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David Jaffe (creator of God of War) has a bone to pick with ResetEra.
- Thread starter Tangled Up in Blue
- Start date
- Status
I can't be bothered to re-formulate all the posts I've made on this or the exchanges I've had with Jaffe about it, so I'll just paste my posts/tweets.
I will say though that I do agree with him to one extent in that many posters here can sometimes be extremely vitriolic, knee jerk or sensationalist. But I suppose that's more of an Internet or online anonymity thing than a specifically ResetEra thing.
______
@nib95_
I think part of the reason you received so much backlash to the alt-left term, or to wanting to provide a platform to people like Milo, is because you're trying to draw an equivalence between the left and right when presently there isn't a fair one. Far right or alt right politics or coverage, specifically its incitement of hate, misinformation, fear mongering, xenophobia etc, is lending to a massive increase in far right terrorism, mass shootings, racist or bigoted hate crimes, unwarranted killings, mass incarceration, laws and policies that ostracise or marginalise minorities, women (with abortion etc) and so on, notably to a much greater degree than other political or social leanings. Eg vitriol and policies that are destroying hundreds of thousands or millions of lives.
Hell, 57% of all US terrorist attacks last year were tied to far right motivations. Think about that for a moment. The majority of terrorist attacks on US soil are by psychopaths who have been brainwashed by far right hate and fear mongering. Infact in recent times there has been considerably more far right terrorism in the US than there has been extreme religious, or Islamic, or left wing, and its only rising because we've been giving a platform to these kinds of hate preachers.
The same cannot be said to even close to the same extent for left wing politics or ideals in the US, so when you try to draw an equivalence it just comes off as somewhat short sighted and dangerous.
-------
@nib95_
Firstly people offering their opinions about not wanting to provide a platform to hateful agendas and ideals is their right by law too. FB, Twitter etc are private businesses, if they see value in those de-platforming calls, that's on them. It's a business choice first & foremost
@nib95_
2nd, the law argument is short sighted. Sure, the law exists for some degree of checks & balances, but legal system & procedure can be v slow. Legal action is also usually only taken after enough public noise has been made. Dangerous ideals can still curtail law for a long time
>@davidscottjaffe
So what? In the mean time we resort to mob rule and just let people shout down whomever the mob happens to be against on any given day?
>>@nib95_
That's presently exactly what happens. People (inc yourself) using whatever platform they can to put out their opinions, some more extreme than others. People on all sides doing what they think is best, & businesses making their own calls based on level of detriment to others
>>>@davidscottjaffe
then one group has resorted to mob rule and taken it upon themselves to decide what the rest of the student body get to listen to. That is wrong. And dangerous.
>>>>@nib95_
All groups already do that Jaffe. I feel like you're being a bit naive or singular in thinking here. Eg Alt rightists try shut down left wing or activist people all the time, BLM, Palestinian groups, left wing politicians, minorities, feminists, religious groups, refugees etc.
>>>>>@davidscottjaffe
And I am opposed to it across the board. As should everyone be. It's embarrassing that we claim to be a country that values freedom of expression when- in reality- we only value freedom of expression of ideas that we already like.
>>>>>>@nib95_
See my post here about free speech. Free speech also comes with checks & balances in any modern and civilised society to protect its civilians.
https://t.co/sAFwj76gfH
>>>>>>@nib95_
It's ultimately up to businesses to decide which calls and campaigns warrant merit. Clearly twitter & others by their own ToS saw that Milos hate spewing was dangerous & against policy. Don't blame leftists for that. Blame Milo.
>>>>>>>@davidscottjaffe
I've never blamed anyome BUT Milo (or Alex Jones,etc.) for being kicked off social sites. If I ran the sites, I woulda kicked him off. Was never a part of my argument, tweets, or videos. I never said otherwise.
>>>>>>>>@nib95_
So what is your grievance with what you term as the alt left then? That they'd rather not people with dangerous, misinforming, bigoted or hateful agendas & views have huge platforms to spew dangerous vitriol? You dislike the opinions of people who dislike the opinions of others?
