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Buenoblue

Banned
May 5, 2018
313
I can't believe people are being suckered in by this stuff. This is a bad design. Xbox series x runs at 12TF/3.6ghz fixed. Always that speed with a noise level similar to Xbox one x, which is very quiet. So a high TF quiet console can be achieved with the right design and CU count. Cerny saying anything else is bull.

Sony made an error matching CU count to PS4 pro for back compat reasons, (even though they didn't achieve full back compat), and are now clocking there machine crazy high to try and make it seem closer to Xbox series x. This seems obvious to me.

I don't think Cerny has the know-how to build a fast quiet console. My original PS4 and PS4 pro were embarrassingly loud. I sold my pro for a slim cause it was so loud. The Xbox one x on the other hand is very quiet and more powerful.

Don't get me wrong I love PlayStation and have owned every one on release, and will almost certainly get the ps5. I just think they should be held accountable for design mistakes, much like the 360's red ring of death ( I went through 5 360's in the first year).
 

Adum

Member
May 30, 2019
925
I thought so too but apparently only the CPU or the GPU will run at full clock even in games that are not the so called worst case game. You have to choose a CPU or GPU priority and the non prioritized component drops clocks wildly.
Did you watch the presentation, or are you quoting a Timdog-like tweet/article? Because certain people on the internet and in this very forum are trying their very best to misquote Cerny and peddle misinformation as fact.

Mark Cerny very clearly stated that both the CPU and GPU would run at their max frequencies the majority of the time, and would only downclock in worst case scenarios by a few %.

Here is an excerpt from this reddit post, which goes very in-depth into the PS5 presentation.
The PS5 eschews years of traditional console design and goes for variable frequencies or boost clocks. However there is a huge misconception among people because of the word 'boost clocks'. To understand further, lets take a look at something that has boost clocks in the traditional sense - a PC processor (GPU or CPU, both will do). A PC processor usually has two clockspeed targets - a base clock (lower frequency) and a boost clock (higher frequency). Variable power will be supplied to the processor so that it consistently hits that base clock (so basically what the Series X is doing). However, if there is thermal headroom (i.e more power can be supplied to the chip without it overheating) the processor will be supplied with more power so that it hits the boost clock. However at this boost clock, the temperatures will start to rise and eventually the processor will have to come back to the base clock to prevent overheating. In this type of configuration, both the power and the frequency are variable.


The PS5's boost clock is not the same as this. Lots of people have been talking about how the teraflop number is a sham because the PS5 won't be able to run at this 'boost clock' most of the time. That is simply false and here's why:


The PS5 has a specific power limit i.e it's power consumption is not variable and is a consistent figure at all times. Thus the temperature that the chip outputs is the same at all times. This allows the designers to design a cooling system around the exact temperature that it outputs. What this means is that the PS5's fan is not gonna spin much faster or much slower depending on the how big or small power consumption is. Its going to spin based on ambient temps, as the thermal output of the processor is already know and they only need to account for the variance in ambient temps (which makes the temperature range that the cooling system has to be designed for much more predictable and exact i.e a one degree rise in ambient temperature can be more accurately accounted for than the rise in power consumption). So all the people who suffer through the obnoxiously loud and hot PS4s and PS4 Pros, rejoice for you have to suffer no longer (that is, if you're getting a PS5)!


How is Sony achieving this though? Well here is where the variable frequency part comes in. The PS5's processor will be able to see what the games are actually doing i.e what activity is going on in-game, and when those game scenarios occur where power consumption spikes up, it'll downclock. Game developers will be able to tell exactly when it is that this power consumption goes up and as such, be able to account for the reduced frequency then (so in a way, you have the predictability and reliability that comes with setting a specific frequency target, but it also mean that devs will have to work a bit harder to fine tune and optimise things). The crucial thing here is that it doesn't have to downclock by a lot. Remember when I said this a couple of paragraphs above:


Increase in power doesn't correspond to an equal increase in frequency i.e it does not scale linearly. To hit higher frequencies you need to input more and more amounts of power to the point where it becomes a case of diminishing results

