Alfonso Ribeiro Sues Fortnite and NBA 2K Creators for Stealing Carlton Dance(Update: Backpack Kid sues Epic as well)

[Cokie Bear]

Just because they can do something on a technicality ("the dance move isn't long enough!") doesn't make it right.

It's blatantly obvious they are stealing things from other people, renaming them, claiming it for their own and making money off of it.

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This is sort of the point though, all dance moves are in some way 'stolen' because they're transformative. The Carlton, as said by Alfonso himself, is based on a dance move he saw other people using. Had they had their moves copyrighted, would he have been able to do that? How different does a move need to be before it's considered a 'new' move under copyright law? That's extremely hard to define and even harder to prove, and to be entirely honest I don't see how it benefits anyone.

Like I said, I'm on board with them not being allowed to simply mocap someone else and use their exact body movements, but that's very different than arguing that they shouldn't be able to use the dance in general.

 

[Cokie Bear]

That's not even remotely true dude. Last BP had one or two dances and they all were lame ones that no one uses. All the good dances are not in the BP.

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The arguments being presented here keep changing. Why does it matter if the dances are lame or popular? That's got nothing to do with what I said. Many (most?) of the dances released in battle passes (not just the current one) were based on dance moves that existed before fortnite. Something you deem to be unpopular should have the same legal standing as anything else being discussed here. What you call a 'good' dance means absolutely nothing when we're discussing should an individual dance move be subject to copyright laws.

 

[UltraMagnus]

This is sort of the point though, all dance moves are in some way 'stolen' because they're transformative. The Carlton, as said by Alfonso himself, is based on a dance move he saw other people using. Had they had their moves copyrighted, would he have been able to do that? How different does a move need to be before it's considered a 'new' move under copyright law? That's extremely hard to define and even harder to prove, and to be entirely honest I don't see how it benefits anyone.

Like I said, I'm on board with them not being allowed to simply mocap someone else and use their exact body movements, but that's very different than arguing that they shouldn't be able to use the dance in general.

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There's a big difference between being influenced by a dance and literally using it beat for beat, frame by frame.

Even in the Courtney Cox and Eddie Murphy examples, their movements and Carlton's movements are very distinct and different, the second "shimmy" part of the Carlton dance as far as I can tell is completely different from anything Cox or Murphy did.

In this case though there is no ambiguity here, Epic is literally using the dance frame by frame and putting a different title on it and claiming it as their own with a literal price tag slapped individually to it.

That's very disingenuous.

 

[Cokie Bear]

There's a big difference between being influenced by a dance and literally using it beat for beat, frame by frame.

Even in the Courtney Cox and Eddie Murphy examples, their movements and Carlton's movements are very distinct and different, the second "shimmy" part of the Carlton dance as far as I can tell is completely different from anything Cox or Murphy did.

In this case though there is no ambiguity here, Epic is literally using the dance frame by frame and putting a different title on it and claiming it as their own with a literal price tag slapped individually to it.

That's very disingenuous.

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I've alsready said I agree with you on the frame by frame part. That's not what the larger discussion here is about though.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Just because they can do something on a technicality ("the dance move isn't long enough!") doesn't make it right.

It's blatantly obvious they are stealing things from other people, renaming them, claiming it for their own and making money off of it.

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There's literally zero difference between what Fortnite does compared to the other examples above aside from the amount of money Fortnite makes. Some of those also have MTx attached to them. They aren't claiming it for their own, anyone who knows anything about pop culture knows what the reference is just like 90% of the other emotes.

 

[Kei-]

My biggest concern is how these people expect to prove that they were the first people to ever do that dance move, and that there is no evidence of anyone doing it before them. The milly rock, for example, is such a simple move that it seems likely that it has been captured on video by someone else before 2 milly popularised it.

And the backpack kid definitely doesn't have a case anymore since this video from 2011 has resurfaced and been popularised (don't now it's been posted in the thread already):

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In the case of the floss (or mashed potato lol) it's even tougher since you can only get it as part of the battle pass that included like 100 other items.