@nib95_
3rd, right now far-right agenda & policies lending to vast majority of terrorism in US being far-right motivated, as well as huge increase in hate crimes, racism, bigotry, policies that ostracise minorities etc. Not a fair equivalence to be drawn with left with policies & ideals
>@davidscottjaffe
I assume you are referring to my alt-left comment. So then what term would you prefer? Because while I agree with your point that alt-right is highly tied to terrorists acts, JUST in terms of comparing EXTREME IDEOLOGIES of the respective parties,
>>@nib95_
Point I'm making is that in terms of damage and level of extremity (highlighted by terrorism, policies etc), there is no fair equivalence. The extremity of what each side wants in real world terms differs greatly in detriment. But to your point, I just say extreme left.
>>>@davidscottjaffe
Terrorism I agree on. There is no equivalency. The alt-right is bat shit crazy in that regard and the alt-left/extreme left is - far as I know- innocent on that front. On the other stuff? I'm not so sure.
I will say though that I do agree with him to one extent in that many posters here can sometimes be extremely vitriolic, knee jerk or sensationalist. But I suppose that's more of an Internet or online anonymity thing than a specifically ResetEra thing.
______
@nib95_
I think part of the reason you received so much backlash to the alt-left term, or to wanting to provide a platform to people like Milo, is because you're trying to draw an equivalence between the left and right when presently there isn't a fair one. Far right or alt right politics or coverage, specifically its incitement of hate, misinformation, fear mongering, xenophobia etc, is lending to a massive increase in far right terrorism, mass shootings, racist or bigoted hate crimes, unwarranted killings, mass incarceration, laws and policies that ostracise or marginalise minorities, women (with abortion etc) and so on, notably to a much greater degree than other political or social leanings. Eg vitriol and policies that are destroying hundreds of thousands or millions of lives.
Hell, 57% of all US terrorist attacks last year were tied to far right motivations. Think about that for a moment. The majority of terrorist attacks on US soil are by psychopaths who have been brainwashed by far right hate and fear mongering. Infact in recent times there has been considerably more far right terrorism in the US than there has been extreme religious, or Islamic, or left wing, and its only rising because we've been giving a platform to these kinds of hate preachers.
The same cannot be said to even close to the same extent for left wing politics or ideals in the US, so when you try to draw an equivalence it just comes off as somewhat short sighted and dangerous.
-------
@nib95_
Firstly people offering their opinions about not wanting to provide a platform to hateful agendas and ideals is their right by law too. FB, Twitter etc are private businesses, if they see value in those de-platforming calls, that's on them. It's a business choice first & foremost
@nib95_
2nd, the law argument is short sighted. Sure, the law exists for some degree of checks & balances, but legal system & procedure can be v slow. Legal action is also usually only taken after enough public noise has been made. Dangerous ideals can still curtail law for a long time
>@davidscottjaffe
So what? In the mean time we resort to mob rule and just let people shout down whomever the mob happens to be against on any given day?
>>@nib95_
That's presently exactly what happens. People (inc yourself) using whatever platform they can to put out their opinions, some more extreme than others. People on all sides doing what they think is best, & businesses making their own calls based on level of detriment to others
>>>@davidscottjaffe
then one group has resorted to mob rule and taken it upon themselves to decide what the rest of the student body get to listen to. That is wrong. And dangerous.
>>>>@nib95_
All groups already do that Jaffe. I feel like you're being a bit naive or singular in thinking here. Eg Alt rightists try shut down left wing or activist people all the time, BLM, Palestinian groups, left wing politicians, minorities, feminists, religious groups, refugees etc.
>>>>>@davidscottjaffe
And I am opposed to it across the board. As should everyone be. It's embarrassing that we claim to be a country that values freedom of expression when- in reality- we only value freedom of expression of ideas that we already like.
>>>>>>@nib95_
See my post here about free speech. Free speech also comes with checks & balances in any modern and civilised society to protect its civilians.
https://t.co/sAFwj76gfH
>>>>>>@nib95_
It's ultimately up to businesses to decide which calls and campaigns warrant merit. Clearly twitter & others by their own ToS saw that Milos hate spewing was dangerous & against policy. Don't blame leftists for that. Blame Milo.
>>>>>>>@davidscottjaffe
I've never blamed anyome BUT Milo (or Alex Jones,etc.) for being kicked off social sites. If I ran the sites, I woulda kicked him off. Was never a part of my argument, tweets, or videos. I never said otherwise.