Well the opposite is happening here. Decrease in Frequency leads to an exponential decrease in Power consumption. So a 2-3% decrease in frequency (that's about 40-70 MHz in the PS5's case) can deliver at least a 10% decrease in power consumption. So what this basically means is that the PS5 is going to be hitting the targeted clockspeed of 2.23 GHz most of the time (unlike a PC processor with boost clocks), when it downclocks it's not going to be by a significant amount (again, unlike a PC processor) and while doing all this it is going to remain cool and quiet. Quite an innovative and novel concept huh? This is why the PS5's variable frequency is unlike that of the boost clocks found on PC and shouldn't be compared.
 

artsi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,694
Finland
I can't believe people are being suckered in by this stuff. This is a bad design. Xbox series x runs at 12TF/3.6ghz fixed. Always that speed with a noise level similar to Xbox one x, which is very quiet. So a high TF quiet console can be achieved with the right design and CU count. Cerny saying anything else is bull.

Sony made an error matching CU count to PS4 pro for back compat reasons, (even though they didn't achieve full back compat), and are now clocking there machine crazy high to try and make it seem closer to Xbox series x. This seems obvious to me.

I don't think Cerny has the know-how to build a fast quiet console. My original PS4 and PS4 pro were embarrassingly loud. I sold my pro for a slim cause it was so loud. The Xbox one x on the other hand is very quiet and more powerful.

Don't get me wrong I love PlayStation and have owned every one on release, and will almost certainly get the ps5. I just think they should be held accountable for design mistakes, much like the 360's red ring of death ( I went through 5 360's in the first year).

Personally I'm going to see how it actually performs with real games, what the cooling solution is etc. before coming to any conclusions about how successful the design is.
 

Deleted member 61469

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 17, 2019
1,587
Did you watch the presentation, or are you quoting a Timdog-like tweet/article? Because certain people on the internet and in this very forum are trying their very best to misquote Cerny and peddle misinformation as fact.

Mark Cerny very clearly stated that both the CPU and GPU would run at their max frequencies the majority of the time, and would only downclock in worst case scenarios by a few %.

Here is an excerpt from this reddit post, which goes very in-depth into the PS5 presentation.

Pretty sure he is quoting DF who are quoting their dev sources.

Edit: about the prioritizing thing, they never said anything about wildly varying clocks
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,883
Here is what cerny has said:
So how fast can we run the CPU and GPU with this strategy? The simplest approach would be to look at the actual temperature of the sillicon die and throttle the frequency on that basis; But that wont work! It would fail to create a consistent PlayStation 5 experience, it wouldnt do to run a console slower simply because it was in a hot room. So rather than look at the actual temperature of the sillicon die, we look at the activities the GPU and CPU are performing and set the frequency on that basis, which makes everything deterministic and repeatable.

Its not just a simple inverse equation of clocks between CPU and GPU, the clock of the CPU and GPU is decided based on the load on the processor, its quite clearly stated here.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,800
I can't believe people are being suckered in by this stuff. This is a bad design. Xbox series x runs at 12TF/3.6ghz fixed. Always that speed with a noise level similar to Xbox one x, which is very quiet. So a high TF quiet console can be achieved with the right design and CU count. Cerny saying anything else is bull.

Sony made an error matching CU count to PS4 pro for back compat reasons, (even though they didn't achieve full back compat), and are now clocking there machine crazy high to try and make it seem closer to Xbox series x. This seems obvious to me.

I don't think Cerny has the know-how to build a fast quiet console. My original PS4 and PS4 pro were embarrassingly loud. I sold my pro for a slim cause it was so loud. The Xbox one x on the other hand is very quiet and more powerful.

Don't get me wrong I love PlayStation and have owned every one on release, and will almost certainly get the ps5. I just think they should be held accountable for design mistakes, much like the 360's red ring of death ( I went through 5 360's in the first year).

You seem very sure of yourself despite never having seen a game running on the PS5 or knowing how real world performance will fare against the XSX.

Might I suggest putting down your torch and pitchfork until we see actual results and benchmarks? Just chill and enjoy the ride until then. Cerny gave his reasons for liking narrow and fast in his talk, let's see if they result in any measurable advantage for the actual games.
 

Liabe Brave

Professionally Enhanced
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,672
Based on cerny's explanation it's quite clear that the power consumption of the system remains constant while the temperature may vary (but considering how the system works it shouldn't vary too much). He explicitly states that the power consumption remains constant and that they looked at using the temperature to decide the clock but decided against that because of too many variables, instead they clock the system based on the "activities of the CPU and the GPU".
From what I understand, the power supplied is constant or there is no max power because it already is at max power all the time, so the resulting temperatures are predictable.
Well, the power level may be relatively constant at max. But not literally all the time, is my point. As activity levels go down, so will the power. Surely PS5 won't draw 200W when you're in the OS, or watching video.
 

