It's a totally weaksauce response rooted in the "if we can't do it all, then we shouldn't do any of it" fallacy.
The argument that highlighting this current Activision Blizzard would send the wrong message is also BS. It's rooted in the idea that you are hypocritical if you are targeted in your focus. We should have conversations like this about every company, especially when the stories of abuse get blown out into the public. At minimum, a sticky of both a main Blizzard Activision thread and a "here's what you can do" thread would help.
The general vibe is: we aren't willing to do anything as a leadership team.
Yeah, when I started coming to this forum was at the end of last year, I was surprised about how the Cyberpunk stuff was handled, and thought that was normal, it results that not only was it made after a lot of users here spoke out, but it was pretty much the exception to the rule, users here shouldn't have to beg the leadership of Resetera to take some kind of stance or action against this kinds of practices.It's a totally weaksauce response rooted in the "if we can't do it all, then we shouldn't do any of it" fallacy.
The argument that highlighting this current Activision Blizzard would send the wrong message is also BS. It's rooted in the idea that you are hypocritical if you are targeted in your focus. We should have conversations like this about every company, especially when the stories of abuse get blown out into the public. At minimum, a sticky of both a main Blizzard Activision thread and a "here's what you can do" thread would help.
The general vibe is: we aren't willing to do anything as a leadership team.
can we pin this thread to the top? clearly there is no end to this cesspool of shit, but I think people should find this information easily visible and accessible all the same
I approve of this as well!yeah this should be pinned and all the info and threads conciliated here.
After the tasteful way in which the mod team dealt with the whole Cyberpunk fiasco, I never expected them to face this situation in such a flaccid manner. "Shit is fucked everywhere, so why bother trying to change anything at all?" is definitely not the statement I want to hear coming from a community that wants to make everyone feel accepted and safe.So I guess this is the answer from the mod team.
(Its the lock thread post of a thread they locked)
Pretty much "everyone is bad, so Resetera will not even put a pinned message on Activision threads", while donating to charity is good, its comes off as bad faith saying that this site cant do more, this reads as pretty tone deaf in my opinion, reading all the news that are still coming out from this, the mod team wont even take a stance and will lock any thread talking about what can Resetera do to not support this kind of companies oof.
At this point, Actiblizz is too massive to fall. Just shrug, get in line, accept the fact that nothing will happen, and embrace your dear friend named capitalism.GG mod team. You'll ban people for having an opinion that goes against your own, but you won't act on this? Fucking ban me then because it would do me the favor of not coming back here. Your lack of action taken is just as bad as the "both sides" BS we see so often that you claim to be opposed to. Everything you claim to stand for is a farce to keep the masses pleased up until now. For some reason this is the hill you want to die on. I can't even come up with any words as to why this is where the line is drawn, but here we are and you drew it. Good fucking bye.
What is weird about that answer is that no one is asking to do this just with Activision-Blizzard. If we do it with every publisher or developer with issues that we know of, is that such a bad thing? We should do better than this.So I guess this is the answer from the mod team.
(Its the lock thread post of a thread they locked)
Pretty much "everyone is bad, so Resetera will not even put a pinned message on Activision threads", while donating to charity is good, its comes off as bad faith saying that this site cant do more, this reads as pretty tone deaf in my opinion, reading all the news that are still coming out from this, the mod team wont even take a stance and will lock any thread talking about what can Resetera do to not support this kind of companies oof.
Who the fuck has said that.It's ok though. All of the companies are bad, so that makes it perfectly fine!
As mentioned before, this deserves a sticky on every Activision-Blizzard thread, that's the bare minimum.
The mod response is fine, I don't know what the hell you all want them to do. Discussion about these issues is not being silenced, we can talk about it and condemn Activision as much as we want, and always have a thread or multiple ones on the front page about it.
And they're right, banning talk about every problematic studio would mean closing the forum. It'd just be counter productive posturism.
Who the fuck has said that.
Stop inventing things to be angry about, B-Dubs said the exact contrary of what you're saying here
Sometimes I seriously wonder if people like you aren't trolls from off site doing their best to stir up shit and bring the site downSimp for Era mods all you want, but it's clear as day where they stand. Their stand is half assed and safe for them and the forum. Fuck that.
