Daniel Ahmad (ZhugeEX): Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth is underperforming sales wise. Selling about half of what Remake sold in the same timeframe

chocolate · Apr 18, 2024

Multiplatform and marketing would be very helpful.

Multiplatform is self explanatory.

As for marketing, they definitely did not pull out all the stops for Rebirth. I did not see a lot of ads for it online, nor where there Square Enix dedicated streams for it, events, and the like.

When FFXVI was launching, they pulled out all the stops. I saw the game being advertised as banner ads, and even video ones, on relevant websites I visited, and the devs spoke about the game often too. Billboards, streams, they did it.

They did not such thing with Rebirth. Kept quiet and under lock and key.

I'm just wondering if they allocated some of the marketing budget towards developments costs based on just how little I saw of Rebirth leading up the game's release.

It's either that or they thought being mysterious was a good thing... which, well, of course not.

werezompire · Apr 18, 2024

Looking at Zelda vs FF, Zelda was always consistently one of the best-selling series on every Nintendo console before becoming insanely popular with BotW on the Switch. Final Fantasy was a juggernaut with 7, 8, 10, and then later 15 (which benefited from a wider release), but has been less consistent overall.

mclem said:
One mild thought on the turn based vs real time discussion : I've not played the Remake family, so I don't know how much it hinges on action skills, but, well, I'm in my forties now, and the reactions very much aren't what they used to be - and that's as a dedicated gamer, a more casual one may well have a more significant decline. It does make me wonder if real time goes some way to alienate the original audience, but less out of an unwillingness to learn and more out of a difficulty in keeping up?

(But it's quite possible it's a very gentle, not terribly twitchy real-time experience, so ignore all that if so!)

It's a hybrid between real-time and turn-based. Basically, you use regular attacks to fill up your ATB and then you press a button to slow-down time and pick your special moves and spend ATB (and sometimes MP) to use them. Periodically you also get super special moves like Limit Breaks, Summons, And Combo Abilities (Rebirth-only) that you go into a menu and select once available. There's also a roll button and a defend button (which if you time it just right is more effective, but you can also just hold it). And you press up and down to swap between characters.

You can make it more real-time (using button shortcuts to skip menus) or more turn-based (turn on auto-attack on) and there's enough depth for people who want to really dig into it and play on Hard mode. In any case, Normal mode is a lot easier than something like Elden Ring, and there's an Easy mode as well if you want it. I don't think high difficulty is scaring people off these games.

mclem · Apr 18, 2024

werezompire said:
It's a hybrid between real-time and turn-based. Basically, you use regular attacks to fill up your ATB and then you press a button to slow-down time and pick your special moves and spend ATB (and sometimes MP) to use them. There's also a roll button and a defend button (which if you time it just right is more effective, but you can also just hold it). And you press up and down to swap between characters.

You can make it more real-time (using button shortcuts to skip menus) or more turn-based (turn on auto-attack on) and there's enough depth for people who want to really dig into it and play on Hard mode. In any case, Normal mode is a lot easier than something like Elden Ring, and there's an Easy mode as well if you want it. I don't think high difficulty is scaring people off these games.

Fair enough! I don't really have a frame of reference, I guess the best comparison I'd have would have been Kingdom Hearts, maybe, but I've not played one of those recently either.

Korigama · Apr 18, 2024

hydrophilic attack said:
i wonder what the physical/digital split is for top games in japan. in the uk, we know it's around 40/60. with some extrapolations from information shared by mat, i have extrapolated it's about 20/80 in america. i wonder if 50/50 is about accurate for japan, or if they're still more heavily shifted towards physical versions.

Heavily leans physical, which is usually mentioned (and pretty much always ignored even after that) in every topic concerning Japanese software sales.

madbuk · Apr 18, 2024

mclem said:
One mild thought on the turn based vs real time discussion : I've not played the Remake family, so I don't know how much it hinges on action skills, but, well, I'm in my forties now, and the reactions very much aren't what they used to be - and that's as a dedicated gamer, a more casual one may well have a more significant decline. It does make me wonder if real time goes some way to alienate the original audience, but less out of an unwillingness to learn and more out of a difficulty in keeping up?

(But it's quite possible it's a very gentle, not terribly twitchy real-time experience, so ignore all that if so!)

