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ChocoBuddy

Banned
Apr 9, 2024
254
Remake was a completely normal reinterpretation of VII, a game about fighters against a mega corporation that sucks the planet dry in the name of progress up until the very end. Then in the final battle, it was somehow about the whispers and the intersection of fate. I think it's quite likely that more than a few people are weirded out and got off the train.

In the spoiler thread and see how people are mostly trying to interpret the machinations of how the multiple worlds/Aerith/Zack stuff worked instead of the any environmental theme brought by its original story. If OG FFVII was a game about our relationship with our own planet, Remake/Rebirth is a game about our own relationship with OG FFVII.

Yeah, I think this is fair. I think in Remake there was still potential for the whispers/fate stuff to come back around to the central theme, but it very much feels more like a backdrop in Rebirth. The main intrigue now is the multi world stuff and it feels like it just exists for theorycrafting and post game discussion.
 
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silentq15

Member
Aug 15, 2022
542
In the spoiler thread and see how people are mostly trying to interpret the machinations of how the multiple worlds/Aerith/Zack stuff worked instead of the any environmental theme brought by its original story. If OG FFVII was a game about our relationship with our own planet, Remake/Rebirth is a game about our own relationship with OG FFVII.
Good point, another interpretation could also be that it's still about the core theme of the OG and that's Loss but coming at it from a different angle of the feeling of wishing you could undo that past loss.

Its deep regardless of how its interpreted but yeah, I could see how that would turn folks off to it.
 

Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
589
Yeah, I think, since FFXV, the series has been good. Again, that's just me. XV is flawed, the DLC makes it better, but I never got around to finish the DLC. It was a sign of good things to come in my opinion.

My dark period was FFXII to Lightning Returns. I really liked XIII-2 and FFXII is so much better with the Job System, so gotta give them some credit.

Are you me? While I did like the exploration and secrets in XII I didn't vibe with the story, characters nor the setting. From the XIII trilogy I really like XIII-2 but couldn't get into the other two at all. I think I didn't even finish LR.
 

Sunlight

Member
Apr 22, 2019
419
It depends on how they're sold as well; console based JRPGs typically are still frontloaded everywhere. PC JRPGs often benefit from sales windows on Steam and it's more difficult to categorize their legs.

Super Mario RPG remake is going to be a pretty solid example of how frontloaded these types of games are; it sold 3.14 million in its first 6 weeks. That will end up being 75-80% of its lifetime sales worldwide in all likelihood. It may hit 4 million at some point, but that's about all that could be expected.

First quarter Super Mario RPG sales will cover weeks 7-18 and are expected around 200-300k at most. That shows how frontloaded JRPGs are everywhere; of course Japan is *even more* frontloaded than everywhere else.

FF7 Rebirth is already past week 5 in the March data and already past week 9 in real time; there aren't that many sales left to make on PS5. Obviously when it gets to PC that will be another sales window to open.
Persona 5 and Tales of Arise are two examples of good legs in western markets.


Besides typical nintendo games have legs for 3 years to 5 years. We can't judge Super Mario RPG as a frontloaded game with only 5 months of sales data.
 

Vareon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,976
Good point, another interpretation could also be that it's still about the core theme of the OG and that's Loss but coming at it from a different angle of the feeling of wishing you could undo that past loss.

Its deep regardless of how its interpreted but yeah, I could see how that would turn folks off to it.

Yeah you can see it that way, too. Either way I'm not framing this as something bad, OG FFVII was a special game in the history of the medium. But in the context of a sales thread, it might be one of the explanations as to why it had a more limited appeal than something like RE2, 3, or 4 remakes.
 

Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
589
I don't feel like Remake / Rebirth neglect the environmental aspect of the OG. I feel like it is brought up much more often in the remake games than in the OG but it has been a year or two since I played the OG.
 

Sportello

Member
Sep 15, 2020
153
Remake was a completely normal reinterpretation of VII, a game about fighters against a mega corporation that sucks the planet dry in the name of progress up until the very end. Then in the final battle, it was somehow about the whispers and the intersection of fate. I think it's quite likely that more than a few people are weirded out and got off the train.

In the spoiler thread and see how people are mostly trying to interpret the machinations of how the multiple worlds/Aerith/Zack stuff worked instead of the any environmental theme brought by its original story. If OG FFVII was a game about our relationship with our own planet, Remake/Rebirth is a game about our own relationship with OG FFVII.