Sometimes I seriously wonder if people like you aren't trolls from off site doing their best to stir up shit and bring the site down
I think one of the takeaways over the past week is that there are likely incidents like the ones seen at Activision-Blizzard in at least every major studio, if not mid tier and among indies as well, and we just don't hear about it. This is such a common problem that to take the stance that the site shouldn't allow discussion of games produced by companies who have protected and allowed sexual discrimination/abuse to go unaddressed would be tantamount to banning discussion of, realistically, most notable games. I don't think the answer is to do or say nothing, but I understand why they're hesitating to ban further discussion of Activision-Blizzard games. I suppose you could say "only studios we currently know about", but you're still getting into the territory of banning a huge chunk of the AAA space. Off the top of my head: Activions-Blizz, Ubisoft, Insomniac, Naughty Dog, and Riot are studios whose games would fall under this classification. Those alone constitute a huge amount of discussion on this site. Maybe a single thread per game with an initial post detailing the numerous allegations at the start of each page, like for Cyberpunk, would be justified, but idk if that solution scales with multiple games.What is weird about that answer is that no one is asking to do this just with Activision-Blizzard. If we do it with every publisher or developer with issues that we know of, is that such a bad thing? We should do better than this.
Honest questions: do you think having normal hype threads about different games and e-sports events sends the best message about this situation? Do you think that locking threads brainstorming different suggestions is a good idea, too? And finally, are you fully convinced no other idea would work without trying them or at least having a site-wide discussion about what to do?The mod response is fine, I don't know what the hell you all want them to do. Discussion about these issues is not being silenced, we can talk about it and condemn Activision as much as we want, and always have a thread or multiple ones on the front page about it.
And they're right, stopping talk about every problematic studio would mean closing the forum. It'd just be counter productive posturism.
If they're hesitating, maybe it's good to have a discussion with every member and then reach a decision the majority agrees with.I think one of the takeaways over the past week is that there are likely incidents like the ones seen at Activision-Blizzard in at least every major studio, if not mid tier and among indies as well. This is such a common problem that to take the stance that the site shouldn't allow discussion of games produced by companies who have protected and allowed sexual discrimination/abuse to go unaddressed would be tantamount to banning discussion of, realistically, most games. I don't think the answer is to do or say nothing, but I understand why they're hesitating to ban further discussion of Activision-Blizzard games. I suppose you could say "only studios we currently know about", but you're still getting into the territory of banning a huge chunk of the AAA space. Off the top of my head: Activions-Blizz, Ubisoft, Insomniac, Naughty Dog, and Riot are studios whose games would fall under this classification. Those alone constitute a huge amount of discussion on this site. Maybe a single thread per game with an initial post detailing the numerous allegations at the start of each page, like for Cyberpunk, would be justified, but idk if that solution scales with multiple games.
I don't think that's logistically possible or reasonable. It's a nice idea, but the site mods have to make decisions without consulting the majority of members, there's just too many people here to qualitatively poll every member. They could make a poll I guess, but then we're getting into the territory of "is this a well made poll", "where is x option", etc., and given the fraught discussions around Cyberpunk last year I'm pretty sure the entire situation would break down quickly. Personally, I think the question to ask is "is it better that people discuss this game/company here, on Resetera, or not?", with my primary concern being: are people getting the context around a given game/studio? If discussion are allowed here, there is a 0% chance someone remains unaware of the rampant misogyny and sexual abuse running through Acti-Blizz, and there are ~generally~ good protections in place to shut down bad faith discussion. There's no guarantee someone will have an equivalent space outside of Era.If they're hesitating, maybe it's good to have a discussion with every member and then reach a decision the majority agrees with.
I feel like in a case on this scale, where everything is so ridiculously public, third party investigators have found smatterings of evidence of abuse, and other sites have no problem not covering ActiBlizz news, the mod message gives off a sense of "This would be inconvenient to moderate."So I guess this is the answer from the mod team.
(Its the lock thread post of a thread they locked)
Pretty much "everyone is bad, so Resetera will not even put a pinned message on Activision threads", while donating to charity is good, its comes off as bad faith saying that this site cant do more, this reads as pretty tone deaf in my opinion, reading all the news that are still coming out from this, the mod team wont even take a stance and will lock any thread talking about what can Resetera do to not support this kind of companies oof.
I think I would be more shocked to learn that such problems did not exist in every major company in the U.S. This type of behavior and mentality has been allowed to go unchecked and undiscussed (in probably all major industries) until very recently, and while I have hope that company cultures can change, I think it is naive to not assume these issues exist at an industry level. Blizzard sure seems to have gathered a critical mass of shitheads, and maybe that makes them a special case as far as moderation is concerned, but this type of behavior is 100% not limited to the few companies we know about.It's defeatist and somewhat irresponsible to claim that every publisher and studio big and small has sexual assault and abuse of power issues, let alone on the scale of these recently revealed horrors, but if they honestly feel that way and that prohibiting PR for offenders once abuses come to light is pointless then it seems like continuing Gaming side at all is a bad idea.
