Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
Yah and it's my prerogative to complain about something I don't like either.

First of all I wouldn't have even bought an X1 if they stayed the course.

What are you even trying to prove here?

If I'm trying to "prove" anything, it's simply that the whole thing is mostly just preference. Your preference would apparently be to go a month without playing your console, rather than simply tether it to your phone for 20secs to gain access. That's fine, and so is complaining about that.

I think the constant requirement of physical media in this day and age (where it's not actually required to run the software from) is unnecessary, and my preference is to simply not buy any as a result, despite the negative implications that come along with that. Obviously that leaves me similarly free to state my opinion on it when the topic comes up. Just as you are...
 

TheUnseenTheUnheard

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 25, 2018
9,647
We had a short period without multiplayer being tacked on to every single player game but I think that's going to start again.
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
If I'm trying to "prove" anything, it's simply that the whole thing is mostly just preference. Your preference would apparently be to go a month without playing your console, rather than simply tether it to your phone for 20secs to gain access. That's fine, and so is complaining about that.

I think the constant requirement of physical media in this day and age (where it's not actually required to run the software from) is unnecessary, and my preference is to simply not buy any as a result, despite the negative implications that come along with that. Obviously that leaves me similarly free to state my opinion on it when the topic comes up. Just as you are...

Yah let's say I bought the console on the advertisement based on that I wouldn't have to connect it to use it.

Then they change the policy to requiring it be connected. Well the thing would just be a brick under my tv because fuck messing around with it to get it to run a game when it should just run it. I'll just play all my games on the other consoles I have since I'm not pressured to do shit with them to pop a game in and play.

Besides I get charged for tethering. Don't need to add unnecessary costs when I don't need to.

I don't need the Xbox in my life, I would have happily gone without one the whole gen if they were the outlier and stayed the course.

If all parties do it next gen then at that time I will re-evaluate my stance and see what is important to me.

Until then I can complain about it all I want to because I paid for a product based on the way it was advertised.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
We had a short period without multiplayer being tacked on to every single player game but I think that's going to start again.

If anything, the industry learned to do this from the opposite direction. You create an inherently multiplayer game, but just allow it to be played solo. Destiny, The Division, Anthem, etc. You can play them in a manner that resembles a standard single-player campaign, but it's really the multiplayer campaign lacking other players, rather than something like Halo where it was a solo game, that you could bring more people into.

Yah let's say Ibought the console on the advertisement based on that I wouldn't have to connect it to use it.

Then they change the policy to requiring it be connected. Well the thing would just be a brick under my tv because fuck messing around with it to get it to run a game when it should just run it. I'll just play all my games on the other consoles I have since I'm not pressured to do shit with them to pop a game in and play.

Besides I get charged for tethering. Don't need to add unnecessary costs when I don't need to.

If a policy like that gets changed in any that not purely additive after purchase, then yes... that's actually anti-consumer, because it removes the consumer's ability to simply decide it doesn't fit their requirements and purchase a different product that does instead.

I'd consider it exactly the same way if I'd bought an Xbox One that was exactly as previously described, only for them to revert it to the previous Xbox 360-based licensing model a year later.
 
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Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
In this thread: "Physical discs are digital rights management."

No. Physical discs are games that you own. They're not "digital rights" they're property. You can own them, trade them, resell them and lend them. If someone breaks into your house and takes your collection, your insurance will cover it. If you lose, break or misplace the disc, you no longer can play the game. That's how it works.

People that buy physical discs or cartridges for their consoles understand all of this. They're still the majority.
Console gamers don't read EULAs. Most PC gamers don't either, but the knowledge of what is in these EULAs is fairly well known among PC gamers wheras console gamers don't seem anywhere near as aware. EULAs might not be bulletproof, but they are legally binding a lot of the time. And this is what EULAs say:

Ubisoft EULA:

1.1 UBISOFT (or its licensors) grants You a non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-sublicensed, non-commercial and personal license to install and/or use the Product (in whole or in part) and any Product (the "License"), for such time until either You or UBISOFT terminates this EULA. You must in no event use, nor allow others to use,the Product or this License for commercial purposes without obtaining a license to do so from UBISOFT. Updates, upgrades, patches and modifications may be necessary in order to be able to continue to use the Product on certain hardware. THIS PRODUCT IS LICENSED TO YOU, NOT SOLD.

https://legal.ubi.com/eula/en-US

And and of course, "This License confers no title or ownership in the Product and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in the Product."

Sony's EULA:

The Software is licensed to you, not sold. After the authorized release date, Licensor grants to you a limited, non-exclusive license to use the Software for personal use on your PlayStation® system. For PlayStation 4 Software only, Licensor also grants to you a limited, non-exclusive license to use the share button to replicate or stream the Software's audio and video output to third-party services supported by the PlayStation®4 system where the Software permits use of the Share button and where Licensor has the rights to permit you to record, edit and share the Software's content. This limited, non-exclusive license includes recording portions of the Software's content to the PlayStation 4 system and to use that system's tools to edit those recordings. Any rights in the Software not explicitly granted to you in this license are reserved by Licensor, including rights to all intellectual property contained in the Software. This license does not include the right to, and as a condition of this Agreement, you agree not to (a) rent, lease or sublicense the Software or make it available on a network to other users; (b) modify, adapt, translate, reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the Software; (c) create derivative works from the Software; (d) create or make available unauthorized mods; or (e) copy, publicly perform or broadcast the Software in an unauthorized manner.

https://www.playstation.com/en-us/legal/softwarelicense/

You don't own these games. Sony or Ubisoft or whomever owns the license can block these games from running on a whim, and there's nothing you can do about it. The games are licensed to you. At most, it's a "possession is nine tenths of the law" affair where physically holding the disc makes you the party to whom the contents of the disc are licensed. But you do not own the game content on the disc. It's been this way for a long, long time. You'll notice that both Sony and Ubisoft's EULA allow them to revoke the EULA at any time.
 