 

[krazen]

There's literally zero difference between what Fortnite does compared to the other examples above aside from the amount of money Fortnite makes. Some of those are also chargeable. They aren't claiming it for their own, anyone who knows anything about pop culture knows what the reference is just like 90% of the other emotes.

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That's no excuse, and imho kind of copping pleas, and funny enough the whole point. There's a difference in a AA level game throwing those frames in a random celebration emote then what Fornite is doing and most importantly the SCALE. There's a difference if you wanted to do a couple of cover songs at a bar vs pressing up records and doing a stadium tour with those songs.

Fortnite sells you pop culture: the character design is bright and cartoony, they've partnered with companies to the point i see Fortnite monopoly in stores, etc. The dances are a big part of it, and considering there's multiple lawsuits now, etc. My thing is I don't see why there's a disconnect (laws aside) as far as intellectual property is concerned on the board when we all clearly agree who the originators are of these dances for the most part as opposed to whatever fortnite calls em in game.

Just cause everyone is stealing doesnt make it right. Just becsuse the content creator is willing to let it slide up until they realize they are being abused monetarily doesnt mean they are wrong. Epic goal is like any other corp from Facebook to Apple, they are trying to get a buck outta ya by any means, and as cheaply on their end as possible.

 

[Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric]

So let's say he wins this lawsuit.

How, exactly, would they prove damages?

How much of Fortnite's revenue stream is, demonstrably, generated specifically because the Carlton dance is in there?

And how much money did he loose because Fortnite included his wacky little dance - a pop culture phenomenon from the 90's - as an emote (one of many) in a contemporary shooter? (A F2P shooter no less)

Again, do people really operate under the delusion that this game is generating such high amounts of revenue because of these throwaway pop culture emotes?

The only way I could see this making even a lick of sense would be if the emotes in question were something customers had to specifically pay for to access.

 

[Cokie Bear]

That's no excuse, and imho kind of copping pleas, and funny enough the whole point. There's a difference in a AA level game throwing those frames in a random celebration emote then what Fornite is doing and most importantly the SCALE. There's a difference if you wanted to do a couple of cover songs at a bar vs pressing up records and doing a stadium tour with those songs.

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The scale isn't relevant at all, let alone the most important thing. There are many bands who make a career entirely on doing cover songs and do tours and everything. Me First and the Gimme Gimmes being an obvious example. Copyright is black and white, either something is copyrighted or it isn't. The size of the company or the popularity of the game is completely irrrlevant.

 

[Crossing Eden]

That's no excuse, and imho kind of copping pleas, and funny enough the whole point. There's a difference in a AA level game throwing those frames in a random celebration emote then what Fornite is doing and most importantly the SCALE. There's a difference if you wanted to do a couple of cover songs at a bar vs pressing up records and doing a stadium tour with those songs.

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All of those games were financial successes. Just not as much as a success as Fortnite, something MANY games can't claim to be. Comparing a dance emote to stadium tour is actually a really good indication of how ridiculous the argument is. You wanna talk scale when the emote isn't even frequently available and they change the options on the store daily.

 

[OutofMana]

I was listening to the Bombcast and they touched up on the subject. Doesn't the show technically own the dance and not him?
They also mentioned that the backpack kid said he thought it was cool that the dance was in the game originally in some TMZ video where he was asked if he wanted $$. The loophole is that it's not a choreographed piece since it's so short right?

 

[tommy7154]

So is there any sympathy here to be had for backpack kid? If I legitimately created a dance that was copied and then sued, and then I see this kid who clearly did not come up with the dance was also suing, I'd be pissed that he's now making me look bad/like an idiot.

Edit: Of course 2 Milly and his dance will probably be laughed out of court...but still.

And a fake edit: Bottom line to me is that ALL of them who were copied should be sourced and credited. Why that isn't a thing is nuts to me. You credit your fucking sources. Even if 2 Milly snapped his fingers, if you copied it from him then give him the credit he deserves.

