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Durante

Dark Souls Man
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Oct 24, 2017
5,074
I honestly think most likely is between 400 and 500 for the full kit. The lighthouses are still very expensive to manufacture. It'd be very impressive if they could get this down to 400. I think closer to 500 is more likely though (for everything).

For anyone thinking it's too low, the rumors seem to be holding fairly true. There's nothing that's really expensive (outside of lighthouse). Fully expect 1440X1600 LCD based on yesterday's leaks. It seems like they're shooting for a premium consumer experience at a somewhat mainstream price.
I mostly agree, but I think $499 for the complete bundle is the lower floor.
Even with a reasonable HMD in terms of technology, I think they might actually lose money below that.

There's a lot of technology in each of the knuckles controllers, and the lighthouses need precision engineering of moving parts.

Edit: I have to say, I love the thread header image.
 

Wowfunhappy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,102
I am buying this ASAP—my launch Vive needs a replacement—but add me to list of calls for a wireless option. I don't care if it comes from Valve as long as it works and it doesn't take too long.

I have a TPCast and going back to a wire will be VERY disappointing.
 

Vash63

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,682
A lot of those high res hopes were dashed by the store page leak from yesterday. The minimum specs are the same as vive pro, and it only requires DP 1.2, which implies a similar or identical resolution to vive pro and outright excludes those JDI panels. Also the screenshot where the developer accidentally showed the supersampling res also most likely points to a vive pro resolution.

At this point, unless there are multiple versions, I doubt we are going to get anything meaningfully higher than vive pro.

A lot of that is just speculation gone wild. The minimum DisplayPort spec for example is worthless, just because it supports DP1.2 doesn't mean it's limited by it. Over the last couple years SteamVR has had huge improvements to its reprojection and resolution scaling that make SteamVR a much more flexible platform than it used to be.

A DP1.2 minspec doesn't mean it won't use DP1.3 resolutions when available, it can scale. The port is compatible and a cable made for 1.3 bandwidth can work in a 1.2 port.
A GTX 1070 recommended spec also doesn't mean the same resolution as Vive Pro, again that could just be where they're happy with motion smoothing giving people a good, playable experience across most SteamVR games.
 

pj-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
A lot of that is just speculation gone wild. The minimum DisplayPort spec for example is worthless, just because it supports DP1.2 doesn't mean it's limited by it. Over the last couple years SteamVR has had huge improvements to its reprojection and resolution scaling that make SteamVR a much more flexible platform than it used to be.

A DP1.2 minspec doesn't mean it won't use DP1.3 resolutions when available, it can scale. The port is compatible and a cable made for 1.3 bandwidth can work in a 1.2 port.
A GTX 1070 recommended spec also doesn't mean the same resolution as Vive Pro, again that could just be where they're happy with motion smoothing giving people a good, playable experience across most SteamVR games.

How is it speculation gone wild to base expectations on known facts, but not speculation gone wild to have a 'best guess' that they are using 2160x2432 panels (or even higher!) that no one has used on a commercial product before?

It would be nice if valve shipped super high res panels that can work with much older hardware, but I wouldn't bet on it.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
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Oct 24, 2017
5,074
Also, in particular, going beyond the DP1.2 limit would mean dedicated scaling hardware in the HMD. Which doesn't make sense IMHO.

From my perspective, the chances for the really-high-res JDI panel are almost 0. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the Vive Pro resolution -- though there are several pointers in that direction based on the leaks.
 

Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
If this thing's indeed just a rebadged Vive Pro, they're going to have to be bargain priced to make sense. $499+ HMD or $700-$800 bundle is dead in the water for sure, those are preposterous predictions considering the competitive landscape. Those 1440x1600 panels will be nearly 2 years old and Samsung already discounts the Odyssey+ bundle to $299 on sales. Nobody's going to pay $700+ for more or less the same specs and functionality. Hell even I wouldn't buy one, and I've already bought 5 headsets on their respective launches. Those kind of price premiums will require cutting edge specs/features, which the latest leaks definitely don't have. If it's just a Valve built/designed Pro, I would guess $299 for the headset and $499 for the bundle. $399 and $599 would be a slimmer possibility, but too expensive for what it is IMO. Maybe if their lens system is vastly superior or increases the FOV, it would warrant it.
 