Gxgear

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,160
Vancouver
Holy shit, that's a lot of koolaid in 7 minutes.

Consoles are more or less always connected currently without it being enforced. Those handful of multiplayer-only games exists, right now, despite Microsoft's failed vision. If the percentage of the population connected to the web is stagnant after half a decade, then the decision to force always online back then would be disastrous. Cross-play isn't even a valid argument because, again, it exists in a world without always connect, and undoubtedly a feature Microsoft would happily turn their backs from if they were leading. Hell, they even got DRM wrong, because the expectation moving forward is the same content accessible through all devices.
 

soul creator

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,153
I tend to notice some people used to get super angry at their theoretical purchase of an Xbox One with the original policies, as if when this was all announced, they somehow had already bought the system and were conned into an evil DRM scheme from MS after they spent their money. It's like people can't just say something is a bad product for them, and feel the need to use moral language to justify their disinterest to make it seem more grandiose than it actually is (this doesn't just apply to the Xbox One discussion, this is just a general gaming board observation)

"This product doesn't work for me and how I play games, so it sucks and I won't buy it." - Totally makes sense! No arguments from me on that. The original Xbox One policies were bad for a lot of people who prefer the status quo with physical discs. Those people should rightly be opposed to it, since it obviously doesn't fit their needs.

"This product is anti-consumer, only corporate fanboys would ever prefer this, this product that isn't for sale yet and that I don't have to buy actually takes away my rights and locks me in!" - uh, what?
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
You don't own these games. Sony or Ubisoft or whomever owns the license can block these games from running on a whim, and there's nothing you can do about it. The games are licensed to you. At most, it's a "possession is nine tenths of the law" affair where physically holding the disc makes you the party to whom the contents of the disc are licensed. But you do not own the game content on the disc. It's been this way for a long, long time. You'll notice that both Sony and Ubisoft's EULA allow them to revoke the EULA at any time.

Incorrect. I do own my games. They're physical objects that I own. Would you like to buy one of mine? I can sell it to you, I assure you. it's perfectly legal. I own numerous cartridges, CD-ROMs, DVDs and now Blu-rays that I can pop in a console at any time and enjoy.

I'm sorry that you feel that you don't own your own possessions, that's gotta be a little depressing.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
Incorrect. I do own my games. They're physical objects that I own. Would you like to buy one of mine? I can sell it to you, I assure you. it's perfectly legal.

I'm sorry that you feel that you don't own your own possessions, that's gotta be a little depressing.

You own the disc yes. You'd still own the disc for a pre-180 Xbox One game, or a current Steamworks game. You could still sell that disc to someone. The difference would be that most people wouldn't want to buy the physical disc itself, but the rights to access the digital content on that. You'd be correct in making the argument that the current makes those rights far easier to transfer (and damn near impossible to actually revoke in practice), you'd be (and are) wrong to argue that the disc isn't only retaining its value because it IS the DRM required to let you play the content, where it would be otherwise rendered obsolete after the initial install.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
Incorrect. I do own my games. They're physical objects that I own. Would you like to buy one of mine? I can sell it to you, I assure you. it's perfectly legal.

I'm sorry that you feel that you don't own your own possessions, that's gotta be a little depressing.
They are licensed to you and that license can be revoked at any time by the company that granted you that license. Nintendo can individually ID Switch game carts. Revoking the ability for that cart to run is trivial for them. The problem with DVDs and Blu Rays, obviously, is the lack of individual IDs. But that doesn't mean they can't say, for instance, "The license to play this particular game has been revoked, so the game will no longer run on your Playstation 4." And that would be perfectly legal because you agreed to the EULA. You agree that you do not OWN these products, but that they are licensed to you, and that you understand that right can be revoked at any time.

It's unpleasant, but it's the truth.
 

soul creator

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,153
Incorrect. I do own my games. They're physical objects that I own. Would you like to buy one of mine? I can sell it to you, I assure you. it's perfectly legal. I own numerous cartridges, CD-ROMs, DVDs and now Blu-rays that I can pop in a console at any time and enjoy.

I'm sorry that you feel that you don't own your own possessions, that's gotta be a little depressing.

You could sell your physical discs under the original Xbox One plans too because you would own those. I can also sell my physical Half-Life 2 Steamworks retail disc at any time. Whether someone gets a functional game out of that disc is a different story though. It's almost as if "physical disc" and "game software" aren't actually the same thing and that there are numerous interesting legal discussions to be had and licensing models to discuss as far as how software ownership works :P
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
Sorry guys, no amount of argument will convince me that I don't own my collection of physical games. I'm not even sure why you're trying.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
You could sell your physical discs under the original Xbox One plans too because you would own those. I can also sell my physical Half-Life 2 Steamworks retail disc at any time. Whether someone gets a functional game out of that disc is a different story though. It's almost as if "physical disc" and "game software" aren't actually the same thing and that there are numerous interesting legal discussions to be had and licensing models to discuss as far as how software ownership works :P
Valve, interestingly exploit a loophole where they "allow" game licenses to be transferred between parties, but the law doesn't require them to facilitate that. So it's like Valve saying, "I'm not keeping people locked in my basement! I'm merely not providing the key necessary to exit the basement, which is totes not the same!"
 

BBboy20

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,668
Find someone else who said the same thing back then because fuck 2013 Microsoft.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
Sorry guys, no amount of argument will convince me that I don't own my collection of physical games. I'm not even sure why you're trying.

That's fine. But it's still factual even if convincing you of that is impossible.

