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Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,544
I may misremembering correctly and maybe it's not even from the first book...but is renly not pretty damn different in the books? I'm a couple chapters into my first reread and I keep having flashbacks to lost memories of the book lol

Renly and Loras are both radically different. The show made them stereotypical caricatures, whereas they're three-dimensional people in the books — both vaunted tournament competitors and prime examples of Westerosi martiality.

After Renly's death, Loras doesn't take up the offensive stereotype of gay promiscuity, as in the show. Rather, he's so heartbroken he joins the celibate Kingsguard, and remarks to tyrion: "When the sun has set, no mere candle can replace it."
 
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Renly and Loras are both radically different. The show made them stereotypical caricatures, whereas they're three-dimensional people in the books — both vaunted tournament competitors and prime examples of Westerosi martiality.

After Renly's death, Loras doesn't begin immediately take up the offensive stereotype of gay promiscuity, as in the show. Rather, he's so heartbroken he joins the celibate Kingsguard, and remarks to tyrion: "When the sun has set, no mere candle can replace it."
I'm rewatching season 1 at the same time, which is an interesting excercise. When they brought up blood scares him I remember thinking "wait, isn't he a badass?"
 

Psychonaut

Member
Jan 11, 2018
3,207
I'll be on board for this. I picked up books 2 -4 from someone's stoop a few years ago, so I'll have to go out and buy the other individually. But I'm hankering for some solid writing.
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,456
I may misremembering correctly and maybe it's not even from the first book...but is renly not pretty damn different in the books? I'm a couple chapters into my first reread and I keep having flashbacks to lost memories of the book lol

Book Renly is an arrogant jackass who is also a badass fighter and super buff, basically a young Robert... but D&D couldn't fathom a gay dude being anything other than a girly wimp who hates fighting and is scared of blood. They also removed a lot of his nastier side, presumably to make him look better compared to Stannis (who they hated).
 
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Deleted member 40133

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Book Renly is an arrogant jackass who is also a badass fighter and super buff, basically a young Robert... but D&D couldn't fathom a gay dude being anything other than a girly wimp who hates fighting and is scared of blood. They also removed a lot of his nastier side, presumably to make him look better compared to Stannis (who they hated).

That's how I remember from the books, yeah. Yeah, fans should never be put in charge of things
 

greatgeek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,815
Book Renly is an arrogant jackass who is also a badass fighter and super buff, basically a young Robert... but D&D couldn't fathom a gay dude being anything other than a girly wimp who hates fighting and is scared of blood. They also removed a lot of his nastier side, presumably to make him look better compared to Stannis (who they hated).
My impression was that he never acquitted himself particularly well at tourneys, and he had no battlefield experience either. Renly was skilled more as a courtier/politician.
 

Lukar

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,431
I read the preview and I like how one of the notes mentioned how much time has passed between chapters. Does this happen fairly often? Either way this seems ideal for me. I stopped reading the books a few years ago because I couldn't keep track of everything that was going on and this seems like a decent solution.
I haven't read far enough to know for sure, but I think they only do that when a significant amount of time has passed since the previous chapter or the last time we saw the POV character. There's no such message at the beginning of Catelyn I, unless I missed it.
 

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My impression was that he never acquitted himself particularly well at tourneys, and he had no battlefield experience either. Renly was skilled more as a courtier/politician.

I distinctly remember him training against two swordsman instead of one and said it was because on the field most likely things will not be one to one. He has no battlefield experience, yes. But that's not something you can just get, there's needs to be a war or atleast a battle
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I could see people missing Loras and Renly were even gay in the books. It's pretty subtle, especially to someone just tearing through them on a first read/not having the show's versions of them coloring one's perception.
 

JasonV

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,967
I distinctly remember him training against two swordsman instead of one and said it was because on the field most likely things will not be one to one. He has no battlefield experience, yes. But that's not something you can just get, there's needs to be a war or atleast a battle

I thought that was Garlan; flower knights older, better bro.
 

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I could see people missing Loras and Renly were even gay in the books. It's pretty subtle, especially to someone just tearing through them on a first read/not having the show's versions of them coloring one's perception.

It was subtle, but I thought it was pretty obvious at the same time, if that makes sense. Although (again, 8 year memories), I feel they were careful to hide it from plainsight
 

greatgeek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,815
I distinctly remember him training against two swordsman instead of one and said it was because on the field most likely things will not be one to one. He has no battlefield experience, yes. But that's not something you can just get, there's needs to be a war or atleast a battle
I don't remember that. That Donal Noye quote about the Baratheon brothers, I thought, got to the nature of Renly's character:

Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.

Meaning, Renly only superficially embodies the hero-king ideal.
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,456
Remember when GRRM said the (vague ACOK spoilers) Rainbow Guard was in no way a reference to Renly being gay?
 

Dream Machine

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Oct 25, 2017
13,085
It was subtle, but I thought it was pretty obvious at the same time, if that makes sense. Although (again, 8 year memories), I feel they were careful to hide it from plainsight
Yes, this is hypothetical from me, since I had seen the first two seasons before starting the books. But I imagine I could miss the references if I weren't reading closely.