>>>>>>>>@nib95_
So what is your grievance with what you term as the alt left then? That they'd rather not people with dangerous, misinforming, bigoted or hateful agendas & views have huge platforms to spew dangerous vitriol? You dislike the opinions of people who dislike the opinions of others?
@nib95_
3rd, right now far-right agenda & policies lending to vast majority of terrorism in US being far-right motivated, as well as huge increase in hate crimes, racism, bigotry, policies that ostracise minorities etc. Not a fair equivalence to be drawn with left with policies & ideals
>@davidscottjaffe
I assume you are referring to my alt-left comment. So then what term would you prefer? Because while I agree with your point that alt-right is highly tied to terrorists acts, JUST in terms of comparing EXTREME IDEOLOGIES of the respective parties,
>>@nib95_
Point I'm making is that in terms of damage and level of extremity (highlighted by terrorism, policies etc), there is no fair equivalence. The extremity of what each side wants in real world terms differs greatly in detriment. But to your point, I just say extreme left.
>>>@davidscottjaffe
Terrorism I agree on. There is no equivalency. The alt-right is bat shit crazy in that regard and the alt-left/extreme left is - far as I know- innocent on that front. On the other stuff? I'm not so sure.
What is this "which version of hate" bullshit?
Is he trying to say "fuck all Nazis" and "fuck all jews" is the same?
You don't need any laws or fucking amendments to tell you what is hate speech and should be band.
And this isn't a debate about if what he or others said is ban-worthy anyways..
Holy crap your fast my post must have been up for like 20 seconds lol
He's advocating for the free speech of Nazis, plus for a White Nation.
We're not being hyperbolic. This isn't "FF7 is a PS8 exclusive? Fuck that".
This is literally not being tolerant of a fascist sympathizer, who deserves to be outed and branded.
You're telling people to tone police at best and your Both Sides-ing at worst.
Is this the guy who made god of war?
Wasn't he supposed to be working on GoW2 and actually making a better game? Why even bother to discuss on a forum!?
Wasn't he supposed to be working on GoW2 and actually making a better game? Why even bother to discuss on a forum!?
You are all missing the point here... we are really at the point where the "alt-right" decide to take one random word and transform it in an hate word and suddently we can't use it anymore?
So what's next, they are gonna take "Metal Gear" as a metaphor of the rusty mechanism that prevails on the leftist's robotic mind and some other bullshit like that so we can't say/use those words anymore?
Really? We are giving to those people this kind of power?
This is mental, I'm never going to be part of this madness and I'll going to continue to use the NPC word like it's meant to be, otherwise "they" win and will always do if we continue to act like this, wtf...
EDIT: to other people that told me to use google... again, that's not the point, and what this even mean?
Now I have to google every single word I wrote to see if it became an "hate word"? I mean, NPC is a so random, how I would ever know that it's a thing?
"By using google"... pls stop.
I repeat myself, this is crazy.
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I think Jaffe is making a fool of himself but I do think we as a community can be quite trigger happing in jumping from "I disagree with your opinion on this movie" to "You not liking this thing makes me suspect you're secretly a Nazi". I don't know, I'm kind of crushed from work and the stress of the last few days before my second daughter is born (hooray!), but sometimes browsing ERA feels... depressing.
BossAttack made a brilliant thread a few months ago about the value of fun on this board. I don't want any of the values and principles of ERA or its people to change. But I think we need to somehow reclaim our capability to have fun with things. Expecially because of the dark times we live in. And maybe promote discussion that is proactive and indept (there's a lot, here, but I feel it's somewhat lessened compared to the old place) and that is born from what we think and not from how we react to how they think.
to make it a little more clear, i'll give another example: calling someone a "bugman" is frowned upon as well, but feel free to still keep talking about Mothra
i forgot about all the roving gangs stopping people from using the letters 'NPC' in forum posts
Do you live in a world completely free of context and intent?
Nobody will misinterpret you using that term in a gaming context. But because a lot of alt-right people use that term to describe the left, if you do the same, yeah, expect some side eye at the very least.
I just came to know that he has a YouTube channel. However, his average views per video is 500.