I imagine it's safe to assume you don't have a logical response to what differentiates your PlayStation 4 game from a music CD in regards to how you can use it, if not for DRM, right?
 

New Fang

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,542
"Sorry guys, no amounts of logic, facts, or the literal EULAs I agreed to will convince me." Why are people trying? If put it like that, I'm not sure.

That's fine. But it's still factual even if convincing you of that is impossible.

I imagine it's safe to assume you don't have a logical response to what differentiates your PlayStation 4 game from a music CD in regards to how you can use it, if not for DRM, right?
As soon as Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo revoke someone's ownership of a physical game, make sure to let us know. Until then I'll be over here laughing at this conversation.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
As soon as Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo revoke someone's ownership of a physical game, make sure to let us know. Until then I'll be over here laughing at this conversation.

Well, I guess Xbox 360 digital content has no DRM then, considering MS themselves don't have a functional process in place to revoke a digital license once the console has one. That's why Xbox 360 GwG titles are yours to keep even when your subscriptions lapses.. not because they're feeling generous, but because a 360 will hold its valid license to digital content either online or offline forever. This is true even if you pull a new license for that content on a different console. Fortunately for MS, this wasn't common knowledge, and no longer applies for the Xbox One.

How easy or difficult revoking the right is, is besides the point. The disc is literally the key that proves you have the right to access the content. That's what all DRM in every form is doing.
 

Temp_User

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,781
No, I challenged you to look at my personal use case which I outlined in detail, and tell me why I should prefer the CURRENT licensing system instead. You failed entirely at this, and instead had to simply fallback on my use case being the minority (much like the military use case would also be).

You haven't at all proven that any of the currently existing are more "lenient and consumer friendly". You've detailed restrictions that don't apply to them, that would have applied to the Xbox One pre-180, but you deliberately attempt to ignore the various ways that they are less lenient than what was proposed also. If the current models allowed for everything the was described AND had no check-in, then there would be no argument to be had, and you'd be right. But that's not the case, and the current models just place different restrictions on digital media. Whether or not those restrictions are more palatable to you, does not make them objectively more lenient.

Deny, deny, deny . . . . people know how to read and backtrack forum posts.

You're personal use case was a pathetic justification to implement OG Xbox One's always online, 24-hr checkin licensing policies in lieu of what we currently have in Xbone and PS4 because those particular anti-consumer policies negatively affect the basic functionalities of the console(ie. play the games they bought and owned!) for a lot more people especially influential - and profitable -groups of gamers like the military. If Microsoft actually cared about gamer's convenience when designing OG Xbox One, they should've copied Steam's default licensing policies with its indefinite OFFLINE mode and family sharing options and improve from that. We might even get to have that luxury item - a 'lenient' digital game sharing - that edge-cases like you crave.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
Deny, deny, deny . . . . people know how to read and backtrack forum posts.

You're personal use case was a pathetic justification to implement OG Xbox One's always online, 24-hr checkin licensing policies in lieu of what we currently have in Xbone and PS4 because those particular anti-consumer policies negatively affect the basic functionalities of the console for a lot more people especially influential - and profitable -groups of gamers like the military. If Microsoft actually cared about gamer's convenience when designing OG Xbox One, they should've copied Steam's default licensing policies with its indefinite OFFLINE mode and family sharing options and improve from that. We might even get to have that luxury item - a 'lenient' digital game sharing - that edge-cases like you crave.

Lol... If you don't have anything merit to add, then we're done. I explained my situation to you and why I personally would prefer it. I don't care if you don't agree with that... I don't buy things based on what you or literally anyone else thinks it should do for me.

My position has been consistent. It's yours that flopped from "shill, you're just defending a corporation" to "your case is a minority" to "free weekends are DRM free", etc. I have Steam and use it. It's worse for me than even the current console digital implementations. No amount of "I love Steam" posts are going to make it any more useful to me. Deal with that and move on if it bothers you.
 

Temp_User

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,781
Lol... If you don't have anything merit to add, then we're done. I explained my situation to you and why I personally would prefer it. I don't care if you don't agree with that... I don't buy things based on what you or literally anyone else thinks it should do for me.

My position has been consistent. It's yours that flopped from "shill, you're just defending a corporation" to "your case is a minority" to "free weekends are DRM free", etc. I have Steam and use it. It's worse for me than even the current console digital implementations. No amount of "I love Steam" posts are going to make it any more useful to me. Deal with that and move on if it bothers you.

You didn't even knew the difference between Steam's default DRM/licensing restrictions and the game-specific ones like Denuvo. You spent waaay to many paragraphs on that one.

My position has always been, there is no defending or justification for OG Xbox One's always online, 24-hr checkin licensing policies. Those anti-consumer policies suck-ass for a lot of people. In case you dont know, people who do because of some anecdotal use-case on how they want a 'lenient' digital game sharing - even though its possible to implement licensing w/o the always online, 24 checkins - does give an impression of being a paid shill or just plain ignorant, unsympathetic towards their fellow gamers.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
You didn't even knew the difference between Steam's default DRM/licensing restrictions and the game-specific ones like Denuvo. You spent waaay to many paragraphs on that one.

My position has always been, there is no defending or justification for OG Xbox One's always online, 24-hr checkin licensing policies. Those policies suck-ass for a lot of people. In case you dont know, people who do because of some anecdotal use-case on how they want a 'lenient' digital game sharing - even though its possible to implement licensing w/o the always online, 24 checkins - does give an impression of being a paid shill or just plain ignorant, unsympathetic towards their fellow gamers.

I know exactly how Steam's default DRM works, and explained why that results in a product you cannot sell at all ever, and how it's more limited in regards to concurrent online usage. You're just awful at comprehending what you read.