That's what is great about these books. They are good reads whether you are flying through them for the main plot, or savoring every detail and connecting the dots. Though I guess that's less so for the plot in 4 and 5, which is why those are more divisive.
 

Meows

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,399
Alright, I picked up some nice copies of the first two books and am eager to get started.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
Just finished Dany I.
So..err...I forgot how creepy some of the writing comes off when it comes to character descriptions lol.
 

tellNoel

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,254
Damn, I wish I would have brought my books back when I went to visit my hometown a couple weeks ago...
It would be nice to go through them again with everyone
 

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Yes, this is hypothetical from me, since I had seen the first two seasons before starting the books. But I imagine I could miss the references if I weren't reading closely.

That's what is great about these books. They are good reads whether you are flying through them for the main plot, or savoring every detail and connecting the dots. Though I guess that's less so for the plot in 4 and 5, which is why those are more divisive.

Five is a setup book for six, it feels like almost every (if not every) pov characters ends on a cliffhanger. With such a vast story and cast of characters, if you want to set things up it would take a whole book. Marti basically did what d&d didn't bother to do with the final season of game of thrones. Actually take the time to logically lay everything out, from world progression to character growth. Six is essentially the climax to five, the whole series needs to be taken as one long story not individual parts. Martin has said as much himself
 

Dream Machine

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Oct 25, 2017
13,085
Five is a setup book for six, it feels like almost every (if not every) pov characters ends on a cliffhanger. With such a vast story and cast of characters, if you want to set things up it would take a whole book. Marti basically did what d&d didn't bother to do with the final season of game of thrones. Actually take the time to logically lay everything out, from world progression to character growth. Six is essentially the climax to five, the whole series needs to be taken as one long story not individual parts. Martin has said as much himself
Agreed. I actually have no issues with 4 and 5 at all. I think the actual writing is better, even if they don't feel as propulsive as the first three. I like to just soak in the language and details. And all of that time world building is going to make the payoff so much more fulfilling
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,051
Remember when GRRM said the (vague ACOK spoilers) Rainbow Guard was in no way a reference to Renly being gay?

Which is more than believable,
in fact I never caught that till someone pointed it out on reddit. Afterall, the rainbow colors are sacred in ASOIAF as it's the colors of the Faith/Seven Pointed Star. Septons are supposed to carry crystal pendants that are supposed to reflect the colors of rainbow. The Warrior's Sons wear rainbow cloaks. And, the flag of the Faith is rainbow striped. Renly chose rainbow cloaks for his Kingsguard to honor the Seven.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
The first chapter is so good. It honestly feels cozy(?) to read the descriptions of the North, the summer snows and Bran's furs.
Eddard is amazing. This man's presence is felt immediately. Some of my favourite passages are from this chapter too.

"The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die."

So deep in thought was he that he never heard the rest of the party until his father moved up to ride beside him. "Are you well, Bran?" he asked, not unkindly.
"Yes, Father," Bran told him. He looked up. Wrapped in his furs and leathers, mounted on his great warhorse, his lord father loomed over him like a giant. "Robb says the man died bravely, but Jon says he was afraid."

"What do you think?" his father asked.

Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him.
 

AzorAhai

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,632
Ok so I'm done already, urgh.

I actually didn't remember the Others talking. But I'm really curious about GRR's plans, will he keep the show's explanations or add more depth to their motivations, which could either make them more interesting or less menacing. Loving the atmosphere anyway.

Yeah so Bran as a first chapter obviously. The scene that started it all, amazing. Given the show's ending, I will pay extra attention to his chapters. I don't even remember if he already had visions in the book, but I will be looking for Royal Clues haha.

Whaaat, I forgot Rickon is 3 years old, ouch. Keeping in mind the Stark children's ages will be hard. Also, I didn't remember such early and important name-droppings. Mance Rayder the King-Beyond-The-Wall, the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen, King Robert Baratheon, Prince Tommen, Lord Jon Arryn, Lord Hoster Tully and his brother Brynden, Maester Luwin, Maester Pycelle. And places like Casterly Rock and Valyria, damn.

Nothing to say here.

« In my dreams, I kill him every night ». Everything Robert is golden.

I'm soooo enjoying it. Can't wait for Jon's first chapter.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
Renly and Loras are both radically different. The show made them stereotypical caricatures, whereas they're three-dimensional people in the books — both vaunted tournament competitors and prime examples of Westerosi martiality.

After Renly's death, Loras doesn't take up the offensive stereotype of gay promiscuity, as in the show. Rather, he's so heartbroken he joins the celibate Kingsguard, and remarks to tyrion: "When the sun has set, no mere candle can replace it."


Renly was a vaunted tournament competitor? I don't remember ever reading that Renly was one of the realm's great fighters. He lost to the Hound in the Hand's tourney, there is no shame in that but it doesn't tell us he was great himself.

