Daniel Ahmad (ZhugeEX): Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth is underperforming sales wise. Selling about half of what Remake sold in the same timeframe

[Firmus_Anguis]

erm, you mean the people who are saying the industry and it's consumers are at fault because their game is not selling well? i still can't believe that was actually said lmfao

everyone knows the reasons why the game is not selling, but there's a good amount of people who really don't think, or don't want to think, that Rebirth and/or SE have any,, or minimal, blame in it lol

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The game is excellent.

It being confined to one platform (with half the install base of Remake at that), you'd expect it to not sell as fast.

Given the quality though, one would hope it has long enough legs for the eventual PC release to give it a boost.

They must've accounted for this when they made it exclusive. Part 3 is no doubt already set in stone. Maybe that'll see a PC release, well see.

Winning GOTY might just boost it too.

 

[noinspiration]

For me, I'm also a huge FFVII fan but Remake just turned me off in way too many ways to consider an even longer sequel that still doesn't wrap things up.

Yeah I think we just need to accept the fact that FFVII is a nostalgic property and even if it's reviewing super well, it's a tough sell to people wanting something new, especially when it's exclusive and episodic. And technically, if you can't afford to jump gens yet, it's even more exclusive. Like cool, you played Remake, but you can't continue the story if you don't opt into the PS5. It's a very weird sell all around for people who bought Remake and had their game end in Midgar like "hey, come on, stay on the ride for Part 2 which also won't see the finish line". Like they want another $70 for more Final Fantasy VII when they just got a taste of it yesterday? And on a new console? AND YOU'RE STILL NOT DONE?

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I wonder how many people just got what they wanted with the first one. The part of the game I always heard people clamoring for more of was Midgar, and hey, here it is. In the first game of three.

 

[Rutger]

I wonder how many people just got what they wanted with the first one. The part of the game I always heard people clamoring for more of was Midgar, and hey, here it is. In the first game of three.

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Complete anecdotal and not nearly enough to say if it was a major thing, but I've definitely seen people say they had their fill with Remake, especially the overindulgent Sephiroth fight at the end.

 

[Saito Hikari]

Also, like, the while "MMO reviews don't count" thing always just feels disrespectful? The countless hours it takes to even be able to review an expansion, plus running through it and writing up their impressions. Imagine saying that effort doesn't matter towards a reviewer?

Sure, reviews don't cover post release stuff, but that's not really different from a lot of other games. Most fighting games end up very different from launch after a few years, and many players know if they're getting it or not, but I've never seen anyone say Street Fighter 6's reviews don't matter.

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The general gaming community has a massive blind spot in regards to understanding how the industry works outside of single player titles and games that were heavily promoted by publishers beforehand, especially this forum which is generally full of 30+ year old farts. You won't find any discussion here about MMOs or the mobile market that's actually genuine without some gatekeeping injected somewhere. Granted, it is a fact that MMO expansions get less reviews than other games, but fewer people review MMOs and even less for expansions. Anything else beyond that is semantics.

We legit had multiple people earlier in this thread blaming younger people going for multiplayer GAAS titles as a reason for Rebirth underperforming, when I'd argue that the 15-25 year old demographic that grew up playing games in the 2010-2020 period haven't been given any reason to care at all about the FF franchise, and that's ignoring all of the other single player/optional multiplayer properties from other companies hitting it big too.

Review scores for Rebirth being high doesn't mean shit in the practical reality of the idea that people aren't just going to buy a PS5 to play a sequel of a remake of a game created some 25 years ago at this point. Especially when it's heavily marketed towards people who grew up in the 'SE Golden Age', while failing to convince everyone else looking in that there's actually something compelling here compared to what everyone else is doing, and it's not just something fluffed up by a whole bunch of vocal old farts coming off as insane cultists that can't praise Rebirth without simultaneously shitting on the rest of the industry (and frequently other dev teams in the same company) in some way.

Even something as innocuous as Yoshi-P pointing out that most of the younger demographic grew up on other genres and even attempting to court that audience was treated as a crime in JRPG circles and twisted all the way into 'Yoshi-P hates turn based games and believes they won't sell!' for some fuck all reason.

 

[Hero]

I kind of worry about the discourse if Dawntrail scores above a 92.

Probably won't be easy given toping Endwalker's score which closed out a decade of stories means landing an extremely strong first impression.

But yeah, FF is doing so well critically and it's justly causing fights here...

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It's funny how quickly you're proving my point with the "it doesn't count" argument.

Critical acclaim is critical acclaim and FFXIV has used that to it's advantage to grow.

And either way, continued high scores for the series is a good thing that should be celebrated, rather than fodder for infighting.

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Saying this in a Rebirth thread where no one played it without playing Remake and already being invested is funny.

Damn, we're not even close to reviews for it and people want to argue about it...

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We had this same discussion the other day man and people other than me are giving you the same response I did, come on lol.

Nobody did though until you brought it up :D

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Wouldn't be a FF thread without someone bringing up the critically acclaimed MMORPG Final Fantasy XIV, with an expanded free trial which you can play through the entirety of A Realm Reborn and the award-winning Heavensward expansion up to level 60 for free with no restrictions on playtime.

I would say 5 points better is a lot. Especially if you are already on the higher end of the score. There are lots of 87 games, there aren't that many 92+ ones.

Rebirth score is also dragged down a bit further because of the rather controversial ending but that is part of the package

Edit: This is 5 year old data but illustrates the point: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/s/9CmML9R7V5

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Love how (the same) people are still saying "it's not that big of a difference" when yeah, it is that big of a difference, and they keep ignoring this data. 90+ MC scores are extremely hard to get and every point above 90 is even harder since you need more 10s than 9s to get above it.

 

[Vaenyr]

Saying this in a Rebirth thread where no one played it without playing Remake and already being invested is funny.

Damn, we're not even close to reviews for it and people want to argue about it...

