I don't think you realize how sad this statement is
I don't think you realize how sad this statement is
Politics is the application of policy.
Lots of issues are unpopular until they aren't. It's why even using ID Pol issues the Dems more often than not lose because they are terrified of rolling out ahead of something and trying to make it a position to stand on rather than coming out pos-facto as "well actually I supported this now popular position well before the rest of my party did" to win brownie points. And why they are constantly playing react to the GOP when they throw out these fallacious culture war dumb shit points because they never come out ahead of anything. So they allow their opposition to literally dictate the discourse and spend the rest of the time reacting. It hasn't worked, since 2006 the Dems have basically suffered nothing but massive state and federal defeats, at a point you need to just stand for something and stand firm in it rather than allowing your enemies to constantly tell you what you stand for and playing defense on every issue.You said a lot of things that i agree with so i won't restate but your point about republicans is absolutely spot on right .
For Comparison Trump's border wall support is only around 45% and it was his signature issue. Democrats are just more afraid to run on "unpopular" ideas.
Winning an election is not politics, it's the means to which we as a society have chosen to gatekeep politics. Politics is what is supposed to happen after winning the election.
Analyzing the continued causes of racism is super important, like probably one of the most important things there is. Looking for those causes doesn't mean you are excusing the act.Yes, if only we had socialism, white people would stop being racist to newcomers.
That's not how I see it at all as a Bernie fan. Moreso people attack Bernie and then others take it as a personal attack. Shrug
Finding out why people are creating enemies is how you treat the disease. We've been trying to ameliorate these symptoms since industrialization and have come to the point now where the list of causes is fairly short and easily understandable.Analyzing the continued causes of racism is super important, like probably one of the most important things there is. Looking for those causes doesn't mean you are excusing the act.
You said a lot of things that i agree with so i won't restate but your point about republicans is absolutely spot on right .
For Comparison Trump's border wall support is only around 45% and it was his signature issue. Democrats are just more afraid to run on "unpopular" ideas.
Another strawman.
Nobody is saying that economic anxiety automatically causes people to just vote for a candidate. We're saying that Trump utilized that and directed that anger at minorities more than other candidates. I've already stated that Trump amplified that. In that part we're in agreement with each other. You'd have to be blind to not see Trump has tried to divide the country more than any other presidential candidate I can remember. BTW, this is all at the margins because republicans have largely had bigoted views like being anti LBGT, or anti muslim, or anti mexican, etc...just not to the extent of Trump. Also, the mindset is that of scarcity both at the macro level and micro (your own life) level. A person might not be bad financially, but if they think the cause of this country's problems overall come from people of color being a drain on their society, they will express that. Trump blamed people of color for the problems at the macro and micro level.
This is important too. Trump also utilized the growing detached sentiment in regards to the government or political system. He represented someone who is not the typical politician.Incrementalism is also why we're all fighting over scraps, nobody's happy, and why malicious people are able to redirect that fear and anger toward marginalized groups rather than the people in power, which is the ethos that lead to trump. These incremental systems that are touted as the only way to get things done, are exactly why nothing (or nothing good) gets done. They aren't there to fight for people, they are there to defend the current power structure.
I personally don't take an attack on any politician personally because they're a politician. They aren't my friend, just because I agree with them on policy issues (and disagree on others) and find them to be a suitable candidate doesn't mean that they're my buddy or that I am connected to them in any meaningful capacity other than holding them accountable based on their politics.I dunno, I see so much Bernie Bros or Bernie Stans or insinuating posters here as such. I don't take any criticisms of Bernie personally but I think there are a lot of disingenuous posts or hyperbolic ones that I will want to counter with.
Not really what he's saying. He's saying the structures of capitalism produce racism as the only alternative to the destabilizing of capitalism (through civil unrest or electoral reform). Capital needs a bogeyman to take the brunt of popular resentment, the foreign immigrant provides a convenient bogeyman, the foreign immigrant is also immigrating because their home has been exploited by capitalists.Yes, if only we had socialism, white people would stop being racist to newcomers.
I really do.
His taxes are a legitimate issue and he should have released them a long time ago, I've never denied that.
I don't believe he's "fighting the ghost of Hillary Clinton" or whatever. If they don't like each other, they don't like each other.
Analyzing the continued causes of racism is super important, like probably one of the most important things there is. Looking for those causes doesn't mean you are excusing the act.
Well saidMeanwhile Beto thinks issues are complicated, that's why we call them issues, and that y'all should stop, come together agree that issues are issues and that we have to address issues and that it takes a village, nay, a country to build the infrastructure to face head on the issues and it can't just be one man or one party, instead it must be a nation, a nation willing to issue a decree that the issues will be issued a notice that the issues have been put on notice, so that one day soon the issues won't be issues anymore and will instead by A New America For All
I posted this before, but I would love to see Era ban the use ofThis is how I constantly see discussions going here. Bernie supporters criticize other candidates, other supporters directly attacks Bernie supporters, Bernie supporters have to defend themselves, and then there are swipes on both sides. Like if we could stick to the candidates instead of random shitty supporters which are the vocal minority, all would be swell.
