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Ars Technica: Valve’s long-rumored VR headset is finally real: the Valve Index, coming in June
- Thread starter Deleted member 3058
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Insane display speculation time
Let's go back to the initial leak from last year with photos
https://uploadvr.com/valve-135-vr-headset-half-life/
Specifically these photos (not embedding because they're massive)
https://i.imgur.com/6yke2mi.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3uywP0M.jpg
Some of the stickers on the headsets are visible.
While hard to make out it appears to say
Both of these are display manufactures and both have similarly spec'd screens available.
https://www.boe.com/en/product/xsqj/xnxs/vr-ar/ (3.5" 2160×2376 @90hz) (106 FoV)
https://www.j-display.com/english/news/2018/20180510.html (3.25" 2160×2432 @120hz also RGB) (no stated FoV)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmEecEGJTFk Video of the JDI in action)
Of the two I believe it'll be the JDI they use. I imagine BOE is only being used for testing purposes.
Ignore first point
First reason I believe they're using JDI over BOE is that the fov is lower on the BOE than the rumored 135. Of course the 135 degree part of the rumor could always be wrong.
Second is that on the JDI page there's a press release stating that it had an expected release date of March 2019. IIRC rumors last year expected an early 2019 launch for Valves HMD so that lines up with this displays release.
Third reason and probably the craziest or hardest to swallow is because of the refresh rate. Having a 120hz refresh rate would give users the option to render their games at 60fps while using reprojection to get 120hz for headtracking exactly like how PSVR does it. I imagine most people won't be able to run these displays at 120 or even 90. Running it at 60 would be a lot more reasonable however and as PSVR has proven 60fps w/ 120 headtracking is a very viable option. There could possibly be a 90hz mode too for those who want the extra smoothness but can't get 120. PSVR also has a 90hz mode so it could work.
Let's go back to the initial leak from last year with photos
https://uploadvr.com/valve-135-vr-headset-half-life/
Specifically these photos (not embedding because they're massive)
https://i.imgur.com/6yke2mi.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3uywP0M.jpg
Some of the stickers on the headsets are visible.
While hard to make out it appears to say
Display
🗹 BOE ☐ JDI
Both of these are display manufactures and both have similarly spec'd screens available.
https://www.boe.com/en/product/xsqj/xnxs/vr-ar/ (3.5" 2160×2376 @90hz) (106 FoV)
https://www.j-display.com/english/news/2018/20180510.html (3.25" 2160×2432 @120hz also RGB) (no stated FoV)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmEecEGJTFk Video of the JDI in action)
Of the two I believe it'll be the JDI they use. I imagine BOE is only being used for testing purposes.
Ignore first point
Second is that on the JDI page there's a press release stating that it had an expected release date of March 2019. IIRC rumors last year expected an early 2019 launch for Valves HMD so that lines up with this displays release.
Third reason and probably the craziest or hardest to swallow is because of the refresh rate. Having a 120hz refresh rate would give users the option to render their games at 60fps while using reprojection to get 120hz for headtracking exactly like how PSVR does it. I imagine most people won't be able to run these displays at 120 or even 90. Running it at 60 would be a lot more reasonable however and as PSVR has proven 60fps w/ 120 headtracking is a very viable option. There could possibly be a 90hz mode too for those who want the extra smoothness but can't get 120. PSVR also has a 90hz mode so it could work.
I feel crazy typing out this speculation and feel like I'm probably wrong.
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1. Rez Infinite: suffers from stutter on Vive/Rift from being forced to run at 90hz/60fps.
2. ZOE: MARS: is capped at 45fps on Vive. Hopefully it won't require a patch to get 60fps.
120hz>40fps is also possible. Motion smoothing could make things a little more bearable in such an extreme use case.
Would be nice to see the bar raised for consumer VR, only like 2 psvr titles support 120fps.
120hz>60fps would be a neat option for all PCVR games, but great for two unique cases (PS2 ports) -
1. Rez Infinite: suffers from stutter on Vive/Rift from being forced to run at 90hz/60fps.
2. ZOE: MARS: is capped at 45fps on Vive. Hopefully it won't require a patch to get 60fps.
120hz>40fps is also possible. Motion smoothing could make things a little more bearable in such an extreme use case.