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No one is arguing, it's a fact that MMO expansions have far fewer reviews. ShB had 45 reviews by critics across platforms. EW had 47.
Remake had 135 for the base version, exactly three times the amount of ShB. Rebirth had 148 and XVI had 149. (edit: metacritic numbers)

The reviews for MMO expansions aren't really relevant and the vast majority of people who really get invested in scores pretty much ignore those. I don't know why you're trying to create a preemptive controversy and why you're so dismissive about people explaining to you that DT's metacritic score very likely won't have any controversies associated with it.

Edit: also to clarify some more, I'm not saying that no one cares about MMO reviews or that they should be dismisses or anything like that. I'm simply saying that the people who get really invested in metacritic scores and like to argue and debate them for hours don't really do that for MMO expansions, and that's a good thing. As we've seen time and again review threads can turn into circuses.

Wouldn't be a FF thread without someone bringing up the critically acclaimed MMORPG Final Fantasy XIV, with an expanded free trial which you can play through the entirety of A Realm Reborn and the award-winning Heavensward expansion up to level 60 for free with no restrictions on playtime.

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Funnily enough it includes Stormblood now and goes up to level 70 :P

 

[Lobster Roll]

I wonder how many people just got what they wanted with the first one. The part of the game I always heard people clamoring for more of was Midgar, and hey, here it is. In the first game of three.

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I disagree STRONGLY when people say that Midgar is the best or most important part of the OG, but I have definitely seen it quite often enough over the years to see what you said making sense. Maybe a lot of people just don't care to see the rest of the game based on their past experience.

Complete anecdotal and not nearly enough to say if it was a major thing, but I've definitely seen people say they had their fill with Remake, especially the overindulgent Sephiroth fight at the end.

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That too. Go all out on Midgar and explore way more than the OG, get treated to kicking Sephiroth's ass, and then yeah. Stand up from the table and push your chair in.

 

[Toth]

We had this same discussion the other day man and people other than me are giving you the same response I did, come on lol.



Wouldn't be a FF thread without someone bringing up the critically acclaimed MMORPG Final Fantasy XIV, with an expanded free trial which you can play through the entirety of A Realm Reborn and the award-winning Heavensward expansion up to level 60 for free with no restrictions on playtime.



Love how (the same) people are still saying "it's not that big of a difference" when yeah, it is that big of a difference, and they keep ignoring this data. 90+ MC scores are extremely hard to get and every point above 90 is even harder since you need more 10s than 9s to get above it.

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It's really not in the grand scheme of things. The data suggests the median scores are between 72 and 80. It is harder to get 90+s yes but anything higher than even an 82 is in the upper limits of scores and are just as hard to get it seems. Plus not all scores are equal: a 90+ fighting game is quite different from a 90+ adventure game. People should be celebrating games higher than the norm, period.

Of course the big elephant in the room will always be the number of reviews. Even FFXVI has more almost 30 more reviews than TotK lol

 

[Vaenyr]

I disagree STRONGLY when people say that Midgar is the best or most important part of the OG, but I have definitely seen it quite often enough over the years to see what you said making sense. Maybe a lot of people just don't care to see the rest of the game based on their past experience.

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Well, everyone has different tastes. I loved Midgar in OG VII and the final third of the game. Rebirth actually covered all of my least favorite parts of the original. Never cared about Costa Del Sol and the whole Corel region. I've also had my share of Nibelheim with its appearances in like a million different spin offs that I really dislike having to revisit over and over again.

Part 3 is going to have some of the coolest parts of the original game though.

 

[Rutger]

We had this same discussion the other day man and people other than me are giving you the same response I did, come on lol.

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Yes, and I disagree with them dismissing it as well. I never expected you to be the only one to think that. But that's okay, it's a complicated situation imo because...

No one is arguing, it's a fact that MMO expansions have far fewer reviews. ShB had 45 reviews by critics across platforms. EW had 47.
Remake had 135 for the base version, exactly three times the amount of ShB. Rebirth had 148 and XVI had 149. (edit: metacritic numbers)

The reviews for MMO expansions aren't really relevant and the vast majority of people who really get invested in scores pretty much ignore those. I don't know why you're trying to create a preemptive controversy and why you're so dismissive about people explaining to you that DT's metacritic score very likely won't have any controversies associated with it.

Edit: also to clarify some more, I'm not saying that no one cares about MMO reviews or that they should be dismisses or anything like that. I'm simply saying that the people who get really invested in metacritic scores and like to argue and debate them for hours don't really do that for MMO expansions, and that's a good thing. As we've seen time and again review threads can turn into circuses.


Funnily enough it includes Stormblood now and goes up to level 70 :P

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Honestly we're a couple months away from an Elden Ring expansion that has a non-zero percent chance of being a GotY contender. Even if it doesn't enter the conversation at the end of the day, I think how people view and review updates/DLC/expansion will have to change at some point. These can be full games worth of content at times, only caring about the state of games at launch is a big blindspot in how we critically look at video games.

The general gaming community has a massive blind spot in regards to understanding how the industry works outside of single player titles and games that were heavily promoted by publishers beforehand, especially this forum which is generally full of 30+ year old farts. You won't find any discussion here about MMOs or the mobile market that's actually genuine without some gatekeeping injected somewhere. Granted, it is a fact that MMO expansions get less reviews than other games, but fewer people review MMOs and even less for expansions. Anything else beyond that is semantics.

We legit had multiple people earlier in this thread blaming younger people going for multiplayer GAAS titles as a reason for Rebirth underperforming, when I'd argue that the 15-25 year old demographic that grew up playing games in the 2010-2020 period haven't been given any reason to care at all about the FF franchise, and that's ignoring all of the other single player/optional multiplayer properties from other companies hitting it big too.

Review scores for Rebirth being high doesn't mean shit in the practical reality of the idea that people aren't just going to buy a PS5 to play a sequel of a remake of a game created some 25 years ago at this point. Especially when it's heavily marketed towards people who grew up in the 'SE Golden Age', while failing to convince everyone else looking in that there's actually something compelling here compared to what everyone else is doing, and it's not just something fluffed up by a whole bunch of vocal old farts coming off as insane cultists that can't praise Rebirth without simultaneously shitting on the rest of the industry (and frequently other dev teams in the same company) in some way.