Buenoblue

Banned
May 5, 2018
313
You seem very sure of yourself despite never having seen a game running on the PS5 or knowing how real world performance will fare against the XSX.

Might I suggest putting down your torch and pitchfork until we see actual results and benchmarks? Just chill and enjoy the ride until then. Cerny gave his reasons for liking narrow and fast in his talk, let's see if they result in any measurable advantage for the actual games.

It jus seems disingenuous to put 10.28TF on a spec sheet and not have that machine hit those targets constantly, while giving no data on what it will run at in real world situations. For all we know ps5 could run at 9.2Tf in AAA games. It's just screams of marketing fluff to inflate numbers on a spec sheet to me.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,800
It jus seems disingenuous to put 10.28TF on a spec sheet and not have that machine hit those targets constantly, while giving no data on what it will run at in real world situations. For all we know ps5 could run at 9.2Tf in AAA games. It's just screams of marketing fluff to inflate numbers on a spec sheet to me.

Sure, if you weren't paying attention to what Cerny said. He noted they expect the system to be able to achieve those figures the majority of the time and only in worst case scenarios would we be seeing drops. And even when there are drops, they're noting a drop of a couple percent in frequency can make a major difference to thermals, in the area of 10%. So no, it's utterly silly to think it'll be dropping down to 9.2 TF.

There are people on this forum who've been explaining these things far better than I ever could. gofreak and Lady Gaia are 2 users I've been paying pretty close attention to for clarity on a lot of this. Not to mention the info we've gotten from the Digital Foundry folks both in their video and on the forum here, and NX Gamer in that thread of his video.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,659
People believing github leaks more than official number has been the biggest farce on the gaming side Era.

Pro-tip: never tell a PC enthusiast that his TF numbers on his 2080 ti are false because the card downclocks to 300 Mhz when not gaming.
 
Aug 9, 2018
666
I think the power could drop down just fine. They just have a strict max cutoff, where normally you just let the power fly and let the fan kick up to make up for the heat.

I think thats what he meant by constant and predictable: that it does have a hard max on power draw and thats whats constant about it. Normally, you have no max power limit. It'll go up to sustain clocks untill the fan can't keep up and the console shuts down from a combination of its own waste heat and ambient heat.

I THINK lol.
Again from what I understand, it's not the power that would go down but the frequencies of the CPU and/or the GPU to always be within the power limit. Ambient heat should not affect it at all, IIRC Cerny specifically mentioned that.

Well, the power level may be relatively constant at max. But not literally all the time, is my point. As activity levels go down, so will the power. Surely PS5 won't draw 200W when you're in the OS, or watching video.
Ah yes I would think so, what I meant was for games, there would be a set power limit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,852
It jus seems disingenuous to put 10.28TF on a spec sheet and not have that machine hit those targets constantly, while giving no data on what it will run at in real world situations. For all we know ps5 could run at 9.2Tf in AAA games. It's just screams of marketing fluff to inflate numbers on a spec sheet to me.
The Series X' 12.1TF is a peak theoretical performance limit also.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,893
I can't believe people are being suckered in by this stuff. This is a bad design. Xbox series x runs at 12TF/3.6ghz fixed. Always that speed with a noise level similar to Xbox one x, which is very quiet. So a high TF quiet console can be achieved with the right design and CU count. Cerny saying anything else is bull.

Sony made an error matching CU count to PS4 pro for back compat reasons, (even though they didn't achieve full back compat), and are now clocking there machine crazy high to try and make it seem closer to Xbox series x. This seems obvious to me.


I don't think Cerny has the know-how to build a fast quiet console. My original PS4 and PS4 pro were embarrassingly loud. I sold my pro for a slim cause it was so loud. The Xbox one x on the other hand is very quiet and more powerful.

Don't get me wrong I love PlayStation and have owned every one on release, and will almost certainly get the ps5. I just think they should be held accountable for design mistakes, much like the 360's red ring of death ( I went through 5 360's in the first year).

Who knows? You could be right. The thing is, at this moment, no one has enough information. You haven't seen the PS5. So, this post is based exclusively on your gut reaction. At the moment all we can do is take Cerny at his word. If you want to remain skeptical, that is fine; however, you shouldn't confuse your skepticism for factual information.