Remake/Rebirth are basically turn based games, they're not twitchy at all. Think of it like XIII, except swapping between party members instead of paradigms, and having free movement to maybe dodge some attacks. But, speaking as someone who has the platinum in both, taking damage isn't the end of the world even in hard mode, just like how in a turn based game you take forced damage. Everything about the combat revolves around your ATB guages, like the original FF7, your basic melees do barely any damage and just exist to refill the bar instead of simply standing still like you do in OG7

Deluxera · Apr 18, 2024

sfortunato said:
Final Fantasy could achieve 10m+ sales (now it's pretty far behind even 8m) because it's a big budget game developed by one of the most important companies in the market and with a huge legacy.

People expecting a JRPG to sell 10+ million in this day and age are not in check with reality. When you look at franchises comparable to FF in terms of demographics, like Tales or Xenoblade, 3-4 million seems to be the ceiling. Persona 5 and Nier Automata managed to clear the 5 million mark and it was considered the biggest breakout for Japanese franchises of their generation.

It's not a matter of budget. If anything it shows that mainline Final Fantasy is vastly overproduced relatively to the audience it has nowadays.

plow · Apr 18, 2024

GhostTrick said:
The problem isn't that FF isn't growing. The problem is that it's shrinking.
If FFVII Remake could get as high as 7 million units despite all the shortcomings attached to these exclusivity deals + handling of Intermission, should we really believe there was no way these 7 millions could've been 10 millions, if not more, if handled properly ?

People are taking exemple of other series because it's evidence that there is growth OUTSIDE of a single platform.
Unless we're supposed to believe that FF sold as much as it could and that no sales exists outside of PlayStation.

(And btw, Nier Automata is the evidence that yes, there is growth for JRPG outside of PlayStation. So is Persona and Yakuza.)

I'm not saying that there is no growth on other platforms. FF Remake and Rebirth would definitely do a lot better if they would have been multiplatform. I'm questioning the issue being on "gameplay" side and that the series would do much better if it would have been turn based.

Hero said:
Persona and LAD's budgets are no where near what it costs to develop a numbered mainline FF title. Their success is measured differently, but declining sales of mainline FF titles is not a good look when budgets are going up. XVI and Rebirth won't hit even 8 million units without ports beyond PC and steep discounts.

I never talked about budget or FF being more successfull?

sfortunato said:
Persona and Like A Dragon weren't used to say that Final Fantasy should grow, rather to demonstrate that being a classical turn-based jRPG doesn't alienate consumers, rather it might even increase popularity of franchises.

Do you have any tangible proof, that Final Fantasy would grow outside the 8-10 million if it would be turn based instead? You picked two game series that grew, because they are releasing on every single platform on the planet instead of being on just one. Both LAD and Persona would have grown shit if they remained Playstation exclusive.

Final Fantasy issue with growth is not it's "gameplay". It's the fact that the series is gated behind a singular platform that while incredibly strong in many parts of the world, is crashing down in Japan, Final Fantasies strongest market.

BaasRed · Apr 18, 2024

Has there been a remake of a single game that turned to 3 separate games before FF7? Might be as simple as the game being difficult to market for being a part 2 of a remake. Maybe to the layman it will seem like the game got a rerelease.

Deluxera · Apr 18, 2024

plow said:
Do you have any tangible proof, that Final Fantasy would grow outside the 8-10 million if it would be turn based instead? You picked two game series that grew, because they are releasing on every single platform on the planet instead of being on just one. Both LAD and Persona would have grown shit if they remained Playstation exclusive.

Final Fantasy issue with growth is not it's "gameplay". It's the fact that the series is gated behind a singular platform that while incredibly strong in many parts of the world, is crashing down in Japan, Final Fantasies strongest market.

Persona and Yakuza had their breakout hit (P5 and Y0 respectively) before these series went multiplatform.

The exclusive argument can only go so far when we have countless examples of household franchises which saw a substantial, revolutionary growth on a single platform ; Zelda and God of War being the most obvious examples. In the case of Final Fantasy and JRPG however, I would concede that these sort of games can not afford to skip Steam at the very least if they want numbers.

"Gameplay" is very much an important point. I would argue that the traditional Final Fantasy model of high production values, lots of cutscenes and very simplistic gameplay has run its course. Look at what games are popular nowadays in the RPG space. Baldur's Gate 3, Elden Ring, Honkai Star Rail, these games have deep gameplay and allow a lot of freedom to the player. It's not about turn-based or action, but whether you sell a videogame or an interactive CG movie.

