American journalists are going after Omar Ilhan again

[caliph95]

Am I going crazy the headline made it sound like unintentionally or not were accusing Jews of du loyalty but her actual comments

Later she stated, "I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country."

Click to shrink...

Which seems she was talking about lobbying to me like she did before but nowhere did it mention the dual loyalty trope

But then this shit

This is much worse. Accusing Jews of "allegiance to a foreign country" is a historically classic way of delegitimizing their participation in the political system.

Click to shrink...

Mr Fantastic somewhere is jealous

The dual loyalty is the articles putting words in her mouth and I get the fear of Jews being accused of evil masterminds bent on ruling the word. This still seems like making her words worse than it is

 

[Kirblar]

Am I going crazy the headline made it sound like unintentionally or not were accusing Jews of du loyalty but her actual comments

Click to shrink...

You are not. There's a massive misrepresentation of the context of her comments in the articles using the quote. Which is why you don't see any Dems upset like a week ago.

 

[anamika]

You are not. There's a massive misrepresentation of the context of her comments in the articles using the quote. Which is why you don't see any Dems upset like a week ago.

Click to shrink...

There was no reason to be upset last week either.

 

[Kirblar]

There was no reason to be upset last week either.

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Clearly, a number of people differed with your opinion.

 

[Deleted member 8593]

So if Ilhan Omar criticizes Israel using snide remarks she's anti-semitic and if she criticizes Israel using facts and measured language she's also anti-semitic.

 

[Kirblar]

So if Ilhan Omar criticizes Israel using snide remarks she's anti-semitic and if she criticizes Israel using facts and measured language she's also anti-semitic.

Click to shrink...

There exists a right wing attack group that will call anythign anti-semitic. Just like they call any Democratic proposals "socialist".

The critical mistake is to take them seriously and/or to assume their motivations are shared with anyone ever bringing up anti-semitism. If you do that, you have already lost because theyre a stopped clock. They had been pulling this shit for months with nothing sticking until the incident last week because there was a real issue there with the initial tweet and then the compounding bad RT of an upset critic. Which is why Dems were upset, Omar apologized, and people moved on. And it's why now, with another bad faith attack like the previous ones, Dems are more upset about the horrific islamophobic WV shit than this, which they're basically ignoring and trying to avoid signal boosting.

 

[anamika]

Clearly, a number of people differed with your opinion.

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As they do here. So? She said nothing wrong last week and she said nothing wrong this week. Spineless democrats sucking up to AIPAC and throwing Omar under the bus last week does not mean that there was anything problematic in what she said.

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

As they do here. So? She said nothing wrong last week and she said nothing wrong this week. Spineless democrats sucking up to AIPAC and throwing Omar under the bus last week does not mean that there was anything problematic in what she said.

Click to shrink...

That was not what occurred, there is more nuance to anti-semitism than your definitions.

 

[Kirblar]

As they do here. So? She said nothing wrong last week and she said nothing wrong this week. Spineless democrats sucking up to AIPAC and throwing Omar under the bus last week does not mean that there was anything problematic in what she said.

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They are not the same people.

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

They are not the same people.

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This.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I mean, what would the correct term be to describe politicians who passed the bill designed to criminilize their own citizens and override their first amendment rights for taking part in a boycott movement against a foreign government?

 

[anamika]

They are not the same people.

Click to shrink...

I am not sure I understand. Again, Omar said nothing wrong in talking about the role money plays in these lobbies including AIPAC. Dems being heated because she dared criticize AIPAC is nothing new.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

Not all Israeli hawks are Jews, MANY Jews are not Israeli hawks, and Israeli hawks are ABSOLUTELY loyal to a foreign country, to the point of allowing public American institutions to boycott other Americans, but trying to enforce prison sentences for private individuals who do the same to a foreign country. Their want for an Islamophobic, Apartheid nuclear rogue state that supposedly shares their interests really makes them betray their own country.

 

[OtherWorldly]

Her own party going after her now



It's getting pretty clear that even the democrats are full of islamophobes , xenophobes, racists and sexists

 

[sirap]

So much for dems not joining in on the dogpile.