It jus seems disingenuous to put 10.28TF on a spec sheet and not have that machine hit those targets constantly, while giving no data on what it will run at in real world situations. For all we know ps5 could run at 9.2Tf in AAA games. It's just screams of marketing fluff to inflate numbers on a spec sheet to me.

But you don't know if 10.28TF IS disingenuous. Maybe it does regularly hit that target. That is the thing; we don't know yet.
 

Buenoblue

Banned
May 5, 2018
313
User Banned (5 days): Trolling over a series of posts; history of similar infractions
Yeah sorry. It's great that my new ps5 will
arbitrarily downclock from an already lower than expected performance level. I'm so lucky Cerny designed a lower performing console than the competition, that then gets less powerful. Genius.
Sure, if you weren't paying attention to what Cerny said. He noted they expect the system to be able to achieve those figures the majority of the time and only in worst case scenarios would we be seeing drops. And even when there are drops, they're noting a drop of a couple percent in frequency can make a major difference to thermals, in the area of 10%. So no, it's utterly silly to think it'll be dropping down to 9.2 TF.

There are people on this forum who've been explaining these things far better than I ever could. gofreak and Lady Gaia are 2 users I've been paying pretty close attention to for clarity on a lot of this. Not to mention the info we've gotten from the Digital Foundry folks both in their video and on the forum here, and NX Gamer in that thread of his video.

Yeah sorry. It's great that my new ps5 will
arbitrarily downclock from an already lower than expected performance level. I'm so lucky Cerny designed a lower performing console than the competition, that then gets less powerful. Genius.
 

RedSeim

Banned
Sep 24, 2019
65
It jus seems disingenuous to put 10.28TF on a spec sheet and not have that machine hit those targets constantly, while giving no data on what it will run at in real world situations. For all we know ps5 could run at 9.2Tf in AAA games. It's just screams of marketing fluff to inflate numbers on a spec sheet to me.
That's the point. TO YOU. Which doesn't mean its true.

In fact, have you ever seen a spec sheet of any PC GPU? The number it shows is always the maximum, and Noone comes here to complain about it being marketing fluff to inflate numbers.

For all we know PS5 could run at 10.28 tflops all the time and XSX run at 6, or a RTX 2080 at 4 flops average and no fanboy will come here to say its spec sheet was a lie.

Being said that, you should start assuming that PS5 will perform at 10.28 tflops "in real world situations" or you may be disappointed in the future when it does.
 

RedSeim

Banned
Sep 24, 2019
65
Yeah sorry. It's great that my new ps5 will
arbitrarily downclock from an already lower than expected performance level. I'm so lucky Cerny designed a lower performing console than the competition, that then gets less powerful. Genius.


Yeah sorry. It's great that my new ps5 will
arbitrarily downclock from an already lower than expected performance level. I'm so lucky Cerny designed a lower performing console than the competition, that then gets less powerful. Genius.
Ñ
Yeah sorry. It's great that my new ps5 will
arbitrarily downclock from an already lower than expected performance level. I'm so lucky Cerny designed a lower performing console than the competition, that then gets less powerful. Genius.


Yeah sorry. It's great that my new ps5 will
arbitrarily downclock from an already lower than expected performance level. I'm so lucky Cerny designed a lower performing console than the competition, that then gets less powerful. Genius.
Lower than expected? Or just lower than XSX?

I'm sure Sony engineers (as Xbox ones) are much more intelligent that you are. No offence.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,800
Yeah sorry. It's great that my new ps5 will
arbitrarily downclock from an already lower than expected performance level. I'm so lucky Cerny designed a lower performing console than the competition, that then gets less powerful. Genius.

Well it's up to you to decide what's acceptable. If you're going to be upset about this before seeing any actual games or benchmarks then that's on you. Me, I'm perfectly happy to sit back and wait for more info. Regardless, I'm 100% going to be getting my PS5 at launch :)

If you would like to further educate yourself on these matters based on the little info we have so far, then those 2 users I mentioned would be a great place to start by reading their posts, plus of course DF and NX Gamers videos are very informative.

Anyways, off to bed. G'nite! :)
 

Buenoblue

Banned
May 5, 2018
313
The Series X' 12.1TF is a peak theoretical performance limit also.

