fertility issues

"Hahahaha CYA LOSSA!"

I always love the idea of putting value on someone if their reproductive organs are 100% functional.

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We put value on a lot of things, like health, education, hobbies, future plans like kids, marriage, home ownership, political views etc... Like if someone was completely incompatible with your life goals and lifestyle why would you stick with them? You'd be miserable and would probably make them miserable as a result. You aren't denying the value of that person as a human being or their right to exist, you two just wouldn't be a good fit for a relationship. Telling people how they should go about dating is a terrible fucking argument.

Aang's_Bae said:

I mean . . . people have bailed on potential relationships because of bad breath and you can't see why this would be a dealbreaker for many?

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that can be fixed by going to the dentist every 6 months to get a cleaning

and no smokeing

KHarvey16 said:

Do you think it's fair when folks respond to posts suggesting every person who decides not to have a relationship with or have sex with a trans person is a bigot?

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Someone who unironically claims that they would never, under any circumstances date any woman that's trans, black, Asian, or who could be ascribed any other characteristic beyond their control, showing absolutely no respect for the individuality of the women in those groups, is a bigot, yes.

Mauricio_Magus said:

What lie? I hope you don't expect people to have a huge "I'M TRANS" banner on their faces, they are men and women, and they aren't lying to you.

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If you omit something that major at the start of a relationship, then yes that's dishonest.

I even said I'd give that person a chance if the attraction was there, but that's not good enough, everyone should accept it regardless of personal preference, right? And if not then somehow that person is denying themselves by not fighting that preference they have always had and suddenly open up to the new experience so you, not they can feel better about things.

excelsiorlef said:

All this thread is lacking is a self proclaimed vagina conisieur who claims they can spot a surgical vagina from a mile away

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I've slept with both cis women and a trans woman. She must have had a good surgeon because it was the prettiest damn pussy ever(afaik there's no discernible difference.). So yeah, ppl in this thread talking out their ass

:/

Fuck, man.

deepFlaw said:

But does being a straight man mean you like women, or does it mean you inherently like vaginas/don't like penises?

And if it's the former, and societal influences have led to people feeling the latter, it's valid to question that influence and want that to change, right?

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It's not the former. It's the latter. It's very definitively the latter. The fact that straight men can like women who look butch or have manly features is anecdotally evidence enough of this.

Tht's not debatable. That's the definition of being straight.

Some may be more fluid but then they aren't straight. That's not what's beig argued here. We all accept that bi people are most likely to be accepting.

I dunno. Not in the dating game right now, but I'd have to wrap my head around it, which society hasn't really prepared me for. When my brain was developing, I would have liked to receive signals that it was a normal thing to do, so I wouldn't have learned to suppress instincts that I've been told were unnatural or undesirable.

I hope the next generation fares a lot better.

Beardz said:

No, I won't date trans, fats, ugly people. What's the peoblem?

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I can't even.

Brazil said:

Someone who unironically claims that they would never, under any circumstances date any woman that's trans, black, Asian, or who could be ascribed any other characteristic beyond their control, showing absolutely no respect for the individuality of the women in those groups, is a bigot, yes.

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TIL I am a bigot

Brock Reiher said:

Yeah. Hmmm. My problem is that there seem to be two kinds of conversation going on in this topic- people trying to understand why the study results ended up the way they did (and how that relates to bigotry) and people tripping over themselves to clarify that they're totally not bigots because they wouldn't date a trans person/they would totally date a trans person. Since its such a sensitive subject, I think it's hard to tell which conversation each individual poster is trying to have. Maybe I'm wrong and they're the same conversation, but if it is I don't see it.
And as you pointed out there's definitely individuals just trying to justify their own predjudices which doesn't make things any easier.

Umm. Reading over this post I suppose the second conversation may answer my question about the study, huh.

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I'm in this camp.

I was just reading along, with nothing particularly important to say. But then someone said something along the lines of "do you consider a woman with a penis a woman" and I actually said "hell no" out loud.

Kind of sobering, knowing you're an asshole.

So, how to get past that? If a woman is post op, and is attractive to me, then we're good. But if she still has a penis? Nope.

I seriously want to know how to not be part of the problem.

I don't get why people are so hung up on genitals.

I'm a straight cis guy. I'm attracted to the female form. I like the curves and the smoothness and all that good stuff.

I don't find vaginas attractive. They feel good for sex but they are not a pretty sight. I've seen my fair share of them and it is what it is.

I also don't find penises attractive, though they are marginally more aesthetically pleasing than vaginas.

I'm happily engaged to a cis woman, so dating other people is off the table for me, but if I were single, and I found someone with the features I find attractive on a woman - the curves, the body shape, the smoothness, yada yada -, and our personalities mesh well, then why the hell should I let anything else about them become a dating obstacle?

To each their own, but man, life is short. Enjoy the ride.

Brazil said:

Someone who unironically claims that they would never, under any circumstances date any woman that's trans, black, Asian, or who could be ascribed any other characteristic beyond their control, showing absolutely no respect for the individuality of the women in those groups, is a bigot, yes.

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I don't see how anyone reasonable can disagree with this.

gutter_trash said:

different strokes for different folks

attraction isn't a switch you decide to turn on or off.

attraction lights up by itself and you get that tingle.

so it's all up to the individual

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Oh yeah. That's a lie. Attraction follows trends. Like, look as big asses and how trendy they are and how many men fall over themselves to get a woman with one.

PunishedOkabe said:

TIL I am a bigot

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Maybe learn how to better yourself next.

Siggy-P said:

It's not the former. It's the latter. It's very definitively the latter. The fact that straight men can like women who look butch or have manly features is anecdotally evidence enough of this.

