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Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
The way this looks is that, the other parties are splitting it enough that they can't get rid of him. In fact its interesting that his seats increased, presumably many coming from those lost seats some of which are right wing.

The left wing of Israel should take note of this. They need to find out where they differ, compromise and merge.
You're reading it very wrong.
Even if you put the Zionist Union as left wing (and you kinda shouldn't, like, they had no problem doing shit like what is talked about in this thread) the left wing block cannot dream to reach 60 MPs.
The problem is not splitting of the votes, its that the electorate in Israel is really right wing.
 

ArkkAngel007

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,005
There should have just been a regular mod text under the subject matter, instead of giant red text dominating the OP drawing all the focus. While some people will still complain, that'll remain on them.

There needs to be some stickied or constant resource available to reference outside of these individual threads. People shouldn't have been 'gotcha'd' over an obvious parallel in the last major thread because they weren't "in the know". It would help keep these rule derails/discussions out of the topic threads and not have to do the whole thing with every single one. They don't need to be open threads for discussion, just another community resource.

Also, from this point I expect to see the third 'rule' applied to US and other nations discussions. US citizens are held in their entirety (no matter their political affiliation) to Trump, the GOP, the police, etc. Israel, especially at this point, hasn't earned any special exception. So choose which it will be. Mind you, I agree with it, just want it to be uniform.

Anyway, back at the topic at hand (since it's clearly a footnote thanks to the mods), I wonder where the breaking point will be with the international community. Moving on Egypt?
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
The problem with the policy is that's not very nuanced. While it's not a comparison I am comfortable making, I can understand why some will do it and right wingers in the west get called Nazis for doing a lot less than what Israel does; it's one thing to talk a big game about making an ethnostate and ethnic cleansing but actually enacting it for decades is on a whole other level. I don't think someone making an angry comment pointing out the hypocrisy of Israel is the same as someone posting anti-semitic cartoons with racist caricatures comparing Jews to Nazis and although I appreciate wanting to draw a line in the sand before it devolves into the latter, you're really not giving the members of this forum enough credit. I saw someone get banned for making a pun and that's just absurd.
We have taken a hard stance on this issue because we feel it is the right thing to do. If there are any individual bans that the recipients' feel were unjustified, they can ask for clarification or reconsideration.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,045
Of those other parties, the """"center-left"""" Zionist Union broadly supports the whole occupation and its leader is opposed to right-of-return, also it's polling for the next Knesset election is really bad. Joint List is a combination of the Arab Israeli parties and they're pretty good but absolutely no other parties will work with them, Yesh Atid supports maintaining the settlements, Meretz is decent and genuinely committed to peace but is also marginal, and the rest all coalition partners with Likud. There is no electoral bloc seriously interested in peace.

Huh.. I guess what I read about the Zionist Union wasn't accurate or is outdated? Maybe their policies are lies like Republicans. So basically, they are like the FDR Democrats, mainly the the left economically but willing to toss the Palestinians to the wolves?

What I read, says they want to reopen talks, but I guess that could be anything. So the Israelis who actually want change have no hope of obtaining it without outside pressure? That is lame. They will have 2 more decades of waiting or even more depending on how well the far-left does in capturing U.S politics and depending on who becomes president.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,265
The way this looks is that, the other parties are splitting it enough that they can't get rid of him. In fact its interesting that his seats increased, presumably many coming from those lost seats some of which are right wing.
And back in May, Likud was expected to gain 5 more seats had there been elections. This is despite the fact that there's been recommendation by Israeli police that Netanyahu should be charged for corruption.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
There should have just been a regular mod text under the subject matter, instead of giant red text dominating the OP drawing all the focus. While some people will still complain, that'll remain on them.

Also, there needs to be some stickied or constant resource available to reference outside of these individual threads. People shouldn't be 'gotcha'd' over an obvious parallel because they aren't "in the know". It would help keep these rule derails/discussions out of the topic threads and not have to do the whole thing with every single one.

Also, from this point I expect to see the third 'rule' applied to US and other nations discussions. US citizens are held in their entirety to Trump, the GOP, the police, etc. Israel, especially at this point, hasn't earned any special exception. So choose which it will be. Mind you, I agree with it, just want it to be uniform.

Anyway, back at the topic at hand (since it's clearly a footnote thanks to the mods), I wonder where the breaking point will be with the international community. Moving on Egypt?
We generally do not allow the entire population of any nation to be pained with a single brush. That is already policy.
 

Deleted member 16609

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,828
Harlem, NYC
This site is a private community that has set standards of conduct. If suddenly there was an influx of racists to this site, we would not start allowing racism, for example.
Not the same and you know it. I'm not going to bring up an abundance of examples that the members here already brought up. But this sets a bad president and I'll will gather other members to PM the Admins about such policy because I only see you in these type of threads so excuse me for being a tad suspicious. But for now, I have to follow it out of respect.
 