The series x will always be able to give 12.1TF if needed. Fans and power will increase when needed. This is how it should be done in a console.

I'd have less of a problem if Cerny had stated base performance is 9.8TF which can then be boosted to 10.28TF if thermals allow.

My 2700x doesn't say it runs at 4.3ghz. it says it runs at 3.7ghz, with the potential to run at 4.3ghz. Saying it the other way round is sneaky.
 

Deleted member 10612

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,774
No it will supply more voltage to sustain clocks. The cooler and power supply will need to have capacity for that.
Is this confirmed? I find it hard to believe MS is going to put in extra dollars, in an already high BOM console, just to account for edge/worst case scenarios. If they do, damn.

They all have thermal limits built-in. If it crosses that limit due to some extraordinary circumstances it'll throttle or straight up shut down to save the chip.
Thats what I'm thinking as well.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,608
I'd have less of a problem if Cerny had stated base performance is 9.8TF which can then be boosted to 10.28TF if thermals allow.
You'd prefer if he pulled a totally arbitrary number out of his ass because
I can't believe people are being suckered in by this stuff. This is a bad design. Xbox series x runs at 12TF/3.6ghz fixed. Always that speed with a noise level similar to Xbox one x, which is very quiet. So a high TF quiet console can be achieved with the right design and CU count. Cerny saying anything else is bull.

Sony made an error matching CU count to PS4 pro for back compat reasons, (even though they didn't achieve full back compat), and are now clocking there machine crazy high to try and make it seem closer to Xbox series x. This seems obvious to me.

I don't think Cerny has the know-how to build a fast quiet console. My original PS4 and PS4 pro were embarrassingly loud. I sold my pro for a slim cause it was so loud. The Xbox one x on the other hand is very quiet and more powerful.

Don't get me wrong I love PlayStation and have owned every one on release, and will almost certainly get the ps5. I just think they should be held accountable for design mistakes, much like the 360's red ring of death ( I went through 5 360's in the first year).

You just made a comparison between the red ring of death and the clock speeds varying by tiny amounts to keep a given power draw.

Go home, you're drunk.
 

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
Well it's up to you to decide what's acceptable.

Yep. Neither manufacturer spent their budget on new drives or camera peripherals this time either.

Seems like the closest you're going to get two consoles made in secret. People here were speculating a year ago neither would be double figure TFlops or include SSDs.
 

GhostofWar

Member
Apr 5, 2019
512
That's the point. TO YOU. Which doesn't mean its true.

In fact, have you ever seen a spec sheet of any PC GPU? The number it shows is always the maximum, and Noone comes here to complain about it being marketing fluff to inflate numbers.

For all we know PS5 could run at 10.28 tflops all the time and XSX run at 6, or a RTX 2080 at 4 flops average and no fanboy will come here to say its spec sheet was a lie.

Your wrong about the pc gpu, all spec sheets have a base clock listed and if your rtx 2080 is not hitting that base clock and running at 4tf you will get that replaced as its defective. They are also pretty conservative with boost clocks, and if you've visited pc hardware forums people do complain and rma boards not hitting boost clocks if their pc has no cooling or power issues.
 

beta

Member
Dec 31, 2019
176
The series x will always be able to give 12.1TF if needed. Fans and power will increase when needed. This is how it should be done in a console.

I'd have less of a problem if Cerny had stated base performance is 9.8TF which can then be boosted to 10.28TF if thermals allow.

But its not based on thermals, in anyway shape or form.
 

Buenoblue

Banned
May 5, 2018
313
Don't get me wrong, I will certainly be getting a ps5 at launch. And it's undoubtedly gonna be a powerful machine. I'm playing on a 2700x 2070 super and it's plenty powerful. I just think Sony messed up a little are are trying to fluff the numbers.

I bought an original Xbox one at launch for £430 even though I just bought a PS4 the week before. I was just as critical of the decisions they made with the Xbox one back then.

Just because I like these machines and will buy them doesn't mean I can't see their mistakes and be critical of them. Imagine a 56cu 14TF ps5, this would have been possible and I'm a little disappointed.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,832
Here is what cerny has said:


Its not just a simple inverse equation of clocks between CPU and GPU, the clock of the CPU and GPU is decided based on the load on the processor, its quite clearly stated here.

