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2020 Democratic Presidential Primary | OT | Hickenlooper makes it to the debate
- Thread starter pigeon
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Politics is the application of policy.
Winning elections is a means to apply the policies you believe should be good for society. If you give up anything you believe in just to win the election then what's the point?
Here's the actual reality
Some Bernie supporters got full assault and then play victim
Some Bernie detractors go full assault and then play victim
Meanwhile Beto thinks issues are complicated, that's why we call them issues, and that y'all should stop, come together agree that issues are issues and that we have to address issues and that it takes a village, nay, a country to build the infrastructure to face head on the issues and it can't just be one man or one party, instead it must be a nation, a nation willing to issue a decree that the issues will be issued a notice that the issues have been put on notice, so that one day soon the issues won't be issues anymore and in their place will instead be A New America For All
Some Bernie supporters got full assault and then play victim
Some Bernie detractors go full assault and then play victim
Meanwhile Beto thinks issues are complicated, that's why we call them issues, and that y'all should stop, come together agree that issues are issues and that we have to address issues and that it takes a village, nay, a country to build the infrastructure to face head on the issues and it can't just be one man or one party, instead it must be a nation, a nation willing to issue a decree that the issues will be issued a notice that the issues have been put on notice, so that one day soon the issues won't be issues anymore and in their place will instead be A New America For All
Lots of issues are unpopular until they aren't. It's why even using ID Pol issues the Dems more often than not lose because they are terrified of rolling out ahead of something and trying to make it a position to stand on rather than coming out pos-facto as "well actually I supported this now popular position well before the rest of my party did" to win brownie points. And why they are constantly playing react to the GOP when they throw out these fallacious culture war dumb shit points because they never come out ahead of anything. So they allow their opposition to literally dictate the discourse and spend the rest of the time reacting. It hasn't worked, since 2006 the Dems have basically suffered nothing but massive state and federal defeats, at a point you need to just stand for something and stand firm in it rather than allowing your enemies to constantly tell you what you stand for and playing defense on every issue.
Stand up on a stage and scream to the masses "why should anybody have to die because they can't afford medication, while the richest people in history get tax breaks" and MAKE them answer this question. Make them justify to the masses why people are dying and why health insurance companies make literal trillions of dollars off the backs of our sick and dying. Make them answer this.
Winning an election is not politics, it's the means to which we as a society have chosen to gatekeep politics. Politics is what is supposed to happen after winning the election.
If winning was the important bit we should literally just run Colbert or some shit for all the difference it makes. Politics being a popularity contest is how we arrived at the current paradigm in the first place. Yes, I acknowledge that you can't change that overnight and that this election will largely be a popularity contest to some people. But if the end result of this popularity contest is "nobodies lives get better and the world slips closer to oblivion" then what difference does it make.
For me personally as a Sanders supporter it's the disrespectful names for both him and his supporters that get me going. The dude has been on the right side of almost everything for literal decades and if you can't at least respect that...It's just antagonizing and bullshit. It makes me wonder what the hell these people really want for this country.
Analyzing the continued causes of racism is super important, like probably one of the most important things there is. Looking for those causes doesn't mean you are excusing the act.
I dunno, I see so much Bernie Bros or Bernie Stans or insinuating posters here as such. I don't take any criticisms of Bernie personally but I think there are a lot of disingenuous posts or hyperbolic ones that I will want to counter with.
Finding out why people are creating enemies is how you treat the disease. We've been trying to ameliorate these symptoms since industrialization and have come to the point now where the list of causes is fairly short and easily understandable.
Republican's can be vote for unpopular ideas because they have a chunk of the population that will never vote for a Democrat, as long as that Democrat wants to kill babies, make their kids gay, move Those People in their neighborhood with free houses, and take away their guns. Insert LBJ quote about convincing the lowest white man here.
Democrat's actually have to have popular support for their programs to win.
Sigh. The study I just posted pretty much refuted what you just said. I didn't pretend you were saying it automatically causes people to vote Trump, I categorically denied economic anxiety being a factor at all, whereas you clearly claim it was (without any source to back you up). Them voting trump was a result of Trump saying what they always wanted to hear anyway. It has nothing to do with economic anxiety, and all with deep rooted racism.
