All these costumed superheroes would provide a perfect excuse to get martial artist actors as stunt doubles.
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Avengers: Endgame will not outgross Avatar worldwide. Who will make an avatar bet about that?
- Thread starter PhoncipleBone
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I still think the movie will make 2.8 B, so it will pass Avatar. However, I don't think it will pass the 3 B mark.
I have no idea about that character (Shang Chi, is it)? But get Iko in front of the camera and Gareth behind it, and I will watch it three times.
What, you came to a comic book movie for the deep, human drama? :P
It's a one on one fight though, and I thought the Russos had left this kind of editing behind. In general the action direction in Endgame is bizarrely inconsistent, as if multiple people (and not just two brothers) had been in charge of multiple sequences. You have the editing mess of the Captan American fight, you have the one-take Hawkeye fight, the more sensibly shot and edited three-way fight later on and then you also have the impossibly, super fake-looking all-digital one-shots in the third act that look like they took out a page from that one Avengers shot.
In this specific case it's even weirder to me because the Russos/Marvel looked like they had learned how to stage and edit a fight scene, going by the final fight between Buckey/Iron Man/Captain in Civil War.
12 different cuts in four seconds, some of those shots last literally a handful of frames. It's pretty up there with that infamous Taken 3 gif. Although I guess I could give it props for not having totally different and random changes of direction like in their previous work.
Why should I give a pass to the most expensive movie ever made in regards to digital doubles? Besides one of them is wearing a mask. I would argue the logistics in any of the John Wick 3 fights, with its consistently long takes, are more complex than this one.
I haven't watched Merantau but I assume it's pretty awesome with Iko Uwais in there doing his thing.
Personally I just loathe any action sequence that abuses rapid fire, up-close editing like this.
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Since I was the only one saying BO isn't an indicator of quality...
Re: the Oscars-- I don't?
Re: the box office-- it doesn't matter?
This is all a horserace-watching game as far as I am concerned. It's fun no matter the outcome. Like I said, even if Avatar is dethroned, nothing is a) going to take away from the cultural moment that it was or that it held the record for a decade or b) make the script not suck or c) make the visuals not excellent.
And if Endgame doesn't take the crown, still doesn't change the fact that a) it's an amazing achievement to tell a story over 22 movies more or less or b) that it's time travel mechanics are handwaved garbage or c) that it's a solid 30 minutes too long or d) that it's a heartfelt closure to several characters.
How about the equivalence of the JW3 director having worked on Civil War with the Russos and apparently they having learned nothing from the experience?
No but if you went to got that from Avatar then that is a worry.
You give Avatar a pass on its script.
Watch it, its awesome.
You can almost feel the salt beginning to pour out in this thread.
I liked endgame more than avatar but the difference in quality isn't *that* significant.
I don't really buy the "IT ONLY WAS THE 3D GIMMICK!" crowd. Sure, may have led to more money but each movie had their hook. Endgame had 20+ movies of hype all leading to THIS MOMENT ....
I liked endgame more than avatar but the difference in quality isn't *that* significant.
I don't really buy the "IT ONLY WAS THE 3D GIMMICK!" crowd. Sure, may have led to more money but each movie had their hook. Endgame had 20+ movies of hype all leading to THIS MOMENT ....
3 is the scond best John Wick and Atomic Blonde is better than John Wick 2, so what did they learn post John Wick?
I give Avatar a "pass" because despite some cornball dialogue everything about its story and journey is tightly executed and well thought-out (even if you think it's just ripping off Pocahontas *ugh*). Although, in terms of action, it's a little funny how similar it is to Endgame, as they're both pretty light in that category until the third act.
Well that's like your opinion, man. For me, each JW was better than the last.
Chad Stahelski didn't work on Atomic Blonde though.