Even something as innocuous as Yoshi-P pointing out that most of the younger demographic grew up on other genres and even attempting to court that audience was treated as a crime in JRPG circles and twisted all the way into 'Yoshi-P hates turn based games and believes they won't sell!' for some fuck all reason.

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Yeah, I agree with this.

 

[Kazhar]

Complete anecdotal and not nearly enough to say if it was a major thing, but I've definitely seen people say they had their fill with Remake, especially the overindulgent Sephiroth fight at the end.

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I wonder if it wouldn't have been a better long-term strategy to leave Sephiroth entirely out of part 1 (I know it was literally their first idea to have him as a final boss at the end of the expressway and I'm still rolling my eyes at their priorities). Have at least *something* iconic left for the other parts instead of just the Aerith moment, since they had so little restraint they used One-Winged Angel already and even the final fight choregraphy.
I have no idea why they thought Shinra alone wasn't enough to carry the first story arc, they're good villains.

 

[Rutger]

I wonder if it wouldn't have been a better long-term strategy to leave Sephiroth entirely out of part 1 (I know it was literally their first idea to have him as a final boss at the end of the expressway and I'm still rolling my eyes at their priorities). Have at least *something* iconic left for the other parts instead of just the Aerith moment, since they had so little restraint they used One-Winged Angel already and even the final fight choregraphy.
I have no idea why they thought Shinra alone wasn't enough to carry the first story arc, they're good villains.

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Yeah, I personally was hoping they expanded on President Shinra and the company as villain in part 1 since they fall to the side and mostly become jokes later.

 

[Vaenyr]

Honestly we're a couple months away from an Elden Ring expansion that has a non-zero percent chance of being a GotY contender. Even if it doesn't, I think how people view and review updates/DLC/expansion will have to change at some point. These can be full games worth of content at times, only caring about the state of games at launch is a big blindspot in how we critically look at video games.

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Did... you even read my comment? Or are you just arguing random things? Are you in favor of people fighting over MMO expansion review scores?

My entire point has been a) MMOs get far fewer reviews in general and b) the people who constantly fight about scores don't tend to fight about MMOs, which is a good thing imo. Let people who are interested read the reviews by critics and also the opinions of the player base. The scores themselves aren't really relevant to that.

 

[Hero]

Funnily enough it includes Stormblood now and goes up to level 70 :P

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You're right, I just had the old slogan ingrained in my brain because the XIV fanbase can't stop reminding people about it.

It's really not in the grand scheme of things. The data suggests the median scores are between 72 and 80. It is harder to get 90+s yes but anything higher than even an 82 is in the upper limits of scores and are just as hard to get it seems. Plus not all scores are equal: a 90+ fighting game is quite different from a 90+ adventure game. People should be celebrating games higher than the norm, period.

Of course the big elephant in the room will always be the number of reviews. Even FFXVI has more almost 30 more reviews than TotK lol

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An 87 is above average/median for sure but you are still downplaying how hard anything over 90 is. Last year 153 games scored an 80 or higher on MC. Only 13 managed 90 or above.

I don't know what this elephant in this room that you speak of considering this is an FF sales thread and you are trying to bring up TotK for some reason? TotK also has 7 more reviews than XVI on MC.

 

[Majunior]

I really do think it's the lack of moment from long gaps between release a drop in percieved quality more than exclusivity. If they can maintain critical acclaim of Rebirth, we'll see an increase in sales for the franchise.

 

[Clippy]

Same, being nostalgic about FFXV is weird lol

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It's the modern FF game most people would have played, and it has a high share of positive reviews in all platforms where it sold.

It would be weird if there weren't many people starting to get nostalgic for it right about now as it starts to become an older game.

 

[Rutger]

Did... you even read my comment? Or are you just arguing random things? Are you in favor of people fighting over MMO expansion review scores?

My entire point has been a) MMOs get far fewer reviews in general and b) the people who constantly fight about scores don't tend to fight about MMOs, which is a good thing imo. Let people who are interested read the reviews by critics and also the opinions of the player base. The scores themselves aren't really relevant to that.

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I don't think it's true that people don't argue over MMO scores, otherwise people wouldn't argue against including them in FF string of positively recieved games. The whole reason were on this discussion is because I made a joke and people rushed to tell me why Dawntrail's reviews won't count, haha.

I also don't think the number is that big of an issue, 50 reviews is a lot, that's the same range as Granblue Fantasy Versus Rising, and many more games. I don't think the value of reviews are lesser just because a game doesn't pull the numbers of a mainstream game.

 

[Vareon]

The distance between today to FFXV is the same between FFVII to Advent Children.

 

[Naiad]

All this talk about XV is making me want to play the Royal edition I have for free on the PS5 since the last time I played it was back on our slow PS4.

 

[Chumunga64]

okay, I liked rebirth but some people here are really being over the top with their reactions about this new. Talking about how this is proof that gamers don't want well crafted, ambitious, games anymore

this is a remake.

a 3 part remake of a PS1 game!

like, looking at it from a non fanboy view, asking people to pay 3 times for a remake of a game that released before most current gamers were born is crazy

I feel pretty aged as a gamer and I was barely a few weeks old when 7 released

 

[idiotmode]

I think this thread is getting off track a bit

 

[Vaenyr]

I don't think it's true that people don't argue over MMO scores, otherwise people wouldn't argue against including them in FF string of positively recieved games. The whole reason were on this discussion is because I made a joke and people rushed to tell me why Dawntrail's reviews won't count, haha.

I also don't think the number is that big of an issue, 50 reviews is a lot, that's the same range as Granblue Fantasy Versus Rising, and many more games. I don't think the value of reviews are lesser just because a game doesn't pull the numbers of a mainstream game.

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You seem to have severely misinterpreted the comments that responded to your joke then. No one is denying that the XIV expansions are well received and that they mostly deserve those scores (though EW didn't do it for me and is my least favorite for various reasons). Folks are just saying, and that's easily verifiable, that the metacritic scores for MMO expansions aren't even close to being as contentious as the score for single player games. They aren't dismissing the expansions from the well-received list of FF games; they're saying that there won't be threads with dozens of pages about DT's review scores.