This is important too. Trump also utilized the growing detached sentiment in regards to the government or political system. He represented someone who is not the typical politician.
Of course, he was a con man and is the typical politican, but even more racist, xenophobic, etc...
I personally don't take an attack on any politician personally because they're a politician. They aren't my friend, just because I agree with them on policy issues (and disagree on others) and find them to be a suitable candidate doesn't mean that they're my buddy or that I am connected to them in any meaningful capacity other than holding them accountable based on their politics.
Not really what he's saying. He's saying the structures of capitalism produce racism as the only alternative to the destabilizing of capitalism (through civil unrest or electoral reform). Capital needs a bogeyman to take the brunt of popular resentment, the foreign immigrant provides a convenient bogeyman, the foreign immigrant is also immigrating because their home has been exploited by capitalists.
It's not that socialism would magically cure racism but socialism doesn't need an external enemy to protect its power structures like capitalism does (except when socialist states degenerate into authoritarianism, but this is true of all authoritarian states). For one, there would be less economic refugees if we weren't constantly exploiting other countries to enrich ourselves. Two, politicians would bang the "foreign devils" drum less if they weren't in a position to directly profit off of it. Three, we can begin in earnest the long work of erasing racism from our culture once freed from private interests that benefit from the continuation of race antagonism.
It doesn't matter what he thinks about Clinton. Frankly he's right about some of it. It matters that he embrace the six to eight million people who did support her enthusiastically. Some portion of those are just (D)s who aren't fussy about it or are too pragmatic to worry about but primary voters by and large are much more engaged and personally invested in candidates.
Bernie of all people should understand the value and importance of that especially before the primary. He doesn't have to write love letters - just be positive and diplomatic about it.
Yep. Exactly.
I agree, which is why it's weird the Left ignores the actual causes, to blame capitalism and absolve white voters because those white voters are OK with socialism as long as it's socialism for them.
I posted this before, but I would love to see Era ban the use of
-BernieBro
-Centrist as an attack
-Neolib as an attack
-Lib or liberal as a pejorative
-milquetoast as an attack on anyone who's not supporting Sanders
Let's stick to the candidates and issues and avoid personal attacks.
This is not what we're doing at all. It's not an absolution, it's an answer to "how do we lift these people/their kids out of the bigotry of their culture".
Do you want us to just kill them?
Maybe he might actually use the oppo research unlike Clinton in the primary
Smart hire.
Not even to mention that Trump voters being the more economically impoverished section of the population is flat out false. Trump voters were the more economically stable demographic.
I can;t in good faith take credit for the fine and concrete Betology
And I and others have agreed with this before. I don't believe the mod/s agree though or I imagine they would have chimed in, unless they just didn't see the discussion.
And honestly I didn't know "centrist" was lumped in with those other words? I'll happily not use it though if that's the case. I don't think I ever have anyway, but I could be wrong.
In other words, everything will be fine when our magical pixie dust gets put into practice.
If we gave ti wait until "culture is freed from private interests" to start work on erasing racism and until then, we just have to deal with the racists and we can't call out their racism because it's all capitalism fault to pass socialist policies, then I'm out.
How about this, let people live and work where they want and if people vote for racists because of that, we call that out instead of absolving it.
The mindset of scarcity is what better represents what I'm talking about. The poll involved asking people of different financial backgrounds and the sample was of 4000+ people. And it makes a big difference where the sample came from. I will concede the point if those people came from the swing states where this occurred. Maybe it did, in which case I'm wrong.
However, seeing as I didn't use scarcity to first describe my position, it's my fault this disagreement happened. There's a whole host of factors that contribute to this mindset of scarcity so my original economic angle was wrong regardless.
There isn't much to go up in flames there. More like a tiny poof.
No, I want to pass universal benefits that will help everyone, while calling out the racism, sexism, and bigotry of society, instead of saying it's all capitalism and economic anxietys fault. You can help Trump voters without absolving their vote for Trump or ignoring their support of racists, like Bernie's new press secretary wants to do because otherwise is race reductionist according to her.
We aren't talking about Trump's base, which is moderately wealthy 55 year olds who own ski rental shops in Des Moines. At least I'm not. I'm talking about the disenfranchised people that don't regularly vote in any capacity. That there are ways to win these people over using their economic self interest, and this group includes everybody not just miserable white people.