Rickyrozay2o9 · Apr 18, 2024

BaasRed said:
Has there been a remake of a single game that turned to 3 separate games before FF7? Might be as simple as the game being difficult to market for being a part 2 of a remake. Maybe to the layman it will seem like the game got a rerelease.

I'm pretty sure this is the first and last game to ever do it.

plow · Apr 18, 2024

Deluxera said:
The exclusive argument can only go so far when we have countless examples of household franchises which saw a substantial, revolutionary growth on a single platform ; Zelda and God of War being the most obvious examples. In the case of Final Fantasy and JRPG however, I would concede that these sort of games can not afford to skip Steam at the very least if they want numbers.

I don't think picking GOW or Zelda is fair. Those games where generation defining games. Bit easy to say "Do it like SSM or Nintendo did with God of War and Zelda, create literal GOAT candidates".

FF Rebirth is the best reviewing Final Fantasy game since Final Fantasy 9. They did everything they could with the game to make it an amazing experience.

hydrophilic attack · Apr 18, 2024

Korigama said:
Heavily leans physical,

can you link me to a source that supports this statement?

HolyJonte · Apr 18, 2024

BaasRed said:
Has there been a remake of a single game that turned to 3 separate games before FF7? Might be as simple as the game being difficult to market for being a part 2 of a remake. Maybe to the layman it will seem like the game got a rerelease.

Yeah one big problem is that for people from the outside it just seems like there is sooo many FF7 things and no one knows what anything means. The naming should have been Rebrith = Part 2.

shadowman16 · Apr 18, 2024

Deluxera said:
Persona and Yakuza had their breakout hit (P5 and Y0 respectively) before these series went multiplatform.

What does breakout hit mean in terms of 0? Because that game didnt exactly set the charts on fire for quite a while, RGGS themselves suggest that with overseas sales it seemed to claw its way to 1mil sales, but that's with Japan/China already, so... probably more around 500K (again, going by what little RGGS say about series sales).
It got more attention for sure, people (on enthusiast forums and social media) were more aware of it, but it was still pretty small. Which is why the PC (and Gamepass) releases helped so much. More people tried it on GP because it was "free", and it just seemed to find a loyal fanbase on the PC. That was when it REALLY started to break out, and then more so when it started getting multi platform day 1 releases, then worldwide day 1 releases. It was a gradual increase, 0 lit the fuse, but just being on the PS4 didnt magically make the games start succeeding the way they do now.

Linus815 · Apr 18, 2024

Yakuza's true breakout is not something you can exactly pinpoint because it includes all the remasters, gamepass deal, ports as well, not just a linear sequence of 0 to 6 to 7 to 8. 0 may have been more popular in the west even compared to prior entries even before it hit PC, but it certainly wasn't anywhere near as big as it was once it did hit PC and all the rest of the series started releasing there, driving up engagement for all the older titles as well.

It's also worth noting that at some point even RGGS will stop supporting the PS4, which will be a major blow to japanese retail sales. Without expanding to other platforms they could've ended in a similiar spot to FF with the sales stagnating, as even still, japanese sales still make a decent chunk of their sales and PS4 is still around 40% of that.

shadowman16 · Apr 18, 2024

Linus815 said:
Yakuza's true breakout is not something you can exactly pinpoint because it includes all the remasters, gamepass deal, ports as well, not just a linear sequence of 0 to 6 to 7 to 8. 0 may have been more popular in the west even compared to prior entries even before it hit PC, but it certainly wasn't anywhere near as big as it was once it did hit PC and all the rest of the series started releasing there, driving up engagement for all the older titles as well.

It's also worth noting that at some point even RGGS will stop supporting the PS4, which will be a major blow to japanese retail sales. Without expanding to other platforms they could've ended in a similiar spot to FF with the sales stagnating, as even still, japanese sales still make a decent chunk of their sales and PS4 is still around 40% of that.

Yup. And Im curious when they'll stop supporting the PS4, as Gaiden and 8 actually did better in Japan than previous titles per RGGS comments... I dont really mind, since the DE seems fine enough for the series now, but I am curious when they'll pull that plug. Thankfully, as mentioned they have a wider fanbase now that it wont doom the series like it would have had it not picked up steam outside of Japan... of course we also dont know how much PS4 sales contribute to the series overseas...

fiendcode · Apr 18, 2024

If 0 was the breakout point for RGG, that would've been precisely when it went multi (PC) and that version shot to a couple million. As a PS exclusive the series was in a slow decline or stagnant as Asian sales progressively declined and western sales modestly rose.