That's how life generally is - if you say something stupid, people will call you out for it. It's not a matter of a difference of opinion.
I've nothing at all against Jaffe but this is the internet. The most powerful thing anyone has on the internet is a voice, one that can reach so many people it's insane. Take this thread as the perfect example - if anyone here wanted to talk to David Jaffe twenty years ago, the most we could have done is sent a letter and hoped he read it and replied. Yet here we are, fucking tweeting back and forth because that's what the internet allows us to do. That's how loud a voice each of us now has.
So when a guy uses that voice to incite hatred, to push a message that divides us specifically because he doesn't like us being united, to promote the very behaviours and beliefs of misogyny and racism that we've been trying to weed out, we absolutely should take his voice from him.
The rise of white extremism in the last few years is terrible and taken so many lives already and folks like Milo Yiannopoulos and Alex Jones are encourging that behaviour. The less of a platform we give them, the less people they reach and the less lives are at risk.
At some point a person has to look at themselves and ask themselves "wait....are assholes/the alt-right/Nazis/what-have-you agreeing with me?" If the answer is "yes," then maybe there is something fundamentally wrong with your position. Not being a bigot isn't really a purity test. It's being a goddamn decent human being. If a public figure doesn't want to do that, then that's on them. They have to make a choice - either cater to their consumers who support bigotry and division, or cater to those who support inclusiveness and empathy. Those two things are diametrically opposed, and here's a hint: only one of those sides has a place in a civilized world. If you're THAT worried about losing your alt-right fanbase, then maybe the issue isn't your fans.
Regarding purity tests - there are "purity tests" and then there is simply being cognizant of how different people want to be treated. I'm a straight, white dude. My experiences in life have been totally different from someone that's a PoC, or LGBT+, for instance. But in having conversations with people and doing my own research, I've been able to gain a firmer grasp on those topics (there are certainly some things that I just will never "understand," having never been in their shoes, though - thankfully I have peers that can help with things like that). If you have the capacity to learn, and the wherewithal to do so, then even if you don't know, for instance, the correct way to refer to someone that is transgender, then you can eventually get there. But ignoring that desire to learn and understand, and simply coming in with your hot takes and the like - that's not gonna fly. The FAQ can pretty much be boiled down to "Don't be a bigot or cape for bigots, and don't be an asshole (and for the love of god stop console warring)." I really don't think that's that difficult (or insane, as you put it) to get past if you possess empathy in some fashion.
This is excusing too much of what he's said recently. I know it's nice to believe that maybe he's just an older guy accidentally bumbling into dumb situations but he's out here advocating a platform for a literal white supremacist while having the most insane views about how we should entertain the idea of a white ethnostate. It's too much to just handwave as a guy with good intentions not being great at getting his message across
This whole thing is a parody.
The individual cannot define hate speech, it's up to the regulators or the appointee which are elected, to do so.
Many people comparing "In Europe hate speech is banned", but hate speech in Europe is mostly defined as obvious racism and call to violence upon another group. Milo, Jordan B, or Ben sharpiro would never be banned or classified as hate speech in most EU countries. In fact, I believe in none.
The individual cannot define hate speech, it's up to the regulators or the appointee which are elected, to do so.
Many people comparing "In Europe hate speech is banned", but hate speech in Europe is mostly defined as obvious racism and call to violence upon another group. Milo, Jordan B, or Ben sharpiro would never be banned or classified as hate speech in most EU countries. In fact, I believe in none.
I don't know what the hell are you talking about, in this case I really need to use google :'D
Can we, at least, have the be benefit of the doubt without jumping on people throat?
That's all I ask, otherwise, soon or later, it will be impossible to talk about anything without the fear of "banned" word, in or out of context.
there is a very clear context for those using it as part of the alt right meme
no one will give two shits if you talk about Skyrim NPCs
There is absolutely no way that he happened to stumble upon a term that is currently in vogue with the alt right by accident. Before the alt right starting using it when did you *ever* hear someone refer to someone else as an NPC? He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt, he very clearly knew what he was doing
Context matters. If I throw the "OK" hand sign when my wife asks me to take out the trash in the morning, it's not gonna be misrepresented as "White Power." If I'm talking about doing something in Red Dead Redemption 2, talking about an NPC will make complete sense.