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Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
It's certainly not a "rebadged Vive Pro" though, even if it were to use the same panels.

Compared to the Vive Pro bundle, it would have
  • The most advanced and versatile VR controllers that currently exist
  • Further improved tracking (Lighthouse 2.0)
  • [very likely] Better optics
  • [likely] Larger FoV
  • [likely] Better audio
And that's compared to the Vive Pro bundle, which is >$1000.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,495
It's certainly not a "rebadged Vive Pro" though, even if it were to use the same panels.

Compared to the Vive Pro bundle, it would have
  • The most advanced and versatile VR controllers that currently exist
  • Further improved tracking (Lighthouse 2.0)
  • [very likely] Better optics
  • [likely] Larger FoV
  • [likely] Better audio
And that's compared to the Vive Pro bundle, which is >$1000.
Plus the mystery thingamajig on the front.
 

Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
It's certainly not a "rebadged Vive Pro" though, even if it were to use the same panels.

Compared to the Vive Pro bundle, it would have
  • The most advanced and versatile VR controllers that currently exist
  • Further improved tracking (Lighthouse 2.0)
  • [very likely] Better optics
  • [likely] Larger FoV
  • [likely] Better audio
And that's compared to the Vive Pro bundle, which is >$1000.

The Pro's pricing is irrelevant though and a point of comparison for no one. It's not a consumer product and has sold abysmally compared to the OG Vive. Someone looking at a consumer headset would be comparing to a $299-$399 Odyssey+ (or Rift S) or a $599 Reverb or Pimax, any one of which can be paired with a likely Lighthouse + Knuckles bundle (probably $199-$249). If you're talking $700+ bundle, I don't think it hangs without some sort of wow spec or feature...which it may very well have, but is definitely not in the current leaks.
 
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Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
I'd be in at 600 for the full kit. As always, it would depend on the games. I've been enjoying my psvr, and I'm totally down for something bigger and badder.
 

Kompis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,021
Interested if there will be a sleeker wireless option than the TPCast or the Vive Wireless adapter.
$800 seem reasonable for the bundle (headset, knuckles and lighthouse) if the headset is at least on par or better than the Vive Pro.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
The Pro's pricing is irrelevant though and a point of comparison for no one. It's not a consumer product and has sold abysmally compared to the OG Vive. Someone looking at a consumer headset would be comparing to a $299-$399 Odyssey+ (or Rift S) or a $599 Reverb or Pimax, any one of which can be paired with a likely Lighthouse + Knuckles bundle (probably $199-$249). If you're talking $700+ bundle, I don't think it hangs without some sort of wow spec or feature...which it may very well have, but is definitely not in the current leaks.
Well, a $399 Odyssey+ and Rift S have:
  • much worse (Odyssey+) respectively worse (Rift S) controller tracking
  • less advanced controllers
  • lower resolution in the case of the Rift S
  • (likely) lower FoV
  • (likely) worse optics
I don't think Pimax or the HP HMD are actual contenders outside the enthusiast niche. (I say that as a Pimax 8k owner btw. -- really nice piece of technology, especially from a small company, and with unique selling points even compared to the newly announced HMDs, but not something that appeals to a large audience)

I actually agree with you that >$700 for the bundle would make it a hard sell -- if it uses 1440x1600, and if there's nothing else special about the HMD.
In that "worst case" I'd say $699 would be borderline, $599 would be a good price for the complete system, and $499 would be great.

Personally, I'm 100% getting the controllers and fully expect them to be my new main VR input system, but at $499 I'd be tempted to get the complete bundle.
 
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pj-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
It's certainly not a "rebadged Vive Pro" though, even if it were to use the same panels.

Compared to the Vive Pro bundle, it would have
  • The most advanced and versatile VR controllers that currently exist
  • Further improved tracking (Lighthouse 2.0)
  • [very likely] Better optics
  • [likely] Larger FoV
  • [likely] Better audio
And that's compared to the Vive Pro bundle, which is >$1000.

vive pro is lighthouse 2.0
 

Kaako

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,736
What I need out of this HMD:
On par but preferably much better optics than Pro.
On par/better comfort than PSVR.
VirtualLink(wtf valve).

The rest I already know I'll get regardless like the knuckles & 2.0 base stations.
 

