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California sues Activision/Blizzard for employment discrimination because of sex, retaliation, discrimination & harassment, unequal pay
- Thread starter Seri
- Start date
- News Activision/Blizzard
Agreed. It's a disappointing response, and it seems like that's as close to an official response as the forum's gonna get.
Yeah, when I started coming to this forum was at the end of last year, I was surprised about how the Cyberpunk stuff was handled, and thought that was normal, it results that not only was it made after a lot of users here spoke out, but it was pretty much the exception to the rule, users here shouldn't have to beg the leadership of Resetera to take some kind of stance or action against this kinds of practices.
After the tasteful way in which the mod team dealt with the whole Cyberpunk fiasco, I never expected them to face this situation in such a flaccid manner. "Shit is fucked everywhere, so why bother trying to change anything at all?" is definitely not the statement I want to hear coming from a community that wants to make everyone feel accepted and safe.
This ain't it, mods. Guiding people towards charities is fine and all, but being passive and quiet about this is quite the craptastic response. Someone like Jim Sterling might get a bad rap because they bring up the same issues over and over, but I am definitely thankful that they keep banging on that drum of theirs ad-nauseam. This shit shouldn't get a pass, no matter how "normal" it might seem to you.
As mentioned before, this deserves a sticky on every Activision-Blizzard thread, that's the bare minimum. The same goes for every single one of the companies that try to pull shit like this, I for one will absolutely not give my money to any of them if I am aware of any messed up stuff going on behind the curtains. Hell, playing indies for the rest of my life sounds like pure bliss at this point.
GG mod team. You'll ban people for having an opinion that goes against your own, but you won't act on this? Fucking ban me then because it would do me the favor of not coming back here. Your lack of action taken is just as bad as the "both sides" BS we see so often that you claim to be opposed to. Everything you claim to stand for is a farce to keep the masses pleased up until now. For some reason this is the hill you want to die on. I can't even come up with any words as to why this is where the line is drawn, but here we are and you drew it. Good fucking bye.
At this point, Actiblizz is too massive to fall. Just shrug, get in line, accept the fact that nothing will happen, and embrace your dear friend named capitalism.
Are we going to get disclaimers at least? There is just so much shit coming out of here, that it would be embarrassing if Diablo 2 or whatever hype threads come around without anything.
It's ok though. All of the companies are bad, so that makes it perfectly fine!
What is weird about that answer is that no one is asking to do this just with Activision-Blizzard. If we do it with every publisher or developer with issues that we know of, is that such a bad thing? We should do better than this.
The mod response is fine, I don't know what the hell you all want them to do. Discussion about these issues is not being silenced, we can talk about it and condemn Activision as much as we want, and always have a thread or multiple ones on the front page about it.
And they're right, stopping talk about every problematic studio would mean closing the forum. It'd just be counter productive posturism.
Stop inventing things to be angry about, B-Dubs said the exact contrary of what you're saying here
And they're right, stopping talk about every problematic studio would mean closing the forum. It'd just be counter productive posturism.
Who the fuck has said that.
Stop inventing things to be angry about, B-Dubs said the exact contrary of what you're saying here
well, there already is a message that links to this thread in Activision-Blizzard game OT's
Simp for Era mods all you want, but it's clear as day where they stand. Their stand is half assed and safe for them and the forum. Fuck that.
Sometimes I seriously wonder if people like you aren't trolls from off site doing their best to stir up shit and bring the site down
User banned (permanent): hostility to members and staff, inflammatory rhetoric over multiple posts.
Really? While may not post a ton, you can clearly look and see that this is not true. Are you really so incapable of doing even the bare minimum before making a post like this? Sorry that I'm not going to pucker lips and kiss the collective bottoms of those running the place if they are a part of the problem.