People forget but Yakuza was doing almost a million in Japan alone back on PS2 and even the pre-PS4 entries on PS3 were clearing 500k there.

PC opened doors for the series in a major way.

mclem · Apr 18, 2024

BaasRed said:
Has there been a remake of a single game that turned to 3 separate games before FF7? Might be as simple as the game being difficult to market for being a part 2 of a remake. Maybe to the layman it will seem like the game got a rerelease.

Zork, but that was a whole other era. The original Fortran game was split into three smaller games when the developers founded Infocom and were aiming for larger-scale commercial release.

Zork - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

GhostTrick · Apr 18, 2024

fiendcode said:
If 0 was the breakout point for RGG, that would've been precisely when it went multi (PC) and that version shot to a couple million. As a PS exclusive the series was in a slow decline or stagnant as Asian sales progressively declined and western sales modestly rose.

People forget but Yakuza was doing almost a million in Japan alone back on PS2 and even the pre-PS4 entries on PS3 were clearing 500k there.

PC opened doors for the series in a major way.

I would argue something similar when it comes to Persona 5.
Yes, it sold better than previous entries despite being PS only.
Yet the re-release in October 2022 brought nearly 1.7 more million sales, as of April 2023.

Out of 4 million sales for Royale, which was 3 years old by the time we had these numbers, 45% of these sales happened 2 years and a half later, with the release on additional platforms. In less than 6 months.

Had it happened before, it would've been way higher today.

There's a reason why Atlus/Sega totally shifted their strategy. Because even for a game like Persona 5, there were lost sales because of untapped markets.

Multiplat won't automatically makes your title a success.

But your successful title would've been a lot more successful had it been on more platforms.

And your less successful game could've been successful, if it was multiplatform.

duckroll · Apr 18, 2024

Deluxera said:
People expecting a JRPG to sell 10+ million in this day and age are not in check with reality. When you look at franchises comparable to FF in terms of demographics, like Tales or Xenoblade, 3-4 million seems to be the ceiling. Persona 5 and Nier Automata managed to clear the 5 million mark and it was considered the biggest breakout for Japanese franchises of their generation.

It's not a matter of budget. If anything it shows that mainline Final Fantasy is vastly overproduced relatively to the audience it has nowadays.

FF15 sold 5 million on launch day, 6 million in a month, and 10 million eventually after 5 years.

It's doable!

HK-47 · Apr 18, 2024

oty said:
the highest selling Zelda of all time before BotW and TotK was TP with like 8m units. yes, it was never a mainstream hit

8 million has always been a mainstream hit. Very few games reach more than that. It just became more popular with BotW. If Zelda started selling 50 million a game, would BotW suddenly not be mainstream either?

Shopolic · Apr 18, 2024

BaasRed said:
Has there been a remake of a single game that turned to 3 separate games before FF7? Might be as simple as the game being difficult to market for being a part 2 of a remake. Maybe to the layman it will seem like the game got a rerelease.

A few days ago, someone here said that he/she thought Rebirth is a remaster of Remake and just found out it's a new game because of this thread!

Nostradamus · Apr 18, 2024

We really don't know the sales expectations of the game and the developer team has proved already that they can deliver a very high quality title in a truly minimal amount of time for today's standards which definitely saves costs. The fact that they insist on focusing on one platform, in combination with whatever deal they have with Sony, means it is working for them.

I guess going multiplatform for the start isn't always ideal, especially if your team isn't structured to support it. Also, SE might have realised that, at least for their old big IPs, platforms outside of Playstation don't generate enough sales to justify the additional resources and time required for a Multiplatform release.

Hogendaz85 · Apr 18, 2024

Rahkeesh said:
This is a strange idea but, I wonder if for FF7 remake, they had targeted something closer to the PS1 pre-rendered backgrounds and FMV graphics as just the realtime graphics. A level of fidelity that would be more reasonable to produce the entire world of FF7 in one modern game, a look that was more nostalgic while being a step up from the lego people and low-res battle textures, and something that could even run on the Switch, a far more relevant JRPG platform, especially in Japan.

Alas Advent Children alone probably ruined this idea, which the current remake project aspires to outdo.

Would have preferred this

DidactBRHU3 · Apr 18, 2024

Shopolic said:
A few days ago, someone here said that he/she thought Rebirth is a remaster of Remake and just found out it's a new game because of this thread!