Your position is clear. I'm not unsympathetic to other fellow gamers.. I've stated that I understand such a system would make it unsuitable for certain use-cases, but would be better for my use-case so I'd prefer it. I don't go on the offensive claiming that someone preferring something else requires them to be a paid shill, or that their preference is objectively shit... that's being unsympathetic to someone, and is what's differentiated my stance from yours. I consider that not everything will/should be as I desire it to be (but would like at least one system to offer it), whilst you demand everything be as you prefer and want to paint other people preferences are "company shilling". There's a reason you copped a warning for that, and I haven't for any post here. It's because I've argued with people respectfully, even when they disagree.
 

Temp_User

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,781
I know exactly how Steam's default DRM works, and explained why that results in a product you cannot sell at all ever, and how it's more limited in regards to concurrent online usage. You're just awful at comprehending what you read.

Your position is clear. I'm not unsympathetic to other fellow gamers.. I've stated that I understand such a system would make it unsuitable for certain use-cases, but would be better for my use-case so I'd prefer it. I don't go on the offensive claiming that someone preferring something else requires them to be a paid shill, or that their preference is objectively shit... that's being unsympathetic to someone, and is what's differentiated my stance from yours. I consider that not everything will/should be as I desire it to be (but would like at least one system to offer it), whilst you demand everything be as you prefer and want to paint other people preferences are "company shilling". There's a reason you copped a warning for that, and I haven't for any post here. It's because I've argued with people respectfully, even when they disagree.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck . . . .

Its a good thing Microsoft is not as un-sympathetic as you. Like you couldn't be any clearer trying to justify OG Xbox One's shitty and anti-consumer always online, 24 hr. checkin policy.

Are there edge-cases (such as military personnel) that the console would be effectively useless for? Yup, definitely... and I'd completely understand them writing it off entirely for those reasons. This wouldn't be the first entertainment device that would apply to however, and imo neither should it be. The situations where you'd be unable to use an Xbox One with online check would be effectively identical to the situations where you'd be unable to send a tweet. That quite honestly doesn't apply to many people at all. If we were talking replacing native play with game streaming ala PS Now, then it'd be a different matter entirely.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck . . . .

Its a good thing Microsoft is not as un-sympathetic as you. Like you couldn't be any clearer trying to justify OG Xbox One's shitty and anti-consumer always online, 24 hr. checkin policy.

That's not "unsympathetic", that's just realistic. Few people wouldn't have the connection required. I sympathize with those that it would legitimately affect, but just as I wouldn't prefer Netflix to cease existing in favor of Blockbuster because it wouldn't be available in the same conditions, I don't prefer the current physical/digital market to what was suggested.

And a "paid shill" would toe the current company line, which would be the current status quo, rather than than state a preference for something the company walked back in order to make more money.

But we're done here.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,816
Nope, I was 8 weeks without Internet, because I've moved and had trouble with two internet providers. I couldn't have played a single game.
And that was just me, I'm sure there are plenty people, that don't have an internet connection all of the time.
 

Lunchbox

ƃuoɹʍ ʇᴉ ƃuᴉop ǝɹ,noʎ 'ʇɥƃᴉɹ sᴉɥʇ pɐǝɹ noʎ ɟI
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,548
Rip City
If they pushed this again I wouldn't buy the Xbox and I was finally starting to move slightly after 2013 it took 5 years for me to see Xbox in any sort of positive light and that was backwards compatibility.
 

Temp_User

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,781
That's not "unsympathetic", that's just realistic. Few people wouldn't have the connection required. I sympathize with those that it would legitimately affect, but just as I wouldn't prefer Netflix to cease existing in favor of Blockbuster because it wouldn't be available in the same conditions, I don't prefer the current physical/digital market to what was suggested.

And a "paid shill" would toe the current company line, which would be the current status quo, rather than than state a preference for something the company walked back in order to make more money.

But we're done here.

No doubt, Don Mattrick tried to justify his 'we have a console for that. Its called the Xbox360' comment towards the military as realistic as well. Most would just call him tone deaf and unsympathetic though. Your Blockbuster analogy is also wrong. Blockbuster would be something like Gamestop in video game terms.

The correct analogy would be: People who wants to watch movies can do so via Netflix or Blu-ray disks. What Microsoft tried to implement with the OG Xbox One always online, 24hr. checkin policy is to severely limit, if not outright kill the option to watch movies in Blu-ray disks. That just wont fly with people who have inconsistent access to the internet or have internet use-security protocols to follow like military personnel. You and Microsoft are perfectly fine in cutting out a basic functionality option from your consumers. This is not what progress looks like.
 
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Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
No doubt, Don Mattrick tried to justify his 'we have a console for that. Its called the Xbox360' comment towards the military as realistic as well. Most would just call him tone deaf and unsympathetic though. Your Blockbuster analogy is also wrong. Blockbuster would be something like Gamestop in video game terms.

The correct analogy would be: People who wants to watch movies can do so via Netflix or Blu-ray disks. What Microsoft tried to implement with the OG Xbox One always online, 24hr. checkin policy is to severely limit, if not outright kill the option to watch movies in Blu-ray disks. That just wont fly with people who have inconsistent access to the internet or have internet use-security protocols to follow like military personnel. You are cutting out a basic functionality option from your consumers. This is not what progress looks like.

No, because Blockbuster would be the physical equivalent of Netflix, not GameStop. GameStop can't doesn't provide a similar service that Netflix does, but Blockbuster did.