I thought Renly's strengths were his mastery of politics and friendliness with lords and common folk alike.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,051
Honestly, I'll probably finish my re-read of AGOT before this thread even gets to the first deadline. I'm a fast reader.
 

tellNoel

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,254
Theon saying that Ghost would die quicker than the others and Jon countering "I think not. This one's mine" honestly made me smile after knowing that Ghost is the only one confirmed to still be alive in the show end.

Makes that scene with Ghost and Jon during the last episode all that much more satisfying. Like a sorta "we did it, bud. We survived."
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,544
Renly was a vaunted tournament competitor? I don't remember ever reading that Renly was one of the realm's great fighters. He lost to the Hound in the Hand's tourney, there is no shame in that but it doesn't tell us he was great himself.

I thought Renly's strengths were his mastery of politics and friendliness with lords and common folk alike.

Well, it's Loras who was vaunted, but Renly was a regular and competent tournament competitor.

Point being, the show omitted his martial traits to further stereotype him. Loras was certainly the one they handled worse, though.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
Theon saying that Ghost would die quicker than the others and Jon countering "I think not. This one's mine" honestly made me smile after knowing that Ghost is the only one confirmed to still be alive in the show end.

Makes that scene with Ghost and Jon during the last episode all that much more satisfying. Like a sorta "we did it, bud. We survived."
Didn't think about this, got me in the feels ngl lmao
 

Deleted member 40133

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Well, it's Loras who was vaunted, but Renly was a regular and competent tournament competitor.

Point being, the show omitted his martial traits to further stereotype him. Loras was certainly the one they handled worse, though.
Agree completely. On a semi related point, that helm that Loras wore in the Hand's tourney. 7 hells, what was that? I assume it was just for tourneys, still hideous by any measure
 
Oct 27, 2017
21,545
Just finished Dany I.
So..err...I forgot how creepy some of the writing comes off when it comes to character descriptions lol.

Yeah, I forgot about the whole bath bit. It's kinda like "alrighty then..."

Did they do Ice justice in the show? I seem to recall Ned just had a regular sized sword instead of "wide across as a man's hand, and taller even than Robb"
 

Ryuelli

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,209
I'm interested.

A bit hesitate to read a series that potentially might never be finished, but might be fun to read none-the-less.
 

tellNoel

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,254
Did they do Ice justice in the show? I seem to recall Ned just had a regular sized sword instead of "wide across as a man's hand, and taller even than Robb"
honestly, Ice is pretty damn wide when compared to other swords in the show, so not depicting it exactly like the show doesnt bother me much. besides, swinging a sword like that in a believable way in combat might not be possible lol
 

Joeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,478
Remember when GRRM said the (vague ACOK spoilers) Rainbow Guard was in no way a reference to Renly being gay?
Not gonna lie, that went could completely over my head for nearly a decade until you just said it
It went over my head too until some previously mentioned dialogue in ASoS, that symbol has such real-world meaning that I didn't take it at face value in this world when reading it.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,051
Did they do Ice justice in the show? I seem to recall Ned just had a regular sized sword instead of "wide across as a man's hand, and taller even than Robb"


In the show, Ice is indeed huge. But, plainly adorned. Show version:

Damascus%20Ice%20On%20Plaque.jpg




This is what Ice is supposed to look like according to GRRM:

VS0003D%20retouched%20sword%20on%20plaque.jpg
 

Deleted member 40133

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Well, it's Loras who was vaunted, but Renly was a regular and competent tournament competitor.

Point being, the show omitted his martial traits to further stereotype him. Loras was certainly the one they handled worse, though.
Agree completely. On a semi related point, that helm that Loras wore in the Hand's tourney. 7 hells, what was that? I assume it was just for tourneys, still hideous by any measure
 
OP
OP
Lunar Wolf

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Theon saying that Ghost would die quicker than the others and Jon countering "I think not. This one's mine" honestly made me smile after knowing that Ghost is the only one confirmed to still be alive in the show end.

Makes that scene with Ghost and Jon during the last episode all that much more satisfying. Like a sorta "we did it, bud. We survived."

Oh shit you just made me realize that this is foreshadowing too:

"He must have crawled away from the others," Jon said.

"Or been driven away," their father said, looking at the sixth pup.


Seems like set up for Jon being driven away by the Starks (or crawling away from them).
 

sappyday

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,804
I bought the books so long ago but only read half of the first book. Im a change that and now I'm a few chapters in.
 

jay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,275
I'm the same. I read the books a long while ago, I watched the show up to Season 4 or 5, when the show started to overtake the books. I have been spoiled on some major things through Twitter and stuff, I'd prefer not to have anything more spoiled.

Ha, same. I think I saw up to 4. We will make our own reading club with hookers and blackjack.
 

Toiletduck

Member
Dec 10, 2017
1,341
Thanks for creating this thread – very much looking forward to rereading the series and commenting on the chapters.
 

Ryuelli

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,209
Are the dates in the OP the deadlines (so on 6/2 it will be okay to discuss those chapters), or are those the days we're expected to start those chapters?