I generally agree with you on many of your posts, but on this one it feels like you're shadowboxing with what you think people said instead of what they are actually saying.

 

[DesVoeux]

I think this thread is getting off track a bit

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I think it went off track 70-something pages ago.

 

[Makoto Yuki]

It's the modern FF game most people would have played, and it has a high share of positive reviews in all platforms where it sold.

It would be weird if there weren't many people starting to get nostalgic for it right about now as it starts to become an older game.

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Ehh, I guess. I mean it's almost a decade old. Personally a lot of my nostalgia for FFXV is still tied to Versus XIII. I remember watching the first trailer during E3 2006 and thinking it looked so badass.

At this point, I'm more nostalgic about the development hell from E3 2006, the re-reveal as FFXV at E3 2013, and the final release date of November 2016.

 

[Vareon]

I think this thread is getting off track a bit

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Would you say it needs black shadowy figures to keep it on track?

 

[TheMerv]

They uh...should really put a warning on new Final Fantasy games that you're entering an interfandom cold war by choosing to play these games.

Jesus Christ.

 

[Spehornoob]

They uh...should really put a warning on new Final Fantasy games that you're entering an interfandom cold war by choosing to play these games.

Jesus Christ.

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It's one of the more toxic fandoms out there, ayup.

 

[kurahador]

It's one of the more toxic fandoms out there, ayup.

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Kingdom Hearts fandom gonna be worse once they added Star Wars.

 

[Rutger]

You seem to have severely misinterpreted the comments that responded to your joke then. No one is denying that the XIV expansions are well received and that they mostly deserve those scores (though EW didn't do it for me and is my least favorite for various reasons). Folks are just saying, and that's easily verifiable, that the metacritic scores for MMO expansions aren't even close to being as contentious as the score for single player games. They aren't dismissing the expansions from the well-received list of FF games; they're saying that there won't be threads with dozens of pages about DT's review scores.

I generally agree with you on many of your posts, but on this one it feels like you're shadowboxing with what you think people said instead of what they are actually saying.

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I have no idea how to read

No one really gives a shit about review scores for MMO expansions

they are a joke

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As anything but dismissing the reception of those reviews.

I agree that there won't really be much arguing over the reviews in the eventual review thread for Dawntrail, that wasn't really a source of fighting in other FF review threads. It's when talking about FFXIV positively in relation to the rest of the series that it causes people to call you the worst type of fan on the planet like happened the other day, haha.

 

[TheCed]

The game is excellent.

It being confined to one platform (with half the install base of Remake at that), you'd expect it to not sell as fast.

Given the quality though, one would hope it has long enough legs for the eventual PC release to give it a boost.

They must've accounted for this when they made it exclusive. Part 3 is no doubt already set in stone. Maybe that'll see a PC release, well see.

Winning GOTY might just boost it too.

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If the exclusivity Deal was made prior to Covid... I'd say they might not have anticipated the state of everything these days.

 

[Rutger]

If the exclusivity Deal was made prior to Covid... I'd say they might not have anticipated the state of everything these days.

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Yeah, it's hard to predict these things. I don't really blame them that much, they got payed and they could significantly shorten the dev time by focusing on a single piece of hardware.

It was the wrong call at the end of the day, but taking that bet back then wasn't too crazy.

The Epic store exclusivity once they did get a PC port ready on the otherhand, that was an obvious mistake from the start.

 

[idiotmode]

Would you say it needs black shadowy figures to keep it on track?

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Perhaps so because I'm starting to think it's just talking about anything at this point. Honestly I'm more surprised it's lasted this long.

 

[Strings]

It's one of the more toxic fandoms out there, ayup.

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Kingdom Hearts fandom gonna be worse once they added Star Wars.

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The KH fandom seems pretty chill (though I don't interact with it much outside of some speedrunners and stuff). But the FF side loves to hate the KH one. Basically:


View: https://twitter.com/HLRandrew/status/1753995034393747699?t=9vn5-INKI9rKmSq2D_LyqA&s=19

 

[Vareon]

Yeah, it's hard to predict these things. I don't really blame them that much, they got payed and they could significantly shorten the dev time by focusing on a single piece of hardware.

It was the wrong call at the end of the day, but taking that bet back then wasn't too crazy.

The Epic store exclusivity once they did get a PC port ready on the otherhand, that was an obvious mistake from the start.

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After development troubles for 3 titles straight I reckon a developmental help from platform holder in exchange for timed exclusivity (which doesn't sound that bad to begin with) can be very enticing. Though within 7 years of development is a very long time, they must also second guessed their decision.

 

[Abrasion Test]

Yeah, it's hard to predict these things. I don't really blame them that much, they got payed and they could significantly shorten the dev time by focusing on a single piece of hardware.

It was the wrong call at the end of the day, but taking that bet back then wasn't too crazy.

The Epic store exclusivity once they did get a PC port ready on the otherhand, that was an obvious mistake from the start.

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Not having these PC ports ready to go the moment the deals lapsed too just shows Square does not prioritize PC as a platform and is content to get late digital sales. That 3 month period is going to come and go and I wouldn't be surprised to see a headline saying they haven't even begin port development yet.

 

[chocolate]

Not even the XV teams fault, I just can't get Versus XIII out of my mind.

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Me too. Even after all these years, I still think back to Versus XIII and think of what could have been...

If anyone is regretting Square Enix's exclusivity deal, it has to be Sony. Final Fantasy isn't selling consoles.

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It got me to bite the bullet and finally buy a PS5.

Prior to that, any PS5 game I wanted to play, I borrowed a friend's.

With that being said, I wonder if the number of people who bought a PS5 just to play Rebirth like me was worthwhile...

https://old.reddit.com/r/FinalFantasy/comments/1augse6/ff7_remake_who_is_sephiroth_and_why_are_we/

What a normal person thinks coming in new playing remake and how people dismiss it.

Gosh I wonder why it's not satisfying to hear that your answer on what this seemingly important dude was in your 40 hours playtime is gonna only be answered in the sequel.