 

[BAN PUNCHER]

 

[Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric]

I was listening to the Bombcast and they touched up on the subject. Doesn't the show technically own the dance and not him?
They also mentioned that the backpack kid said he thought it was cool that the dance was in the game originally in some TMZ video where he was asked if he wanted $$. The loophole is that it's not a choreographed piece since it's so short right?

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That's a very interesting question because the reality is that everything he did with that character - including the dance - would technically belong to the company that produced the show.

They own the character Carlton and everything related to that character, even if Alfonso invented the dance while working on the show.

 

[KingM]

So let's say he wins this lawsuit.

How, exactly, would they prove damages?

How much of Fortnite's revenue stream is, demonstrably, generated specifically because the Carlton dance is in there?

And how much money did he loose because Fortnite included his wacky little dance - a pop culture phenomenon from the 90's - as an emote (one of many) in a contemporary shooter? (A F2P shooter no less)

Again, do people really operate under the delusion that this game is generating such high amounts of revenue because of these throwaway pop culture emotes?

The only way I could see this making even a lick of sense would be if the emotes in question were something customers had to specifically pay for to access.

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Many of the dances do have a fee or are part of bundles.

 

[Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric]

Many of the dances do have a fee or are part of bundles.

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If that's true and the courts decide a dance is protected by copyright then it would be a relatively easy thing for EPIC to break down the actual revenue generated by the emote and pay him accordingly.

The funny thing is, were that to happen, I don't think it would be the influx of wealth he assumes.

 

[Cripterion]

Epic are profiting off of something they didn't create. Jacked of $

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There's an argument to be had that It's a virtual dance, so you're telling me Epic aren't the ones who created it? Little Carlton actually went there and did the animation by himself?

Imo this virtual dance lawsuit is fucking stupid.

What if a popular comedian busts out the move during a stand up show, they have to ask him, or pay him off too?

 

[SolidSnakex]

That's a very interesting question because the reality is that everything he did with that character - including the dance - would technically belong to the company that produced the show.

They own the character Carlton and everything related to that character, even if Alfonso invented the dance while working on the show.

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It's notable that Epic apparently reached out to the company that owns Scrubs over Donald Faison's dance in it

Scrubs executive producer Bill Lawrence then pointed out Epic did enquire "for the legality of it" and that it was allowed because "it's just a character dancing", but Faison believes it's more than that.

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https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...aison-accuse-fortnite-of-stealing-dance-moves

 

[Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric]

2 Milly would seem to have a bit more of a case if they are actually selling his dance move for five bucks a pop.

I'd love to know how much money Epic has actually made off that emote.

But Alfonso...I'm almost positive he has no legal claim to the Carlton dance.

 

[Powdered Egg]

Get your money Black man. I hope Fortnite loses all these cases lol.

 

[TSM]

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So basically their attempts to copyright will fail, and they'll probably have to make their case based on Epic leveraging the artists themselves in some fashion to make the money. This is why Epic uses fake names for the dances so that neither the artist's names, brands nor trademarks are part of the reason the dances are selling.

 

[Chindogg]

So basically their attempts to copyright will fail, and they'll probably have to make their case based on Epic leveraging the artists themselves in some fashion to make the money. This is why Epic uses fake names for the dances so that neither the artist's names, brands nor trademarks are part of the reason the dances are selling.

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Yup. Which is why they won't give credit. It would be conceding that the move isn't theirs to sell.

 

[maty]

I think the only one that could have a case is the "Scrubs" dance because it is a sequence of dance moves making it a choreography but if they were allowed to use it they are in the clear. The rest are just "simple" movements.

If we thought about dance moves as music, I would consider them as harmony or chords. They are made of moving different parts of the body making a whole unit, just like notes make up a chord which can be as simple or complex as you want to.
You can make a song with only 2 chords (which would be difficult enough) and copyright that but you can not copyright the chords themselves nor the chord progression.
Some might say dance moves are more like a melody but even in that case I think it needs to be longer than 2-3-4 notes as I intepret this dance steps, at least in the case of the most simple ones.

Of course this is all my opinion, I don't know law and even if I did things always change. That doesn't change the fact that Epic is using this grey area to make lot of money and it would be great that they made a note/reference to where they copied ot took inspiration.