Would be nice to see the bar raised for consumer VR, only like 2 psvr titles support 120fps.
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Insane display speculation time
Let's go back to the initial leak from last year with photos
https://uploadvr.com/valve-135-vr-headset-half-life/
Specifically these photos (not embedding because they're massive)
https://i.imgur.com/6yke2mi.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3uywP0M.jpg
Some of the stickers on the headsets are visible.
While hard to make out it appears to say
Display🗹 BOE ☐ JDI
Both of these are display manufactures and both have similarly spec'd screens available.
https://www.boe.com/en/product/xsqj/xnxs/vr-ar/ (3.5" 2160×2376 @90hz) (106 FoV)
https://www.j-display.com/english/news/2018/20180510.html (3.25" 2160×2432 @120hz also RGB) (no stated FoV)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmEecEGJTFk Video of the JDI in action)
Of the two I believe it'll be the JDI they use. I imagine BOE is only being used for testing purposes. First reason I believe they're using JDI over BOE is that the fov is lower on the BOE than the rumored 135. Of course the 135 degree part of the rumor could always be wrong.
Second is that on the JDI page there's a press release stating that it had an expected release date of March 2019. IIRC rumors last year expected an early 2019 launch for Valves HMD so that lines up with this displays release.
Third reason and probably the craziest or hardest to swallow is because of the refresh rate. Having a 120hz refresh rate would give users the option to render their games at 60fps while using reprojection to get 120hz for headtracking exactly like how PSVR does it. I imagine most people won't be able to run these displays at 120 or even 90. Running it at 60 would be a lot more reasonable however and as PSVR has proven 60fps w/ 120 headtracking is a very viable option. There could possibly be a 90hz mode too for those who want the extra smoothness but can't get 120. PSVR also has a 90hz mode so it could work.
I feel crazy typing out this speculation and feel like I'm probably wrong.
Good work, may be speculation but it seems pretty reasonable. 1000 ppi would be great, right? If they do use that 120hz screen that would beat out the upcoming HP headset. 2160x2432 per eye compared to HP's 2160x2160 per eye?
Using reprojection method from 60 to 120 seems sensible, I don't have experience with it on my Rift, how does the experience compare? Targeting 60fps with those resolution specs would keep hardware requirements down, so I could definitely see Valve going that route.
I was under the impression that the panel has almost no correlation to FOV and thats totally up to the lenses
VR is very accesible these days. You can pick up a Lenovo Explorer for around $100-150 on ebay and it can run almost any current VR game with very little issue
I really hope (and expect) it to use the lighthouse stations. I'd personally rather have 100% accurate tracking than relying on inside-out and it occluding every so often when I'm firing a bow etc. That sucks.
It helps that I have mine permanently mounted on tripods since launch and haven't touched them since original setup.
You'll notice the difference of 60fps applied to 120hz - there is a double image effect applied when strobbing/scanning/using low persistence, vs when a LCD panel uses sample and hold (and smears all over the place).
http:///Ifod.png
Basically, in order:
30fps@120hz
40fps@120hz
60fps@120hz
120fps@120hz
It's something that you can easily get used to, but native is always better.
120hz low persistence also eliminates a substantial amount of flicker compared to even 90hz. In a headset, the difference is much less pronounced, but on a Lightboost/ULMB monitor such a flicker difference can cause quite a bit of fatigue, at least in my experience. I never used the lower end 100hz Lightboost for that reason, even when I couldn't make the performance requirement for 120hz in games.
We're going to need way higher refresh rate VR displays in the future, 480hz and beyond, etc. There's a big difference between persistence levels when going that high.
In the future, as a compromise measure in power limited scenarios, we could strobe at way higher refresh rates (240hz, 360hz, 480hz ~~~ 960hz) and then have content render at denominations of those refresh rates, with a bunch of interpolation and companion techniques (Display side: black frame insertion [1, 2]; Content side: Motion Smoothing, NVIDIA's AI interpolation) picking up slack to minimize that double imaging.