Murfield

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,425
does it come in red

viewfinder-flash.png

why yes it does

200px-Virtual-Boy-Set.jpg
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
The Pro's pricing is irrelevant though and a point of comparison for no one. It's not a consumer product and has sold abysmally compared to the OG Vive. Someone looking at a consumer headset would be comparing to a $299-$399 Odyssey+ (or Rift S) or a $599 Reverb or Pimax, any one of which can be paired with a likely Lighthouse + Knuckles bundle (probably $199-$249). If you're talking $700+ bundle, I don't think it hangs without some sort of wow spec or feature...which it may very well have, but is definitely not in the current leaks.
Pimax is $699 for just the headset, Lighthouse/controllers bundle is $300. $1000 for the package. The Valve Index, according to leaks, *does* have a wow spec - 135 degree field of view. That's quite a lot larger than all other non-Pimax consumer headsets. So large FoV, high resolution, comes with the next-gen controllers and lighthouses, I'd say that represents a next-gen VR headset that could get away with a next-gen price, and we know there's more that we *don't* know (like the big open space in the center, any sensor could fit in there). Especially since it's going with external sensors, it's obviously a high-end device for high-end users, since it's sacrificing inside-out convenience for top-notch tracking.
 

seabass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
29
How is it speculation gone wild to base expectations on known facts, but not speculation gone wild to have a 'best guess' that they are using 2160x2432 panels (or even higher!) that no one has used on a commercial product before?

Well, HP Reverb is coming soon and it has two 2160 x 2160 pixel panels. If the Index only matches the Vive Pro in resolution that would be a bit disappointing (especially if it has LCD panels).
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
Interested if there will be a sleeker wireless option than the TPCast or the Vive Wireless adapter.
$800 seem reasonable for the bundle (headset, knuckles and lighthouse) if the headset is at least on par or better than the Vive Pro.
It's hard to be sleek when you need a large antenna that needs to always have direct line-of-sight to the broadcaster.
 

seabass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
29
Also, in particular, going beyond the DP1.2 limit would mean dedicated scaling hardware in the HMD. Which doesn't make sense IMHO.

I'm not to knowledgable about these things, but why would scaling hardware not make sense? Due to cost?

The old leaked images last year showed that the headset had an Analogix ANX7530. I read that ANX7538 went into mass production in Q1 2019, and it has an integrated video scaler - and it'd be a good fit for the JDI screens. Though all this might be too expensive, I really have no idea.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,334
It's hard to be sleek when you need a large antenna that needs to always have direct line-of-sight to the broadcaster.

Not gonna lie, when this whole wireless thing first came up and Nitero was spewing propaganda about it being cheaper to implement than wired, I never realized it would be what it turned out to be. The end product was nothing like I imagined. I still hope it can somehow be made more elegant. Otherwise the Quest model is going to be an unstoppable force.
 

cakefoo

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,423
Having such a large socket directly on the front of your headset (made visible through transparent plastic) all for just a Leap Motion module seems overboard to me. I think it has to be for something more important.

What if instead, it's for a stand-alone module? Imagine a rectangular box that contains a battery, CPU, and GPU and allows the headset to go from being a tethered PC device to a stand alone like the Quest.
I've fantasized about that for several days, but I was afraid it would inflate expecations.

1) The data throughput- it looked like USB 3.0 last year, is that enough? They've strategically hidden the type of port in the consumer version images.
2) The potential FOV of the handtracking, given what we think we know about there only being 2 cameras. If the module's 3x cheaper than a Quest, that would make it forgivable somewhat. I doubt the module could add Lighthouse-quality tracking, because otherwise they wouldn't be offering Lighthouse basestations anymore.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,334
I've fantasized about that for several days, but I was afraid it would inflate expecations.

1) The data throughput- it looked like USB 3.0 last year, is that enough? They've strategically hidden the type of port in the consumer version images.
2) The potential FOV of the handtracking, given what we think we know about there only being 2 cameras. If the module's 3x cheaper than a Quest, that would make it forgivable somewhat. I doubt the module could add Lighthouse-quality tracking, because otherwise they wouldn't be offering Lighthouse basestations anymore.