And people who want to play games would be able to do so regardless, because just how one ecosystem operated by a company (Netflix) doesn't serve them, another operated by a completely separate company (Redbox) does. The gaming equivalent for this would have been PlayStation. The world wouldn't have been deprived of the ability to play any game at all, just as Steam hasn't stopped the ability of lending a disc across all of gaming. Mattrick's response was stupid, not because an alternative to an unsuitable product doesn't make sense... it was stupid because it was a different company's offering that was the actual alternative product.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,981
Do we really need to be so pedantic that we are arguing the technicalities of owndership of physical media? Obviously publishers reserve the right to limit the rights of owners, and that's most succinctly describes by saying they are liscensing consumers the rights to use their product. But what does that actually mean, and where is the line between acceptable and anti-consumer?

To me, preventing a person who buys a game or CD or blu-ray from freely reselling the game is clearly anti-consumer. This isn't about whether they have the right, but IF it's right. Clearly that is not the same as a publisher restricting the ability to infinitely copy and distribute the product. Games cost millions, if not tens of millions of dollars to make and is a very cost prohibitive medium, so it's understandable the publishers would implement methods to prevent the copy of their products. With something like blu-rays and CD, it's just not a comparable scenario. And you know what, it's still illegal - as far as I know - to copy a CD or blu-ray and certainly it's still illegal to redistribute a copy.

That's the practical idea of ownership. You buy a product, and can freely sell that product on the open market. So I'm sorry, but I own my physical copies of games, and to argue otherwise is to purposefully try to obfuscate the debate with intellectually vapid rhetoric.

Digital versus physical is another debate. And as our medium, and other mediums, continue to trend towards digital over physical then we need to re-evaluate the concepts of digital ownership, but that's not what we are talking about here.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
Do we really need to be so pedantic that we are arguing the technicalities of owndership of physical media? Obviously publishers reserve the right to limit the rights of owners, and that's most succinctly describes by saying they are liscensing consumers the rights to use their product. But what does that actually mean, and where is the line between acceptable and anti-consumer?

To me, preventing a person who buys a game or CD or blu-ray from freely reselling the game is clearly anti-consumer. This isn't about whether they have the right, but IF it's right. Clearly that is not the same as a publisher restricting the ability to infinitely copy and distribute the product. Games cost millions, if not tens of millions of dollars to make and is a very cost prohibitive medium, so it's understandable the publishers would implement methods to prevent the copy of their products. With something like blu-rays and CD, it's just not a comparable scenario. And you know what, it's still illegal - as far as I know - to copy a CD or blu-ray and certainly it's still illegal to redistribute a copy.

That's the practical idea of ownership. You buy a product, and can freely sell that product on the open market. So I'm sorry, but I own my physical copies of games, and to argue otherwise is to purposefully try to obfuscate the debate with intellectually vapid rhetoric.

Digital versus physical is another debate. And as our medium, and other mediums, continue to trend towards digital over physical then we need to re-evaluate the concepts of digital ownership, but that's not what we are talking about here.

We do need to be pedantic if you're trying to draw a hard line between "acceptable" and "anti-consumer" for everyone else, yes.

And the re-evaluation of digital ownership is the entire topic here. What you just outlined as "clearly anti-consumer" is the current digital reality, to a greater extent then what you're arguing against. The only real difference is that you find it more acceptable to apply to digital owners.

Your rights to usage of content, versus the physical possession of it's delivery medium isn't a meaningless distinction to make. Even when not considering resales the rights you have over the content stored on physical media are not exhaustive. you for example need to obtain a separate non-theatrical theatre license to play a film in front of a large audience. The simple fact that you own the physical disc and the player that will run it doesn't automatically give you the rights to use it as you like. The two concepts are similar (and before full installs were effective bound to one another), but they aren't the same thing.
 

Temp_User

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,781
No, because Blockbuster would be the physical equivalent of Netflix, not GameStop. GameStop can't doesn't provide a similar service that Netflix does, but Blockbuster did.

And people who want to play games would be able to do so regardless, because just how one ecosystem operated by a company (Netflix) doesn't serve them, another operated by a completely separate company (Redbox) does. The gaming equivalent for this would have been PlayStation. The world wouldn't have been deprived of the ability to play any game at all, just as Steam hasn't stopped the ability of lending a disc across all of gaming. Mattrick's response was stupid, not because an alternative to an unsuitable product doesn't make sense... it was stupid because it was a different company's offering that was the actual alternative product.

Just insert any other company that you want for the Blockbuster analogy. It ain't even the meat of the argument.

My actual analogy is that playing digital games vs disk games in OG Xbox One is similar to watching movies in Netflix or watching movies in Blu-ray disks in any modern console. That always online, 24 checkin makes it difficult for people who have inconsistent access to the internet or have internet use-security protocols to play the digital games you've bought. Fortunately, most consoles play their offline disk-based games just fine.

Its ass-backward that a videogame console like the OG Xbox Online allows you to watch Blue-ray movies OFFLINE indefinitely but prevents you from playing Xbox One disk games beyond 24 hours offline. Is this what you call progress? Is this what you call pro-consumer? Why do you support this?
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
Just insert any other company that you want for the Blockbuster analogy. It ain't even the meat of the argument.

My actual analogy is that playing digital games vs disk games in OG Xbox One is similar to watching movies in Netflix or watching movies in Blu-ray disks in any modern console. That always online, 24 checkin makes it difficult for people who have inconsistent access to the internet or have internet use-security protocols to play the games you've bought.

Its ass-backward that a videogame console like the OG Xbox Online allows you to watch Blue-ray movies OFFLINE indefinitely but prevents you from playing Xbox One disk games beyond 24 hours offline. Is this what you call progress? Is this what you call pro-consumer? Why do you support this?

I consider it progress and I would support it, because it would be better for me, the same way Netflix is better for me than DVDs or BluRay. I don't consider it PRO CONSUMER however, because there's very few things I would consider as such from corporations. Adding value with no concession is something I would consider pro-consumer, and I wouldn't apply that to any game distribution model outside something like GoG being entirely DRM free, whilst still giving the benefits of other digital storefronts.