Disgusting behavior, but if you're supportive of Israel on this matter you're probably a shithole anyway.

 

[Deleted member 8257]

Her own party going after her now



It's getting pretty clear that even the democrats are full of islamophobes , xenophobes, racists and sexists

Click to shrink...

Here we go again. Fucking despicable shitbags, in both parties.

 

[M.Bluth]

Wrong.

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Eh, you've already been proven wrong by the absurd narrative at play on this story, and I don't have time to waste with you when I know everything you'll say can be distilled to "mind your tongue, you shouldn't be rude while getting murdered."

Her own party going after her now



It's getting pretty clear that even the democrats are full of islamophobes , xenophobes, racists and sexists

Click to shrink...

This is why we told you, you shouldn't have let their previous attacks fly and support her detractors, it will never stop no matter what she says or do. They're terrified of a black Muslim woman in Congress possibly displaying the tiniest suspicion of US foreign policy. Their goal was to always remove her.

But hey don't make me stop y'all from helping them.

 

[Cyanity]

And oh hey, guess what? We're not having the debate of what is happening in Palestine because we're busy debating whether she's anti-Semitic.

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It's so unbelievably frustrating that we have to deal with this bullshit year in and year out for any criticism of Israel's regime. Unfortunately, I think the only thing that can break this cycle is a left-wing president who is willing to stand up to Israel.

edit - it's also incredibly disheartening to see posters on this forum agreeing with the journalists here

 

[FaceHugger]

We Democrats need to stop letting our party officials malign every single criticism of Israel and its lobbyists as anti semitic. It's tiring and IMO un-American.

 

[anamika]

They are not the same people.

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So looks like the democrats have attacked her now for this comment as well.

So what happens now to your 'She was wrong before because dems criticized her' argument? Is she wrong now as well ?

 

[sirap]

We Democrats need to stop letting our party officials malign every single criticism of Israel and its lobbyists as anti semitic. It's tiring and IMO un-American.

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True, but they balance that out by disparaging and shitting on a black, muslim woman.

That's American as fuck.

 

[PMS341]

Clearly, a number of people differed with your opinion.

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A number of people who are willing to throw out all of their integrity and honesty for:

A) A chance to defend an apartheid state that literally shoots children, and
B) A chance to attack a Black Muslim Woman.

That's really all there is to it.

 

[FaceHugger]

True, but they balance that out by disparaging and shitting on a black, muslim woman.

That's American as fuck.

Click to shrink...

Then we should make that practice un-American. Hell, her constituents voted her in. If the actual American voters, by and large, truly had a problem with blacks or muslims or women the Democratic House wouldn't be so diverse, and Obama would never have been elected. It's our officials by and large (and the media) who are the problem.

 

[danm999]

Reveals the whole optics conversation is a bullshit patina, even if you word a criticism of Israel perfectly you'll be accused of anti semitism.

They'll just replace your words with worse ones.

 

[kingkaiser]

You have to give her credit, though, she is masterful in using the dog whistle, could make it far in politics.

 

[OtherWorldly]

You have to give her credit, though, she is masterful in using the dog whistle, could make it far in politics.

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What do you mean using the dog whistle . She means to be antisemitic ?

 

[kingkaiser]

What do you mean using the dog whistle . She means to be antisemitic ?

Click to shrink...

 

[Dude Abides]

You are not. There's a massive misrepresentation of the context of her comments in the articles using the quote. Which is why you don't see any Dems upset like a week ago.

Click to shrink...

This aged well.

 

[Typhonsentra]

Reveals the whole optics conversation is a bullshit patina, even if you word a criticism of Israel perfectly you'll be accused of anti semitism.

They'll just replace your words with worse ones.

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The people tone policing are still avoiding the obvious question too: What would "Appropriate" criticism of AIPAC or US-Israeli policy look like if what she said is out of line?

The fact that there is still no answer to this question tells you what you need to know about their intentions.