My guys I like these games I platted both but I dunno how you can look at the story of both and be confused on why this isn't breaking into mainstream like monster hunter world/elden ring. Like the entire story structure at least to me feels very obviously not friendly to most newcomers.

Imagine watching Fellowship of the Ring and they never tell you who Sauron is and what he wants and why the ring needs to be destroyed.
Instead Frodo just gets hallucinatory episodes and the ring whispers to him no further context provided.

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I agree with this entire post.

I will forever shout it from the rooftops that Square are not the storyweaving geniuses they think they are with how they're going about it for this trilogy.

It screams hubris to me, especially since they're trying to make all this new story stuff more profound than it actually is.

I blame Nojima for this mostly, but the other guys too for not reigning him the fuck in and telling him to stop.

They overestimate how popular FF7 is in this day and age. They expect people to just know the lore, its characters, who is who, and for people to stick around for a decade to find out.

Well, the numbers sure are telling us something else entirely.

It was beyond stupid to finish the first game at the end of MIdgar, especially since the majority of the game dragged so much that there was literally no justifiable reason they could not have at least ended at Kalm and we get an understanding of who the heck Sephiroth is.

FFVII will always be my favourite Final Fantasy of all time. Nothing will top it. It's one of my favourite games of all time in general.

But it's also the reason why I have a love/hate relationship with these remakes. Just dumb as rocks story decisions that just pisses off some long time fans AND confused new people to the point where they nope the fuck out.

I will never get the defence for this new story direction, because it's not benefitting the game itself, or its sales.

Remake was a completely normal reinterpretation of VII, a game about fighters against a mega corporation that sucks the planet dry in the name of progress up until the very end. Then in the final battle, it was somehow about the whispers and the intersection of fate. I think it's quite likely that more than a few people are weirded out and got off the train.

In the spoiler thread and see how people are mostly trying to interpret the machinations of how the multiple worlds/Aerith/Zack stuff worked instead of the any environmental theme brought by its original story. If OG FFVII was a game about our relationship with our own planet, Remake/Rebirth is a game about our own relationship with OG FFVII.

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Love what you said in the second paragraph there, because it's spot on.

I want nothing to do with theories at this point in time. I don't go to that thread anymore because all the theories about multiple worlds, and how man Aerith's and Zack's there are, was annoying.

I love FF7 for its original themes, not for dumb theory crafting and multiverse Marvel nonsense.

Anecdotal, but I'm basically the only one in my friend group who is still aboard this train, and that's because I love FF7 more than they do.

They checked out after Remake. I'd wager that a lot of people who don't post online, or are more casual with gaming, are the same.

The developers have no one to blame but themselves.

I doubt they will ever entertain the idea that a portion of people did not come back and buy because the new story sucked. I think their hubris would not allow that.

 

[Chumunga64]

Mission Partially Accomplished?

Click to shrink...

Tensai

 

[Mephissto]

Me too. Even after all these years, I still think back to Versus XIII and think of what could have been...



It got me to bite the bullet and finally buy a PS5.

Prior to that, any PS5 game I wanted to play, I borrowed a friend's.

With that being said, I wonder if the number of people who bought a PS5 just to play Rebirth like me was worthwhile...



I agree with this entire post.

I will forever shout it from the rooftops that Square are not the storyweaving geniuses they think they are with how they're going about it for this trilogy.

It screams hubris to me, especially since they're trying to make all this new story stuff more profound than it actually is.

I blame Nojima for this mostly, but the other guys too for not reigning him the fuck in and telling him to stop.

They overestimate how popular FF7 is in this day and age. They expect people to just know the lore, its characters, who is who, and for people to stick around for a decade to find out.

Well, the numbers sure are telling us something else entirely.

It was beyond stupid to finish the first game at the end of MIdgar, especially since the majority of the game dragged so much that there was literally no justifiable reason they could not have at least ended at Kalm and we get an understanding of who the heck Sephiroth is.

FFVII will always be my favourite Final Fantasy of all time. Nothing will top it. It's one of my favourite games of all time in general.

But it's also the reason why I have a love/hate relationship with these remakes. Just dumb as rocks story decisions that just pisses off some long time fans AND confused new people to the point where they nope the fuck out.

I will never get the defence for this new story direction, because it's not benefitting the game itself, or its sales.



Love what you said in the second paragraph there, because it's spot on.

I want nothing to do with theories at this point in time. I don't go to that thread anymore because all the theories about multiple worlds, and how man Aerith's and Zack's there are, was annoying.

I love FF7 for its original themes, not for dumb theory crafting and multiverse Marvel nonsense.

Anecdotal, but I'm basically the only one in my friend group who is still aboard this train, and that's because I love FF7 more than they do.

They checked out after Remake. I'd wager that a lot of people who don't post online, or are more casual with gaming, are the same.

The developers have no one to blame but themselves.

I doubt they will ever entertain the idea that a portion of people did not come back and buy because the new story sucked. I think their hubris would not allow that.

Click to shrink...

I very much doubt Rebirth would have sold much better or even at all if the Remake simply ended with Motorball or at Kalm without the Zack stuff etc.


As for the Sephiroth stuff. I think it is fine to not understand the complete motivation of the villian in part 1. I actually think all the Sephiroth scenes they added were good for newcomers especially even if lot of OG Fans complain about them. I did watch a few Remake streamers new to FF7 recently to see the games through the eyes of a newcomer and the Sephiroth / memory stuff is usually what is most intriguing to them. I agree though that what exactly is happening at the end of Remake / the outcome should have beem explained better.

 

[watchyourbackmack]

I doubt they will ever entertain the idea that a portion of people did not come back and buy because the new story sucked. I think their hubris would not allow that.

Click to shrink...

Why would they? You've got most Final Fantasy 7 Remake stans that shout down anyone that even remotely suggestions that the terrible story direction may have had more than a tiny part to play in Rebirth's poor sales.

 

[chocolate]

I very much doubt Rebirth would have sold much better or even at all if the Remake simply ended with Motorball or at Kalm without the Zack stuff etc.