There is just a lot of FF7 games around, that definitely does not help.

snausages · Apr 18, 2024

I get why people ask for a more 1:1 remake approach, but I just don't love that idea cause it feels so redundant. It's a different looking version of what we already have

I think VII OG remains an interesting game cause of the technology used to build it but also cause it's extremely different to these new ones. Even if, Jenova forbid, they ditched the third game or whatever I'd still consider it a much more interesting project than a more safe 1:1 approach.

Someone mentioned SMRPG, I feel similarly with that. I just prefer how the SNES version looks. It looks old, but that's also what makes it cool imo. FFVII Remake and Rebirth are nothing like the original, but that's what makes them cool imo

Mephissto · Apr 18, 2024

snausages said:
I get why people ask for a more 1:1 remake approach, but I just don't love that idea cause it feels so redundant. It's a different looking version of what we already have

I think VII OG remains an interesting game cause of the technology used to build it but also cause it's extremely different to these new ones. Even if, Jenova forbid, they ditched the third game or whatever I'd still consider it a much more interesting project than a more safe 1:1 approach.

Someone mentioned SMRPG, I feel similarly with that. I just prefer how the SNES version looks. It looks old, but that's also what makes it cool imo. FFVII Remake and Rebirth are nothing like the original, but that's what makes them cool imo

Agreed. Don't like 1 to 1 remakes for thr most part. Usually I prefer to play the OG anyways since usually the remaster/remakes often come with slight but unneccessary changes.

If you remake a game then throw in new stuff, I love that. If you just have slightly altered graphics then rather give me the og. Like Links Awakening, Advance Wars etc. not a fan of these graphics. Even the FF PS1 remasters all have worse backgrounds and in the case of VIII also models that look weird.

Vareon · Apr 18, 2024

snausages said:
I get why people ask for a more 1:1 remake approach, but I just don't love that idea cause it feels so redundant. It's a different looking version of what we already have

I think VII OG remains an interesting game cause of the technology used to build it but also cause it's extremely different to these new ones. Even if, Jenova forbid, they ditched the third game or whatever I'd still consider it a much more interesting project than a more safe 1:1 approach.

Someone mentioned SMRPG, I feel similarly with that. I just prefer how the SNES version looks. It looks old, but that's also what makes it cool imo. FFVII Remake and Rebirth are nothing like the original, but that's what makes them cool imo

For all the decisions VII Remake took, yeah I'd rather we have what we have now, because the OG exists, it's not lost in time and perfectly playable. I think we end up richer with two expressions of the same story, divided by generations of technology and cultural advancement.

I'm playing the OG now, which was interesting because while I have newfound appreciation to both OG and Remake/Rebirth, I also found more decisions I disagree about Remake/Rebirth's decisions. I'm pretty sure the reasons behind these decisions are human, as in it's just more creatively fulfilling for the team to make some changes to Remake/Rebirth than just following it 1:1. Gonna go back to OG after I finish Rising Tide and write about it.

Speaking of Rising Tide, man I love XVI. SE definitely had it in them for a breakout hit, they just need to make stuff like XVI and VIIR more often. Preferably without the baggage of previous titles. Easy to say but hey.

Yuuber · Apr 18, 2024

Being exclusive isn't the problem. The only platform that would have dramatically shifted sales would be a Nintendo one and the Switch can't run this game. A Switch 2 release would be pretty incredible I think.

Linus815 · Apr 18, 2024

Yuuber said:
Being exclusive isn't the problem. The only platform that would have dramatically shifted sales would be a Nintendo one and the Switch can't run this game. A Switch 2 release would be pretty incredible I think.

Of course its a problem.
Its not 1998 anymore, PC audience doesnt have different tastes, if games like Yakuza, Persona, Tales and many other smaller, more niche JRPG can be hugely successful on P,C, then one of the most iconic, mainstream JRPG of them all can be too.

It takes some effort to build it up, squares scattershot approach of late &mediocre ports have definitely not been the way to do it though.

dgrdsv · Apr 18, 2024

Linus815 said:
Of course its a problem.
Its not 1998 anymore, PC audience

The game will come to PC just as the first part did.
And I agree that besides PS5 and PC releases the rest of the platforms aren't important for a FF remake title.

Linus815 · Apr 18, 2024

dgrdsv said:
The game will come to PC just as the first part did.
And I agree that besides PS5 and PC releases the rest of the platforms aren't important for a FF remake title.

