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ibyea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,164
The Doctor is a victim. Look back at that sequence where they were showing all the different child regenerations as Tecteun was doing her experiments. Do you think she was waiting for the Doctor to die naturally and regenerate? Of course not. If Shoboggans were that long lived they wouldn't need regenerations in the first place. The Doctor as a child was being killed over and over again.

I say again. Based on what we currently know the Doctor isn't a chosen one. She's victim of barbaric brutality which apparently continued during her time in this mysterious organisation.
That is what I took from it. The Doctor was not worshipped nor considered a savior. Instead her identity was meddled with, constantly destroyed and reconstructed for the benefit of that one scientist, who then built a civilization with that power. It's more material for what we have known all along: the time lords are assholes.
 

Wallace Wells

Member
May 24, 2019
4,843
Oh man I must have missed that.

Gallifrey was completely destroyed for nothing then?
I only noticed it with the subtitles because it's very faintly said
cuZZtfZ.jpg
 

ibyea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,164
I hope Ruth Doctor makes a further appearance, even if it is only in Big Finish audio because she is awsome.
 

plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,565
Cape Cod, MA
Also The Master definitely escaped with his CyberLords. He says "all of you through here, now" before that bomb explodes
The Master always escapes. At this point, I'd actually prefer they didn't say how. Hah!

That said, him saying that, doesn't mean the CyberLords made it out. I'm sure we'll see them again though. Too cool a costume to be a one off.
 
OP
OP
Paradox

Paradox

Member
Oct 28, 2017
683
Credit where credit's due, Chibnall has a masterful ability to make an episode with a show-changing lore reveal, Cybermen, the Master, Cyber-converted Time Lords and ruddy Morbius Doctors into something egregiously mundane. The 'big lore reveal' isn't offensive because of what it does to canon (mostly), it's offensive because it is wholly meaningless.

For weeks we've been promised that 'Everything you know is a lie' and 'Everything is about to change', but the problem is what that translates to is 'Everything is about to change (for you the audience)' rather than 'Everything is about to change (for the Doctor)'. Because evidently the Doctor couldn't care less. And, yes, it was never going to irrevocably change her character, but that then begs the question; what was the point? Why did we spend a season teasing this, and have an hour's worth of info dump if it is wholly meaningless? The best I can come up with is 'because it will get headlines and shock fans' and that is just the absolute worst way to write any show ever (looking at you GoT).

Even worse than that, in order to get to this point you had to literally incapacitate the Doctor and make her wholly ineffective and have the companions do barely anything of consequence so as not to detract from the main event. It literally feels like someone writing stuff they've had in their head since being a teenage fan, and just splurging it out on the page with no relation to anything else.
 

WhovianGamer

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,033
I'd have been fine with the origins of the time lords being what this episode says, but I'd have preferred that The Doctor wasn't the beginning of everything.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,685
After giving it some thought, I'm in different about the whole storyline now.
I've reached the point with this era of Who where whatever changes are made to the lore, the character of The Doctor etc are just that, changes.
Until a new show-runner comes in I'm just gonna watch it and try not to hope for anything special and see this era through.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
Credit where credit's due, Chibnall has a masterful ability to make an episode with a show-changing lore reveal, Cybermen, the Master, Cyber-converted Time Lords and ruddy Morbius Doctors into something egregiously mundane. The 'big lore reveal' isn't offensive because of what it does to canon (mostly), it's offensive because it is wholly meaningless.

For weeks we've been promised that 'Everything you know is a lie' and 'Everything is about to change', but the problem is what that translates to is 'Everything is about to change (for you the audience)' rather than 'Everything is about to change (for the Doctor)'. Because evidently the Doctor couldn't care less. And, yes, it was never going to irrevocably change her character, but that then begs the question; what was the point? Why did we spend a season teasing this, and have an hour's worth of info dump if it is wholly meaningless? The best I can come up with is 'because it will get headlines and shock fans' and that is just the absolute worst way to write any show ever (looking at you GoT).

Even worse than that, in order to get to this point you had to literally incapacitate the Doctor and make her wholly ineffective and have the companions do barely anything of consequence so as not to detract from the main event. It literally feels like someone writing stuff they've had in their head since being a teenage fan, and just splurging it out on the page with no relation to anything else.

Thanks for the perspective. I'd like to add to how meaningless the review is by... simply reminding myself of how... All the Time Lords are gone. Any drama that COULD come of this is nonexistent because the Doctor can't hold anyone responsible for this. Thankfully this makes it also easy to ignore and retcon for the next showrunner.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,629
There's enough room for some time lords to have survived simply by not on Gallifrey for the Mater's attack and the detonation of the death particle. Rassilon in particular is easy to bring back that way due to his being kicked out.
 