As for the Sephiroth stuff. I think it is fine to not understand the complete motivation of the villian in part 1. I actually think all the Sephiroth scenes they added were good for newcomers especially even if lot of OG Fans complain about them. I did watch a few Remake streamers new to FF7 recently to see the games through the eyes of a newcomer and the Sephiroth / memory stuff is usually what is most intriguing to them. I agree though that what exactly is happening at the end of Remake / the outcome should have beem explained better.

Click to shrink...

I watched streamers for Remake to gauge reactions when the game came out, and a lot of people were confused in general, and not in the good way. This is for both old fans, and new ones.

They might have enjoyed everything else, but that ending threw off more people than were on board from what I watched.

A part of me does think that interest for Rebirth would be a lot better if the ending for Remake didn't completely go off the rails and build up a reputation of being incoherent and not well received. Because when you bring that up during conversation, it's usually negative.

We also need to keep in mind that what followed was 4 years of online conversation where the reputation for Remake was "it's a sequel", "it's not a proper remake you need to play OG FF7" and "it's not the same story, so be careful you need to know this before going in. Play OG!"

That did not help.

So although Rebirth itself is a fantastic game, I attribute a portion of its lost sales to Remake just not impressing people enough for them to stay invested in the trilogy. That and the surrounding conversation about this project just scaring people away because of how needlessly complicated the barrier of entry is.

Why would they? You've got most Final Fantasy 7 Remake stans that shout down anyone that even remotely suggestions that the terrible story direction may have had more than a tiny part to play in Rebirth's poor sales.

Click to shrink...

If that's what they truly think, then they'd be wrong.

Because let's think about what outsiders looking in see when they try to research this remake series.

What they'll see is a dedicated fanbase fighting about what this remake truly is. Is it a sequel? Do you need to play OG? Is the story the same? Is it different? There's story changes? Are they good? Bad? Wait, then which game should I start with?

Like, imagine what that looks like to someone who has no idea about FF7. What are they going to think?

The story changes are a huge part in the surrounding conversation around this game whether we like it or not. It's one of the first things people researching into whether they should buy Remake or not, is going to see.

What they read online, especially all these conflicting opinions about the story, will definitely play a part in either enticing or throwing off casuals.

I think people are underestimating how much the reputation these remakes have built for themselves is affecting the overall sales, and overestimating console exclusivity, especially since Remake is also on the PS5. But that's just my take on it.

I say this because when the Rebirth demo dropped, I watched some streamers play it, and the ones who haven't played anything FF7 said "I heard the story is different, so I'm not sure whether to play Remake first or the original game" followed by chat having conflicting opinions to throw at the streamer.

That's the reputation this series now has.

 

[Rurunaki]

People still doomposting ff7?

 

[chocolate]

People still doomposting ff7?

Click to shrink...

Not sure if you're referring to me, but I'm just speculating on why I think the sales are not as strong as they could be.

Part 3 is still getting made, so there's nothing doom worthy about the project. It's still safe.

 

[Vaenyr]

The KH fandom seems pretty chill (though I don't interact with it much outside of some speedrunners and stuff). But the FF side loves to hate the KH one. Basically:


View: https://twitter.com/HLRandrew/status/1753995034393747699?t=9vn5-INKI9rKmSq2D_LyqA&s=19

Click to shrink...

What's particularly funny to me is that many folks like to call the multiverse/timelines stuff "Kingdom Hearts bullshit", when all these weird things have been a part of the FF franchise from day one. They are things that KH took as a FF spin off. The very first Final Fantasy includes time travel and time loops.

Also, on the topic of story telling in Final Fantasy I'll go with a seemingly more controversial take: Final Fantasy has never been a franchise with particularly good story telling. It's always been about spectacle and good individual character moments. People like to pretend than only the games from XII onwards suffer from this (or VIII which gets special attention), but the truth is most of them do. OG VII and IX for example devolve into borderline incoherent messes, with some incredibly confusing details. X has the rather straightforward pilgrimage, but everything surrounding Tidus, Zanarkand and the ending of the game caused discussions and confusion for literal years. Not because it's a movie like Memento or Inception, but because these games are trying to deliver stories and twists without actually understanding the intricacies required for such plots.

It's one of my favorite franchises and I love most games to bits, but it's funny how selective the criticisms often are when the same exact issues are present in multiple titles.

 

[Hero]

I watched streamers for Remake to gauge reactions when the game came out, and a lot of people were confused in general, and not in the good way. This is for both old fans, and new ones.

I say this because when the Rebirth demo dropped, I watched some streamers play it, and the ones who haven't played anything FF7 said "I heard the story is different, so I'm not sure whether to play Remake first or the original game" followed by chat having conflicting opinions to throw at the streamer.

That's the reputation this series now has.

Click to shrink...

No offense but watching even a handful of streamers play Remake would be anecdotal at best. While I'm sure there's a nonzero number of people that were confused by the story its still not cracking the top 3 reasons why Rebirth is down from Remake. And that's fine like you said. SE is milking the FF7 merch machine and got paid by Sony years ago to make a trilogy of games.

Just to contextualize it, SE is releasing a 'new' Cloud Play Arts Figure that is just the previous one with a new face part. Literally Simpsons Malibu Stacy now with hat meme.


View: https://x.com/SQEX_eSTORE/status/1785852413427253638

Also, on the topic of story telling in Final Fantasy I'll go with a seemingly more controversial take: Final Fantasy has never been a franchise with particularly good story telling. It's always been about spectacle and good individual character moments. People like to pretend than only the games from XII onwards suffer from this (or VIII which gets special attention), but the truth is most of them do. OG VII and IX for example devolve into borderline incoherent messes, with some incredibly confusing details. X has the rather straightforward pilgrimage, but everything surrounding Tidus, Zanarkand and the ending of the game caused discussions and confusion for literal years. Not because it's a movie like Memento or Inception, but because these games are trying to deliver stories and twists without actually understanding the intricacies required for such plots.

It's one of my favorite franchises and I love most games to bits, but it's funny how selective the criticisms often are when the same exact issues are present in multiple titles.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, as someone that grew up with the series from 4 (US 2) onwards, it was 'good' compared to most games at the time. Its entertaining and fun. It doesn't need to be deep. Someone tried to criticize Rebirth as Saturday morning cartoon crap and I'm like my dude it's always been this way. But I guess because Clive swears and kills people negates the fact that its still anime power of friendship at the end.