Of course it will.
But from a sales standpoint, the most effective time to sell your game is at the peak of your marketing cycle which would have been alongside the Playstation release. Also thats probably when people are "most accepting" of the 80 euro price tag, I'm gonna be very curious how they'll price 16 and Rebirth on PC at launch.

dgrdsv · Apr 18, 2024

Linus815 said:
But from a sales standpoint, the most effective time to sell your game is at the peak of your marketing cycle which would have been alongside the Playstation release.

Yes and no, depends on where we are in a console lifecycle I'd say or to be more precise - how many PS5 owners are there right now.

foxuzamaki · Apr 18, 2024

dgrdsv said:
Yes and no, depends on where we are in a console lifecycle I'd say or to be more precise - how many PS5 owners are there right now.

Most PC owners are not gonna pay $70 for a late port. Period

oty · Apr 18, 2024

plow said:
Yeah it's silly i think. People take LAD and Persona as series that are growing compared to Final Fantasy and take that as a confirmation that SE is doing everything wrong with the series. The truth could very well be, that the 8-10 million is a ceiling for these kind of games.

even if it is only 8/10 mil, which is a wild assumption, then SE is still doing something wrong if they cant catch up with the sales of their own games from 8 years ago. there's no other possible perception of FF's sales since then that doesn't prove the series isn't in decline. it's just numbers....going down, in a similar period.

HK-47 said:
8 million has always been a mainstream hit. Very few games reach more than that. It just became more popular with BotW. If Zelda started selling 50 million a game, would BotW suddenly not be mainstream either?

Jimmy Joe said:
This is ahistorical

Sorry for the tangent, and I don't mean this to be aggressive, but I thought it was worth pointing out

TonyBaduy said:
What sale's threshold would it have need to sell over to be considered mainstream during that era though? If we are going by 20m-40m then most games were definitely not mainstream, just a couple Mario games, the Wii Sports/Fit series, Minecraft, Kinect Adventures and GTAIV would have been the only mainstream games during that time, not even Just Dance 3 cracked 10m on Wii at the time from what I am seeing so... Maybe you are being too restrictive about what you consider mainstream fo the time?

oh yeah, absolutely it was gaming mainstream, but I thought we were talking more about general entertainment mainstream. BotW/TotK was mainstream entertainment because gaming has reached that point where that can happen (and happen more consistently) and because Nintendo absolutely hit it out of the park with the games, the consoles, their marketing plan, etc. it influenced entire other ecosystems like youtube, tik tok, twitter, instagram, news outlets, etc. it formed a zeitgeist that even if you were into gaming, you could be influenced by it. similar to Elden Ring in 2022 or New Horizons in the pandemic

but no one thought that Zelda could do that, specially after Skyward Sword. you could very much argue that 8m was the ceiling for it back then, except it really wasnt.

sfortunato · Apr 18, 2024

Deluxera said:
People expecting a JRPG to sell 10+ million in this day and age are not in check with reality. When you look at franchises comparable to FF in terms of demographics, like Tales or Xenoblade, 3-4 million seems to be the ceiling. Persona 5 and Nier Automata managed to clear the 5 million mark and it was considered the biggest breakout for Japanese franchises of their generation.

It's not a matter of budget. If anything it shows that mainline Final Fantasy is vastly overproduced relatively to the audience it has nowadays.

Final Fantasy was selling 8-10m units when the ceiling for other jRPGs was 2m worldwide. Also, Nier Automata cleared 8m units.

People don't care whether it's a jRPG or not, otherwise they wouldn't buy Dragon Quest or even Pokémon if the issue is being a traditional turn-based jRPG. People care about interesting games. The genre matters until a certain point. Final Fantasy can still achieve high numbers in my opinion as XV sold 10m. Latest weren't interesting enough for the general public to sell as much.

plow said:
Do you have any tangible proof, that Final Fantasy would grow outside the 8-10 million if it would be turn based instead? You picked two game series that grew, because they are releasing on every single platform on the planet instead of being on just one. Both LAD and Persona would have grown shit if they remained Playstation exclusive.

Final Fantasy issue with growth is not it's "gameplay". It's the fact that the series is gated behind a singular platform that while incredibly strong in many parts of the world, is crashing down in Japan, Final Fantasies strongest market.

I didn't say Final Fantasy should be turn-based...? The point was, the issue with Final Fantasy isn't being a jRPG as even traditional turn-based jRPG franchises can grow (Persona, Like A Dragon) or even sell better (Dragon Quest, Pokémon). The issue with Final Fantasy, in my opinion, relates to the reliability of the franchise, its identity, platform choice and ultimately gameplay choices.