IMO all those companies need to be held to task. there are so many great videogames now, there is no need to support gigantic companies making these big budget games under horrific sexist conditions.I suppose you could say "only studios we currently know about", but you're still getting into the territory of banning a huge chunk of the AAA space. Off the top of my head: Activions-Blizz, Ubisoft, Insomniac, Naughty Dog, and Riot are studios whose games would fall under this classification. Those alone constitute a huge amount of discussion on this site.
I think I would be more shocked to learn that such problems did not exist in every major company in the U.S. This type of behavior and mentality has been allowed to go unchecked and undiscussed (in probably all major industries) until very recently, and while I have hope that company cultures can change, I think it is naive to not assume these issues exist at an industry level. Blizzard sure seems to have gathered a critical mass of shitheads, and maybe that makes them a special case as far as moderation is concerned, but this type of behavior is 100% not limited to the few companies we know about.
Or just skip buying the game and donate.If you ever find yourself buying an Activision game from now on, perhaps consider donating an equal sum of money to the groups in that thread, and if you can't then just continue talking about the horrific shit Activision is doing, and encourage others to donate.
absolutely, hell this is what I try to do most of the time, but also if there's a game I just really want, I do tend to go the route of buying used as well. I've been avoiding buying Activision games well before this story broke, and it was because Kotick donating money to GOP candidates.Or just skip buying the game and donate.
It's just videogames. no game is essential
"There's no ethical consumption in capitalism". Games, like all products, are inherently compromised due to the conditions they're made in. You're not required to abstain from something on the grounds that it compromised, otherwise you'd abstain from basically everything. In other words:You're free to believe whatever you want. In fact, if you truly believe the whole industry is rotten than you also should be fine with no longer promoting it.
"There's no ethical consumption in capitalism". Games, like all products, are inherently compromised due to the conditions they're made in. You're not required to abstain from something on the grounds that it compromised, otherwise you'd abstain from basically everything. In other words:
I hope you don't like using a computer or wearing clothes, cause I got some bad new for you.
the problem with your incredibly clever meme usage is that I don't actually believe every publisher and developer is rotten, which is why I feel like the staff statement is defeatist and irresponsible."There's no ethical consumption in capitalism". Games, like all products, are inherently compromised due to the conditions they're made in. You're not required to abstain from something on the grounds that it compromised, otherwise you'd abstain from basically everything. In other words:
I hope you don't like using a computer or wearing clothes, cause I got some bad new for you.
I don't disagree with you. As I said a few posts back ActiBlizz seems to be particularly bad and we shouldn't do nothing light of these stories(personally I think there should be a moratorium on explicitly positive or news threads), but it is straight up naive to think similar issues do not exist at many other publishers. Do literally all developers or publishers have these issues? Of course not, and I don't think I ever made that claim. I'm coming from the position of once a company gets big enough, it's bound to have a sexual harassment incident come up, and judging by how such incidents are handled not just at many games companies, but by companies across all business sectors, the usual response is to sweep it under the rug. We only know about Blizzard because the rug couldn't fucking cover that shit any more. Trying to be realistic in the face of how we know big businesses operate in the U.S is not avoiding the issue.the problem with your incredibly clever meme usage is that I don't actually believe every publisher and developer is rotten, which is why I feel like the staff statement is defeatist and irresponsible.
I'm not spiraling off into a discussion into the ethics of capitalism in order to avoid addressing the actual issue of corporate-sponsored sexual abuse like some people are.
There shouldn't be a problem with tailoring how some businesses and their ventures are discussed on an ostensibly progressive board
Honest questions: do you think having normal hype threads about different games and e-sports events sends the best message about this situation? Do you think that locking threads brainstorming different suggestions is a good idea, too? And finally, are you fully convinced no other idea would work without trying them or at least having a site-wide discussion about what to do?
Not really, the other poster essentially to me to stop "promoting" games given that I implicitly assume similar issues exist at other publishers we don't know about, which is a similar argument to "you can't enjoy something while accepting that it's compromised". I like video games, and I try my best to actively avoid the products of shitty work environments, but I, as well as probably everyone else on this site, have paid for compromised products made by people who were mistreated without my knowledge. I can't control that, but people like the poster like to chime in and say you shouldn't consume anything that is the byproduct of a flawed system. Hence the meme.That comic is criticizing the point you are trying to make, it's not defending or reinforcing it.