Tht's not debatable. That's the definition of being straight.

Some may be more fluid but then they aren't straight. That's not what's beig argued here. We all accept that bi people are most likely to be accepting.

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And the study also reflects that as they were the group who were most likely to state they didn't care.

Siggy-P said:

It's not the former. It's the latter. It's very definitively the latter. The fact that straight men can like women who look butch or have manly features is anecdotally evident enough of this.

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No it's not. That still falls under being attracted to women. Butch women are women.

Brazil said:

Someone who unironically claims that they would never, under any circumstances date any woman that's trans, black, Asian, or who could be ascribed any other characteristic beyond their control, showing absolutely no respect for the individuality of the women in those groups, is a bigot, yes.

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.

Might need to just throw this at the top of every page tbh

Siggy-P said:

It's not the former. It's the latter. It's very definitively the latter. The fact that straight men can like women who look butch or have manly features is anecdotally evidence enough of this.

Tht's not debatable. That's the definition of being straight.

Some may be more fluid but then they aren't straight. That's not what's beig argued here. We all accept that bi people are most likely to be accepting.

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...how does straight men liking butch women anecedotally prove that specifically, but doesn't anecdotally prove that they're attracted to butch women because they're women?

Avitus said:

We put value on a lot of things, like health, education, hobbies, future plans like kids, marriage, home ownership, political views etc... Like if someone was completely incompatible with your life goals and lifestyle why would you stick with them? You'd be miserable and would probably make them miserable as a result. You aren't denying the value of that person as a human being or their right to exist, you two just wouldn't be a good fit for a relationship. Telling people how they should go about dating is a terrible fucking argument.

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Of course people have life goals and have preferences, doesn't mean I don't think it's rather ridiculous in a 21st century society to be hung up on a biological aspect of someones being if they are able to aid in having kids.

Especially in the context of trans people and the fact so many people here apparently can't fathom being in a relationship with someone who is a women but can't have kids.

Because that's literally what is happening if you date a trans women.

And it's pretty obvious that the main hangup with people pulling the kids card ain't the "I can't have kids" angle.

Neece said:

No it's not. That still falls under being attracted to women. Butch women are women.

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They're also hot af. That girl in Terminator 6? Yes please!

Dicer said:

If you omit something that major at the start of a relationship, then yes that's dishonest.

I even said I'd give that person a chance if the attraction was there, but that's not good enough, everyone should accept it regardless of personal preference, right? And if not then somehow that person is denying themselves by not fighting that preference they have always had and suddenly open up to the new experience so you, not they can feel better about things.

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I know trans people that don't bring it up because they don't have to talk about their genitalia, if you like them then you like them, that's it.

And if they do bring it up, is because they fear their partner getting fucking violent, because this world sucks.

PhazonBlonde said:

They're also hot af. That girl in Terminator 6? Yes please!

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Wrong thread lol?

As others have said, social acceptance and equality does not enforce sexual preference.
I shouldn't have to point out why criticizing people for not wanting to be in a relationship with any particular gender solely because of what the society deems is acceptable is wrong. The situation is extremely unfortunate and i get that, but i'm honestly not sure what the correct solution to it is other than hoping the social acceptance of trans people improves enormously and those that are willing to be in a relationship with them do so without having to worry about unjust societal pressure constantly weighing on said relationship.

Psittacus said:

It's a natural by-product of being raised in an environment that equates biological sex markers with gender. People's preferences are so intertwined with bullshit because are taught that only men have penises.

At the end of the day that is how you feel and nobody can force you to change. But it's worth recognising that it's more complicated than an innate dislike of dicks.

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Are you suggesting that sexual attraction between two people with different biological sex markers is largely a construct of human society and that you can, even theoretically given enough time and appropriate conditions, educate people out of it ?

Neece said:

No it's not. That still falls under being attracted to women. Butch women are women.

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Wh- How's that different from what I said? Did I say butch women weren't women?

A straight person is attracted to someone of the opposite sex. Not gender, sex, as in the opposite genitalia. The gender or any other aspect like that is determined by societal conditioning, but not the attraction or unattraction to the genatalia.

BDS said:

This thread is a great example of why half of all trans people attempt suicide at some point in their lives.

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this

Brazil said:

Someone who unironically claims that they would never, under any circumstances date any woman that's trans, black, Asian, or who could be ascribed any other characteristic beyond their control, showing absolutely no respect for the individuality of the women in those groups, is a bigot, yes.

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Could you respond to the question I asked? I'm not sure why multiple times now people have felt it necessary to add so many qualifiers I never mentioned before giving the answer.

Is it an issue for folks to respond to claims that anyone who doesn't date and/or have sex with a trans person is a bigot?

excelsiorlef said:

Trans folk should start being incels... then folks here would probably show us more empathy.

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Oh shit

Brazil said:

Someone who unironically claims that they would never, under any circumstances date any woman that's trans, black, Asian, or who could be ascribed any other characteristic beyond their control, showing absolutely no respect for the individuality of the women in those groups, is a bigot, yes.

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Pretty much my stance on this.

UraMallas said:

Omg. Thread redeemed. You think women pee out of their vaginas?

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he never said anything about women ;0

Brazil said:

Someone who unironically claims that they would never, under any circumstances date any woman that's trans, black, Asian, or who could be ascribed any other characteristic beyond their control, showing absolutely no respect for the individuality of the women in those groups, is a bigot, yes.

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This is a really weird argument to make. Length preferences are bigoted? Mental stability? Handicaps? Facial features? These are all things that could be out of someones control and also a turn-off. Blanketing anyone who ever didn't like a physical feature of someone as a bigot is a little ridiculous.