It's not a banned word.
Are you going to be describing other real life people as NPCS anytime soon?
We didn't choose to will this meme into existence. If you're getting upset at us over whether you can use NPC to describe real life leftists you're getting upset at the wrong people.
I think on some level people who frame the discussion this way are missing the forest for the trees. I don't think Jaffe has gotten any serious accusations of being an actual Nazi in this thread. That being said, when you tweet "I support the right of people to publicly express their want to establish a white ethnostate and eradicate minorities," well, I don't think Jaffe wants to do any of that, but it's not a great look. He's not a Nazi, but by basically saying he's cool with Nazis being a thing and organizing in 2018, he is indirectly supporting them, whether he wants to or not.
I don't think browsing ERA is depressing (at least, not in the way you mean). In fact, I think seeing a form that is pretty much unanimously opposed to all of the awful things going on in the world today gives me hope. If we want to fight these awful ideologies, the only way to do so is to take a hard stance and not allow it to organize or spread. People who say things like "Well who is to say what is right and wrong?" are arguing in bad faith, imo. Shouldn't it be obvious that white supremacy is wrong? This isn't a slippery slope argument, it's a simple moral aptitude test.
I got a little off track there but hopefully this lays my ideas out in a clear enough way. Congrats on your daughter!
David "Manchild" Jaffe at it again. Don't flatter yourself, David. You're not "public enemy no. 1".
current twitter logo for Gab (alt-right twitter), ironically enough on twitter, is signaling the alt-right NPC meme
they were very miffed to see Milo punted from Patreon, and advertised their dying social media platform at the same time
they were very miffed to see Milo punted from Patreon, and advertised their dying social media platform at the same time
Thats exactly what i was trying to find out from him but he keeps changing it.
If you point out that private companies are allowed to block people he agrees but says there is a still a problem.
If you bring up that you never said governments should be allowed to block peoples speech he reacts with "I never said you think governments should do that" but he still has a problem.
I think essentially his argument boils down to 'I feel like this is a problem, even though i cant specify any actual issue, but since i feel like its bad im gonna keep arguing and change my points to suit my needs'.
Also it feels like a little Team America 'Fuck yeah' thrown in too.
If you try to pin him down to what the actual issue is, all he responds with is 'I never said that/I agree with that point....but the left are still bad and causing harm'
Also his obsession with responding with 'If you dont agree with things get the law changed but don't take away peoples free speech' is ridiculous and completely avoids any real understanding of how things work.
For instance, the OK gesture is now a hijacked alt-right symbol, but it's a very fucking specific variation of the gesture. That is by design. In order for these hijacks to work properly, they need to be used in very specific contexts and in very specific ways.
If you find yourself using it in those ways wittingly, congrats. You're a tool of the alt-right now.
indeed
there's a massive difference in using it for whatever banal reason, or to say 'OK'
but if you use it like this (front row middle, Black suit)
... yeah.
I was about to make a driveby on how the guy is just doing this to increase his youtube following... but looking through his vids (since he's been doing this since 2011) and having seen some of them, he is simply a controversial character that edges on quite a bit with what he is saying and then he likes to or just can't help it but to engage the controversy.
He is the one dude in your circle of friends that, over a beer goes into an argument and possibly into a rabbid hole until he starts talking about what he thinks and how he is not afraid of saying what he thinks and if you have a problem with it then you should look into why you have a problem with it because there certainly isn't a problem in the way he is conducting himself. (usually ends with f u)
Some call that confidence or honesty, some arrogance, others ignorance or rude (or even idiocy).
This character trait is a dime a dozen, you all probably have met such people and you ususally don't push those people in conversations to the brink because it's not worth the trouble.
Look through his videos, it's just the way he is. I don't really see a reason to make this bigger than it should be... but I don't want to defend the guy since he is a public person, more or less a gaming celeb and I have no stakes in this really so I will calmly leave this thread!
He is the one dude in your circle of friends that, over a beer goes into an argument and possibly into a rabbid hole until he starts talking about what he thinks and how he is not afraid of saying what he thinks and if you have a problem with it then you should look into why you have a problem with it because there certainly isn't a problem in the way he is conducting himself. (usually ends with f u)
Some call that confidence or honesty, some arrogance, others ignorance or rude (or even idiocy).