I think one of the takeaways over the past week is that there are likely incidents like the ones seen at Activision-Blizzard in at least every major studio, if not mid tier and among indies as well, and we just don't hear about it. This is such a common problem that to take the stance that the site shouldn't allow discussion of games produced by companies who have protected and allowed sexual discrimination/abuse to go unaddressed would be tantamount to banning discussion of, realistically, most notable games. I don't think the answer is to do or say nothing, but I understand why they're hesitating to ban further discussion of Activision-Blizzard games. I suppose you could say "only studios we currently know about", but you're still getting into the territory of banning a huge chunk of the AAA space. Off the top of my head: Activions-Blizz, Ubisoft, Insomniac, Naughty Dog, and Riot are studios whose games would fall under this classification. Those alone constitute a huge amount of discussion on this site. Maybe a single thread per game with an initial post detailing the numerous allegations at the start of each page, like for Cyberpunk, would be justified, but idk if that solution scales with multiple games.
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So are "hype threads" still allowed (with a disclaimer)? I feel like we should maybe not let those stick around at all until/unless Activision Blizzard substantially improves themselves.
Honest questions: do you think having normal hype threads about different games and e-sports events sends the best message about this situation? Do you think that locking threads brainstorming different suggestions is a good idea, too? And finally, are you fully convinced no other idea would work without trying them or at least having a site-wide discussion about what to do?
If they're hesitating, maybe it's good to have a discussion with every member and then reach a decision the majority agrees with.
It's defeatist and somewhat irresponsible to claim that every publisher and studio big and small has sexual assault and abuse of power issues, let alone on the scale of these recently revealed horrors, but if they honestly feel that way and that prohibiting PR for offenders once abuses come to light is pointless then it seems like continuing Gaming side at all is a bad idea.
I don't think that's logistically possible or reasonable. It's a nice idea, but the site mods have to make decisions without consulting the majority of members, there's just too many people here to qualitatively poll every member. They could make a poll I guess, but then we're getting into the territory of "is this a well made poll", "where is x option", etc., and given the fraught discussions around Cyberpunk last year I'm pretty sure the entire situation would break down quickly. Personally, I think the question to ask is "is it better that people discuss this game/company here, on Resetera, or not?", with my primary concern being: are people getting the context around a given game/studio? If discussion are allowed here, there is a 0% chance someone remains unaware of the rampant misogyny and sexual abuse running through Acti-Blizz, and there are ~generally~ good protections in place to shut down bad faith discussion. There's no guarantee someone will have an equivalent space outside of Era.
I feel like in a case on this scale, where everything is so ridiculously public, third party investigators have found smatterings of evidence of abuse, and other sites have no problem not covering ActiBlizz news, the mod message gives off a sense of "This would be inconvenient to moderate."
Like yeah, abuse does happen at other publishers/developers, but they're not being sued by the state of California for the sheer breadth and amount of constant abuse going on here. Really shitty look.
I think I would be more shocked to learn that such problems did not exist in every major company in the U.S. This type of behavior and mentality has been allowed to go unchecked and undiscussed (in probably all major industries) until very recently, and while I have hope that company cultures can change, I think it is naive to not assume these issues exist at an industry level. Blizzard sure seems to have gathered a critical mass of shitheads, and maybe that makes them a special case as far as moderation is concerned, but this type of behavior is 100% not limited to the few companies we know about.
IMO all those companies need to be held to task. there are so many great videogames now, there is no need to support gigantic companies making these big budget games under horrific sexist conditions.
The blizzard thing is kinda landmark, I can't think of any other game companies being sued in this way. I also think that me personally, after dropping plenty of games for having sexist characters, its a no brainer to drop games for a disgusting sexist company culture. This forum started because the guy running the old one was a sexual harassing piece of garbage, after all.
I think it's really messed up to write them a pass because WoW, League or Overwatch or AC is fun, or whatever. Or everyone is doing it. Especially after that one guy went from blizzard to riot. Letting people get away with this shit makes it fester and spread. If everyone is doing it burn em all down until they stop.
You're free to believe whatever you want. In fact, if you truly believe the whole industry is rotten than you also should be fine with no longer promoting it.
At an absolute minimum, I think any thread about an Activision or an Ubisoft game, should get the Cyberpunk treatment, where either a mod handles it, or someone who can ACTUALLY BE TRUSTED does (ie avoid the shit with the chud who was handling the Cyberpunk OT).
While I do get the generation notion of "every company is shit, and we shouldn't ban the conversations of one and not the others" I think there's a balancing act between using the typical "no ethical consumption under capitalism" line which to me is constantly used as a scapegoat to excuse whatever horrific developer/publisher you just bought a game from. That balancing act in my opinion should come in the form of actively supporting and promoting groups and charities like these and making it a point to constantly spread awareness as to the issues at a certain company, and also promoting said groups and charities.