This is not what we're doing at all. It's not an absolution, it's an answer to "how do we lift these people/their kids out of the bigotry of their culture".I agree, which is why it's weird the Left ignores the actual causes, to blame capitalism and absolve white voters because those white voters are OK with socialism as long as it's socialism for them.
Maybe he might actually use the oppo research unlike Clinton in the primary
What are the "actual causes"?I agree, which is why it's weird the Left ignores the actual causes, to blame capitalism and absolve white voters because those white voters are OK with socialism as long as it's socialism for them.
Not really what he's saying. He's saying the structures of capitalism produce racism as the only alternative to the destabilizing of capitalism (through civil unrest or electoral reform). Capital needs a bogeyman to take the brunt of popular resentment, the foreign immigrant provides a convenient bogeyman, the foreign immigrant is also immigrating because their home has been exploited by capitalists.
It's not that socialism would magically cure racism but socialism doesn't need an external enemy to protect its power structures like capitalism does (except when socialist states degenerate into authoritarianism, but this is true of all authoritarian states). For one, there would be less economic refugees if we weren't constantly exploiting other countries to enrich ourselves. Two, politicians would bang the "foreign devils" drum less if they weren't in a position to directly profit off of it. Three, we can begin in earnest the long work of erasing racism from our culture once freed from private interests that benefit from the continuation of race antagonism.
I agree, which is why it's weird the Left ignores the actual causes, to blame capitalism and absolve white voters because those white voters are OK with socialism as long as it's socialism for them.
And I and others have agreed with this before. I don't believe the mod/s agree though or I imagine they would have chimed in, unless they just didn't see the discussion.I posted this before, but I would love to see Era ban the use of
-BernieBro
-Centrist as an attack
-Neolib as an attack
-Lib or liberal as a pejorative
-milquetoast as an attack on anyone who's not supporting Sanders
Let's stick to the candidates and issues and avoid personal attacks.
Not really what he's saying. He's saying the structures of capitalism produce racism as the only alternative to the destabilizing of capitalism (through civil unrest or electoral reform). Capital needs a bogeyman to take the brunt of popular resentment, the foreign immigrant provides a convenient bogeyman, the foreign immigrant is also immigrating because their home has been exploited by capitalists.
It's not that socialism would magically cure racism but socialism doesn't need an external enemy to protect its power structures like capitalism does (except when socialist states degenerate into authoritarianism, but this is true of all authoritarian states). For one, there would be less economic refugees if we weren't constantly exploiting other countries to enrich ourselves. Two, politicians would bang the "foreign devils" drum less if they weren't in a position to directly profit off of it. Three, we can begin in earnest the long work of erasing racism from our culture once freed from private interests that benefit from the continuation of race antagonism.
Meanwhile, Gillibrand's campaign is currently going up in flames
Good thing no one you quoted is arguing thatIn other words, everything will be fine when our magical pixie dust gets put into practice.
If we gave ti wait until "culture is freed from private interests" to start work on erasing racism and until then, we just have to deal with the racists and we can't call out their racism because it's all capitalism fault to pass socialist policies, then I'm out.
How about this, let people live and work where they want and if people vote for racists because of that, we call that out instead of absolving it.
The mindset of scarcity is what better represents what I'm talking about. The poll involved asking people of different financial backgrounds and the sample was of 4000+ people. And it makes a big difference where the sample came from. I will concede the point if those people came from the swing states where this occurred. Maybe it did, in which case I'm wrong.Sigh. The study I just posted pretty much refuted what you just said. I didn't pretend you were saying it automatically causes people to vote Trump, I categorically denied economic anxiety being a factor at all, whereas you clearly claim it was (without any source to back you up). Them voting trump was a result of Trump saying what they always wanted to hear anyway. It has nothing to do with economic anxiety, and all with deep rooted racism.
Meanwhile, Gillibrand's campaign is currently going up in flames
This is not what we're doing at all. It's not an absolution, it's an answer to "how do we lift these people/their kids out of the bigotry of their culture".
Do you want us to just kill them?
There isn't much to go up in flames there. More like a tiny poof.
We aren't talking about Trump's base, which is moderately wealthy 55 year olds who own ski rental shops in Des Moines. At least I'm not. I'm talking about the disenfranchised people that don't regularly vote in any capacity. That there are ways to win these people over using their economic self interest, and this group includes everybody not just miserable white people.Smart hire.
Not even to mention that Trump voter's being the more economically impoverished section of the population is flat out false. Trump voter's were the more economically stable demographic.
Literally nobody is absolving racist causes for these things. And nobody is suggesting that this is a "poof, no more racism" fix. That you have to begin with solving the issues at the heart of society to deal with the issue rather than desperately flailing at individual racists because it doesn't solve the systemic problems. You're flatly disingenuous at best.In other words, everything will be fine when our magical pixie dust gets put into practice.
If we gave ti wait until "culture is freed from private interests" to start work on erasing racism and until then, we just have to deal with the racists and we can't call out their racism because it's all capitalism fault to pass socialist policies, then I'm out.