I come here for the fun of people trying to act like Avatar is more than an amusement park ride. And it's fun when they use an actual amusement park ride to defend it. :)
So, I agree with you about Endgame's action overall. Stylistically all over the place. Oddly, that Hawkeye fight while well done just didn't land with me at all, it was so out of place. Not just style-wise either, the setting, violence level and subject matter were all just wrong for Endgame. That particular Cap v Cap fight does have extraneous cuts and that's annoying, but I do give it credit for being very clear what's happening-- something that most rapid-cut 1-1 fights get all wrong. And I completely agree with you re: Endgame's ending, although that's something I just accept for superhero movies these days. I've never been a fan of the CGI-takes-over huge 3rd act battles that have come to dominate cape films. It's one reason I loved revisiting X2 and Spider-Man 2 recently-- the climaxes of those movies are more than "one big fight."
Cameron never cuts a lot he just lets things happen in frame, that is not a slam he knows how to let things take their time.
I used to be like you in the before times, but Titanic killed me I was a Cameron super fan before that.
It's easy to be "tight" and "well-thought out" when it's that simplistic. There's nothing wrong with using a story archetype like Avatar's, but when you put so little meat on the bones, it's worth criticizing. It doesn't make it a bad watch, but *that's* the source of the comments about it's "lack of cultural relevance" and "everybody forgot it" (which are exaggerations, but rooted in truth). There's not much to connect to. It's a fine line between being a primal story everyone can relate to and being so generic that nobody stays with it. The original Star Wars managed it somehow. Avatar did not. Having the characters be more than cutouts would have helped.
I'm particularly harsh on Avatar's story (and Titanic's) because I know Cameron is capable of far, far better. I've seen T1 and T2 and the proper edit of the Abyss. Even True Lies had a better story. I was on board the Cameron train until he stopped caring about the story as much as the technical details. And it's a shame, because the technical details are still incredible. I think Titanic was a huge success despite the weak story and Cameron took the wrong less from it. Or right lesson I guess, given Avatar's success.
PS: I need to see the John Wick movies. Loved Atomic Blonde.
I know, David did and he might have turned up on set once for John Wick and made a better film than JW2.
The only thing that got better over the 3 films was the world building, they went from lean to self indulgent over 3 movies.
John Wick 1 is miles better than Blonde BTW and I like Blonde a lot.
Yeah, the last film I loved he directed was Lies, the last script I liked was Strange Days.
I still think Endgame has a chance of beating Avatar. I don't care if it doesn't though. And fuck all the fanboy nonsense, it's just dollar figures and dollar figures don't determine if a film is objectively better. Neither movie is as entertaining as Infinity War.
I'm not surprised that thread was closed because a ton of those posters in that thread are just pathetic at having a decent discussion which is why the mod closed it. I'm surprised you got banned over that though, when a lot of the posts were clearly drive-bys and seem to have gone without punishment.
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Don't worry. Salt and lemon juice will be poured into the wounds soon too.
Gonna go hunt down the avatar Blu Ray in honor of this monumental achievement.
Cameron stays winning.
Cameron stays winning.
I really should watch Avatar again. I enjoyed the theatre experience and saw it two or three times.
Avatar is well-trodden ground in some respects, but I would disagree it's simplistic. There's a lot of story being crammed into its near-three hour runtime, with plenty of setup and development, for its world and characters. And it's all paced extremely well and never loses sight of itself. And I would disagree that it's not a challenge to have people relate to 9-feet tall blue-colored cat aliens. Cameron wasn't out here to tell some complex plot, but rather a large-scale, escapist epic that would take audiences into an exotic adventure on another world, and have audiences care about what is going on throughout almost three hours. And I ABSOLUTELY would disagree that it's simple or easy to pull that off (just ask Disney how they did with John Carter). And Cameron does all this while also injecting his own pro-environmental and anti-imperalist worldview into the movie's thematic undercurrent. Some may call it hackneyed, but I believe there's an important message in Avatar. And for that I'm glad something like this turned out to be the most successful movie at the box office. It always bothers me when people (not specifically you you) argue that Cameron/Avatar just numbed audiences with pretty visuals and a non-existent story, as if that is somehow a recipe for success. Same when people say the same thing about Speed Racer, people only like it cuz of the colors huhrhurhur. Although that movie fucking failed completely at the box office *sadface*.
I don't see anything wrong with (most of) the characters. Archetypes are perfectly fine when done well.