If you ever find yourself buying an Activision game from now on, perhaps consider donating an equal sum of money to the groups in that thread, and if you can't then just continue talking about the horrific shit Activision is doing, and encourage others to donate. Some action is better than none, and even if that action is as little as just retweeting stories of victims, and just spreading the word, it's all better than nothing.
People can do better and when your constantly just using "no ethnical consumption under capitalism" as a catch 22 to do whatever the fuck you want, it reeks of defeatism and wanting to just put your excitement for a game above what is actually happening.
While I do get the generation notion of "every company is shit, and we shouldn't ban the conversations of one and not the others" I think there's a balancing act between using the typical "no ethical consumption under capitalism" line which to me is constantly used as a scapegoat to excuse whatever horrific developer/publisher you just bought a game from. That balancing act in my opinion should come in the form of actively supporting and promoting groups and charities like these and making it a point to constantly spread awareness as to the issues at a certain company, and also promoting said groups and charities.
If you ever find yourself buying an Activision game from now on, perhaps consider donating an equal sum of money to the groups in that thread, and if you can't then just continue talking about the horrific shit Activision is doing, and encourage others to donate. Some action is better than none, and even if that action is as little as just retweeting stories of victims, and just spreading the word, it's all better than nothing.
People can do better and when your constantly just using "no ethnical consumption under capitalism" as a catch 22 to do whatever the fuck you want, it reeks of defeatism and wanting to just put your excitement for a game above what is actually happening.
Or just skip buying the game and donate.
It's just videogames. no game is essential
absolutely, hell this is what I try to do most of the time, but also if there's a game I just really want, I do tend to go the route of buying used as well. I've been avoiding buying Activision games well before this story broke, and it was because Kotick donating money to GOP candidates.
"There's no ethical consumption in capitalism". Games, like all products, are inherently compromised due to the conditions they're made in. You're not required to abstain from something on the grounds that it compromised, otherwise you'd abstain from basically everything. In other words:
I hope you don't like using a computer or wearing clothes, cause I got some bad new for you.
@ABetterABK on Twitter
1: The outpouring of support for us that we've seen has been breathtaking. Over 3000 current employees signed our open letter to ABK leadership. Over 500 people attended an in-person walkout during the middle of a pandemic to speak out in solidarity with the victims in the lawsuit.
2: Over 1000 people walked out with us virtually. Thank you all, from the bottom of our hearts. We aren't done yet, that we can promise you. #ABetterABK #EndAbuseInGaming
1: The outpouring of support for us that we've seen has been breathtaking. Over 3000 current employees signed our open letter to ABK leadership. Over 500 people attended an in-person walkout during the middle of a pandemic to speak out in solidarity with the victims in the lawsuit.
2: Over 1000 people walked out with us virtually. Thank you all, from the bottom of our hearts. We aren't done yet, that we can promise you. #ABetterABK #EndAbuseInGaming
"There's no ethical consumption in capitalism". Games, like all products, are inherently compromised due to the conditions they're made in. You're not required to abstain from something on the grounds that it compromised, otherwise you'd abstain from basically everything. In other words:
I hope you don't like using a computer or wearing clothes, cause I got some bad new for you.
That comic is criticizing the point you are trying to make, it's not defending or reinforcing it.
the problem with your incredibly clever meme usage is that I don't actually believe every publisher and developer is rotten, which is why I feel like the staff statement is defeatist and irresponsible."There's no ethical consumption in capitalism". Games, like all products, are inherently compromised due to the conditions they're made in. You're not required to abstain from something on the grounds that it compromised, otherwise you'd abstain from basically everything. In other words:
I hope you don't like using a computer or wearing clothes, cause I got some bad new for you.
I'm not spiraling off into a discussion into the ethics of capitalism in order to avoid addressing the actual issue of corporate-sponsored sexual abuse like some people are.