 

[chocolate]

No offense but watching even a handful of streamers play Remake would be anecdotal at best.

Click to shrink...

None taken, because you'd be entirely right.

Was just responding to an anecdote with another of mine, but I am aware that throwing anecdotes at one another doesn't really say anything at large.

While I'm sure there's a nonzero number of people that were confused by the story its still not cracking the top 3 reasons why Rebirth is down from Remake. And that's fine like you said. SE is milking the FF7 merch machine and got paid by Sony years ago to make a trilogy of games.

Just to contextualize it, SE is releasing a 'new' Cloud Play Arts Figure that is just the previous one with a new face part. Literally Simpsons Malibu Stacy now with hat meme.

Click to shrink...

Out of curiosity, what do you think the top 3 reasons are?

It being PS5 exclusive, a sequel, and a muddled reputation are mine. I just think about the kind of rep this trilogy has, and it's anything but inviting for new people in my eyes.

FF7 merch still sells well thankfully, so they got that at least. I buy FF7 merch myself so I'm helping in some way lol.

I know some hate the PS exclusivity, but I do think that's part of the reason why Square were able to go all out with Rebirth, and hopefully with the last game too.

 

[Mephissto]

I watched streamers for Remake to gauge reactions when the game came out, and a lot of people were confused in general, and not in the good way. This is for both old fans, and new ones.

They might have enjoyed everything else, but that ending threw off more people than were on board from what I watched.

A part of me does think that interest for Rebirth would be a lot better if the ending for Remake didn't completely go off the rails and build up a reputation of being incoherent and not well received. Because when you bring that up during conversation, it's usually negative.

We also need to keep in mind that what followed was 4 years of online conversation where the reputation for Remake was "it's a sequel", "it's not a proper remake you need to play OG FF7" and "it's not the same story, so be careful you need to know this before going in. Play OG!"

That did not help.

So although Rebirth itself is a fantastic game, I attribute a portion of its lost sales to Remake just not impressing people enough for them to stay invested in the trilogy. That and the surrounding conversation about this project just scaring people away because of how needlessly complicated the barrier of entry is.



If that's what they truly think, then they'd be wrong.

Because let's think about what outsiders looking in see when they try to research this remake series.

What they'll see is a dedicated fanbase fighting about what this remake truly is. Is it a sequel? Do you need to play OG? Is the story the same? Is it different? There's story changes? Are they good? Bad? Wait, then which game should I start with?

Like, imagine what that looks like to someone who has no idea about FF7. What are they going to think?

The story changes are a huge part in the surrounding conversation around this game whether we like it or not. It's one of the first things people researching into whether they should buy Remake or not, is going to see.

What they read online, especially all these conflicting opinions about the story, will definitely play a part in either enticing or throwing off casuals.

I think people are underestimating how much the reputation these remakes have built for themselves is affecting the overall sales, and overestimating console exclusivity, especially since Remake is also on the PS5. But that's just my take on it.

I say this because when the Rebirth demo dropped, I watched some streamers play it, and the ones who haven't played anything FF7 said "I heard the story is different, so I'm not sure whether to play Remake first or the original game" followed by chat having conflicting opinions to throw at the streamer.

That's the reputation this series now has.

Click to shrink...

I agree with you that Remake probably wasn't impressive enough to hold most non FF fans over for 4 years even though I really loved the game. And yes, the whole discussiong of it being a sequel or not or whether you should play the OG beforehand or not also isn't helping for sure.

I am just not sure if they kept everything faithful and they ended Remake after Motorball or at Kalm if it would have sold better. Despite the ending being controversial it helped keeping the conversation about the game going which I think it would not have otherwise.
But if you are right I am not sure if it would have resulted in Rebirth selling gangbusters.

I think there are multiple factors which hampered Rebirth which we have been over and over at this point.

-Availability:
Remake was exclusive to PS4 (double install base), then released and upgraded PS5 version with DLC exclusive to PS5, already cutting of lots of Remake fans from additional and relevant story content. Then forever exclusive on Epic where the game withered. While what SE should have been doingis to get the game in as many hands as possible. When it finally released on Steam it was 80 dollars... Squandering that launch as well. Sure the game was on PS+ but people on the playstation who were interested in the game likely already got it at this point.

-Nature of being a FF sequel.
Remake is a story focused game that you need to play before going into Rebirth. So the people who finished Remake are kinda your sales ceiling except if you somehow manage to capture godly amounts of hype and mindshare whichbis unlikely for a JRPG sequel.
Of course not everyone who finished Remake 4 years ago is in a position now to play Rebirth. Be it because they have no PS5 or simply because they have less time than 4 years ago etc.

-Somewhat squandered marketing
I generally feel like the marketing for Rebirth wasn't very good. Little focus on the open world nature of the game. The Performance at the game awards was beautiful and well done but I doubt that kind of stuff moves many copies. They had all eyes on them and could have done better to promote the game there

-Demo a bit undercooked
We saw from XVI that a great demo can have a big impact on pre-orders.
Rebirth chapter 1 demo is fine but plaguedby weird design decisions and pacing issues.
The clunky mako vacuum part was unneccessary. To many slow walkikg sections back to back. The crawl while Sephiroth kills everyone is cool but ends in that weird standoff where everyone just stands there with guns out and it kinda kills the moment. Performance mode also not not polished etc.

-Close proximity to previous installment.
A small point but I also don't think it is a good strategy to release 2 mainline titles too close to each other. While I am glad we get lots of FF nowadays again I think the games could have been spaced out better.

So I agree with your points to a degree but if it had a sales impact I think it pales in comparison to the other stuff.


Edit: Just to add to the discussion above. I agree about FF stories in general. The franchise always required a certain amount of suspension of disbelief. I can't think of many installments where the story is super coherent without plotholes. Many of these games are still some of my all time favorites. Sephiroth at the end of remake is confusing? In IX Necron literally shows up out of nowhere as the final boss in the game with like 2 sentences of explaination.