This isn't really a topic for a sales thread, but one can interpret these 'multiple worlds' as being just another way of depicting the lifestream, in which case the plot and themes of Rebirth feel much more continuous with those of the OG.
 

Saito Hikari

Member
Jul 3, 2021
2,893
The thing about XIV is that it created an entire generation of Final Fantasy fans. The catch is that it created an entire generation of Final Fantasy XIV fans in particular that may not have a lot of interest in playing the other games.

There's obviously worse problems you can have than that, but I don't know if it's as simple as just thinking the XIV base will migrate over to the other games.
To be frank, we've never had a situation where this can actually be proven in regards to the PC majority of the XIV fanbase at all. Ever since XIV was launched, there has never been a day and date launch of any new major FF title on PC afterwards. Consider that it's been 10 years since then. The PC market is also hyper competitive, with new multiplatforms or PC exclusives likely taking the spotlight over late PC ports of the FF titles.

I also think a PC version could juice sales when Rebirth starts winning Game of the Year.
There is zero chance Rebirth PC is happening this year. No one in SE has even talked about it, all the attention as far as PC ports goes is being directed towards XVI instead, that's most likely happening first and probably targeting the end of the year, to minimize potential conflict with XIV Dawntrail's launch.
 
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Makoto Yuki

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,678
Are you me? While I did like the exploration and secrets in XII I didn't vibe with the story, characters nor the setting. From the XIII trilogy I really like XIII-2 but couldn't get into the other two at all. I think I didn't even finish LR.

step-brothers-did-we-just-become-best-friends.gif


I finished LR just to say I did. If I had to rate the Lightning trilogy it would be XIII-2 >>>>> XIII >>> LR.

Also, I completely agree FFXII's story, characters, and setting were not hitting. The only Ivalice I've genuinely loved was Tactics.
 

grumpybat

Member
Apr 12, 2021
556
USA
Finally got my copy this week. I've been totally out of the gaming loop since the holidays. I guess the novelty factor of the remake was used up on the first and most of the audience lost interest?
 
Jun 2, 2019
1,070
The ending is great and liked by most people now. But to see it without context of the rest of the game? Why would you?
What "most people" think has nothing to do with me. This is just my opinion.

As for the reason why I watched it, I thought the multiverse stuff was the worst part of Remake, so I needed to know where exactly this was going before buying Rebirth, particularly that scene since it is very iconic and I wanted to see it done right with modern graphics.

Unfortunately, I think they ended up doing the worst of both worlds, so to speak, including cutting stuff that shouldn't have been cut and taking the focus away from what mattered the most in that moment.

If they truly intended to change things, it would have been braver to let Aerith live, but if she was going to die anyway, then why did they change the most iconic scene in videogames? Why did they cut Cloud's speech? Why did they cut the burial scene?

As it stands, it just feels like they can't make up their minds and it's frustrating. What was the point of defeating the Arbiter of Fate in Remake if this is the end result?
 

Vaenyr

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Mar 16, 2019
923
What "most people" think has nothing to do with me. This is just my opinion.

As for the reason why I watched it, I thought the multiverse stuff was the worst part of Remake, so I needed to know where exactly this was going before buying Rebirth, particularly that scene since it is very iconic and I wanted to see it done right with modern graphics.

Unfortunately, I think they ended up doing the worst of both worlds, so to speak, including cutting stuff that shouldn't have been cut and taking the focus away from what mattered the most in that moment.

If they truly intended to change things, it would have been braver to let Aerith live, but if she was going to die anyway, then why did they change the most iconic scene in videogames? Why did they cut Cloud's speech? Why did they cut the burial scene?

As it stands, it just feels like they can't make up their minds and it's frustrating. What was the point of defeating the Arbiter of Fate in Remake if this is the end result?

We see Cloud holding her and being silent and stoic, yet there are these green glitch effects where he clearly is talking. I'm sure that we'll get the actual events (his monologue and the burial after the battle) in the third game when we'll restore his mind. Rebirth added a new setpiece to specifically show the Lifestream restoring Tifa's memories. They simply chose to do the set up in Rebirth and will follow up in the final game.
 

Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
589
What "most people" think has nothing to do with me. This is just my opinion.