I always felt like this was made because the person was mad they got called out on probably having the latest iphone or something."There's no ethical consumption in capitalism". Games, like all products, are inherently compromised due to the conditions they're made in. You're not required to abstain from something on the grounds that it compromised, otherwise you'd abstain from basically everything. In other words:
I hope you don't like using a computer or wearing clothes, cause I got some bad new for you.
Users here were definitely not responsible about the Cyberpunk 2077 situation.I do hope there won't be normal hype threads about Activision-Blizzard games anytime soon, but I also expect the users here to be responsible.
I don't actually believe every publisher and developer is rotten
https://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/657519694877802496/follow-up-to-the-burn-it-all-post-how-do-you said:I actually plan on compiling a list of better employers that we can direct game devs toward instead of the hostile environments within the space.
https://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/657969683777077248/what-are-your-thoughts-on-activision-blizzards said:I put out the request for safe employers that my network would be able to feel comfortable working for, and I got three responses all came with the caveat "Well, this only applies to my current team". Three.
I personally feel like the lesson we should take from "all companies are bad" is to take a closer look at other companies and criticize them accordingly rather than taking it easier on Activision-Blizzard. For example, maybe uncritically recommending FFXIV to lapsed WoW players isn't the best reaction to this fiasco?
Users here were definitely not responsible about the Cyberpunk 2077 situation.
This belief is false.
askagamedev (no relation) wanted to compile a list of reputable employers so people who do not feel safe where they currently work can shift to some place safe
I remember reading that and thinking "Oh man, that's going to be a short list".
Do you know what happened?
Let me reiterate: He only got 3 recommendations and they were all qualified with that they recommend small pockets of the organizations that weren't rotten. Considering the industry is relatively small, a representative sample isn't that hard to get. I am sure a developer like him has connections at dozens of companies and he couldn't a get single recommendation without the weak qualifier of "at least my team is good". This isn't a formal study, but I am pretty sure a formal study would also show that companies that aren't rotten are basically a statistical error.
What you're seeing isn't the flood gates opening. You're seeing some hairline cracks spritzing water.
If these are all English-speaking American devs than probably?
Do you believe this is contained to the American game dev scene?
BB code wouldn't anchorize the quote urls , but I figure most browsers will auto detect the url to allow you right click and open link or you can highlight and paste into address bar:
https://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/657519694877802496/follow-up-to-the-burn-it-all-post-how-do-you
https://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post...hat-are-your-thoughts-on-activision-blizzards
Do you believe this is contained to the American game dev scene?
I mean it's all relative as anecdotal but I have a hard time envisioning something like Riot's face-farting, genital-grabbing execs being allowed to run wild at places I've been
I don't have anything to add but I just wanted to say thank you for sharing these thoughts.I admit I feel slightly honored that Frances Townsend blocked me on Twitter after I called her out on her bullshit.
I won't retype my entire Twitter thread here, but I want to stress that this issue isn't limited to just Activision-Blizzard. This type of bullshit goes on industry wide. It's systemic and deep-rooted. ATVI is just the latest company to have their tea spilled, but this happens at way more publishers and studios than you think. The really disheartening thing is that, internally, many employees don't have many options in order to see any kind of justice when they experience sexual harassment, discrimination, and other hostile and toxic behavior at the company. HR departments consistently fail employees brave enough to risk their livelihoods by coming forward and speaking out about their abuse. Most of the time, it results in either termination (oh, the joys of living in an "at will" employment state, where they can fire you for any reason, and proving retaliation can be very, very difficult to do if you were anything less than a 100% model employee), gaslighting the victim, dragging out the process while not taking any actions to alleviate the mental, emotional, and often physical strain on the aggrieved, or the employee finally being broken down enough by the entire process that they just leave the industry and don't look back.
If people think that the reason why there aren't many women, people of color, and other marginalized groups in the gaming industry is because we just aren't into video games, they are sorely mistaken. No. We get driven out of the industry by the constant harassment (sexual or otherwise), brow-beating, condescension, discrimination, and hostile and toxic environment that completely sucks the joy out of doing something we love: making video games.
And then cowards like Frances Townsend just make excuses, or blame victims, or gaslights them, while trying to absolve themselves of any blame. I have friends and industry peers that work at Activision-Blizzard, that have been treated horribly by Frances, among other top level execs, and this whole thing makes my blood boil. It's even more infuriating that this is happening at many, many other publishers and studios across the industry, so don't be surprised if more stories from some of your favorite publishers and studios start to come out more and more.
I'm actually looking forward to seeing these places exposed for the cesspools they are.