There shouldn't be a problem with tailoring how some businesses and their ventures are discussed on an ostensibly progressive board
I don't disagree with you. As I said a few posts back ActiBlizz seems to be particularly bad and we shouldn't do nothing light of these stories(personally I think there should be a moratorium on explicitly positive or news threads), but it is straight up naive to think similar issues do not exist at many other publishers. Do literally all developers or publishers have these issues? Of course not, and I don't think I ever made that claim. I'm coming from the position of once a company gets big enough, it's bound to have a sexual harassment incident come up, and judging by how such incidents are handled not just at many games companies, but by companies across all business sectors, the usual response is to sweep it under the rug. We only know about Blizzard because the rug couldn't fucking cover that shit any more. Trying to be realistic in the face of how we know big businesses operate in the U.S is not avoiding the issue.
What I'm fully convinced of is that site-wide discussion inevitably ends up in bloodbath, with people being at each other throats while others focus on insulting the mod team. And that's usually how brainstorming threads go, so it's no wonder they get locked. It's frustrating, but it's not surprising.
I do hope there won't be normal hype threads about Activision-Blizzard games anytime soon, but I also expect the users here to be responsible. Like, I can't imagine the Diablo remaster thread in september to not have a serious disclaimer about the situation, if not by the user who makes it, then by the mod team. Most people here won't let the issue fade away, and mods won't stop them from talking about it.
Not really, the other poster essentially to me to stop "promoting" games given that I implicitly assume similar issues exist at other publishers we don't know about, which is a similar argument to "you can't enjoy something while accepting that it's compromised". I like video games, and I try my best to actively avoid the products of shitty work environments, but I, as well as probably everyone else on this site, have paid for compromised products made by people who were mistreated without my knowledge. I can't control that, but people like the poster like to chime in and say you shouldn't consume anything that is the byproduct of a flawed system. Hence the meme.
I always felt like this was made because the person was mad they got called out on probably having the latest iphone or something."There's no ethical consumption in capitalism". Games, like all products, are inherently compromised due to the conditions they're made in. You're not required to abstain from something on the grounds that it compromised, otherwise you'd abstain from basically everything. In other words:
I hope you don't like using a computer or wearing clothes, cause I got some bad new for you.
I personally feel like the lesson we should take from "all companies are bad" is to take a closer look at other companies and criticize them accordingly rather than taking it easier on Activision-Blizzard. For example, maybe uncritically recommending FFXIV to lapsed WoW players isn't the best reaction to this fiasco?
Users here were definitely not responsible about the Cyberpunk 2077 situation.
This belief is false.
askagamedev (no relation) wanted to compile a list of reputable employers so people who do not feel safe where they currently work can shift to some place safe
https://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/657519694877802496/follow-up-to-the-burn-it-all-post-how-do-you said:
I remember reading that and thinking "Oh man, that's going to be a short list".
Do you know what happened?
https://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/657969683777077248/what-are-your-thoughts-on-activision-blizzards said:
Let me reiterate: He only got 3 recommendations and they were all qualified with that they recommend small pockets of the organizations that weren't rotten. Considering the industry is relatively small, a representative sample isn't that hard to get. I am sure a developer like him has connections at dozens of companies and he couldn't a get single recommendation without the weak qualifier of "at least my team is good". This isn't a formal study, but I am pretty sure a formal study would also show that companies that aren't rotten are basically a statistical error.
What you're seeing isn't the flood gates opening. You're seeing some hairline cracks spritzing water.
Aaand the commenters in the quoted tweet are accusing the author of overreacting.
never change, FFXIV stans.
you should all take some time to see the FFXIV official blog post that they linked. it's pretty gross.
Your links don't work.
If these are all English-speaking American devs than probably? I don't know what criteria people are using to narrow down their field of devs but the point is that the "they're all rotten" sentiment is being used to avoid doing anything of substance.
BB code wouldn't anchorize the quote urls , but I figure most browsers will auto detect the url to allow you right click and open link or you can highlight and paste into address bar:
https://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/657519694877802496/follow-up-to-the-burn-it-all-post-how-do-you
https://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post...hat-are-your-thoughts-on-activision-blizzards
Do you believe this is contained to the American game dev scene?
If there was an Olympics for "game dev industry with horrible sexism, racism, bigotry, work conditions, unpaid overtime/crunch, harassment, and general debauchery" - The US wouldn't even get out of the qualifying rounds.