In real-world terms the GPU will be under heavy load almost all of the time. If the CPU has to underclock based on load then in most games it will underclock.
 

alstrike

Banned
Aug 27, 2018
2,151
I can't believe people are being suckered in by this stuff. This is a bad design. Xbox series x runs at 12TF/3.6ghz fixed. Always that speed with a noise level similar to Xbox one x, which is very quiet. So a high TF quiet console can be achieved with the right design and CU count. Cerny saying anything else is bull.

Sony made an error matching CU count to PS4 pro for back compat reasons, (even though they didn't achieve full back compat), and are now clocking there machine crazy high to try and make it seem closer to Xbox series x. This seems obvious to me.

I don't think Cerny has the know-how to build a fast quiet console. My original PS4 and PS4 pro were embarrassingly loud. I sold my pro for a slim cause it was so loud. The Xbox one x on the other hand is very quiet and more powerful.

Don't get me wrong I love PlayStation and have owned every one on release, and will almost certainly get the ps5. I just think they should be held accountable for design mistakes, much like the 360's red ring of death ( I went through 5 360's in the first year).

Your name makes my troll sense tingle, I'm reporting just in case.
 

Buenoblue

Banned
May 5, 2018
313
But its not based on thermals, in anyway shape or form.

No it's based on keeping the fan at a constant noise level. They fucked up with base PS4 and PS4 pro being so loud.

There solution to this is to keep the fan on Ps5 at a constant level and adjust the performance around this. they have come up with a convuluted way of keeping ps5 quiet which amounts to downclocking the GPU/CPU.

Imagine if your PS4 pro started downclocking itself instead of ramping up fans, and all of a sudden you were getting less frame rate. How is this acceptable design?

What they should have done was put more CU's at a lower frequency in a bigger box. That way you can have more power with less noise, a la Xbox series x.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,741
Just because I like these machines and will buy them doesn't mean I can't see their mistakes and be critical of them. Imagine a 56cu 14TF ps5, this would have been possible and I'm a little disappointed.

At a price, literally. They have a price target. This approach may let them squeeze a good bit more out of the silicon in many games - more bang for the buck they decided they could spend for a given price target. Going with 14tflops would not have been 'good' for anyone, including users, if it inflated the cost to a point that hobbled adoption and this developer focus/interest or hobbled the speed at which devs could prioritise next gen over cross gen development. Everything is a trade off on cost in the end. If you can ('typically') get more performance out of a given cost, that's good design IMO.
 

panda-zebra

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,741
The series x will always be able to give 12.1TF if needed. Fans and power will increase when needed. This is how it should be done in a console.

I'd have less of a problem if Cerny had stated base performance is 9.8TF which can then be boosted to 10.28TF if thermals allow.

It's not a function of thermals, but power. you're looking at the whole thing wrong and pulling numbers out of thin air.

No it's based on keeping the fan at a constant noise level.

I guess Cerny lied once again. How can he keep getting away with it? Thanks for keeping us informed.
 

Kaswa101

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,751
I like how people on Era are questioning Cerny's technical know-how when he's probably the most qualified engineer in the industry
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
In real-world terms the GPU will be under heavy load almost all of the time. If the CPU has to underclock based on load then in most games it will underclock.

There are different kinds of load that can all be classified as heavy workload. But my GPU does not work as hard in games compared to let's say a run of furmark.

Even in games the load varies all the time depending on what's on the screen and depending on what needs to be rendered. The game might be a heavy workload but the GPU, and CPU for that matter, will not be taxed to the fullest the entire time. The system Cerny came up with seeks to use this fact to lower powerdraw and thermals.

Cerny was pretty clear about this. Alot of people just choose to not understand and are pulling numbers out of their ass saying that the PS5 GPU will probably downclock to 9tf most of the time. It's transparant and pathetic.

Let's just wait and see by how much the clocks drops in the rare cases that the workload is actually too heavy for sustained clocks. A scenario that most likely will not happen all too often with Cerny himself having said that he expects the clocks to be running at the advertised speeds most of the time.
 

Buenoblue

Banned
May 5, 2018
313
At a price, literally. They have a price target. This approach may let them squeeze a good bit more out of the silicon in many games - more bang for the buck they decided they could spend for a given price target. Going with 14tflops would not have been 'good' for anyone, including users, if it inflated the cost to a point that hobbled adoption and this developer focus/interest or hobbled the speed at which devs could prioritise next gen over cross gen development. Everything is a trade off on cost in the end. If you can ('typically') get more performance out of a given cost, that's good design IMO.