As for the reason why I watched it, I thought the multiverse stuff was the worst part of Remake, so I needed to know where exactly this was going before buying Rebirth, particularly that scene since it is very iconic and I wanted to see it done right with modern graphics.

Unfortunately, I think they ended up doing the worst of both worlds, so to speak, including cutting stuff that shouldn't have been cut and taking the focus away from what mattered the most in that moment.

If they truly intended to change things, it would have been braver to let Aerith live, but if she was going to die anyway, then why did they change the most iconic scene in videogames? Why did they cut Cloud's speech? Why did they cut the burial scene?

As it stands, it just feels like they can't make up their minds and it's frustrating. What was the point of defeating the Arbiter of Fate in Remake if this is the end result?

The ongoing theory is that we only see the perspective from Cloud's mind. He still thinks she lives and that he saved her so his mind is repressing the burial scene etc. which will be revisited in P3.

As for the whispers we don't completely know yet but it seems likely that Zack could actually be alive in the same "world" as the main party.

All speculation of course.
 

StraySheep

It's Pronounced "Aerith"
Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,330
I finished LR just to say I did. If I had to rate the Lightning trilogy it would be XIII-2 >>>>> XIII >>> LR.

XIII-2 is a series highlight imo. I would probably agree with your ranking of that trilogy, but even then LR is definitely an interesting game.

This thread really is 70 pages long, huh.

70 pages of spinning the wheels and projecting personal tastes and anecdotes onto financial success.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,292
As in why would it (downpayment) affect SE reporting for rebirth but not remake.
I think you misread. I was saying Square reported Remake's sales because they exceeded expectations. They're likely not doing Rebirth's numbers because they're not as impressive. But the down-payment from Sony may have gone a long ways toward making them whole regardless.
 

reksveks

Member
May 17, 2022
3,533
I think you misread. I was saying Square reported Remake's sales because they exceeded expectations. They're likely not doing Rebirth's numbers because they're not as impressive. But the down-payment from Sony may have gone a long ways toward making them whole regardless.
I think I did.

Maybe it did go a long way. We will hopefully see if they hit their forecast in a couple of weeks. Though that may depending on accounting and how the other games perform.
 

Firmus_Anguis

AVALANCHE
Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,214
This thread really is 70 pages long, huh.
People seem to find enjoyment in games they don't like (or don't even intend to play) not doing as well.

I think a simultaneous PC release alongside the PS5 version would've helped it make a bigger impact.

In my book, this game deserves to sell +10 million, at the very least.
 

Makoto Yuki

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,678
XIII-2 is a series highlight imo. I would probably agree with your ranking of that trilogy, but even then LR is definitely an interesting game.

70 pages of spinning the wheels and projecting personal tastes and anecdotes onto financial success.

You are right, I'd say LR was interesting at least, felt like they made Final Fantasy: Majora's Mask.

Also, you hit the bullseye of how this thread got to 70 pages.
 

Mephissto

Member
Mar 8, 2024
589
I would say 5 points better is a lot. Especially if you are already on the higher end of the score. There are lots of 87 games, there aren't that many 92+ ones.

Rebirth score is also dragged down a bit further because of the rather controversial ending but that is part of the package

Edit: This is 5 year old data but illustrates the point: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/s/9CmML9R7V5
 
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Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,462
I would say 5 points better is a lot. Especially if you are already on the higher end of the score. There are lots of 87 games, there aren't that many 92+ ones.
Yeah, gonna agree with this. that's the different between a bunch of 8s and a bunch of 10s. There's a reason it's so coveted.

Edit: 87 is still great though.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,632
We got two very well received FF games year after year and it tore us apart...

Even now they're picking apart the difference of 5 points in a review aggregate!!!!

I kind of worry about the discourse if Dawntrail scores above a 92.

Probably won't be easy given toping Endwalker's score which closed out a decade of stories means landing an extremely strong first impression.

But yeah, FF is doing so well critically and it's justly causing fights here...
 

vio55555

Member
Apr 11, 2024
271
Persona 5 and Tales of Arise are two examples of good legs in western markets.

Besides typical nintendo games have legs for 3 years to 5 years. We can't judge Super Mario RPG as a frontloaded game with only 5 months of sales data.
Persona 5 (if you're looking at Royal) was frontloaded across its initial release + ports, so I'm not quite sure what you're referring to: yes there were later port releases that juiced sales again, but those were each frontloaded to me as well. Take the PS4 release for example: 1.4 million in its early months; 900k after July 2020.