 

[junomars]

Her own party going after her now



It's getting pretty clear that even the democrats are full of islamophobes , xenophobes, racists and sexists

Click to shrink...

It's amazing how she is proven right everytime. In the week that Israel gets cited for possible war crimes by the UN, US lawmakers choose to clutch their pearls and gas light someone who dares be critical.

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

Eh, you've already been proven wrong by the absurd narrative at play on this story, and I don't have time to waste with you when I know everything you'll say can be distilled to "mind your tongue, you shouldn't be rude while getting murdered."

Click to shrink...

WTF. Nobody's proven me wrong. You're acting as if there isn't norms in politics and culture about being very clear about sloppily angering people over racist tropes, and that all we're disagreeing about is tactics against stopping AIPAC.

How is Omar stopping anything, any way? She's getting a message across, sure, but she's not exactly wounding AIPAC or Israel here, instead it's having the opposite affect by destroying her credibility all because she's going after them sloppily.

I'm with you against stopping AIPAC but the plan needs to be more having American politicians destroy their careers with language which can be misread as anti-Semitism. How is this helping your cause, exactly?

Did you see this?



This is how to do it right. Get the jab in, racist explodes and implicates themselves while adhering to protocols so you don't get disciplined from the party and win in the press.

Theres a lot on the line if this continues with Omar, do you want her to get censured? How would she be helping anybody then?

Fight smart, not sloppily.

This is why we told you, you shouldn't have let their previous attacks fly and support her detractors, it will never stop no matter what she says or do.

Click to shrink...

True, which is why of us none of care what they think. It's about what Democrats think, who are arguing in good faith. Because phrasing matters in regards to this delicate subject. There is more going on than simply Israel/AIPAC bad and Omar good.

They're terrified of a black Muslim woman in Congress possibly displaying the tiniest suspicion of US foreign policy. Their goal was to always remove her.

But hey don't make me stop y'all from helping them.

Click to shrink...

That's what we've been trying to do, but you're insisting on continuing mistakes which will end up with that result because making anti-semitic looking comments is frowned upon in the US in Democratic circles.

I am not sure I understand. Again, Omar said nothing wrong in talking about the role money plays in these lobbies including AIPAC. Dems being heated because she dared criticize AIPAC is nothing new.

Click to shrink...

Your ignoring the argument being made here, as if all there is to is a black and white representation of anti-semitism when that's near been the case. There is more to it than bad faith criticism of anti-semitism.

 

[Deleted member 5359]

The "journalists" in question are on someone's payroll.

And the Dem party is weak af for failing to support her.

Meanwhile, Northam is still governor of VA and nobody says shit.

This is pathetic on so many levels

 

[TheTyrant]

It's amazing how she is proven right everytime. In the week that Israel gets cited for possible war crimes by the UN, US lawmakers choose to clutch their pearls and gas light someone who dares be critical.

Click to shrink...

Yup, it is so blatant that you can't help but laugh in despair. Tragicomical

 

[Typhonsentra]

WTF. Nobody's proven me wrong. You're acting as if there isn't norms in politics and culture about being very clear about sloppily angering people over racist tropes, and that all we're disagreeing about is tactics against stopping AIPAC.

How is Omar stopping anything, any way? She's getting a message across, sure, but she's not exactly wounding AIPAC or Israel here, instead it's having the opposite affect by destroying her credibility all because she's going after them sloppily.

I'm with you against stopping AIPAC but the plan needs to be more having American politicians destroy their careers with language which can be misread as anti-Semitism. How is this helping your cause, exactly?

Did you see this?



This is how to do it right. Get the jab in, racist explodes and implicates themselves while adhering to protocols so you don't get disciplined from the party and win in the press.

Theres a lot on the line if this continues with Omar, do you want her to get censured? How would she be helping anybody then?

Fight smart, not sloppily.



True, which is why of us none of care what they think. It's about what Democrats think, who are arguing in good faith. Because phrasing matters in regards to this delicate subject. There is more going on than simply Israel/AIPAC bad and Omar good.