Good points. There is always a trade off between price and performance. If ps5 can come in cheaper than the x that is not to be sniffed at. I just don't like Cerny not giving precise numbers on what ps5 will run at.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,741
In real-world terms the GPU will be under heavy load almost all of the time. If the CPU has to underclock based on load then in most games it will underclock.

I think it will depend on the cpu load also, if it stays within a certain level, it could maintain clocks, even if the gpu is under heavy load.

Probably the bigger thing is, though, if you're heavily gpu bound, you could reduce CPU performance to boost the GPU and not notice, unless and until the CPU frametime exceeds GPU frametime. In lopsided scenarios this is a clever design - the hw can effectively mold itself, to some degree, to the game's unique 'balance' between cpu and gpu consumption.

Where it becomes a different story is in games with even cpu/gpu frametime which go heavy on both. Therein I think is where developer's make a choice on which side to boost - I think that's where things like the priority flags Dictator mentioned become more relevant.
 

19thCenturyFox

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,309
Did you watch the presentation, or are you quoting a Timdog-like tweet/article? Because certain people on the internet and in this very forum are trying their very best to misquote Cerny and peddle misinformation as fact.

Mark Cerny very clearly stated that both the CPU and GPU would run at their max frequencies the majority of the time, and would only downclock in worst case scenarios by a few %.

Here is an excerpt from this reddit post, which goes very in-depth into the PS5 presentation.

From watching the presentation I came to the same conclusion as you did but Alex from Digital Foundry got some off the record info from PS5 developers and he had this to say:

Basically you target and say I want full GPU and the CPU underclocks so the Power Budget keeps the GPU clock high. The Power that would have been CPU Reserved goes over to the GPU to keep it's clock more stable, and since the CPU is now lower clocked, the more intense utilisation or instructions will not tip the Power Balance - well, that is for a game that is also not Absolutely thrashing both.
indeed this Info comes from people who work on the Thing.

Basically, if the Gpu is at 10.2 TF, the cpu is not at 3.5 GHz.



Cerny said all this on stage basically, just not in the most direct way. The only reason to mention smart shift is if this happens, just like it does on smart shift.

As for fluctuating wildly, that is my interpretation of this exchange:

The PS5 GPU would very rarely fluctuate more than 50mhz (from 2230mhz) as he sees it so that 10.3TF is pretty dead-on steady performance.

Like I typed elsewhere, on an informed hunch that my colleague John also alluded to, it does not actually work like that. Devs have to choose.
 

alstrike

Banned
Aug 27, 2018
2,151
Good argument dude. Report away. I simply have logical arguments against ps5 design choices.

These past 7 years must have been an absolute hell for guys like you. Timdogg and MisterXmedia sending their minions to do their dirty work, smh.

Having said that I'll go and put you on my VIP list, have a good day sir.
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
It would have been nice if Cerny had been clear about what the bottom is for those variable clocks in a worst case scenario. For the sake of transparency, and because not being clear about it doesn't do them any favors, I do hope that they will release this info.
 

beta

Member
Dec 31, 2019
176
No it's based on keeping the fan at a constant noise level. They fucked up with base PS4 and PS4 pro being so loud.

There solution to this is to keep the fan on Ps5 at a constant level and adjust the performance around this. they have come up with a convuluted way of keeping ps5 quiet which amounts to downclocking the GPU/CPU.

Imagine if your PS4 pro started downclocking itself instead of ramping up fans, and all of a sudden you were getting less frame rate. How is this acceptable design?

What they should have done was put more CU's at a lower frequency in a bigger box. That way you can have more power with less noise, a la Xbox series x.

Its actually based on a constant max power draw and not a constant noise level will change with the environment where was the power draw wont.
 

Deleted member 9327

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
394
Take a couple of minutes to read this. A very interesting and insightful post on both consoles and especially some great sounding things on how ssd's will really have an enormous impact: https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/fmhh7d/ps5_and_xbox_series_x_the_most_innovative_console/
Thanks for sharing. What a great read. Fully agree with the guy and that's why Cerny managed to get me more excited about PS5 now even though initially I wanted to get XSX because of its raw hardware power. As I said already in another post: The upcoming generation makes me more excited than I ever could imagine. MS and Sony building some awesome machines!