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CDPR is a transphobic company. It's time we stop making excuses for them.
- Thread starter Kyuuji
- Start date
I just made this account today so I can understand how this might not look legit. I just want to hear every sides opinions on the matter
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
You need to read the OP, Kyuuji put in the work and time and we all need to appreciate that, so please read it.
If you at that time need info or more questions please ask and we will be happy to answer.
You're right.
This absolutely might not look "legit".
Maybe start reading the OP first?
You're a better person than me :/
To be completely honest with you I skimmed it for key words and read those parts but by your response I'm assuming I missed a lot of important stuff
Will do, thank you very much
You really "came" at the worst time looking for awnsers. Read the OP.
Not in the least BufBaf, I'm just so damn tired and at this point it's slowly dripping back into just leaving again lol. If they refused to read it we can all ignore them.
I absolutely understand the frustration, you feel about the game a certain way, CDPR doesn't respond in the way you would like and you feel like you are not being heard. That is valid. But please, don't feel invalidated as a person because of that, I'm sure you are a very valuable person and no one should be able to tell you otherwise.
Raising concerns about the representation of CDPR is valid too. But do you really think it helps when so many here are spamming words of hatred for the people at CDPR into the Cyberpunk threads and even other social media sites? Imagine you are the visual designer creating that game advert which is offending so many people here and you come across Era, you read how many people call you transphobic because of the hard work you put into creating that advert to make the game world more believable. So many people take your art, that you created exclusively for the game world, as a political statement of your real person in the real world. How would you feel? I would feel so incredibly hurt and also would feel scared and sad because transphobia is such a horrible thing. And this is why I cannot get behind attacking the whole company so much here. Raising concerns? Sure, that is absolutely valid, but spamming hate words to CDPR in here and on other social media, is not and I firmly stand by that. Even if you are really frustrated, understandably, with arguments instead of hate words, you are always much more likely to win as that demonstrates you have a lot of empathy and logical thinking which people who really are against trans people certainly do not have.
Well that's it for me now, I hope I didn't say anything wrong and if I did I apologize.
OP
OP
All I think is that we need to spread even more awareness even if people find it annoying. Rome doesn't start in a day and we got a long way to go if we are going to be heard. And if people on this forum are renegging their commitments that's on them. I am not giving CDPR the benefit of the doubt period.
Said it before and will say it again.
You've gone above and beyond, and you shouldn't have to carry and do all that you do.
Kyrona is absolutely right, too. It's what prompted me to come in and request none of us write it, I already saw people wanting you to do it.
Hard to not be extremely suspicious of a trans man using "transgendered" and just asking questions
Why is being accused of transphobia more hurtful than the actual demonstrated transphobia?
Ok I have been nothing but polite and that was way out of line
The Trans community doesn't owe anybody who treats their very existence as a disposable joke any amount of civility. Despite that people have been incredibly civil in raising their concerns and it's a testament to them that they've been willing to keep up the fight and keep things pretty civil despite CDPR continually doubling down.
Your post only shows that you care about some hypothetical CDPR developer more than the actual Trans people who are hurt by CDPR's actions.
Oh come the fuck on. CDPR lost the benefit of the doubt a long time ago. They are not clueless, they are wilfully ignorant, so spare us the 'won't someone think of the poor devs' rhetoric.
That makes sense, and I'm sorry to have made a bad suggestion. It sounds like the best option is for the original topic creators to put a strong statement in the OT. After the last thread though that feels less likely. Hopefully they will change and add something that strongly denounces CDPR's behavior. It sucks that kind of statement has to be pushed for, but I hope it happens. The Trans community on Era has gone above and beyond trying to explain their positions, and I truly hope the OT puts CDPR's failings front and center.
If this is your first day, then maybe you don't know but the fact we see this a lot and Transgendered is indeed a slur to the majority of the community, almost all will be damn suspicious of you when you say you are Trans then use it.
It seems like the chance is high that CDPR will talk about that:
It's pretty high voted so the devs should address it!
That can't be further from the truth. Sorry if my post felt that way to you.
This sounds like how people were more worried about the Harry Potter devs than the actual people directly hurt from JK Rowling. I think the people that made the edgy manticore art can deal with criticism.
And I have been subject to a lot of abuse for having posted it as well. Which is why I can't blame people for being angry with what they have to put up with. I truly do hope they address it, but the fact of the matter remains that it is extremely hurtful and frustrating that in asking a question I have seen some of the things I have.