That's what we've been trying to do, but you're insisting on continuing mistakes which will end up with that result because making anti-semitic looking comments is frowned upon in the US in Democratic circles.



Your ignoring the argument being made here, as if all there is to is a black and white representation of anti-semitism when that's near been the case. There is more to it than bad faith criticism of anti-semitism.

Click to shrink...

Why are you still ignoring the question of what valid criticism of AIPAC should look like? Why can you not answer this? Point out a single example which was not labeled as antisemitic.

 

[manchego obfuscator]

Anti-Semitic tropes that should be avoided:

Jews control the media - so don't criticize the media's overwhelming bias towards Israel.
Jews control all the money - so don't criticize the influence of political donations in generating support for Israel (i.e. all about the Benjamins).
Jews have dual-loyalty - so don't criticize any efforts to undermine the Constitution to criminalize opposition to Israel.
Jews partake in "blood libel" - so don't criticize the Israelis overwhelming use of violence against Palestinians for decades.

As long as you avoid discussing the media, money, politics, and violence, you're safe in advocating for Palestinian rights. Otherwise, you're skirting too close to those Anti-Semitic tropes and you might offend the people who maybe someday will finally use their privilege to speak up for your rights.

Oh but also, if pro-Israel Jews use these tropes, it's ok because they're said in the proper context, but if Jewish critics of Israel use them, they're self-hating Jews who have been radicalized by the Palestinians and the far left.

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all this. It's deeply offensive to me as a Jew that we get treated as a pro-Israel hivemind and that only the voices of those of us who *do* perceive antisemitism in [insert criticism of Israel here] are seen as legitimate.

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

Why are you still ignoring the question of what valid criticism of AIPAC should look like? Why can you not answer this? Point out a single example which was not labeled as antisemitic.

Click to shrink...

Because regardless of what I say you won't accept it. Good faith criticism of anti-Semitic language from Democrats has been dismissed and ignored by your side for a long time and it's not going to change any time soon. One poster erased Jewish Dems concerns when I bought them up, too. Yet none of you said anything to support that stance, but I'm supposed to take your word for it that you'r standing up for minorities in the party? This isn't as simple situation as you think, as other posters like Kirblar has explained and the gap between our two sides isn't as far as you (or others) think, either. We are not the enemy.

 

[manchego obfuscator]

Her own party going after her now



It's getting pretty clear that even the democrats are full of islamophobes , xenophobes, racists and sexists

Click to shrink...

She's going to get her committee seats stripped for this. Fuck this party.

 

[Typhonsentra]

Because regardless of what I say you won't accept it. Good faith criticism of anti-Semitic language from Democrats has been dismissed and ignored by your side for a long time and it's not going to change any time soon. One poster erased Jewish Dems concerns when I bought them up, too. Yet none of you said anything to support that stance, but I'm supposed to take your word for it that you'r standing up for minorities in the party? This isn't as simple situation as you think, as other posters like Kirblar has explained and the gap between our two sides isn't as far as you (or others) think, either. We are not the enemy.

Click to shrink...

The problem here is that you in fact ARE being dishonest. You are presenting yourself as being concerned merely with tone or specifics in what she said when in reality that is not the case. You have established in this thread that you would have the same reaction to any mention of AIPAC being singled out negatively. So yes, what you are saying versus what we are saying is fundamentally different. There are plenty examples of anti-Semitism on the left, including here, of which I have called out in the past but that is not an excuse to deflect on this issue.

 

[Snowy]

This is why nobody should have given ANY quarter to the previous accusation. Even the good faith criticisms were obviously dumb and wrong and not deserving of redress (sorry AOC, you DO have to dismiss people being offended sometimes), and the vast majority were chuckleheads like Ben Shapiro who live in a rhetorically nihilistic abyss.

Don't do evil peoples' job for them just because you want to be a do-gooder. THIS is exactly how identity politics, construed broadly, can actually undermine Left solidarity. That's not to say identity politics are ipso facto illegitimate, but there has been a total suspension of skepticism and critical thinking on these issues on the Left that will bite us in the ass.