The whole point was that anyone else remains free to provide the alternative, just as <insert-company-here> is free to provide an alternative to anyone that can't make use of Netflix due to their circumstances. I'm not making the argument that Steam should do the same also, and every console should be mandated to not require a physical disc. Your Netflix vs BluRay comparison only serves to highlight how one console (that's always been 3rd at best in global marketshare) isn't actually removing the option of a physical alternative for those that can't use it.
 

Temp_User

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,781
I consider it progress and I would support it, because it would be better for me, the same way Netflix is better for me than DVDs or BluRay.

The whole point was that anyone else remains free to provide the alternative, just as <insert-company-here> is free to provide an alternative to anyone that can't make use of Netflix due to their circumstances. I'm not making the argument that Steam should do the same also, and every console should be mandated to not require a physical disc. Your Netflix vs BluRay comparison only serves to highlight how one console (that's always been 3rd at best in global marketshare) isn't actually removing the option of a physical alternative for those that can't use it.

Like i said before, you do give off an impression of being a paid shill or just plain ignorant, unsympathetic towards your fellow . . . . gamers, specifically Xbox gamers. Did you know that military personnel are great fans of Halo? Its a good thing Microsoft is not as tone deaf and un-sympathetic as you and reversed those OG Xbox One always online, 24hr. checkin requirements. The basic functionality of playing games and blue-rays offline indefinitely is a very important thing and wouldve cost them quite a lot of lost sales had those policies remained intact.
 

spineduke

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
8,809
Like i said before, you do give off an impression of being a paid shill or just plain ignorant, unsympathetic towards your fellow . . . . gamers, specifically Xbox gamers. Did you know that military personnel are great fans of Halo? Its a good thing Microsoft is not as tone deaf and un-sympathetic as you and reversed those OG Xbox One always online, 24hr. checkin requirements. The basic functionality of playing games and blue-rays offline indefinitely is a very important thing and wouldve cost them quite a lot of lost sales had those policies remained intact.

In the end, Microsoft decided their vision was flawed and gave up on it. Not trying to be unsympathetic here, but that's the reality of the market.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
Like i said before, you do give off an impression of being a paid shill or just plain ignorant, unsympathetic towards your fellow . . . . gamers, specifically Xbox gamers. Did you know that military personnel are great fans of Halo? Its a good thing Microsoft is not as tone deaf and un-sympathetic as you and reversed those OG Xbox One always online, 24hr. checkin requirements. The basic functionality of playing games and blue-rays offline indefinitely is a very important thing and wouldve cost them quite a lot of lost sales had those policies remained intact.

And plenty of people are fans of the Marvel IP Netflix produces shows for.

You've apparently only got attacks on my character left in your corner... so you should probably just leave it be now.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
3,114
Christ, stop comparing MSs shitty drm plans to digital platforms that actually work like Netflix or Steam.
Even netflix, a fucking online only streaming service lets you download titles to watch without any internet connection for longer than 24 fucking hours.
 

Temp_User

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,781
And plenty of people are fans of the Marvel IP Netflix produces shows for.

You've apparently only got attacks on my character left in your corner... so you should probably just leave it be now.

Just to complete the analogy, had the OG Xbox One applied its always online, checkin policy to its blue ray, people who bought the the Daredevil Season 1 blue-ray would have to connect to the internet every 4 hours.

And there would be people like you defending that its progress.
 

Dog of Bork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,057
Texas
I'm not sure what koolaid people are drinking to think that the only way to be able to resell digital games is with an online check-in, but damn it must be delicious. To draw a false line in the sand that the "benefits" of 2013 MS's vision could only be possible when tied up with anti-consumer crap like a checkin and limiting vendors for resale takes some serious buy-in to corporate PR and a lack of critical thinking.

All of these things could have been done without phoning home every 24 hours. If MS were so committed to a pro-consumer stance when it comes to digital games, they would have rolled out their original vision to customers who were interested. All of these things could have been implemented during the life of the XB1, especially for first party titles.

This hasn't happened because it was never real. There were never any real plans for the upsides of their vision, it was just PR spin to keep a wobbling top from toppling. People hated their vision because it was objectively bad for consumers, so they made up a bunch of nice-sounding stuff on the fly that they could never explain and seemed to change with every interview. They somehow managed to get the gaming press at large to believe them, and even now some are convinced that the world was deprived of the Next Big Thing instead of saved from corporate greed. It's fascinating.
 

DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,618
Texas
Lmao Microsoft wasn't sympathetic to gamers, they were getting bent over a barrel and shown the fifty states with their pre order numbers prior to the policy reversals. They didn't give a fuck about gamers or any of that nonsense. They're a business. If the policies hadn't been an abject disaster for their bottom line, they would have kept them, simple as that.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,981
We do need to be pedantic if you're trying to draw a hard line between "acceptable" and "anti-consumer" for everyone else, yes.

And the re-evaluation of digital ownership is the entire topic here. What you just outlined as "clearly anti-consumer" is the current digital reality, to a greater extent then what you're arguing against. The only real difference is that you find it more acceptable to apply to digital owners.

Your rights to usage of content, versus the physical possession of it's delivery medium isn't a meaningless distinction to make. Even when not considering resales the rights you have over the content stored on physical media are not exhaustive. you for example need to obtain a separate non-theatrical theatre license to play a film in front of a large audience. The simple fact that you own the physical disc and the player that will run it doesn't automatically give you the rights to use it as you like. The two concepts are similar (and before full installs were effective bound to one another), but they aren't the same thing.

I'm trying really hard to be reasonable, but what are you talking about?

I buy a game. I have a right to sell the game on eBay. Or I have a right to lend that game to a friend. That's the benefit of a PHYSICAL disc.