GhostTrick · Apr 18, 2024

dgrdsv said:
The game will come to PC just as the first part did.
And I agree that besides PS5 and PC releases the rest of the platforms aren't important for a FF remake title.

Even though I would expect most of the sales to come from PS/PC, I wouldn't say "other platforms aren't important".
On that kind of title, there's no way the ROI on a Switch 2 port or even Xbox port would be bad, on top of generating more word of mouth/coverage.

As for the game coming to PC, while it's not a matter of if but when, there's still two big issues:
1) The timing: Later releases sell less than day and date releases. And while some will argue "it doesn't prevent from some titles (those from Rockstar) to sell well." while true, it also means these titles would've sold way better if day and date.
2) The care given to the release: Just dumping a game on Steam isn't how you release a game on PC. I'm not even going to adress port quality/extra care, just the way SE actually does things now, where they just dump a press release on a tuesday to say "game is releasing tomorrow". (That's also the point of day and date releases: you spend way less on marketing).

shinbojan · Apr 18, 2024

foxuzamaki said:
Most PC owners are not gonna pay $70 for a late port. Period

Why should they? I would pay $70 if it was released on a pc day 1.
I have ps5, but I was not satisfied with the demo so I've decided to wait. And if I can wait for 6-9 months, I can wait until the game is 30$.

Rurouni · Apr 18, 2024

Son of Sparda said:
I think this is actually more on SE not following up on XV's commercial success than XV not being able to draw in a newer/younger audience.

This is has more validity to it than most other claims, not counting Versus but XV's marketing push from Uncovered Event - various major outlets was more effective than what XVI/Rebirth pushed.

And ir runs deeper, the episodic-styled trilogy releases just aren't going to cut it at all for commercial growth. Especially for a JRPG franchise with a history of sequels selling less, we're just now seeing that even FF7's legacy can't carry them over irregardless of exclusivity.

Squall93 · Apr 18, 2024

GhostTrick said:
there's no way the ROI on a Switch 2 port

We will perhaps wait for the release of the Switch 2 and see how it performs in terms of sales to say whether or not a port of FF7 will make sales explode. You have to be careful with Nintendo on consoles that follow one of their successful consoles

Lockheartilly9799 · Apr 18, 2024

I'm sad that the sales are underperforming but I'm happy that Rebirth is a phenomenal video game. I wish it sold more. It deserves it. I think this is a lesson going forward. If they were to Remake older games, just keep them linear and cut out stuff if you need to so that it can fit in one game. I'm glad they didn't do this with VIIR but it's a tough proposition otherwise because none of the other single player FF's have the cache that VII does. For new games, I'd say if you wanted sequels, plan it out in advance but keep it secret. Like make the first game only in a continent and give it a definitive ending just in case the sales underperform and they can move on without the sequel if that is the case. If it does gangbusters then they have their Plan B and can ramp up the sequel.

GhostTrick · Apr 18, 2024

Squall93 said:
We will perhaps wait for the release of the Switch 2 and see how it performs in terms of sales to say whether or not a port of FF7 will make sales explode. You have to be careful with Nintendo on consoles that follow one of their successful consoles

I mean, if this was a worry, neither XVI and VII Rebirth could've been greenlit as PS5 exclusives.
We're not talking about making an exclusive title here, merely porting a game.

Squall93 · Apr 18, 2024

GhostTrick said:
I mean, if this was a worry, neither XVI and VII Rebirth could've been greenlit as PS5 exclusives.
We're not talking about making an exclusive title here, merely porting a game.

I'm not talking to you about S.E.'s desire to port the game to Switch 2 but about the sales potential of this game on Switch 2 and we don't know anything about that.

I also see a lot of people using the sales of FF15 and especially its big start by arguing that if FF16 had also been released on day one on Xbox and Steam it would have had similar sales or even would have done better.

Well, I'm not sure. Because we must not forget that FF15 is the FF which had the biggest marketing campaign in the history of an FF with a film, an anime, a Hollywood casting, a big public conference in LA ect.... There was none of this for FF16 or FF7. And not to mention the fact that after the disappointment of FF13 and FF15, this also caused a loss of players in the Final Fantasy franchise.