You're right about that. Edited it out
Yeah that's the same effect I got on PSVR. It's noticable but at the same time a really minor thing and you forget its there unless you bring an object up to your face and move it. I certainly find a lot less distracting than Asynchronous Spacewarp(or is it Timewarp?) on my Rift. When I drop to 45fps on that I get really noticeable artifacts and it's super distracting in menus
Yup, agreed. Also agreed on Spacewarp/Timewarp/Motion Smoothing - it isn't my favorite right now either, but it has a lot of potential.
For VR, it's more about comfort for everyone+matching the human eye as closely as possible rather than "moar fps" like typical gaming, similar to IPD digital vs physical adjustment and varifocal (& light field) displays. CRTs strobbed by default, and that stuff could really murder your eyes at anything below 75hz.
Lighthouse is frankly the least clunky tracking setup out there and the best balance of convenience and tracking functionality. No wires, you just need to stick the stations on the walls in opposite corners of the room or put them somewhere high up roughly around that area, or use a couple of tripods. No fiddling with wires, and you'll never have to touch them ever again outside of eventually replacing the batteries.
Camera-based tracking like the WMR/Quest/S headsets is okay, but I would frankly take that damn near flawless tracking in exchange for the slight hit in convenience, the limitations of camera tracking are simply not worth it. The only reason I have a WMR headset is because it came free with my laptop.
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There aren't a ton of Vive owners. Making high end VR much more confusing and less accessible to the average joe to save a small amount of people money would be a losing strategy, unless they were aiming to be a niche product only the earliest of early adopters would buy.
Logo?
Strongly disagree. It's the second worst system in terms of clunkiness and convenience, just marginally better than that of the original Rift. This is only a 'slight' hit in convenience if you only use your gear in dedicated VR rooms.
Bit misleading to do your comparison with the WMR headsets when those are 1st gen inside out tracking systems with just two cameras. Rift S and Oculus Quest use more cameras to deliver solid HMD and Controller tracking, and it's a very portable solution vs hunting down power sockets and mount locations or tripod stands for lighthouse boxes.
What about both? Inside out tracking, with an option to add lighthouse(s) if you want to improve tracking. For people who wants to bring it around to convention halls and expo shows frequently, its going to be cumbersome having to lug around those power strips, tripods and lighthouses along with a PC and the headsets, controllers etc
Multiple skus could happen.
[Warning]: Take this with a big ol' grain of salt of course, considering what happened to VNN with the "don't die in 5 years" troll from a week or two ago.
The barrier to entry hasn't been the easiest (base stations, powerful PC, a bunch of room) for SteamVR. The #1 audience for the Index is existing Vive owners (and jilted Rift owners) who are jonesing for an upgrade, imo. SteamVR has always been a very modular platform. There have been lots of posts across the internet for awhile about "will the knuckles work with base station 1.0?" (yes)/ "Will base station 2.0 work with 1.0 controllers and OG Vive?" (no).
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I'd be surprised if you couldn't buy the headset without at least the base stations. They're backward/forward compatible for a reason. The controllers are backward/forward compatible for a reason too. Valve wanted you to be able to upgrade piecemeal at your own pace. If we were talking about HTC here, I could see more forced bundling, but I don't think Valve is as concerned with gouging their fan base. I could maybe see them forcibly bundling Knuckles with the headset to push the adoption of them but, since they're almost assuredly going to offer those separate, I could see them offering the HMD by itself even.
Do you honestly think Gabe would just come out and say "yeah we stopped working on one of those games" in an email? Besides, like I said, those strings could be ancient at this point and the game itself could easily have died in the process like the majority of Valve's projects tend to. I just find it extremely improbable Valve would touch anything Half-Life related with a ten foot pole in full view of the public. There's no way they don't know it'll cause a damn riot if they talk about some VR side story game without any news on the continuation of the series.