How about this, let people live and work where they want and if people vote for racists because of that, we call that out instead of absolving it.
And how has that been working out for you? How does this solve the institutional racism in the police? Systemic racism in education?How about this, let people live and work where they want and if people vote for racists because of that, we call that out instead of absolving it.
I fail to see how changing the power structure that profits from and perpetuates racism and other bigotry is magical pixie dust while "calling out racists" is the concrete method to solve the systematic issues. How about we use the former to turn off the source of the fire, and then use the latter to put out the fires that remain?In other words, everything will be fine when our magical pixie dust gets put into practice.
If we gave ti wait until "culture is freed from private interests" to start work on erasing racism and until then, we just have to deal with the racists and we can't call out their racism because it's all capitalism fault to pass socialist policies, then I'm out.
How about this, let people live and work where they want and if people vote for racists because of that, we call that out instead of absolving it.
And how has that been working out for you? How does this solve the institutional racism in the police? Systemic racism in education?
Calling out does nothing without proactive reform. It's not that we think capitalist democracies CAN'T reform, it's that we think it's too SLOW and there's too many people being hurt in the meantime. Thinking your capitalist democracy will get better one day does not magically bring back all the brown people in developing countries we bombed/exploited to death.
Do you plan to just shame them into capitulation?In an effort to fight that trend, which has only gotten worse thanks to gentrification, rising income and wealth inequality throughout the city's five boroughs, schools on the Upper West Side—one of the wealthiest and whitest sections of Manhattan—are looking to adopt a plan that would require all local middle schools to reserve a quarter of their seats for students who score below grade level on state English and math tests.
The plan is designed to make Upper West Side schools more reflective of New York City's diverse demographics, and make sure underprivileged students have access to the sorts of advantages and resources that the neighborhood's well-funded schools can provide.
Well, that plan didn't go over so well in a room full of wealthy white parents.
Local TV station Spectrum News NY1 captured footage of a contentious meeting during which rich, white Manhattanites shouted, ranted and complained about the perceived disadvantages their children would face.
What the hell are you even talking about anymore. European nationalism is again, rooted in the disintegration of Europe's left and the resurgence of a strong right that backs itself using the left created welfare systems to craft their legitimacy while rambling about their enemies to divert focus from the actual causes of economic collapse. Which in principle is austerity measures and being beholden utterly to the IMF.All things considered, America's doing far better on race and such than Europe is, especially as we look at polling that shows majorities in virtually every single European country wants less immigration while a strong majority in America is currently OK with our current number or wants more immigration. Give me the nation where anybody can become part of the fabric of the nation in one generation, as opposed to Europe, where you can live in a nation for generations upon generations, and never be considered part of that nation.
We aren't talking about Trump's base, which is moderately wealthy 55 year olds who own ski rental shops in Des Moines. At least I'm not. I'm talking about the disenfranchised people that don't regularly vote in any capacity. That there are ways to win these people over using their economic self interest, and this group includes everybody not just miserable white people.
Literally nobody is absolving racist causes for these things. And nobody is suggesting that this is a "poof, no more racism" fix. That you have to begin with solving the issues at the heart of society to deal with the issue rather than desperately flailing at individual racists because it doesn't solve the systemic problems. You're flatly disingenuous at best.
I know some people think this, it's just not how I see it. The problem of "incrementalism" to me is speed, not plausibility.I do think capitalist democracies CAN'T reform in a way that allows racism to end, especially because they don't want to. The ruling class has every interest in keeping racial tensions up
Give me the nation where anybody can become part of the fabric of the nation in one generation
Concretely, how do you think "calling racists out" is going to, for example, fix economic segregation in urban environments like:
https://www.theroot.com/watch-room-filled-with-rich-white-nyc-parents-gets-bi-1825600194
Watch: Roomful of Rich, White NYC Parents Get Big Mad at Plan to Diversify Neighborhood's Schools
Do you plan to just shame them into capitulation?
Their power stems from their wealth. For the socialist, to challenge that wealth is to erode their power, and to erode their power is how we can save minority kids in the cities in the long term.
Good thing I didn't suggest any appeasement, you're tilting at windmills here.In shocking news, I think you can raise taxes, pass wealth taxes, and everything else, while also calling out racism and sexism in society and not appeasing 50-something former welders in Wisconsin who are scared of immigrants.
Also worth pointing out that reform is not just slow revolution, and revolution is not just fast reform. They have fundamentally different goals and complement one another in the development of society, but are still reciprocally exclusive.And how has that been working out for you? How does this solve the institutional racism in the police? Systemic racism in education?
Calling out does nothing without proactive reform. It's not that we think capitalist democracies CAN'T reform, it's that we think it's too SLOW and there's too many people being hurt in the meantime. Thinking your capitalist democracy will get better one day does not magically bring back all the brown people in developing countries we bombed/exploited to death. Radical change is necessary to end the meaningless sacrifice of lives now, lives being sacrificed in the name of maintaining the status quo.