 

[TheGhost]

There's literally zero difference between what Fortnite does compared to the other examples above aside from the amount of money Fortnite makes. Some of those are also chargeable. They aren't claiming it for their own, anyone who knows anything about pop culture knows what the reference is just like 90% of the other emotes.

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Watching that clip, fortnite one of the poorest rendition of the dance to boot.

Imagine if he saw his dance has been used on all these games he probably doesn't even know exist.

This is definitely just because fortnite is big.

 

[Kinthey]

I had to laugh when I saw the new dance emote in Black Ops 4. Almost definitely just a coincidence but also almost feels like they went with the safest dance choreography imaginable

 

[TSM]

Yup. Which is why they won't give credit. It would be conceding that the move isn't theirs to sell.

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No, it would be banking on the name or original work of the people that popularized the dances. You can't just throw Snoop Dogg's name in your commercial game attached to an item for sale without some sort of contract without facing a law suit.

 

[Retro!]

As has been covered countless times in this thread, you can not copyright a dance move, social dances, simple routines, etc.
https://www.businessinsider.com/can-you-copyright-a-dance-move-2018-9?r=UK&IR=T
4:51 in the video, straight from a copyright lawyer.

You can only copyright choreographic works which consist of multiple steps, not just a simple step or two or something that an average general person can easily do.

The kind of dance moves that Milly and others are trying to copyright are too simple,t hey are literally building blocks from which you make a choreographic work upon, you can not copyright these. It's the same as allowing and author to copyright words/phrases/sentences. Can you imagine someone owning "Happily ever after" or "It was a dark and stormy night" and suing anyone else that used those in a book? Do you see how absurd that'd be?

If you allow simple dance moves you are going to open the floodgates where huge record companies will then contract to own all the dances which any artist signed with them does. Then they will in-turn enforce those copyrighted dances in full force EXACTLY like they do with their music/music videos. Go ahead and upload a current mainstream song or video to youtube, see what happens.

Now do you honestly think these record companies will sit idly by while people use copyrighted dance moves? Heck no, they will go after any and everyone that uses them.

These small time/up and coming artist will choose not to dance in their music videos for fear of being sued, because after so long the record companies will basically have a monopoly over so many basic dance moves (which are the building blocks of dancing in general) that the risk of accidentally using a random move could potentially open you up to being sued.

You'll end up having to license the rights to dance moves to dance in a music video or having to hire a lawyer to ensure your "new" dance move isn't already copyrighted. This is something that the "little" person will not be able to afford, so their choice will be:

1. Dance and hope you don't pull off a copyrighted dance move and then get sued for it.
2. Don't dance, ensure you don't risk getting sued.

Now I don't know about you, but music videos without dancing? That would suck.

I'm not sure how anyone can make this more clearer on WHY this is a bad thing for the "little" people. It's not about sticking up for Epic/a game (I think they should give credit for where they get those dances from), it's about not allowing things like this to be copyrighted because of what it would entail after that is allowed.

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It's not that you aren't being "clear", or more accurately put, elaborate.

It's that I don't think a lot of what you're saying is based in reality.

because it won't be the little guys that are copyrighting all the dances moves if this happens

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People keep bringing this back to dance copyright which I think isn't the full perspective on what's being challenged here. The dance emotes are skirting the line of referencing the people themselves

but I mean I don't see how that could be worse than big companies making millions of dollars off of stealing their work without any compensation or contact, which is the current situation. and I don't buy the idea that all that they should just have to hold that because it supposedly would be way worse for them if....the law supported their claim? That's what it seems like you guys are saying

 

[TSM]

It's not that you aren't being "clear", or more accurately elaborate.

It's that I don't think a lot of what you're saying is based in reality.

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You might want to fix that quote. It wasn't me who said all of that.

 

[Retro!]

Really sorry. I really hate the multiquote function on this site lol

 

[TheMadTitan]

There's literally zero difference between what Fortnite does compared to the other examples above aside from the amount of money Fortnite makes. Some of those also have MTx attached to them. They aren't claiming it for their own, anyone who knows anything about pop culture knows what the reference is just like 90% of the other emotes.