You'd also need to have a breakout cable to easily plug/unplug the cable. You wouldn't want that connected if you were running mobile. If you look at that high resolution photo that was released, that cable is really routed tightly through the casing. It's clearly not designed for the cable to be easily plugged/unplugged from the HMD.
 

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,319
vive pro is lighthouse 2.0

It's not really. The normal Vive Pro bundle only comes with Lighthouse 1.0, so the tracking is not improved.
You need to either buy Lighthouse 2.0 base stations separately (not available till Valve Index launches), or go for the enterprise option to get the Vive Pro Full bundle, which is priced much higher, for commercial users primarily
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,815
Taking a look at the old shot of the Valve index HMD prototype, I have a big question

Most of the stuff you can kinda guess what it is, except the thing in the middle
Which I think might tie into whatever will be in that front slot. Or it will simply be an expansion bay for hardware guys to put in whatever they can fit within that space. You already saw a lot of things made for the Vive by third parties that they kinda hacked ontop. this might be a more defined area they can adapt whatever they want into.
 
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pj-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
It's not really. The normal Vive Pro bundle only comes with Lighthouse 1.0, so the tracking is not improved.
You need to either buy Lighthouse 2.0 base stations separately (not available till Valve Index launches), or go for the enterprise option to get the Vive Pro Full bundle, which is priced much higher, for commercial users primarily

I forgot there was a non-2.0 bundle. My local microcenter only has the $1400 full bundle in stock.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
May I ask what you're tempted by when you have a PiMax?
Primarily checking out the optics, and potentially having a higher-end OLED option than the Vive. I do miss the OLED contrast.

And honestly, software reliability and ease of use. I hope and expect it will still improve, but currently getting the Pimax to work is a bit of an adventure every time.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,334
Taking a look at the old shot of the Valve index HMD prototype, I have a big question

Most of the stuff you can kinda guess what it is, except the thing in the middle

Which I think might tie into whatever will be in that front slot. Or it will simply be an expansion bay for hardware guys to put in whatever they can fit within that space. You already saw a lot of things made for the Vive by third parties that they kinda hacked ontop. this might be a more defined area they can adapt whatever they want into.

Best speculation was it's the crazy HDR headset that Valve prototyped. It was said to ruin all other VR for you (after seeing it). It also burned out displays in ridiculously short periods.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,495
Taking a look at the old shot of the Valve index HMD prototype, I have a big question

Most of the stuff you can kinda guess what it is, except the thing in the middle

Which I think might tie into whatever will be in that front slot. Or it will simply be an expansion bay for hardware guys to put in whatever they can fit within that space. You already saw a lot of things made for the Vive by third parties that they kinda hacked ontop. this might be a more defined area they can adapt whatever they want into.
Pretty cool looking back at that image. Still have no idea what the thingamajig is, but it's nice to know that was a tease for a headset.
 

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,319
Taking a look at the old shot of the Valve index HMD prototype, I have a big question

Most of the stuff you can kinda guess what it is, except the thing in the middle

UPBAx8U.jpg


Which I think might tie into whatever will be in that front slot. Or it will simply be an expansion bay for hardware guys to put in whatever they can fit within that space. You already saw a lot of things made for the Vive by third parties that they kinda hacked ontop. this might be a more defined area they can adapt whatever they want into.

This is their HDR prototype. Extremely unlikely that any of this is incorporated into Index
 

Rosol

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,404
I want to get one, but I can't help but think this thing will be impossible to get and sold out through the rest of the year - unless of course they charge $700-800.
I doubt Valve is suddenly going to have the production capacity to produce a high amount of headsets out of the gate, when they know this thing will probably struggle beyond the enthusiasts' initial sale.
 

Jarate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,614
I want to get one, but I can't help but think this thing will be impossible to get and sold out through the rest of the year - unless of course they charge $700-800.
I doubt Valve is suddenly going to have the production capacity to produce a high amount of headsets out of the gate, when they know this thing will probably struggle beyond the enthusiasts' initial sale.