CynicalSyndie

Member
Apr 16, 2018
524
The Israeli government is treating the Palestinians like the Russian Tsars treated the Jews. They're kept in their own little areas and every so often the ruling class unleashes violence to remind the underclass who rules the roost.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
So it's fine to call the Israeli government Nazi-like.

What about Nazi-lite?

Disclaimer: the user saenima is not, in any way, shape or form comparing the fascist State of Israel with the fascist State of 1930's Germany. Such comparisons are in bad taste and the user saenima reneges on them with a sad face emoji.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
It's not. We feel the comparison is wrong to make, period, the same way we feel other things are wrong, period.

You are free to disagree with our decision, but that is the decision.
Again I don't know who we is. It could have been anyone of the administration this. and one oh the things this website said it was going to do was a open community that we all have a say in what's going on. And sadly that has not been a thing.
 

Karasseram

Member
Jan 15, 2018
1,358
Well to be honest I never liked how ERA and other american communities have watered down the term nazi. When you call everyone right wing nazi including your red neck trump maga hat wearing idiot neighbour a nazi you water the term down in my honest opinion. The Nazi regime is unparelled in modern times for its cruelty.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Not the same and you know it. I'm not going to bring up an abundance of examples that the members here already brought up. But this sets a bad president and I'll will gather other members to PM the Admins about such policy because I only see you in these type of threads so excuse me for being a tad suspicious. But for now, I have to follow it out of respect.
Suspicious about what?

I'm speaking up in this thread because I'm trying to ensure that these threads can continue to exist, because it's important to talk about what happening in Palestine. The other option is a closed thread, which is not what we want to happen.
 
Oct 25, 2017
523
Huh.. I guess what I read about the Zionist Union wasn't accurate or is outdated? Maybe their policies are lies like Republicans. So basically, they are like the FDR Democrats, mainly the the left economically but willing to toss the Palestinians to the wolves?

What I read, says they want to reopen talks, but I guess that could be anything. So the Israelis who actually want change have no hope of obtaining it without outside pressure? That is lame. They will have 2 more decades of waiting or even more depending on how well the far-left does in capturing U.S politics and depending on who becomes president.
Chikor can talk about this much better than I can but "reopening peace talks" can mean anything. The Democrats are also in favor of opening peace talks but they also don't consider the dignity or lives of Palestinians particularly relevant, which is why almost all of them will unconditionally support mass slaughter of Palestinians. Zionist Union did not have any objections to the slaughter of Gazans that happened recently, for instance.

Even if they were really sincere about peace, polling for the next Israeli election shows that they're about to get slaughtered and lose half their seats in the Knesset.

also maybe this isn't clear to you but representation in the Knesset is allocated proportionally to the number of votes each party gets, so it is impossible for "vote splitting" to occur. of the two zionist parties that can even be sort of described as left of center, ZU and Meretz will probably hold less than 20 seats combined after the next election.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
The Israeli government is treating the Palestinians like the Russian Tsars treated the Jews. They're kept in their own little areas and every so often the ruling class unleashes violence to remind the underclass who rules the roost.
Incase of the Palestinians, they're mere existence is troubling for the Israeli government.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Again I don't know who we is. It could have been anyone of the administration this. and one oh the things this website said it was going to do was a open community that we all have a say in what's going on. And sadly that has not been a thing.
It's a decision reached by the administration and moderation team collectively, and we all enforce it. No such policy is made by one person.
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
The Nazi comparisons are not that accurate anyway. You should refer to the South African apartheid regime if you want striking parallels. The Palestinians are basically the Bantu population.
 

Psittacus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,945
You're reading it very wrong.
Even if you put the Zionist Union as left wing (and you kinda shouldn't, like, they had no problem doing shit like what is talked about in this thread) the left wing block cannot dream to reach 60 MPs.
The problem is not splitting of the votes, its that the electorate in Israel is really right wing.
That's the real core of the problem. A vast majority of the electorate are repeatedly voting for this.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
We are a real "stickler" about the Nazi comparison only.

But we don't want that. The Israel and Palestine situation is too important, it deserves the attention and the criticism of Israel.

I'm sorry you feel it's dumb, I really do. It's not a perfect policy, but Nazis are not just another group of fascists for any number of reasons, especially when invoked in a topic about Israel.

Again, I understand many of you disagree with this policy. That doesn't make you antisemitic, or bad, or anything of the sort. But the policy is set, so please continue to talk about this issue without violating it. This is too important a topic to ignore.