 

[manchego obfuscator]

It's about what Democrats think, who are arguing in good faith.

Click to shrink...

the idea that Engel, who is so zealously pro-Israel that he opposed the Iran deal, is arguing in good faith here is utterly ludicrous

This is why nobody should have given ANY quarter to the previous accusation. Even the good faith criticisms were obviously dumb and wrong and not deserving of redress (sorry AOC, you DO have to dismiss people being offended sometimes), and the vast majority were chuckleheads like Ben Shapiro who live in a rhetorically nihilistic abyss.

Click to shrink...

yup. It is impossible to have an actual debate on Israel if you allow any allegation of antisemitism that seems sincere to dictate the boundaries. Sometimes my fellow Jews are just wrong, or at least not so objectively correct that their views on permissible speech should be taken as gospel

 

[M.Bluth]

WTF. Nobody's proven me wrong.

Click to shrink...

Your entire narrative is that it'd be okay if she just chose her words better, but it doesn't seem that anything she says is ever acceptable, because even this time you're going after her when what she said was uncontroversial.

I'm with you against stopping AIPAC but the plan needs to be more having American politicians destroy their careers with language which can be misread as anti-Semitism. How is this helping your cause, exactly?

Click to shrink...

Are you? Because I don't believe you. You're still unwilling to come up with your definition of "acceptable" criticism of Israel and AIPAC. And I'm not surprised. Past threads have really hammered home to me what you think all this is: A fucking game.

No matter what you say you reveal yourself over and over again that what you truly believe would be the solution is just pretty, perfect words.
You know, because that's how Martin Luther King did it! He made a gorgeous speech and the racists cried, and racism was over. We won!

Your use of Tlaib as an example of "doing it right" is pretty ironic, btw, considering they tried to do the exact same thing against her. Nevermind that the only reason you find what she did in that video acceptable is because she went after a white racist, thankfully an approved target for attack by centrists... Otherwise you'd tar and feather her had she done the same to hammer home an anti-Israel point.

True, which is why of us none of care what they think. It's about what Democrats think, who are arguing in good faith. Because phrasing matters in regards to this delicate subject. There is more going on than simply Israel/AIPAC bad and Omar good.

Click to shrink...

Here's a final thought. Next time the Israeli-Palestinian conflict comes up, try to actually spare the children losing their homes, their families, their dignity and their rights a few seconds of your time. Think about them before you worry about what the bad-faith propaganda of an oppressive white supremacist regime has financed to forbid criticism and consequence.

 

[Pata Hikari]

bad faith nonsense

Click to shrink...

That's not a dog whistle and you know it.

 

[Deleted member 8463]

Weeks have passed and this still isn't a dogwhistle.

Meanwhile

 

[Jeb]

Weeks have passed and this still isn't a dogwhistle.

Meanwhile

Click to shrink...

Depresing, but I'm sure agood chunck of people here still want to talk about tone policing instead.

This woman is brave.
Once in a blue moon, there comes a politician you can actually respect.

 

[Kirblar]

This aged well.

Click to shrink...

Opposing the Iran deal kinda made your feelings ignorable here. A tenth of the caucus came out upset w the prior incident.

This is why nobody should have given ANY quarter to the previous accusation. Even the good faith criticisms were obviously dumb and wrong and not deserving of redress (sorry AOC, you DO have to dismiss people being offended sometimes), and the vast majority were chuckleheads like Ben Shapiro who live in a rhetorically nihilistic abyss.

Don't do evil peoples' job for them just because you want to be a do-gooder. THIS is exactly how identity politics, construed broadly, can actually undermine Left solidarity. That's not to say identity politics are ipso facto illegitimate, but there has been a total suspension of skepticism and critical thinking on these issues on the Left that will bite us in the ass.

Click to shrink...

This is wrong. Addressing legitimate fuckups (which the tweet plus RT combo certainly was on some level) is not a sign of weakness in the least. Left solidarity that tramples constituent groups concerns is worthless trash.