100 likes is nothing for what this issue is, and it's spammed with a bunch of expected bigoted replies. CDPR has made their stance clear by now.
This is your daily reminder that a company is not a person. It's fine to attack CDPR for their stances and lack of response. Attacking individual people at the company is not the same thing as attacking a company.
Playing the sad violin 'woe is me' about a hypothetical developer who is upset about their company being accused of bigotry instead of actually caring about the people impacted by the bigotry gets you a big eye roll from me. You're not slick.
I have 5 million in gold to give you for free if you're interested. It's got about as much chance of being real as CDPR does of addressing anything.
Oh boy, alot seems to have gone down overnight after I went to bed...
I'll also echo, Kyuuji's threads and posts are amazing and she can put thoughts into words so much more eloquently than I ever could. That doesn't mean she should be carrying everything on her shoulders by herself, the LGBT+ community isn't one entity and it shouldn't be likened down to one person, there's lots of others here who are also great people and it's a disgrace to Kyuuji's work to prop her up as the only trans voice to be listened to.
I'll also echo, Kyuuji's threads and posts are amazing and she can put thoughts into words so much more eloquently than I ever could. That doesn't mean she should be carrying everything on her shoulders by herself, the LGBT+ community isn't one entity and it shouldn't be likened down to one person, there's lots of others here who are also great people and it's a disgrace to Kyuuji's work to prop her up as the only trans voice to be listened to.
The devs are WELL AWARE of the transphobia after all of the incidents they've gone through. Either they're completely fine with it, or are disgusted by it but can't talk about it. There's no "poor innocent devs" here, and it's extremely tiring hearing this theoretical "think of the devs" defense that doesn't actually exist over and over again. If it were me, I'd be fucking glad people are telling my company they're awful, I'd be thinking the same goddamn thing. If I were against transphobia and tasked with making the transphobic art and for whatever reason I didn't tell them No right then and there (needing to keep the job for financial reasons, etc), the last thing I'd be feeling is sad because less than 0.01% of fans are rightfully calling it transphobic.
I'm fairly certain most folks here don't want hurt individual devs at CDPR - typically game company generalizations are aimed more at the PR team and execs who fail to address concerns, not the every day artists. The same higher ups are also the ones that presumably have NDA's that forbid artists from clarifying their intent (though I believe the quotes in the OP are from the chromanticore artist or someone otherwise involved in the process)
A solid analogue to how the generalised criticisms work would be Ubisoft in the wake of the recent allegations. Folks are dragging the company but they're not including every employee because that'd essentially involve blaming the victims of harassment who still work there. By the same token, there are almost certainly LGBT people working at CDPR who no one here would wish ill upon.
Yeah, some answers are pretty harsh and unecessary, some are very offending too which is not acceptable. However I do think that demonstrates perfectly my point I made earlier, as those comments are the direct logical result of the hateful posts made here. Your post was very civil like it should be, but most people there know very well these concerns usually come from ResetEra and thus, will instantly dismiss the concerns, which is exactly the opposite Era wants to achieve. Take a look at this post here, for example:
That explains it in a few words, basically.
This is exactly why the concerns of ResetEra would reach a much wider audience if people here would use arguments instead of calling other people all sort of nasty stuff. If Era wants to be heard, it needs to change the "fuck xy" into "What can they do better, how can we help them doing better"?
Hopefully that will happen soon because as I said, the stuff Era fights for is usually very, very good like trans-rights and being against racism. Era could achieve so much more in the gaming industry if it wants to, I'm certain of that. But it won't work the way it is now.
I'm really sorry if my opression is an inconvenience to you. Cdpr ain't gonna change shit they won't and we need to get this idea out of our heads that they ever will. They made their bed they can rot in it. We absolutely cannot hug bigots to make the problems of the world go away that ain't how this shit works.
You're trying to reason with bigots. Calling out blatant transphobic things isn't "drama". Bigots are going to be bigots no matter what.
Are you really suggesting this?
We've seen how this plays out, how the majority won't care and the good people get hurt.
How many kind young men/women/them's PoC have lost their lives and in very public ways yet we still have absolutely rampant racism..hell Monster Hunter was in the hands of a white man for one spin off and it came out filled with racist shit.
That it's still legal to kill LbGT people in so many places, that Poland the place this company is based they have lbgt free zones.
Minorities don't owe people niceties or to stop demanding better when they are being actively used/or harmed by the majority.