I don't remember the Link and the Controller ever having productions issues or shortages that were huge. I doubt this will sell a ludicrous amount anyway, unless there's some type of exclusive game that makes it big.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,815
This is their HDR prototype. Extremely unlikely that any of this is incorporated into Index

Are you sure? Since the video is from 2015 speaking about it and the vive released the year after, in comparison to the Valve video which shows the prototypes in order and this one is after the Vive prototype, and also on Gabes head, instead of some random guy. I think its def the first prototype of their own headset
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
I want to get one, but I can't help but think this thing will be impossible to get and sold out through the rest of the year - unless of course they charge $700-800.
I doubt Valve is suddenly going to have the production capacity to produce a high amount of headsets out of the gate, when they know this thing will probably struggle beyond the enthusiasts' initial sale.
Well, they made about 500000 Steam controllers per year. Obviously a full Index kit requires a lot more assembly, but they also scaled up their production capacity.

That said, if it comes in on the lower range of speculated prices I also expect it to be sold out for a while.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
Damn I just realized we're probably going to be able to use knuckles controllers with regular steam input huh?
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,334
Well, they made about 500000 Steam controllers per year. Obviously a full Index kit requires a lot more assembly, but they also scaled up their production capacity.

That said, if it comes in on the lower range of speculated prices I also expect it to be sold out for a while.

Speaking of which, it fell off the front page real quick, but there's a new Steam Controller patent that uses Knuckle's force sensors on the grip buttons:

https://www.resetera.com/threads/va...our-force-sensing-grips.109098/#post-19461297

Surprised the thread didn't get much action.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
I wonder if we'll see people doing a hybrid control scheme where they play traditional games with a mouse or keyboard in one hand and Knuckles in the other?

Oh yeah you can already do that with regular controllers. if the game doesn't support simultaneous controller in mouse input, you can map keyboard keys to the controller and the game just thinks you're playing keyboard and mouse. So if we can use knuckles, being able to do that should be a given.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
May I ask what you're tempted by when you have a PiMax?
Pimax is a niche system, it's amazing and the first true next-gen headset, and I can't go back to old headsets because of the tiny field of view - like looking through a porthole! But as Durante said, it's got a ways to go before it's a solid, easy-to-use device. Especially if you want to play Oculus games, often you have to change the config to get them to run, or have the correct height. And some games don't look quite right, I have one beta game that doesn't even control right on the Pimax, though it works fine on the Vive.

Valve's (rumored) 135 degrees should be good enough to not feel tiny, and being Valve it should be pretty highly polished.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,495

Kompis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,021
It's hard to be sleek when you need a large antenna that needs to always have direct line-of-sight to the broadcaster.
Well to be fair I said sleeker, and it should not be very hard to achieve if it's not an afterthought as the tpcast and wireless adapter. Both of those solutions looks horrible.
 

Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
Pimax is $699 for just the headset, Lighthouse/controllers bundle is $300. $1000 for the package. The Valve Index, according to leaks, *does* have a wow spec - 135 degree field of view. That's quite a lot larger than all other non-Pimax consumer headsets. So large FoV, high resolution, comes with the next-gen controllers and lighthouses, I'd say that represents a next-gen VR headset that could get away with a next-gen price, and we know there's more that we *don't* know (like the big open space in the center, any sensor could fit in there). Especially since it's going with external sensors, it's obviously a high-end device for high-end users, since it's sacrificing inside-out convenience for top-notch tracking.

I was referring to Valve sold lighthouses and knuckles, which I think they confirmed would be sold separate from Index. While it's possible they could be $300 (like Pimax's), I was positing $199 or $249 are more likely (Valve has disclosed they sell 2.0 base stations to third parties for around $50/ea if I'm not mistaken). If the FOV is 135 @ 1440x1600, doesn't that mean the perceived resolution and PPD would hardly be an improvement over the OG Vive? My comments were based on the assumption FOV will be unchanged though, cause AFAIK none of the concrete findings point to it yet. It was my mistake on the Pimax HMD though, I backed it and was not aware they ballooned the price that high. Based on the tiers I assumed the 5k would retail at $599 and the 8K at $699 or maybe $799...but they went full HTC on us.
 
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Wowfunhappy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,102
I want to get one, but I can't help but think this thing will be impossible to get and sold out through the rest of the year - unless of course they charge $700-800.
I doubt Valve is suddenly going to have the production capacity to produce a high amount of headsets out of the gate, when they know this thing will probably struggle beyond the enthusiasts' initial sale.

The Vive was only sold out for a few months, and relatively easy to get after that.

Granted, it cost $800, but that was also three years ago.
 
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