That's why it's such a powerful (and relevant!) comparison, though. For the nation of Israel, a nation founded in the wake of a genocide against the Jewish people, one which wiped out 30-40% of all living Jews, to turn around and engage in ethnic cleansing against a minority ethnic group inside Israel, it speaks to how perverse the Israeli leadership has been. I'm not saying that it's a 1:1 comparison, either, because it's not. Not yet. But this is why we have to be vigilant against fascism. Even if the perpetrators are past victims, or descended from past victims, of the very same.

Add me to the list of posters disappointed in the policy. I can't imagine ERA, generally a left-leaning forum, having a red text admonition equivocating both sides on any other human rights topic. This is typical of the public debate about Israeli human rights violations in the US. The argument always has to be framed in a way that whitewashes Israel's behavior. That's wrong and it shouldn't be the policy here.
 

Windrunner

Sly
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,517
We have taken a hard stance on this issue because we feel it is the right thing to do. If there are any individual bans that the recipients' feel were unjustified, they can ask for clarification or reconsideration.

You're at odds with and are alienating a lot of members. I can understand the stance (even if I feel the blanket bannings are unhelpful) but you're affording Israel and its citizens (who have elected successive governments hell bent on ethnic cleansing for decades) a level of protection in the ways they are criticised that Trump, his supporters, Florida, the police, Brexiters etc are never given here, when really all these fuckers should be fair game for a slagging without people having to feel like they're walking on eggshells and without having a wall of red mod text at the top of OPs. We don't have "NOT ALL TRUMP VOTERS" emblazoned in red at the top of every topic related to the orange fucker so I don't see why it's necessary to have a "not all Israelis" warning here.
 

4859

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,046
In the weak and the wounded
Not the same and you know it. I'm not going to bring up an abundance of examples that the members here already brought up. But this sets a bad president and I'll will gather other members to PM the Admins about such policy because I only see you in these type of threads so excuse me for being a tad suspicious. But for now, I have to follow it out of respect.


I'll admit era has definitely had growing pains...

But in all honesty, 'these kinds of threads' are EXACTLY where I would expect a moderator to be following along, keeping up with the flow, context, and the nuance of the discussion.


I definitely prefer that to a moderator stepping into a thread glancing at surface value, and completely misreading the situation.


As for the actual subject, I still can't come up with words.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
That's why it's such a powerful (and relevant!) comparison, though. For the nation of Israel, a nation founded in the wake of a genocide against the Jewish people, one which wiped out 30-40% of all living Jews, to turn around and engage in ethnic cleansing against a minority ethnic group inside Israel, it speaks to how perverse the Israeli leadership has been. I'm not saying that it's a 1:1 comparison, either, because it's not. Not yet. But this is why we have to be vigilant against fascism. Even if the perpetrators are past victims, or descended from past victims, of the very same.

Add me to the list of posters disappointed in the policy. I can't imagine ERA, generally a left-leaning forum, having a red text admonition equivocating both sides on any other human rights topic. This is typical of the public debate about Israeli human rights violations in the US. The argument always has to be framed in a way that whitewashes Israel's behavior. That's wrong and it shouldn't be the policy here.
You don't need to invoke Nazis to make your points about Israel today. Nothing is being whitewashed, there is no "both sides."
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
You're at odds with and are alienating a lot of members. I can understand the stance (even if I feel the blanket bannings are unhelpful) but you're affording Israel and its citizens (who have elected successive governments hell bent on ethnic cleansing for decades) a level of protection in the ways they are criticised that Trump, his supporters, Florida, the police, Brexiters etc are never given here, when really all these fuckers should be fair game for a slagging without people having to feel like they're walking on eggshells and without having a wall of red mod text at the top of OPs. We don't have "NOT ALL TRUMP VOTERS" emblazoned in red at the top of every topic related to the orange fucker so I don't see why it's necessary to have a "not all Israelis" warning here.
For the third time, we generally don't allow any blanket condemnation for the whole population of any nation. There is nothing at odds here, it is not an Israel-Specific policy.
 

Garjon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,013
This is genocide, pure and simple. And while everyone is bickering about what historical humanitarian atrocity is best to compare it to, many more Palestinians are being displaced and systematically killed.

The fact that the Israeli government is not being unilaterally condemned by every other democratic nation on Earth is highly disturbing.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,667
I just want to know if in 2020 if and when the US gets a dem president if Netanyahu will sit there with a straight face and pretend he still wants a two state solution while holding his hand out for US aid. If we could get someone with half a backbone that would be great. We might have limited tools to stop what Israel is doing, but we don't have to be helping to bankroll it.

The Israeli government is treating the Palestinians like the Russian Tsars treated the Jews. They're kept in their own little areas and every so often the ruling class unleashes violence to remind the underclass who rules the roost.