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All of the examples, except for Destiny, TF2, Fornite, and Uncharted 4 aren't the same dance. It's a clear and obvious homage, but it's not the same. Doom's is slower, League shouldn't even be on the list, and Watch Dogs has similar but different swings and foot placement.

The former four titles are essentially 1:1 copies, from how the arms swing, to how the knees and feet twist along the floor in comparison to the original dance, like they just rotoscoped Fresh Prince episodes with their modeling rigs and sold them. That's the issue, and the fact that they've been selling them with no credit toward the original source whatsoever.

 

[Siggy-P]

That's a very interesting question because the reality is that everything he did with that character - including the dance - would technically belong to the company that produced the show.

They own the character Carlton and everything related to that character, even if Alfonso invented the dance while working on the show.

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I was listening to the Bombcast and they touched up on the subject. Doesn't the show technically own the dance and not him?
They also mentioned that the backpack kid said he thought it was cool that the dance was in the game originally in some TMZ video where he was asked if he wanted $$. The loophole is that it's not a choreographed piece since it's so short right?

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Well his case is built on the premise that they're profiting off his likeness. So the argument is that EPIC aren't making the money off the dance, they're making it off of people associating the dance with Carlton, and by extension Alfonso.

"Twenty-seven years later, The Dance remains distinctive, immediately recognizable, and inextricably linked to Ribeiro's identity, celebrity, and likeness," the lawsuits reads."

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ortnite-developer-over-the-carlton-dance/amp/

"likeness" being the important key word here.

 

[Resilient]

There's an argument to be had that It's a virtual dance, so you're telling me Epic aren't the ones who created it? Little Carlton actually went there and did the animation by himself?

Imo this virtual dance lawsuit is fucking stupid.

What if a popular comedian busts out the move during a stand up show, they have to ask him, or pay him off too?

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There is a difference between incorporating a 5 second dance as part of an hour long set VS buying an emote of the dance for use in game. And you know it. Lol

 

[Stiler]

I had to laugh when I saw the new dance emote in Black Ops 4. Almost definitely just a coincidence but also almost feels like they went with the safest dance choreography imaginable

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That's a pop culture reference as well,

It's not that you aren't being "clear", or more accurately put, elaborate.

It's that I don't think a lot of what you're saying is based in reality.

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So you honestly think that record labels would sit idly by and let people use copyrighted dance moves and not sue them? I mean the same people that sued grandma's for downloading songs on the internet? The same type of people that went after The Verve because they used "too much of a sample" (a sample they legally licensed) and then went after not 50% of the cut as they originally said but 100% of it after they saw how huge it was becoming?

Ok then, keep believing these huge corporations would just leave money on the table and let people use their copyrighted dance moves for free.

 

[UltraMagnus]

Watching that clip, fortnite one of the poorest rendition of the dance to boot.

Imagine if he saw his dance has been used on all these games he probably doesn't even know exist.

This is definitely just because fortnite is big.

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It looks like Fortnite devs literally copied 1:1 Riberio's rendition of the dance from the Graham Norton show. That's probably the exact reference clip they used.

This is basically 1:1

 

[Akira86]

That's a very interesting question because the reality is that everything he did with that character - including the dance - would technically belong to the company that produced the show.

They own the character Carlton and everything related to that character, even if Alfonso invented the dance while working on the show.

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I wouldn't even make a guess on whether Alfonso Rebeiro, professional dancer for 40 years, with some acting sprinkled in, has a claim to his dances. I wouldn't even be surprised if he contractually protected them.

 

[TheGhost]

It looks like Fortnite devs literally copied 1:1 Riberio's rendition of the dance from the Graham Norton show. That's probably the exact reference clip they used.

This is basically 1:1

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Yeah, some of the dances they showed in the other games captured more of the young Carlton dance with the throw of the head.

 

[Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric]

I wouldn't even make a guess on whether Alfonso Rebeiro, professional dancer for 40 years, with some acting sprinkled in, has a claim to his dances. I wouldn't even be surprised if he contractually protected them.