Metallix87

User Requested Self-Ban
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
10,533
There's enough room for some time lords to have survived simply by not on Gallifrey for the Mater's attack and the detonation of the death particle. Rassilon in particular is easy to bring back that way due to his being kicked out.
I think Rassilon, The Rani, and Susan are all viable options to bring back, as they're all unlikely to have been anywhere near Gallifrey.
 

Orbis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,340
UK
Credit where credit's due, Chibnall has a masterful ability to make an episode with a show-changing lore reveal, Cybermen, the Master, Cyber-converted Time Lords and ruddy Morbius Doctors into something egregiously mundane. The 'big lore reveal' isn't offensive because of what it does to canon (mostly), it's offensive because it is wholly meaningless.

For weeks we've been promised that 'Everything you know is a lie' and 'Everything is about to change', but the problem is what that translates to is 'Everything is about to change (for you the audience)' rather than 'Everything is about to change (for the Doctor)'. Because evidently the Doctor couldn't care less. And, yes, it was never going to irrevocably change her character, but that then begs the question; what was the point? Why did we spend a season teasing this, and have an hour's worth of info dump if it is wholly meaningless? The best I can come up with is 'because it will get headlines and shock fans' and that is just the absolute worst way to write any show ever (looking at you GoT).

Even worse than that, in order to get to this point you had to literally incapacitate the Doctor and make her wholly ineffective and have the companions do barely anything of consequence so as not to detract from the main event. It literally feels like someone writing stuff they've had in their head since being a teenage fan, and just splurging it out on the page with no relation to anything else.
This is basically how I feel. Honestly I don't care about the lore changes, Doctor Who is full of it and it can work out well or badly. I found it pretty inoffensive overall. But the biggest sin is doing absolutely nothing worthwhile with it. Everything will change and yet nothing has really changed? The execution of the reveal, with the Doctor seeing it all in the matrix and the Master explaining, the use of those false memories of Ireland to cover up the real ones, it was actually starting off fine, but in the end it all just felt a bit anticlimactic.

The Doctor nearly wiping out Gallifrey, but then letting someone else wipe out Gallifrey can only work if they actually address that later on, if the Doctor struggles with the burden of that. I feel given how the writing has been for the past 2 seasons we'll never hear of it again.

I just feel let down by the whole series, I nearly fell off it entirely but forced myself to hold on once Ruth appeared.

Final points, Sacha Dhawan is a great Master and Jo Martin is a better Doctor than Jodie.
 

Hamchan

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,966
Maybe this whole experience will teach 13 to not be so cavalier about wiping people's memories.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,417
The English Wilderness
Dunno why people get worked up over [insert character/monster] getting "killed for good" - the Daleks were destroyed at the end of the second ever serial, and look how that panned out!
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,617
Wait so the Master had only killed the time lords in the capitol on Gallifrey so that must mean the Doctor and the old man were directly responsible for the deaths of all those other innocent people on Gallifrey?
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,631
Wait so the Master had only killed the time lords in the capitol on Gallifrey so that must mean the Doctor and the old man were directly responsible for the deaths of all those other innocent people on Gallifrey?

The rest of Gallifrey wasn't looking so good so I can't imagine anyone else was around.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,617
Yeah. What was up with the hybrid stuff anyway? No real pay off.
We didn't get a 100% definitive answer but in Series 9 it seems pretty clear that the Doctor and Clara together were the hybrid because they were so dangerous together. It's why the TARDIS was hostile towards Clara in Series 7.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,374
This is basically how I feel. Honestly I don't care about the lore changes, Doctor Who is full of it and it can work out well or badly. I found it pretty inoffensive overall. But the biggest sin is doing absolutely nothing worthwhile with it. Everything will change and yet nothing has really changed? The execution of the reveal, with the Doctor seeing it all in the matrix and the Master explaining, the use of those false memories of Ireland to cover up the real ones, it was actually starting off fine, but in the end it all just felt a bit anticlimactic.

The Doctor nearly wiping out Gallifrey, but then letting someone else wipe out Gallifrey can only work if they actually address that later on, if the Doctor struggles with the burden of that. I feel given how the writing has been for the past 2 seasons we'll never hear of it again.

I just feel let down by the whole series, I nearly fell off it entirely but forced myself to hold on once Ruth appeared.