People like that wouldn't suddenly start listening to marginalized people because they're being nice about it. They're opposed to marginalized peoples' existence on a fundamental level, and being "nice" or "civilized" about it isn't suddenly going to change their mind. Reasoning with bigots won't suddenly make them not bigoted. People hate Resetera because it's "woke" not because it's full of argumentative people.
No, I don't think you quite understand. These people don't care where the view comes from. Sure it adds to the fire, but they would just use different ammunition. The root of the issue is that the issues I have "aren't real" to them. I have to deal with this daily, outside of discussions of video games, outside of Era. When it comes down to it, trans issues don't matter to them because many just don't value trans opinions. It doesn't matter how civil I am, or what I do. I shouldn't have to be civil to ask a question in response to a post welcoming questions.
I know you may not intend on it, but the argument is implying that the reactions against me personally are justified to some extent because of the actions of other trans people, which I can't support. You have the cause and effect mixed up, I think.
You could offer these people to take them out to dinner at a 5 star resturant and get them a steak to talk about the transphobia in the 2077, and they would say you are being a whiny sjw.
OP
OP
I'm pretty content with the reach this has achieved, considering it was primarily a post to help quell wilful ignorance in threads here. I'm not Era either, I'm a trans woman that has a vested interest alongside numerous others here in pushing back against, and highlighting, transphobic content in media. Especially that within the hobby that we enjoy and love, and the community we're a part of.
First off: how much better of a polite argument can you get than literally the OP of this thread? Across this and related threads, several people in the industry have said that this thread has been seen and received well by others in it, and a tweet linking to it was RTed around by devs and journalists as well.
Secondly: who the fuck cares what people like this random Twitter user thinks? Why should we couch all our thoughts so some random Twitter user - especially one whose account apparently exists entirely to reply to people - maybe, just maybe, doesn't immediately disagree with our criticism?
You're talking a lot about what "Era could achieve", but all you've presented as achievable is... what, some random people possibly wouldn't talk as much shit about the site? And meanwhile you absolutely aren't considering at all what it's like for the trans people posting here. They're not inherently "fighting for" for these things, they're just trying to post on here. What do they gain from having to stifle their thoughts so they have the slight chance of pleasing people who hatewatch the site?
dampflokfreund Let me put it this way. I had someone who straight up said I was one of the good ones, "unlike 95% of them" they said I was being civil about things but they were just tired of hearing about it. That person went on to like multiple other tweets in the thread about how "Trans people are still their biological gender" "There are only two genders" "You can tell a trans person from their voice anyway". Nothing I am going to do will reach that person. They have hateful views and will use the aggressiveness of people fighting for their rights as an excuse to justify and mask their actions.
You think these people care? They want us to treat them nice while they continue treating us like subhuman garbage. Bigots don't care, they make up the lie that they'd treat us better if we didn't "call people names", but they're the ones instigating this whole fucking mess and are the ones treating us like trash. They're the ones that tone police and tell us when how and where we're supposed to be concerned, they're the ones that call us sensitive SJW's, they're the ones making a fit and policing how transgender people and gender nonconforming people are supposed to exist, they are the DEFINITION of transphobia. They want us to be quiet and quit resisting so it's easier to oppress us, not so they can talk to us. LGBT+ communities have extended hands MANY, MANY times, and each time are beat down and oppressed for daring to give them the benefit of the doubt. Bigots don't want us to exist, they want us to stay under the rug and are only content with us being hidden from their eyes.
We've gotten nowhere being civil, they want us to be civil because they know they can walk all over us if we don't react and return fire. They want to control us, to silence us. They don't want a conversation with us whatsoever.
People have been civil. For a couple years, in fact. And I haven't seen a word from many regarding their concerns. The marketing and hype threads go on regardless.
Now after being ignored for so long, they get angry and NOW there's an outcry about what trans people have to say?
It sounds less like you want people to be civil so that you can talk to them, and more that they're civil so they can be ignored.
Even if it isn't your intention to paint it in this way, perhaps you can realize that's the result of your words, in the context of all this? Like, it's not helping the situation when anger has already boiled over.
I just wanna hop in to thank the people in this thread and Era's trans community in helping me understand how transphobia manifests itself in different ways. I've always considered myself to be in favor of trans rights, but interacting with the trans community here has made me see that both my knowledge regarding the subject and my support of trans people have been lacking.
Reading the discussion surrounding the issues with the game made me decide to skip the game. More recently I've learned a lot from all of you awesome people by reading this thread and I wanna keep listening and learning, so I joined my local trans non-profit organization as a monetary supporter (without any say in the organizations decision making since I'm a cishet man). I will keep donating, learning and voting to help the trans people of my country in any way I can.