AuthenticM · Apr 18, 2024

Squall93 said:
I'm not talking to you about S.E.'s desire to port the game to Switch 2 but about the sales potential of this game on Switch 2 and we don't know anything about that.

I also see a lot of people using the sales of FF15 and especially its big start by arguing that if FF16 had also been released on day one on Xbox and Steam it would have had similar sales or even would have done better.

Well, I'm not sure. Because we must not forget that FF15 is the FF which had the biggest marketing campaign in the history of an FF with a film, an anime, a Hollywood casting, a big public conference in LA ect.... There was none of this for FF16 or FF7. And not to mention the fact that after the disappointment of FF13 and FF15, this also caused a loss of players in the Final Fantasy franchise.

Speculation about the sales of the game on the switch isn't really the same as that of the sales on Xbox. The sales of JRPGs or japanese games on Xbox are a known quantity: they don't sell much, if at all. Switch, on the other hand, is a different story. In this day and age, games must be released on the Switch if they want to reach their full sales potential in Japan. Japan in Nintendoland at this point. And even in the West, there's a lot of people who prefer playing their games on the switch because of their preference for the handheld experience.

In any case, we shall see because I can guarantee you that Square will port Remake and Rebirth to the Switch 2 when they get the opportunity. I wouldn't even be surprised if one of the games, or both of them, is featured in the marketing for the launch of the console.

Gay Bowser · Apr 18, 2024

Squall93 said:
You have to be careful with Nintendo on consoles that follow one of their successful consoles

Outside of the Virtual Boy (and Pokémon mini, smartasses), Nintendo has never had a portable platform that failed to move 75M units.

The idea that the Switch successor, even if it fails to reach the highs of the Switch, could be some sort of Wii U-style collapse isn't really supported by history. It's like acting like the PlayStation 6 could potentially sell like the Vita. I guess it's theoretically possible, but...it won't.

AuthenticM said:
The sales of JRPGs or japanese games on Xbox are a known quantity: they don't sell much, if at all.

This feels like less of a known quantity and more like something that might have been true fifteen years ago that people are just assuming is still true today. Capcom and Sega/Atlus seem happy with how their games are performing on Xbox.

Squall93 · Apr 18, 2024

AuthenticM said:
In any case, we shall see because I can guarantee you that Square will port Remake and Rebirth to the Switch 2 when they get the opportunity. I wouldn't even be surprised if one of the games, or both of them, is featured in the marketing for the launch of the console.

Ah but the game will be released on Switch 2 I have no doubt and even on Xbox. I'm talking once again just about the sales potential

Supercrap · Apr 18, 2024

I only see one way to fix things.... PS5 pro launch edition ff7 rebirth theme console

Cappy · Apr 18, 2024

Squall93 said:
Ah but the game will be released on Switch 2 I have no doubt and even on Xbox. I'm talking once again just about the sales potential

I think there has to be a levelheaded understanding that while there is no hard proof specifically as it relates to Final Fantasy 7, there is also no real doubt there would be a substantial number of players on Steam and Xbox who would have bought the game had it been released at the same time as the PS5. You can get into the business side of does it make a lot more money than what Sony paid, all things we don't know but could be argued, but if we're talking about growing a franchise, making sure it hits the widest possible audience is simply something you have to do. If the argument is that *only* PlayStation owners care about Final Fantasy, that paints a real bad picture for the series in general, regardless of which one we're talking about. But I think we all actually know that is not true.

DesVoeux · Apr 18, 2024

Deluxera said:
It's not a matter of budget. If anything it shows that mainline Final Fantasy is vastly overproduced relatively to the audience it has nowadays.

Yeah, I love Final Fantasy, but they should not keep acting as if the franchise is the industry leader it once was. Maybe start small(er) and build back up to blockbusters. "Remaking" a game from 1997 into a massive trilogy seems like hubris to me.

Squall93 · Apr 18, 2024

Cappy said:
would be a substantial number of players on Steam and Xbox who would have bought the game had it been released at the same time as the PS5.

I don't think that releasing a game later on other machines really plays a real role in this, as long as we stay within a reasonable window (1 year max), but rather the quality of the port, the store and of course the price when you decide to release a game on PC. They worked well for FF15 (steam release, $40 and quality port) and completely screwed up the FF7 remake. For me if FF16 comes out in good condition on PC we will then be able to judge whether or not the release is delayed and as problematic as some here say.

Daniel Ahmad (ZhugeEX): Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth is underperforming sales wise. Selling about half of what Remake sold in the same timeframe

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