This character trait is a dime a dozen, you all probably have met such people and you ususally don't push those people in conversations to the brink because it's not worth the trouble.
Look through his videos, it's just the way he is. I don't really see a reason to make this bigger than it should be... but I don't want to defend the guy since he is a public person, more or less a gaming celeb and I have no stakes in this really so I will calmly leave this thread!
The god of war of 2018 or the god of war that was press x to rape ?
mmh jaffa cakes baby tell me more about how cool and chill you are as a white guy for not being so emotionally invested in arguments about hate speeches that affect the lives and wellbeing of women and minorities
sending america some liberal philosophies and free speech principles this christmas, ur welcome <3
sending america some liberal philosophies and free speech principles this christmas, ur welcome <3
I've been debating with people both informally and academically for a very long time. I can tell you from experience that one of the best ways to dismantle a person's argument in a way that they will be forced to concede is to use their own logic against them.
You're absolutely right that you don't need laws to tell you what hate speech is, but that's not an argument that will get anywhere with someone like Jaffe. That's why I chose to address the issue with his own logic. If he believes that the only clear way for him to know what hate speech is to see it written in law, then showing him where it is written in law is the most effective way in getting him to concede his argument. As a result, he now retreats to "I'm only talking about the US" as if the people in the US who protest hate speech aren't defining hate speech in the same way as the rest of the world, and this is where we can objectively dismantle the argument.
Yeah, exactly. What we're doing right now is part of the process of getting these laws changed, which seems to be completely lost on him.
Is that seriously a nazi thing now?indeed
there's a massive difference in using it for whatever banal reason, or to say 'OK'
but if you use it like this (front row middle, Black suit)
... yeah.
It's also a part of a dumb "game" (at least in the US) where if you look at someone's hand making that symbol they get to punch you. Teenagers did it all the time when I was that age and a few people on my FB timeline (who I KNOW aren't remotely right-leaning) had pictures of them doing it as a joke.
The alt right really does just co-opt perfectly normal shit into their own dog whistles, huh?
Edit: yeah, this thing: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=The+Circle+Game&=true
Yeah his appeal to authority is insane.
Without knowing it, he says that laws should never change, because the law tells us what is and isn't moral, which is completely backwards.
With that, they always have plausibel deniability and can attack the left for finding anything racist etc.
Without knowing it, he says that laws should never change, because the law tells us what is and isn't moral, which is completely backwards.
Yup, that's the whole point.
With that, they always have plausibel deniability and can attack the left for finding anything racist etc.
I'd like to believe he doesn't actually want that, and that there's something else driving this weirdo stance from him. But who knows anymore. That tweet is just ridiculous.
Right? It's such absolute nonsense. How ignorant can someone possibly be? Is Jaffe not familiar with history at all? Or current events? Frankly you only take this kind of position if you're all for this shit or if you're actually insane.
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yeah, the alt right used it mostly as a signifier to each other online using the emoji (👌) and in pictures
but if you just wanna punch your friend on the shoulder that's fine, most people see it either as 'OK' or as the circle game
Who cares. Seriously, he's a grown man. Avert your gaze and move along, Jaffe.
How do they tell the difference between someone playing the game and someone who's doing it as a dog whistle then? Like, I get that they want people on the left to go attack the normal people, but what about each other?
Oh right, like all those Pepe pics.
they use it as a gesture to others, obviously not in the context of 'OK' or the circle game
usually in photos
and I will repeat myself too: Guys, pleeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaase....
talking about NPC quests over on gaming side, or about that funny NPC in RDR 2 for example is totally fine.
but calling other people NPCs is right wing rethoric.
that isn't really that hard to understand, or is it?
but in this case he isn't just having a different opionion about a random movie.
he is advocating a pro right wing movie.
they use it as a gesture to others, obviously not in the context of 'OK' or the circle game
usually in photos
my friends and I have done this for years both in person and in photos as part of a childish game where we get to punch each other if we look at a hand in this circle when below the waist.
it's a stupid, childish game, but it's certainly nothing to do with any right wing bullshit.
Maybe being in the UK rather than the US makes this different...
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