This is a good comparison, a shame that what happened isn't as well known as things like the Armenian genocide or apartheid.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
It's a decision reached by the administration and moderation team collectively, and we all enforce it. No such policy is made by one person.
But again I just don't know . Because most of the moderation and other major changes are done kind of in a vale of secrecy. I mean look at entertainment era to see what I'm talking about
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
For the third time, we generally don't allow any blanket condemnation for the whole population of any nation. There is nothing at odds here, it is not an Israel-Specific policy.
You're not even condoning us calling the Israeli government Nazi-like in their efforts to wipe out Palestinians. They're settlement policy and this new ruling is coming from the government.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
But again I just don't know . Because most of the moderation and other major changes are done kind of in a vale of secrecy. I mean look at entertainment era to see what I'm talking about
Well, ok. If I was trying trying to do this under the radar I would be doing a real bad job of it.
You're not even condoning us calling the Israeli government Nazi-like in their efforts to wipe out Palestinians. They're settlement policy and this new ruling is coming from the government.
No, we are not. But is making that comparison more important than your actual point?
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
I just want to know if in 2020 if and when the US gets a dem president if Netanyahu will sit there with a straight face and pretend he still wants a two state solution while holding his hand out for US aid. If we could get someone with half a backbone that would be great. We might have limited tools to stop what Israel is doing, but we don't have to be helping to bankroll it.

Netenyahu has been pretty vehemently opposed to a legitimate Two State Solution for about 20 years now. On the world stage he talks about Israel's desire for a peaceful solution, but when back home talking to his base/supporters he's all about condemning Palestine and promising he will never sign an agreement for such a solution.

It's interesting because the Israeli Government employs the same tactics as one of their fiercest rivals in the region—Iran—when it comes to countries who oppose their agenda/views. Unfortunately the difference is that Iran now has a streak of negotiating in good faith with countries like the US and is moderating their views, but Israel seems to be more averse to negotiations at this point and the hardliners seem more in control than they were 10 years ago.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
Yes but we have to think about the feeling of the 17%, tho.

Public opinion can be wrong. 72% of Americans supported the Iraq War when it started. Something like 83% of Americans support Voter ID Laws—which only accomplish disenfranchising legitimate voters. Something like 40% of Republicans now have favorable views of Vladimir Putin's and Kim Jung-Un.
 

effingvic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,285
Will Western leaders ever say anything or continue to plug their ears and look the other way as usual?

not specific to this action but Israelis broadly support the actions of the military towards Palestinians. 83% of Israelis support the IDF's mass slaughter of Gazans earlier for example https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...strongly-support-shooting-of-gaza-protesters/

Weren't many Israeli civilians watching IDF bombings like it was some kind of sporting event?
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
I think what most posters are eluding to is when Israels government is doing what it is your highest priority is making sure one facist regime isn't compared to another.
By that same token, their highest priority is making the comparison instead of actually discussing what is currently happening.

We have rules, and those rules are going to be enforced, so following them and actually talking about what's important is the logical step.
 

LordFish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
494
Israel still going full Principality of Zeon i see.

Wait is that too close to Nazis?
Ok, what about:

Israel still going full Galactic Empire?

Israel still going full Kingdom of Marley?

Israel still going full Orte Empire?

Israel still going full ZAFT?
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
No, we are not. But is making that comparison more important than your actual point?

Of course not, however people should be free to make this comparison. Most only understand atrocities as compared to the Holocaust. Not everyone knows about what Russian Tsars did to Jews or the Holomodor. Everyone knows Nazi Germany. But it's also horrible that despite what Israel is doing, despite the atrocities you admittedly want us to discuss, you are handwringing over an apt comparison and offering confusing rules. Don't make comparisons, but calling Netanhyahu Nazi-like is alright, but you can't say the same for the government despite them carrying out Netanyahu's will.
 

Playco Armboy

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,406
The majority of Matt's points boil down to "you don't HAVE to compare the Israeli government to Nazis, so therefore you can't".
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271

TarNaru33

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,045
Chikor can talk about this much better than I can but "reopening peace talks" can mean anything. The Democrats are also in favor of opening peace talks but they also don't consider the dignity or lives of Palestinians particularly relevant, which is why almost all of them will unconditionally support mass slaughter of Palestinians. Zionist Union did not have any objections to the slaughter of Gazans that happened recently, for instance.

Even if they were really sincere about peace, polling for the next Israeli election shows that they're about to get slaughtered and lose half their seats in the Knesset.

also maybe this isn't clear to you but representation in the Knesset is allocated proportionally to the number of votes each party gets, so it is impossible for "vote splitting" to occur. of the two zionist parties that can even be sort of described as left of center, ZU and Meretz will probably hold less than 20 seats combined after the next election.

Yes, sorry, "vote splitting" is the wrong term to use. I thought the ZU party and the Joint List were on the same side on the Palestinian plight when I was thinking of how they are hurting each other, but now I understand that ZU party does not care about Palestinians to do anything.

This issue won't be handled correctly for a long time then.
 
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