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Knowing what I do about the entertainment industry, I can almost guarantee that didn't happen, especially twenty (plus) years ago.

 

[TheUnseenTheUnheard]

Everyone with a dance in the game should join up in this lawsuit. You shouldn't be able to monetize dances made by other people. They should be allowed to be freely used though.

 

[Dynamite Cop]

Ugh, everyone posting examples of the first part of the dance being in multiple other games, however, the Fortnite version of the dance has the additional part of the dance Carlton did on the show.

Also, did flossing really start with that annoying kid? Is he the one to blame?

 

[Retro!]

So you honestly think that record labels would sit idly by and let people use copyrighted dance moves and not sue them? I mean the same people that sued grandma's for downloading songs on the internet? The same type of people that went after The Verve because they used "too much of a sample" (a sample they legally licensed) and then went after not 50% of the cut as they originally said but 100% of it after they saw how huge it was becoming?

Ok then, keep believing these huge corporations would just leave money on the table and let people use their copyrighted dance moves for free.

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I think comparing it to music and media isn't the best one to make as that's literally copying and sharing someone's work without paying them for it.

It's more comparable to IP like characters. There are artists who sell artwork of characters owned by companies, as well as people who cosplay as characters and create and sell costumes of them, without any interference from the huge companies that actually own the characters, because it would be stupid of them to actually do so.

If you want to stick to the music example, it's more equivalent to cover bands than sharing illegal downloads of albums

Copyright law is mostly bad, but it doesn't exist to oppress individuals. It exists to prevent companies, big or small, from copying and selling your IP themselves without your consent.

And that's what Ribeiro is trying to achieve here. Fortnite is basically using the dance associated with his likeness based on its association with the show he popularized it on, and making money hand over fist off of it without even so much as a credit given to him. I don't see how you seem to think him winning out here would open the door to more abuse from large companies when it would mean the opposite. It would mean Fortnite would actually have to consult and probably compensate the actual people behind all the dances they're selling.

 

[Cordy]

Blocboy sees all of this going on and he's finally going on the crusade Chance the Rapper brought up. He's ready to officially jump in. Thanks Alfonso.

Get ya money!!!!!

 

[YuSuzzune]

With all those lawsuits, I don't know if Gamestop did this on purpose:

https://vincicongamestop.it/

It's hilarious anyway :D

 

[Deleted member 21326]

sorry thread has moved fast, has this been posted ?

 

[JayBee]

Fortnite making millions of off discrediting others ain't really cool imo. Hope they'll find ways to credit those them apropriatly

 

[witchedwiz]

It's in Saints Row as well. That dance is everywhere. I'm surprised he waited this long.

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Because... money?
And stupidity I guess.. trademarking dance moves...
What an unbelievable timeline..

 

[Bansai]

Didn't the backpack kid steal the dance himself?



24 sec

sorry thread has moved fast, has this been posted ?

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Lmao, I guess this is also the case with the carlton dance haha.

Ok, looks like TMZ is trying to stir shitstorm by TMZ as usual being scum of the earth.

 

[Philly Cheesesteak]

sorry thread has moved fast, has this been posted ?

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Lol TMZ is so scummy. He said he got the idea from watching Courtney do it and added his own flair to it. Even if you watch both dances, they are in no way the same thing. Leave it up to shitty ass TMZ to try and stir the pot.

 

[ClickyCal']

Didn't the backpack kid steal the dance himself?



24 sec



Lmao, I guess this is also the case with the carlton dance haha.

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Actually those guys stole it from this.

 

[LDNStateOfMind]

Didn't the backpack kid steal the dance himself?



24 sec



Lmao, I guess this is also the case with the carlton dance haha.

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No, he can still have a case (around 4:30 in)

 

[Bansai]

Actually those guys stole it from this.

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HOW DEEP DOES THE CONSPIRACY GO!?

Either way, it's ridiculous that the backpack kid or his mom is suing Epic for something they CLEARLY did not invent.