Why Avatar didn't engender a massive cult-like fandom is another story. Maybe because not every movie is like that, no matter how successful it is or isn't.
I'm the kinda guy that considers the story side of the JW movies to be serviceable at best, so it's really the set pieces that make the difference for me. And in that regard each movie has been a considerable jump. Especially the third one.
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We won't have actuals until this Tuesday I believe, since today is a bank holiday in North America. However, people are seemingly celebrating the fact that Endgame needs estimated $110.492.351 to top Avatar as a sign that it won't make it.
Source: https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=daily&id=marvel2019.htm
I say that they might be celebrating too soon, or while they still can.
EDIT: With the new number estimates, it's actually estimated it needs $105.033.351 to top Avatar.
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They were way less inventive, the book one was neat, but them what, two knife fights back to back?
i had to look up my frustrations with the first season:
and it's been over a year so i've forgotten parts, but the main thing that stuck with me was how many subplots there were and how dumb some of the characters were. viren's kids in particular seem really stupid in that they know something's up but won't bring it up with each other. rayla is ... for some reason, trying to have the 'character telling the truth moment' (thanks i hate it!) while two of the main characters almost died. and this is for a show that is being planned out. it's baffling how bad the pacing is and poor the writing can be. i think what really saves it is the direction and the voice cast.
jett
I never said Avatar was badly paced or not engaging. It is! But its simplistic story and themes are so surface-level that they don't stay with you.
And I never said it was easy, either. Didn't see John Carter, but I get the point clearly. But again, when you hew so closely to a well-worn story archetype and don't add your own spin or take on it in any resonant way, it comes off as shallow. The visual achievement so lopsidedly outweighs the story that it is glaring. And Cameron can and has done far, far better. It didn't need a complex plot, but it needed *something* more than that simple archetype. They clearly spent time refining it because all the details work and there's nothing like plot danglers or holes, and the world is consistent. But other than that theme park ride, there's not much there. Nobody to really care about. No villain to see any depth to or to provide a different perspective on the world.
Some time back when people starting talking about Avatar again (if only to note how absent it had been) I went back and found my neogaf reactions to the movie at the time, and they were exactly the same way I feel now. Amazing ride, shame there wasn't really a story worthy of it.
I never said Avatar was badly paced or not engaging. It is! But its simplistic story and themes are so surface-level that they don't stay with you.
And I never said it was easy, either. Didn't see John Carter, but I get the point clearly. But again, when you hew so closely to a well-worn story archetype and don't add your own spin or take on it in any resonant way, it comes off as shallow. The visual achievement so lopsidedly outweighs the story that it is glaring. And Cameron can and has done far, far better. It didn't need a complex plot, but it needed *something* more than that simple archetype. They clearly spent time refining it because all the details work and there's nothing like plot danglers or holes, and the world is consistent. But other than that theme park ride, there's not much there. Nobody to really care about. No villain to see any depth to or to provide a different perspective on the world.
Some time back when people starting talking about Avatar again (if only to note how absent it had been) I went back and found my neogaf reactions to the movie at the time, and they were exactly the same way I feel now. Amazing ride, shame there wasn't really a story worthy of it.
I'm so glad I've never used the word "drek" to describe a movie. I feel like it only appears in media criticism that comes from a mean-spirited place. It's a word that doesn't just convey personal distaste, but also has this haughty undertone that wants to shame those who disagree.
I bet it's impossible to translate the word into Na'vi.
I bet it's impossible to translate the word into Na'vi.
Yeah, need to see Season 2. Cause of lot of that isn't true for that.
I guess different stuff works for different people in different ways. I cared about what happened in Avatar.
It's Thor The Dark World breh.
Also:
snegl
Absolutely. I've never derided anyone for loving it, only for dismissing other people's experiences. I know it has fans, I just know IRL more people who loved seeing it and promptly forgot about it.
There was a lot of hope from Marvel stans after opening week now they are trashing Avatar. Use that rage and enthusiasm and see Endgame another 10 times. Give up your dollars to Disney.
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Endgame isn't going to get a goddamned re-release. Avatar might (and probably should, I suppose).
Just think of all the potential money that could be made in China now for Avatar.
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