Other projects are more possible, but with Valve Time in full effect and the recent failures in product launches, I'm not exactly holding my breath here. Valve might well come out of the gate with third party games only.
I don't think he would have replied at all if that was the case. Gabe Newell doesn't reply to every email he gets, I've sent him some before and gotten nothing back. It's much more likely to believe he's telling the truth, than to believe he lied when he could have simply just not responded at all. You are seeing what you want to see.
Regarding displays, if it's actually JDI, I think their 3.6" 1920×RGB×2160 90Hz display might actually be more likely.
Why?
That's actually why Oculus DK1 had a larger FoV than any subsequent Oculus HMD.
Why?
- It's larger. Getting even close to the rumourded 135° FoV with 3.25" displays seems infeasible.
- It's still easily sufficient resolution-wise to outperform all the major (consumer-oriented) competition.
- It's probably cheaper.
The panel size is the only thing that correlates with FoV.
That's actually why Oculus DK1 had a larger FoV than any subsequent Oculus HMD.
So was Oculus, but Rift S doesn't have it.
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There might not be a ton compared to the total human population, but we make up nearly 50% of PCVR's current installed base. If you're calling Index "high-end," then why would Average Joe even be looking at it? And what's the worst they'll think? That Valve's a good guy for having the foresight to build a VR hardware platform where gamers can upgrade components at their own pace?
Besides, if the HMD cameras can track the HMD sans lighthouse, then an HMD-only sku is a must for sim players.
Can't FOV also be increased by increasing the magnification factor and size of the lenses?
True, also the feeling of physically holding the card and looking at it from different angles would be great.
It can, but only to a point, and at the cost of more potential for optics-related artifacts.
True, but the Rift S strikes me as more of a cost saving refresh than a serious new product. I mean it's produced by Lenovo instead of Oculus even and seems to be more of a slightly upgraded WMR headset than anything custom made by Oculus.
Thats a piston of an old STEAM POWERED machine....
Do their logos ever make sense?
I'm just saying, this is basic PR and Gabe has done the same song and dance plenty of times before. Half-Life 2 was still on track for a September 30, 2003 release a week prior, per Gabe. Source 2 is definitely still coming. Ricochet 2 continues to be worked on, etc. Having some reasonable doubt over Gabe's statements is par for the course these days if you ask me. With Valve Time in full effect, even if they're not facing any development difficulties these games they're working on aren't likely to even be ready to be showed to the public yet.
All I'm asking is that people don't start with the "Half-Life VR is surely coming now" hype train, because there's every chance it'll lead to yet another disappointment. L4D3 and HL3 were both supposed to be releasing soon judging by the increasing number of leaks in the 2012-2015 period, but neither ended up happening. Gabe claiming the latter was still being worked on also turned out to be a half-truth at best.
What fov do you need for 'clear' graphics that the user may want to look at comfortably by moving their eyes, vs what fov is just for peripheral vision?
Thinking about performance with eg variable rate shading or similar techniques and more extreme solutions like secondary lower res displays/ambilight approximation etc
Thinking about performance with eg variable rate shading or similar techniques and more extreme solutions like secondary lower res displays/ambilight approximation etc
It seems like at these resolutions the 60 --> 120 frame doubling would make a lot of sense. And for simpler things (ie the Polybius's of the world, native 120hz play). I'd personally love this to be the case. Although if the smaller size truly does mean small FOV, I'm not happy about that. Gonna be hugely disappointed if there's not some kind of FOV increase over Vive.
With HP going with the 90hz model, who could possibly be using the 120hz model (that's mentioned in JDI's press release)? If it was some small, proprietary HMD deal, you wouldn't think it'd be mentioned as prominently as it was.
Then again, that was over a year ago and we know that as late as July, Valve still had BOI screens being tested in models. And BOI doesn't have a 120hz model (that I'm aware of). So that's compelling evidence against it being Valve who was already locked into it.
With HP going with the 90hz model, who could possibly be using the 120hz model (that's mentioned in JDI's press release)? If it was some small, proprietary HMD deal, you wouldn't think it'd be mentioned as prominently as it was.