What Microsoft wanted to do was to make it so a disc serves as an activation code, and after initial installation could not be freely resold as a functioning copy of a game nor lent as one. Furthermore, they wanted to make it so if a consumer wanted to recover some value from the product they would be forced to go to preapproved retailers, take whatever amount the store would offer, and that's assuming that the consumer would receive cash and not a gift card. It takes away the free market aspect of ownership.

So I'm sorry, but your perception of this is heavily flawed. It is not the same debate as digital ownership. Factually it isn't. Practically it isn't. Morally it isn't.

Taking away consumer rights is inherently anti-consumer unless the previous policy in some way was unfair to a producer of goods. Maybe there's more elegant way to put that, but it's blunt. Some anti-consumer policies are worse than others, but the specific drawbacks discussed in this thread ARE objectively anti-consumer and I can't fathom the mental gymnastics it's takes to believe otherwise.
 
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Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
Christ, stop comparing MSs shitty drm plans to digital platforms that actually work like Netflix or Steam.
Even netflix, a fucking online only streaming service lets you download titles to watch without any internet connection for longer than 24 fucking hours.

Calm down...

if you don't like comparisons in regards to an aspect of different services, then don't go making them yourself. If I mention Steamworks DRM as preventing you from selling a physical game, that doesn't mean I equating the two services as a whole.

Netflix has been operating a streaming service since 2007, and implement offline mode about 18 months ago. That's like a decade of not having any offline functionality at all, and they weren't anti-consumer during that window, even if it's better now that they have it.

If your argument is regarding people on deployment for months and months at a time, then there's little difference between the 7 day (or 48 hours) offline license Netflix will give you and a 24hr one. That's basically splitting hairs on the reality that you'd spend months unable to access either.

And it would "work". You not liking something and it not being accessible under every condition doesn't make it not "work". Quit being hyperbolic. It's not strengthening your arguments.

Just to complete the analogy, had the OG Xbox One applied its always online, checkin policy to its blue ray, people who bought the the Daredevil Season 1 blue-ray would have to connect to the internet every 4 hours.

And there would be people like you defending that its progress.

Nah, because the BluRay release is a different delivery method, with the consumer expectation on how they can use the media set prior to them buying the device. That's a closer comparison to porting a game to another platform (like say Minecraft to Switch), which is at the publisher's discretion.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
I'm trying really hard to be reasonable, but what are you talking about?

I buy a game. I have a right to sell the game on eBay. Or I have a right to lend that game to a friend. That's the benefit of a PHYSICAL disc.

What Microsoft wanted to do was to make it so a disc serves as an activation code, and after initial installation could not be freely resold as a functioning copy of a game nor lent as one. Furthermore, they wanted to make it so if a consumer wanted to recover some value from the product they would be forced to go to preapproved retailers, take whatever amount the store would offer, and that's assuming that the consumer would receive cash and not a gift card. It takes away the free market aspect of ownership.

So I'm sorry, but your perception of this is heavily flawed. It is not the same debate as digital ownership. Factually it isn't. Practically it isn't. Morally it isn't.

Taking away consumer rights is inherently anti-consumer unless the previous policy in some way was unfair to a producer of goods. Maybe there's more elegant way to put that, but it's blunt. Some anti-consumer policies are worse than others, but the specific drawbacks discussed in this thread ARE objectively anti-consumer and I can't fathom the mental gymnastics it's takes to believe otherwise.

If that's an inherent benefit of a physical disc, why are you not able to do all that with a physical Steamworks title? The answer is because that disc represents your right to access the digital content on it (and so it its digital rights management), but selling the disc just so happens to be how you also sell the license in this case. That's all good, but it's just a different type of DRM. When you're playing Uncharted 4 the disc is doing nothing more than telling the console not to kick you out. It's just a local DRM check as opposed to a remote one... with all the differences entailed by most local vs remote solutions.
 

Deleted member 5167

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Oct 25, 2017
3,114
if you don't like comparisons in regards to an aspect of different services, then don't go making them yourself. If I mention Steamworks DRM as preventing you from selling a physical game, that doesn't mean I equating the two services as a whole.

Picking and choosing aspects of different services is some grade-A disngenuity.
The PC has routinely used CD Keys as a DRM long before Steam ever even existed, because consoles themselves are hardware DRM.
An offline PC does not prevent access to its library.

Netflix is a streaming service.
It 'should' be functionally useless without an internet connection, because it is a rentals ervice; it is substantially cheaper than buying those titles. Except netflix genuinely does care about end user experience.
And again, when it launched, it launched as a disk-by-mail service, that had fuck all to do with "DRM", so again your 'picking and choosing' is some grade A bullshit dinsingenuity.

e:
You know, I actually wish MS had stuck with their plans, just so all you hardened Ms fanboys would be living the shitty life of a gimped to fuck console that got wholesale replaced by an Xbox New 2 years into its lifespan and you were stuck with a console nobody bought, nobody wants, and games you can't play or resell when those services got terminated due to lack of interest.
 
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Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
Picking and choosing aspects of different services is some grade-A disngenuity.
The PC has routinely used CD Keys as a DRM long before Steam ever even existed, because consoles themselves are hardware DRM.
An offline PC does not prevent access to its library.

Netflix is a streaming service.
It 'should' be functionally useless without an internet connection, because it is a rentals ervice; it is substantially cheaper than buying those titles. Except netflix genuinely does care about end user experience.
And again, when it launched, it launched as a disk-by-mail service, that had fuck all to do with "DRM", so again your 'picking and choosing' is some grade A bullshit dinsingenuity..

Netflix launched in 1997. I gave the year they started the streaming service.