Thanks, I eventually realized I could just copy paste🤦🏻
I don't think it's only American devs but the degree to which men at studios harass and prey on women is definitely several notches higher in America. It has a lot to do with how game companies were founded and grew, the type of men in leadership positions, and the lack of worker rights/job security.
I mean it's all relative as anecdotal but I have a hard time envisioning something like Riot's face-farting, genital-grabbing execs being allowed to run wild at places I've been
I admit I feel slightly honored that Frances Townsend blocked me on Twitter after I called her out on her bullshit.
I won't retype my entire Twitter thread here, but I want to stress that this issue isn't limited to just Activision-Blizzard. This type of bullshit goes on industry wide. It's systemic and deep-rooted. ATVI is just the latest company to have their tea spilled, but this happens at way more publishers and studios than you think. The really disheartening thing is that, internally, many employees don't have many options in order to see any kind of justice when they experience sexual harassment, discrimination, and other hostile and toxic behavior at the company. HR departments consistently fail employees brave enough to risk their livelihoods by coming forward and speaking out about their abuse. Most of the time, it results in either termination (oh, the joys of living in an "at will" employment state, where they can fire you for any reason, and proving retaliation can be very, very difficult to do if you were anything less than a 100% model employee), gaslighting the victim, dragging out the process while not taking any actions to alleviate the mental, emotional, and often physical strain on the aggrieved, or the employee finally being broken down enough by the entire process that they just leave the industry and don't look back.
If people think that the reason why there aren't many women, people of color, and other marginalized groups in the gaming industry is because we just aren't into video games, they are sorely mistaken. No. We get driven out of the industry by the constant harassment (sexual or otherwise), brow-beating, condescension, discrimination, and hostile and toxic environment that completely sucks the joy out of doing something we love: making video games.
And then cowards like Frances Townsend just make excuses, or blame victims, or gaslights them, while trying to absolve themselves of any blame. I have friends and industry peers that work at Activision-Blizzard, that have been treated horribly by Frances, among other top level execs, and this whole thing makes my blood boil. It's even more infuriating that this is happening at many, many other publishers and studios across the industry, so don't be surprised if more stories from some of your favorite publishers and studios start to come out more and more.
I'm actually looking forward to seeing these places exposed for the cesspools they are.
I won't retype my entire Twitter thread here, but I want to stress that this issue isn't limited to just Activision-Blizzard. This type of bullshit goes on industry wide. It's systemic and deep-rooted. ATVI is just the latest company to have their tea spilled, but this happens at way more publishers and studios than you think. The really disheartening thing is that, internally, many employees don't have many options in order to see any kind of justice when they experience sexual harassment, discrimination, and other hostile and toxic behavior at the company. HR departments consistently fail employees brave enough to risk their livelihoods by coming forward and speaking out about their abuse. Most of the time, it results in either termination (oh, the joys of living in an "at will" employment state, where they can fire you for any reason, and proving retaliation can be very, very difficult to do if you were anything less than a 100% model employee), gaslighting the victim, dragging out the process while not taking any actions to alleviate the mental, emotional, and often physical strain on the aggrieved, or the employee finally being broken down enough by the entire process that they just leave the industry and don't look back.
If people think that the reason why there aren't many women, people of color, and other marginalized groups in the gaming industry is because we just aren't into video games, they are sorely mistaken. No. We get driven out of the industry by the constant harassment (sexual or otherwise), brow-beating, condescension, discrimination, and hostile and toxic environment that completely sucks the joy out of doing something we love: making video games.
And then cowards like Frances Townsend just make excuses, or blame victims, or gaslights them, while trying to absolve themselves of any blame. I have friends and industry peers that work at Activision-Blizzard, that have been treated horribly by Frances, among other top level execs, and this whole thing makes my blood boil. It's even more infuriating that this is happening at many, many other publishers and studios across the industry, so don't be surprised if more stories from some of your favorite publishers and studios start to come out more and more.
I'm actually looking forward to seeing these places exposed for the cesspools they are.
I'm pretty sure you saw the Cosby Suite already. Think of the systematic problems an industry needs to have in order for something like that to only surface now despite being basically out in the open on Facebook for years.
I don't have anything to add but I just wanted to say thank you for sharing these thoughts.