Final points, Sacha Dhawan is a great Master and Jo Martin is a better Doctor than Jodie.

How many times can The Doctor feel the burden of wiping out Gallifrey though? This is what, the second or third time within the relaunch? If they were to go that route and try to explore that anyway.

Although I guess it was a fake out wipe out last time so maybe that doesn't count. I've honestly lost track of most of the lore at this point because it's turned into a cluster fuck.
 

JediTimeBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,810
60th Anniversary: the 8th,10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, and a cardboard cutout of the 9th Doctor, will all go back to the moment before that guy detonated the moment/reality bomb/cell of death, and something something "No More", and stop the Master & the CyberLord's (first record from reaching the top 10).
 
May 26, 2018
24,026
60th Anniversary: the 8th,10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, and a cardboard cutout of the 9th Doctor, will all go back to the moment before that guy detonated the moment/reality bomb/cell of death, and something something "No More", and stop the Master & the CyberLord's (first record from reaching the top 10).

man

the show ain't got the energy for that anymore...
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,629
I don't get how the Master could have destroyed them by himself. They should have explained that.

Could be any number of ways. Maybe the Doctor just left the moment lying in the barn and he just stumbled across that, or some other weapon left over from the time war.

I don't think it's something that really needs explaining, it doesn't seem to implausible that the Master could have done something that that to me, he's plenty resourceful.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,617
When it's every single time lord on Gallifrey, the Master killing them all is highly implausible to me.
 

Spectromixer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
16,660
USA
So if next series is Jodie's last since the last three Doctors did 3 as well, we would be looking at a new Doctor in the year of the 60th anniversary
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,849
Credit where credit's due, Chibnall has a masterful ability to make an episode with a show-changing lore reveal, Cybermen, the Master, Cyber-converted Time Lords and ruddy Morbius Doctors into something egregiously mundane. The 'big lore reveal' isn't offensive because of what it does to canon (mostly), it's offensive because it is wholly meaningless.

For weeks we've been promised that 'Everything you know is a lie' and 'Everything is about to change', but the problem is what that translates to is 'Everything is about to change (for you the audience)' rather than 'Everything is about to change (for the Doctor)'. Because evidently the Doctor couldn't care less. And, yes, it was never going to irrevocably change her character, but that then begs the question; what was the point? Why did we spend a season teasing this, and have an hour's worth of info dump if it is wholly meaningless? The best I can come up with is 'because it will get headlines and shock fans' and that is just the absolute worst way to write any show ever (looking at you GoT).

Even worse than that, in order to get to this point you had to literally incapacitate the Doctor and make her wholly ineffective and have the companions do barely anything of consequence so as not to detract from the main event. It literally feels like someone writing stuff they've had in their head since being a teenage fan, and just splurging it out on the page with no relation to anything else.

Chibnall is really turning out to be the JJ Abrams of Doctor Who.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,849
That's way too insulting to JJ Abrams

You can never be too insulting to JJ Abrams. It's all the same crap. Big "revelations" that are targeted directly at the audience rather than the characters that aren't supported or developed in narrative for the same of marketing.

Who cares if you tell a good story? Those Twitter video views and Buzzfeed UK articles - that's where the real money lives!
 

milamber182

Member
Dec 15, 2017
7,737
Australia
I don't recall such an extreme division of opinions about Name of the Doctor, which was equally fanwankish and far from perfect in its execution. Maybe that was because Matt and Jenna were more popular than the current TARDIS crew and it ended with the John Hurt reveal... or maybe some fans have short memories.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,617
You can never be too insulting to JJ Abrams. It's all the same crap. Big "revelations" that are targeted directly at the audience rather than the characters that aren't supported or developed in narrative for the same of marketing.

Who cares if you tell a good story? Those Twitter video views and Buzzfeed UK articles - that's where the real money lives!
Unlike Chibnall JJ launched two critically and commercially incredibly successful reboots that followed really poor movies, and they were both entertaining and did character really well.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,849
I don't recall such an extreme division of opinions about Name of the Doctor, which was equally fanwankish and far from perfect in its execution. Maybe that was because Matt and Jenna were more popular than the current TARDIS crew and it ended with the John Hurt reveal... or maybe some fans have short memories.

The Name of the Doctor wasn't as divisive because "there's a secret Doctor we haven't talked about up until now and it's JOHN HURT, look forward to him in the 50th!" isn't nearly as lore-destructive as "actually the Doctor is technically the first Time Lord and is the most special entity in the entire universe, we probably won't do anything more with it though".

It was setup, rather than a payoff.