Literally nobody is absolving racist causes for these things. And nobody is suggesting that this is a "poof, no more racism" fix. That you have to begin with solving the issues at the heart of society to deal with the issue rather than desperately flailing at individual racists because it doesn't solve the systemic problems. You're flatly disingenuous at best.
And how has that been working out for you? How does this solve the institutional racism in the police? Systemic racism in education?
Calling out does nothing without proactive reform. It's not that we think capitalist democracies CAN'T reform, it's that we think it's too SLOW and there's too many people being hurt in the meantime. Thinking your capitalist democracy will get better one day does not magically bring back all the brown people in developing countries we bombed/exploited to death. Radical change is necessary to end the meaningless sacrifice of lives now, lives being sacrificed in the name of maintaining the status quo.
I fail to see how changing the power structure that profits from and perpetuates racism and other bigotry is magical pixie dust while "calling out racists" is the concrete method to solve the systematic issues. How about we use the former to turn off the source of the fire, and then use the latter to put out the fires that remain?
All things considered, America's doing far better on race and such than Europe is, especially as we look at polling that shows majorities in virtually every single European country wants less immigration while a strong majority in America is currently OK with our current number or wants more immigration. Give me the nation where anybody can become part of the fabric of the nation in one generation, as opposed to Europe, where you can live in a nation for generations upon generations, and never be considered part of that nation.
Concretely, how do you think "calling racists out" is going to, for example, fix economic segregation in urban environments like:
https://www.theroot.com/watch-room-filled-with-rich-white-nyc-parents-gets-bi-1825600194
Watch: Roomful of Rich, White NYC Parents Get Big Mad at Plan to Diversify Neighborhood's Schools
Their power stems from their wealth. For the socialist, to challenge that wealth is to erode their power, and to erode their power is how we can save minority kids in the cities in the long term.
https://www.theroot.com/watch-room-filled-with-rich-white-nyc-parents-gets-bi-1825600194
Watch: Roomful of Rich, White NYC Parents Get Big Mad at Plan to Diversify Neighborhood's Schools
Do you plan to just shame them into capitulation?
Their power stems from their wealth. For the socialist, to challenge that wealth is to erode their power, and to erode their power is how we can save minority kids in the cities in the long term.
What the hell are you even talking about anymore. European nationalism is again, rooted in the disintegration of Europe's left and the resurgence of a strong right that backs itself using the left created welfare systems to craft their legitimacy while rambling about their enemies to divert focus from the actual causes of economic collapse. Which in principle is austerity measures and being beholden utterly to the IMF.
I do think capitalist democracies CAN'T reform in a way that allows racism to end, especially because they don't want to. The ruling class has every interest in keeping racial tensions up
Capitalism isn't the issue when it comes to issues of racism in society, though. Once you move past the sterotypical view of whose a racist, some of the most racist things I've ever heard have come from incredibly rich people, not the economically anxious.
The issue at the heart of society in America is race, and until you deal with that, Bernie could hit a magic socialism button that existed on Inauguration Day in 2021 and decades later, if we don't deal with the heart of the problem, including calling out racist acts, you'd still have black people dealing with systematic racism, except they'd have a bigger welfare state, which would be great, but wouldn't fix the underlying issues.
I know some people think this, it's just not how I see it. The problem of "incrementalism" to me is speed, not plausibility.
Ah, yes, because Black Americans became "part of the fabric of the nation in one generation", and haven't been fighting for their footing against the white ruling class for three centuries, a fight that's going on today.
In shocking news, I think you can raise taxes, pass wealth taxes, and everything else, while also calling out racism and sexism in society and not appeasing 50-something former welders in Wisconsin who are scared of immigrants, which whom class first socialists are scared of turning off. Also, as we know in Soviet Russia, there were no problems with powerful people getting more than they deserve, but in the future ruled by the DSA, we won't have that problem at all.
Good thing I didn't suggest any appeasement, you're tilting at windmills here.
Also worth pointing out that reform is not just slow revolution, and revolution is not just fast reform. They have fundamentally different goals and complement one another in the development of society, but are still reciprocally exclusive.
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