 

[Hero]

Out of curiosity, what do you think the top 3 reasons are?

It being PS5 exclusive, a sequel, and a muddled reputation are mine. I just think about the kind of rep this trilogy has, and it's anything but inviting for new people in my eyes.

FF7 merch still sells well thankfully, so they got that at least. I buy FF7 merch myself so I'm helping in some way lol.

I know some hate the PS exclusivity, but I do think that's part of the reason why Square were able to go all out with Rebirth, and hopefully with the last game too.

Click to shrink...

1. PS5 Exclusive
2. A sequel
3. Middle story syndrome

Reputation for oldies or boomers is definitely up there, as is the Final Fantasy brand's mismanagement over the past decade.

If SE made out like a bandit for the exclusivity making Remake a three part series over a decade more power to them but between XVI and this, its hard to see them justifying XVII being Playstation exclusive.

 

[Mephissto]

1. PS5 Exclusive
2. A sequel
3. Middle story syndrome

Reputation for oldies or boomers is definitely up there, as is the Final Fantasy brand's mismanagement over the past decade.

If SE made out like a bandit for the exclusivity making Remake a three part series over a decade more power to them but between XVI and this, its hard to see them justifying XVII being Playstation exclusive.

Click to shrink...

To what I said above I agree with those points as well. SE can still turn it around eventually (they likely wont) by working on a PC Port and release it SOON, hopefully a Nintendo Switch 2 Version, getting the game in as many hands as possible. Then release a triple pack for a good price a year or so before part 3 comes out so people have time to play the prequels beforehand. Also discounts to Remake and Rebirth during the marketing months etc. etc.

 

[Vareon]

What's particularly funny to me is that many folks like to call the multiverse/timelines stuff "Kingdom Hearts bullshit", when all these weird things have been a part of the FF franchise from day one. They are things that KH took as a FF spin off. The very first Final Fantasy includes time travel and time loops.

Also, on the topic of story telling in Final Fantasy I'll go with a seemingly more controversial take: Final Fantasy has never been a franchise with particularly good story telling. It's always been about spectacle and good individual character moments. People like to pretend than only the games from XII onwards suffer from this (or VIII which gets special attention), but the truth is most of them do. OG VII and IX for example devolve into borderline incoherent messes, with some incredibly confusing details. X has the rather straightforward pilgrimage, but everything surrounding Tidus, Zanarkand and the ending of the game caused discussions and confusion for literal years. Not because it's a movie like Memento or Inception, but because these games are trying to deliver stories and twists without actually understanding the intricacies required for such plots.

It's one of my favorite franchises and I love most games to bits, but it's funny how selective the criticisms often are when the same exact issues are present in multiple titles.

Click to shrink...

I get what you're saying, but calling Final Fantasy never have good storytelling is reductive .

If the characters and stories of a game released decades ago still resonated in people's hearts, then they did a correct thing. Just because we're older now and able to see more of its flaws, that doesn't mean they are retroactively bad. This happened to games, books, movies, and anything you liked in the past. If you ever sit down and reflect on the art that shaped you now, you will find most of them have major flaws that you and a whole generation of people somehow overlooked. A trap I've seen a lot of people fall into is believing that the media they liked in the past has to be objectively better than stuff of today, or the opposite: they feel fooled because the media they loved in the past is not as good as they remembered. That is not the case. If it works, you have to admit it works.

By the end of the day, storytelling's purpose is to impart a value or purpose to the audience. It's not about telling an "objectively good" story or world building, nor is it about "objectively good" way of telling it. If the details of the world are a mess, but spectacle and good individual character rmoments are good enough to a point where people still love them 20-30 years after the story has been told, it is good storytelling.

 

[Vaenyr]

I get what you're saying, but calling Final Fantasy never have good storytelling is reductive .

If the characters and stories of a game released decades ago still resonated in people's hearts, then they did a correct thing. Just because we're older now and able to see more of its flaws, that doesn't mean they are retroactively bad. This happened to games, books, movies, and anything you liked in the past. If you ever sit down and reflect on the art that shaped you now, you will find most of them have major flaws that you and a whole generation of people somehow overlooked. A trap I've seen a lot of people fall into is believing that the media they liked in the past has to be objectively better than stuff of today, or the opposite: they feel fooled because the media they loved in the past is not as good as they remembered. That is not the case. If it works, you have to admit it works.

By the end of the day, storytelling's purpose is to impart a value or purpose to the audience. It's not about telling an "objectively good" story or world building, nor is it about "objectively good" way of telling it. If the details of the world are a mess, but spectacle and good individual character rmoments are good enough to a point where people still love them 20-30 years after the story has been told, it is good storytelling.

Click to shrink...

I think it comes down to how you define storytelling. People care about and love the characters from various FF games precisely because the characters are great. Storytelling for me is much more about the actual story and plot beats though. You can have great characters but a weak story. I don't think that's reductive, even if my wording in the previous post might've been a bit provocative.

I wasn't even talking about "objectively good" stories or claiming that stories need to be perfect or something like that. Every story to ever exist has issues to some degree, that's obvious. But for a specific example, IX starts out with a captivating story, but towards the end unravels entirely and becomes incoherent including a last second final boss. That goes beyond "flawed story" and to me is an example of failed storytelling. They had great individual pieces but couldn't make the whole work. The fact that Vivi is a great character or that Zidane and Garnet go through character arcs doesn't really affect my opinion on the storytelling, because for me those things are separate.

Overall my comment was supposed to highlight that some games like VIII get a ton of criticism when very similar issues exist in many of the fan favorites as well. Nostalgia changes how we individually feel about games (or art in general for that matter) and shapes our enjoyment, but something like storytelling is a bit more objective and precise and can be discussed regardless of nostalgia. For example, it doesn't matter how one feels about LOTR when discussing Boromir's death, or about VII when talking about Aerith's death and how these affected the respective parties. One might have nostalgia for the properties and feel something particular about the scenes themselves, but in the context of the story those events can be discussed divorced from the nostalgia.

TL;DR: It's about analysis of the overall story, not subjective feelings on individual characters.