Tales of Arise for example: of its 3 million sales through Feb 2024, around 50% of which took place in the first 6 weeks.

Nintendo games that sell over 3 to 5 years are their evergreens. There's no JRPGs among their evergreens; those are titles like Super Mario 3D World+Bowser's Fury or Luigi's Mansion 3 or the Mario Party games or Animal Crossing. Of course the most powerful evergreens of all are Mario Kart, Smash, and 3D Mario (as well as 2D Mario).
Those games do indeed do most of their lifetime sales well after their launch.

I'm a huge Super Mario RPG fan, but I would be very skeptical that it has more than a couple hundred thousand sales left after its first 6 weeks. That's the nature of JRPG markets worldwide. Yes it will shift some units during 50% off sales weeks in the future, but beyond that there won't be that much sales. 75-80% of that game's lifetime sales worldwide are likely done. It gets very hard to sell additional console units of these types of games outside of their launch windows.

Again, I do stress that Japan is the most frontloaded of markets, but so are most others as well for JRPGs. They're just a different animal than other games.

FF7 Rebirth is no different; most of its lifetime sales for PS5 have likely occurred by now (9 weeks in) unless there's some sort of massive change in dynamics here.
 
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Sportello

Member
Sep 15, 2020
153
I kind of worry about the discourse if Dawntrail scores above a 92.

Probably won't be easy given toping Endwalker's score which closed out a decade of stories means landing an extremely strong first impression.

But yeah, FF is doing so well critically and it's justly causing fights here...
People don't take MC scores for expansions or dlc that seriously, so it won't be a huge issue.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,686
I kind of worry about the discourse if Dawntrail scores above a 92.

Probably won't be easy given toping Endwalker's score which closed out a decade of stories means landing an extremely strong first impression.

But yeah, FF is doing so well critically and it's justly causing fights here...
No one really gives a shit about review scores for MMO expansions

they are a joke
 

Zuly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,192
Puerto Rico
Reviews for FF14 expansions only focus on the initial story and ignore everything. It's a disservice to all the work they put in to only care about what amounts to basically 25% of the content of an expansion.
 

oty

Member
Feb 28, 2023
4,595
People seem to find enjoyment in games they don't like (or don't even intend to play) not doing as well.
erm, you mean the people who are saying the industry and it's consumers are at fault because their game is not selling well? i still can't believe that was actually said lmfao

everyone knows the reasons why the game is not selling, but there's a good amount of people who really don't think, or don't want to think, that Rebirth and/or SE have any,, or minimal, blame in it lol
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,632
People don't take MC scores for expansions or dlc that seriously, so it won't be a huge issue.
No one really gives a shit about review scores for MMO expansions

they are a joke

It's funny how quickly you're proving my point with the "it doesn't count" argument.

Critical acclaim is critical acclaim and FFXIV has used that to it's advantage to grow.

And either way, continued high scores for the series is a good thing that should be celebrated, rather than fodder for infighting.
 

Vaenyr

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Mar 16, 2019
923
I kind of worry about the discourse if Dawntrail scores above a 92.

Probably won't be easy given toping Endwalker's score which closed out a decade of stories means landing an extremely strong first impression.

But yeah, FF is doing so well critically and it's justly causing fights here...

As others pointed out, MMO expansions are a different beast. Far fewer people review them and it's usually folks who've played the previous ones, so they're already invested.

DT will probably score rather well, just like the previous FFXIV expansions.
 

xenosys83

Member
Mar 19, 2024
297
I would say 5 points better is a lot. Especially if you are already on the higher end of the score. There are lots of 87 games, there aren't that many 92+ ones.

Rebirth score is also dragged down a bit further because of the rather controversial ending but that is part of the package

Edit: This is 5 year old data but illustrates the point: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/s/9CmML9R7V5

At the higher end of the scale, 5 is a lot. You're talking about a game that's the joint 14th best scoring game of the last decade over one which is the joint 150th on OC.

Critically, you're talking about generational games over really good ones.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,632
As others pointed out, MMO expansions are a different beast. Far fewer people review them and it's usually folks who've played the previous ones, so they're already invested.

DT will probably score rather well, just like the previous FFXIV expansions.

Saying this in a Rebirth thread where no one played it without playing Remake and already being invested is funny.