If "picking-and-choosing" aspects to compare to make your point is "grade A disngenuity" then this whole discussion would be, because to argue about the 24hr authentication requirement it requires you to ignore any aspect of the current systems that are more restrictive (requiring disc in drive, no sale for digital content at all, etc). You start the very conversation off by "choosing aspects of different services".
 

Temp_User

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,781
Nah, because the BluRay release is a different delivery method, with the consumer expectation on how they can use the media set prior to them buying the device. That's a closer comparison to porting a game to another platform (like say Minecraft to Switch), which is at the publisher's discretion.

LOL. Now you're just grasping at straws.

The moment Halo fans (like the military and Xbox games fans in general) found out about the always,online 24hr checkin licensing policy of the OG Xbox One, they pressured Microsoft to walk back from it. Because the bare minimum expectation has always been that disc-based games that doesnt have an online component will work OFFLINE in consoles. That Netflix analogy and their corresponding DVD versions of their shows really highlighted how anti-consumer these OG Xbox One policies, doesn't it?
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,981
If that's an inherent benefit of a physical disc, why are you not able to do all that with a physical Steamworks title? The answer is because that disc represents your right to access the digital content on it (and so it its digital rights management), but selling the disc just so happens to be how you also sell the license in this case. That's all good, but it's just a different type of DRM. When you're playing Uncharted 4 the disc is doing nothing more than telling the console not to kick you out. It's just a local DRM check as opposed to a remote one... with all the differences entailed by most local vs remote solutions.

So you're rebuttal is a whattaboutism? First, the Steamworks physical copy being a coaster after installation is obviously not a pro-consumer policy. It's done, I assume, because the difference of PC versus consoles, and the ability to modify and copy and all sorts of things a computer provides that a console quite simply cannot. It's a practicality issue for PC games. But it is intellectually dishonest to proffer an argument about physical media ownership rights for one segment of an industry based on a different part with a clear dilineation of some
fundamental ways said industries and the technology within operate.

Publishers have expiremented with different forms of DRM throughout the years and whether or not a method sticks comes down to how much it inconveniences the consumers and subsequently how much backlash there is for the policy. Remember that two-three year period where buying a used copy of a console game with a multiplayer mode didn't give the person the ability to play online? They had to buy some kind of proprietary pass. You know why that's not a thing anymore? Because it was anti-consumer and it wasn't worth it for the publishers.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
LOL. Now you're just grasping at straws.

The moment Halo fans (like the military and Xbox games fans in general) found out about the always,online 24hr checkin licensing policy of the OG Xbox One, they pressured Microsoft to walk back from it. Because the bare minimum expectation has always been that disc-based games that doesnt have an online component will work OFFLINE. That Netflix analogy and their corresponding DVD versions of their shows really highlighted how anti-consumer these OG Xbox One policies, doesn't it?

No, because the DVDs aren't part of the Netflix service. You're now making an aren't regarding platform exclusivity.

So you're rebuttal is a whattaboutism? First, the Steamworks physical copy being a coaster after installation is obviously not a pro-consumer policy. It's done, I assume, because the difference of PC versus consoles, and the ability to modify and copy and all sorts of things a computer provides that a console quite simply cannot. It's a practicality issue for PC games. But it is intellectually dishonest to proffer an argument about physical media ownership rights for one segment of an industry based on a different part with a clear dilineation of some
fundamental ways said industries and the technology within operate.

Publishers have expiremented with different forms of DRM throughout the years and whether or not a method sticks comes down to how much it inconveniences the consumers and subsequently how much backlash there is for the policy. Remember that two-three year period where buying a used copy of a console game with a multiplayer mode didn't give the person the ability to play online? They had to buy some kind of proprietary pass. You know why that's not a thing anymore? Because it was anti-consumer and it wasn't worth it for the publishers.

"whataboutism" is only a valid retort if looking to deflect from a topic with an unrelated one to avoid addressing a point. Steamworks disc are directly related to the argument that console discs are a form of DRM. You chose to engage that discussion. Another type of disc directly connected to that topic is the CD, as I mentioned before. A general CD player also doesn't have the means to make changes to files and/or create copies of the content, but they typically don't function as a form of DRM either. The physical discs you have for consoles are the way they are, because they want you to prove you're not stealing it. That's what DRM is for. And a CD player is at least playing the content from the CD at the time.
 

Deleted member 5167

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Oct 25, 2017
3,114
If "picking-and-choosing" aspects to compare to make your point is "grade A disngenuity" then this whole discussion would be, because to argue about the 24hr authentication requirement it requires you to ignore any aspect of the current systems that are more restrictive

No, unless you really don't comprehend the difference between "I choose to buy digital, so I can't resell my titles", "I choose to buy physical so I lose the benefits of digital but can resell my games" and "The people who made my media player decided I can't resell my games except to authorised outlets, I can't play my games at all without a mandatory online verification and I am not getting my games or player any chepaer to compensate for any of that removal of choice or standard consumer rights"

Netflix started their streaming service because it was more convenient for users than waiting for disks. They still had the choice to get disks if thats what they preferred as they would know what scenario would be more useful to them.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,279
No, unless you really don't comprehend the difference between "I choose to buy digital, so I can't resell my titles", "I choose to buy physical so I lose the benefits of digital but can resell my games" and "The people who made my media player decided I can't resell my games except to authorised outlets, I can't play my games at all without a mandatory online verification and I am not getting my games or player any chepaer to compensate for any of that removal of choice or standard consumer rights"

Yea, the difference with those is that you chose to mention "digital benefits" at the point where it suited your stance, but ignore any benefit someone that chooses to buy into an all-digital system that trades permanent offline for more other digital benefits may find appealing.

I've already been over what those benefits would be previously, and so I'm not going to continue to repeat myself if you're not going to acknowledge their existence because it doesn't suit your position.