 

[Chikor]

Your belief that non-white people in the US can't possibly be anti-semitic is statement totally at odds with reality. It's not just a white majority thing, even though the majority of people with those views will be white because they're the majority. Just because you aren't feeling threatened doesn't mean that those beliefs aren't harmful, that letting them go unchallenged is not a problem, that trying to increase understanding isn't necessary. The beliefs are what breeds the violence. Allowing the conspiracy theories to spread with no pushback, allowing them to run unchecked, that's what will inevitably erupt if you don't fight it.

Click to shrink...

Where the fuck did I say non white people can't be antisemite?
For real, why can't you argue about what I'm saying?
Let me repeat again, so I'm clear -
I don't think Ilhan Omar is an antisemite and I have not seen any serious evidence that she is.
Further more, I do not believe the Democratic party in general and social democrats in particular is an engine of antisemitism in this country, in fact, I believe they are my strongest allies in that fight.
In fact, I think every single one of those attacks were bad faith attacks by people who want to Both Sides racism and kill any attempt to have a discussion about Israel (that seem to be working, because once again, only 2 days ago a UN commission said "Israeli snipers shot at journalists, health workers, children and persons with disabilities, knowing they were clearly recognizable as such", and we can't be talking about that, right?).

I still don't understand why of even if you think she's racist, and I really don't understand how any of that shit is supposed in incite violence.
And what beliefs are we talking about exactly?
The beliefs that you can criticize Israel? because I don't think those are really all that harmful.

You have been spending a whole lot of time an effort trying to show how even thought Kevin McCarthy will call every single Muslim or a critic of Israel and antisemite, we should all give him the benefit of the doubt that might just have a point in this particular case.
Why are you being more charitable to Kevin McCarthy and Jonathan Chait than Ilhan Omar?

 

[OtherWorldly]

.

Click to shrink...

Wait... you thought that was antisemitic ? Why are folks so keen on labelling a Muslim woman antisemitic when they purposely ignore the context and when they are forced to be made aware of the context in public they start to tone police saying she should use words carefully.

There are 3 things going on here . It might be one or it might me a combination of multiple

1. She is a Muslim and people need it take it out on her
2. She is black and people need to take it out on her
3. People people consider it like every other democracy but a theocracy so anything negative about its running of affairs is offensive

 

[manchego obfuscator]

Gonna bet that the rest of Dem leadership will condemn her and threaten her with the loss of committee seats by the end of the weekend.

also, Palestinians and allies who believe strongly that [insert criticism of Israel here] isn't antisemitism never count. their voices don't matter in the debate. Only those who (consciously or otherwise) want to limit the boundaries of permissible criticism of Israel have legitimate "constituent concerns," even though they usually do so with a pronounced pro-Israel ideological bias, in good faith or otherwise

 

[Chikor]

Wait... you thought that was antisemitic ? Why are folks so keen on labelling a Muslim woman antisemitic when they purposely ignore the context and when they are forced to be made aware of the context in public they start to tone police saying she should use words carefully.

Click to shrink...

Because 2 days ago the UN Commission of Inquiry on the 2018 protests in Palestine came out with a pretty scathing report of Israel accusing it of serious human right violations and war crimes.
So like clockwork, you had the usual suspect trying to switch the narrative to something else, anything else.
Pay attention the next time a bad news story break about Israel, this is very predictable and it comes from mostly the same people (edit to be clear here: when i say "same people" I'm talking about people in the media, not posters here).
Just see how well it works here on a pretty damn left leaning forum.

 

[manchego obfuscator]

again, speaking as a Jew: if you genuinely want an actually open and honest debate about Israel, you cannot just say that my fellow Jews know best about what constitutes antisemitism and we should just always defer to them. you just can't.

of course criticism of Israel can and does sometimes cross the line into antisemitism, and the "defer to members of the minority group in question" model generally works for other forms of bigotry, but the fact that so much of what gets labeled antisemitism revolves around Israel, and the consequent geopolitical, territorial, and human rights dimensions, ought to necessitate a different approach, one where such allegations are actually evaluated within a broader context instead of preemptively given the power to determine what you can and can't say