Damn, we're not even close to reviews for it and people want to argue about it...
 

thedracocat

Member
Jun 13, 2022
455
72 pages of this, I'm sure SOMEONE has mentioned the number of PS4 consoles in people's hands vs the number of PS5 consoles, right??
 

Kuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,074
I've never seen a place get as venomous about XIV's critic scores than here lol. Not even WoW communities get this salty about them.

People do want to read about how the new expansion handles story and MSQ dungeons/raids which reviews can cover. Its not a small number either with both Shadowbringers and Endwalker receiving around 50 reviews each. MMOs are constantly updating and the reviews can't cover post expansion patches that add more content or tweak systems but they still have their place. Generally they don't matter as much as how the community takes to the game though and we all know how successful XIV is.

I'm curious how Dawntrail will be received by players and critics as the game is getting long in the tooth and seems averse to making large changes this late in its life. The graphics update at least is a welcome change.
 

Kazhar

Member
Feb 20, 2024
157
I've never seen a place get as venomous about XIV's critic scores than here lol. Not even WoW communities get this salty about them.

And there can't be a single mention of Rebirth's review scores without someone trying to downplay it in some way or another. ("It's not that better than XVI." "Oh and what about XIV?" "Your argument is invalid because you didn't mention your love for FFXII, the very best FF")

The FF fanbase is just extremely toxic from any sides.
 

Toth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,135
Reviews for FF14 expansions only focus on the initial story and ignore everything. It's a disservice to all the work they put in to only care about what amounts to basically 25% of the content of an expansion.

Good lord is that wrong. FFXIV expansions are as long as most RPGs.
 

PshycoNinja

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
3,266
Los Angeles


Love how wholesome y'all are being. I love the XV fandom. ^_^

I am hella nostalgic for XV. That release period was magical for me. I was super suprised to learn that people did not like the game after I finished the game. Need to do replay at some point and finally get into the DLCs and the Royal Edition.

I generally I am happy where the franchise is right now. Since XV I was only let down by XVI since it just wasn't the game I wanted and expected it to be but it was still fine overall.

They have a good streak going. I hope they can ditch the exclusivity at some point and get the games in as many hands as possible.

I think you are in the mindset a majority of people were. Yes, there was some online divisivness but generally in the mainstream people were speaking positive about it. Thats why it continued to sell millions years after release. That and it appealed to a very wide audience that hasn't been tapped into since.

I'm probably just jaded because I'm one of the suckers who bought 15 near launch and hated it. But 15 did release on multiple consoles at the height of their popularity, and later got a PC release. I also think FF7 still has a larger fanbase, which is what matters for sequel sales.

I wouldnt say year 2 is height of a consoles popularity. Especially PS4 that exploded in sales post XV's release.

As others pointed out, MMO expansions are a different beast. Far fewer people review them and it's usually folks who've played the previous ones, so they're already invested.

DT will probably score rather well, just like the previous FFXIV expansions.

I don't want to be dismissive of reviews for DLCs or expansions, but you are right that less reviews happen for expansions compared to initial releases, and that does skew the numbers a bit.
 

Toth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,135
Oh boy did my comment get taken a little too seriously: what I was trying to say is that FFXVI essentially is a B+ score on OC and FF Rebirth is an A. Both are pretty damn good scores. They received significant (90+) critical reception.

Though it does annoy me that 16 has 173 reviews while Rebirth has 142. Feel like they should have the same.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,632
Nobody did though until you brought it up :D

I legit did not expect that reaction. I didn't even suggest it was likely it would pass 92.
I know there's people that think those reviews don't, but they really rushed to prove my worries true at light speed.
I'm curious how Dawntrail will be received by players and critics as the game is getting long in the tooth and seems averse to making large changes this late in its life. The graphics update at least is a welcome change.

Yep, Dawntrail is set at a point where impressions will matter for the future, most are going to see for themselves how they feel, but I don't see a reason to completely discount the reviews.


Also, like, the while "MMO reviews don't count" thing always just feels disrespectful? The countless hours it takes to even be able to review an expansion, plus running through it and writing up their impressions. Imagine saying that effort doesn't matter towards a reviewer?

Sure, reviews don't cover post release stuff, but that's not really different from a lot of other games. Most fighting games end up very different from launch after a few years, and many players know if they're getting it or not, but I've never seen anyone say Street Fighter 6's reviews don't matter.
 
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