The recent situation has also made me dissapointed in the forum's handling of the game's OT. Especially since a disclaimer about the issues surrounding the game sounds like a pretty simple thing to do.
Reading the discussion surrounding the issues with the game made me decide to skip the game. More recently I've learned a lot from all of you awesome people by reading this thread and I wanna keep listening and learning, so I joined my local trans non-profit organization as a monetary supporter (without any say in the organizations decision making since I'm a cishet man). I will keep donating, learning and voting to help the trans people of my country in any way I can.
The recent situation has also made me dissapointed in the forum's handling of the game's OT. Especially since a disclaimer about the issues surrounding the game sounds like a pretty simple thing to do.
Like if you wanted to argue that people should be more polite when arguing one on one with someone, I think the same thing usually applies - there is a time and a place to put in the effort to gain ground with someone, and Twitter randos are not that 99% of the time - but at least I could just see you as misguided. To argue that people should be more polite so that random people, who are not even on the site, and just happen to see their arguments might not immediately dismiss them... when the only reason they see Era posts to begin with is because they want to dismiss them... no. Come on. Think that through for a good 5 seconds.
Wake up; please.
People like that example from Twitter aren't going to turn around and start discussing in good faith if all hostilities were dropped and you reach out to them in the nicest, most sincerely positive way possible. You're dreaming.
Why is it the responsibility of posters on this site to reason with bigots? Why should anyone bother to try and reason with bigots in the first place? They aren't reasonable. Try to be civil and they'll take it as an open invitation to trash further on the groups they already hate with no repercussions.
You really can't get more civil than the OP of the very thread we're posting in right now. If reading that changes nothing in their minds, what good would placating bigots by acting like they deserve respect accomplish?
Thank you for taking the time to learn and decide you care enough to help.
There are many young folks who may benefit from it and truly it maybe one of the few lights in their life, so thank you.
Trying to police your tone for the sake of ignorant twitter people is a losing battle, regardless. Most of these people are acting in bad faith, and I don't know how those that are genuine with trying to understand couldn't realize that having some righteous indignation at this point is more than justified. This issue doesn't exist in a vacuum; it happens all the time, every day.
It may have been in bad taste, but I'll say it again.
I felt more solidarity from them in that moment than I do often times here. So I say thank you and I'll see ya in Era after life :)
Why the fuck should we entertain the idea of being civil just because of what some chuds on social media sites think of us? Bigots will be bigots, we've spent years upon years being civil, it does nothing, they don't give a toss. Why should I be civil to people who are hostile to me.
Honestly I'm done here, keep fighting the good fight everyone but honestly it's just a losing battle that is a waste of time.
Honestly I'm done here, keep fighting the good fight everyone but honestly it's just a losing battle that is a waste of time.
It's weird seeing another account of mine show up in this thread lol (The Vlad Bladder, not the other guy).
Anyway, I know you're banned now, but I don't even know what you're trying to say with that example. That person isn't complaining about tone or name-calling, there's no reason to believe that being gentler would have made them more likely to sympathize. They're saying they just want us to shut up and stop talking about it. Nothing you suggested would address that at all. If anything, it would just make it easier for people like that to get what they want and ignore us completely.
I know mods don't like when we question bans in posts, but since the ban is on a few pages ago and various people may wonder the same, I want to ask: if vestan had to be banned, and considering the reason they were, why only three days? It feels like the only thing this accomplishes is making them avoid posting here moving forward because they won't want to get banned again, and can simply be ready to talk about the game when it releases, as the ban will be lifted by then.
I don't know, I'll let the trans members say something about it, but it doesn't seem to help the community that needs to be heard.
I don't know, I'll let the trans members say something about it, but it doesn't seem to help the community that needs to be heard.
Man, this is just so depressing. This place really is just fake, perfomative woke bullshit. I really appreciate people who keep fighting the good fight, as hopeless as it is though. Shit's just disheartening.
Shiron... :(... I completely agreed with your post tbh, you were braver than I to express how I've felt.
Shiron... :(... I completely agreed with your post tbh, you were braver than I to express how I've felt.
Something something about how this place will not be "pleasant" to post in when everyone is slinging insults at eachother /s. Time and time again people get away with pure bullshit because they used pretty phrasing, while well-meaning folks get the full fury brought down on them because of "hostility".