Then again, that was over a year ago and we know that as late as July, Valve still had BOI screens being tested in models. And BOI doesn't have a 120hz model (that I'm aware of). So that's compelling evidence against it being Valve who was already locked into it.
Two profiles of plano-convex lenses, and one viewed directly, would be my guess.
The name "Index" would be referring to refractive index.
Do their logos ever make sense?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESfSG2OlQYQ
Two profiles of plano-convex lenses, and one viewed directly, would be my guess.
The name "Index" would be referring to refractive index.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESfSG2OlQYQ
The logo certainly represents the patent they have for their lenses:
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/bf/96/3e/a6a94ed8109fd1/US20180081092A1.pdf
But if you're gonna name your system after that, it better be one "holy hell, this is good" Fresnel lens.
I think that depends a lot on how you intend to drive the headset. The value of a "portable" headset is not that great if you are looking at tethering it to a high spec desktop PC. Moving my desktop around is already a huge pain, so limiting my VR play to the room that has my desktop in it is not such a big sacrifice.
If we are talking about an all-in-one headset, or a headset tethered to a smartphone or a laptop, then it's a totally different story because the headset is legitimately portable at that point.
I CRACKED THE CODE.
It's actually the word ODD but mirrored backwards.
It's mirrored because that itself is a hint to the 180* FOV through use of mirrors inside the HMD to reflect back onto a second layer of screens and yet keep the form factor compact, also reinforced by the actual word "odd" since thats what100% of people say upon looking at the internal mechanism and in combination with this "odd" has THREE letters, three of course being the number of fingers of a superior race of lizard men, yet it also is indicating we are indeed getting the trifecta trilogy of HL3, Portal 3 and Team Fortress 3 HOWEVER since the word is mirrored these will all infact be 3 prequels each set 3 games before the original, akin to the prequel trilogy of star wars which many people would descibe as, you fuckin guessed it
ODD.
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Somebody designed this for $1,000,000
It's programmer art. I think Alan Yates made it and Gabe was like, "Yeah, that looks good to me. Let's go with it." LOL
I want to say this logo has something to do with visiting worlds beyond our own but I dont really believe that.
Since the are two half circles. I'm going with 180 something.
Hopefully horizontal degrees FOV lol
Edit: Nevermind it doesn't look big enough. I honestly wonder what Valve is doing with this headset and why it's worth it for them.
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I agree, but for more mainstream appeal I hope they can support both for little extra cost
There are exactly as many wires as with Oculus Rift, one per sensor - instead of the Rift sensor's USB cable, each lighthouse requires a power cable. And Rift is the same, "you'll never have to touch them again" (dunno what you are talking about with batteries). What's a bit more difficult about Rift sensors is the fact that the wires must plug into the computer, so the one in back has to be routed around the room, while the Vive lighthouses only need the wires routed to the nearest power outlet.
I am increasingly convinced that "May 2019" isn't the month where this headset ships, just the month when they reveal what it is, how much it costs and when it will ship. Based on nothing, I'm going to guess... late october.
Yea, this seems most likely to me as well. This pre-announcement was clearly as a counter-measure against the Quest and Rift S.
I don't think we can say it was clearly anything yet. They've been working on these for a long time. And whether people like it or not, Valve has a very public philosophy (if you've ever watched their Steam Dev Day videos): "People don't want to hear emtpy words. It makes them angry when you speak and fail to deliver on your promises. Speak only when you have something to show them."
This is clearly a tactic to build hype. And if they're actually launching in May, it's a good tactic. Drop a tiny scrap, let the community get invested and speculate away. Then when that's run its course, drop some more. Keep them in a frenzy and build the hype till you launch in May.
If we're talking counter-measures, I half wonder how much the industry has actually known about things. Valve's been running the factory for quite some time now. Facebook has to have a general idea of what's up. I wonder if the Rift S was Facebook's counter to the fact they knew Valve was launching soon. And they needed a new product to be a able to sell as an ugprade. So they Franken-smashed the Go and Quest together as some cheap new product they could counter it with (on the budget end).
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