Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,545
No matter how you feel about waypoint's perspective it is odd to turn an evangelical cult who serve as the bad guys into a diverse group. Especially knowing Montana's demographics.

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That's true, but I imagine the diversity doesn't stop at the cult but also goes for the other NPCs. If the game were to reflect the actual demographics of Montana I have the feeling waypoint would also take issue with it.
 

Mikebison

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,036
Remember this Far Cry 5 reveal? Remember it being mysterious, unhinged, and even fascinating? Was the reveal the best part of Far Cry 5? People who've played the game, your input is appreciated.


Well obviously not considering there are some really high praising reviews in this very thread.
 

hydrophilic attack

Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,581
Sweden
That's true, but I imagine the diversity doesn't stop at the cult but also goes for the other NPCs. If the game were to reflect the actual demographics of Montana I have the feeling waypoint would also take issue with it.
An accurate representation of rural Montana would have the crazy evangelical cult be mostly white and the sane people much-less-so white. Problem is, the developers were clearly too chicken-shit to show how that racial reality is for fear of alienating racist (or totally not racist Trump-supporting) white customers
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,498
Greater Vancouver
This has to be the first time that Waypoint has an issue with diversity, lol


I think that's an absolute fair point, but the focus on the political aspect feels more like something people wished that was there but it was not something advertised by Ubisoft
Everyone present at the Far Cry 5 unveiling (that I follow) suggested that that was very much what they were advertising. And even if the Bioshock Infinite-esque cultish nationalism wasn't the intent, it sounds like the 'cult experts' they had there to be interviewed by journalists went thoroughly ignored in presenting this game's own villains.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
I know the American mindset very well. I have lived there for short periods, and travelled it extensively.

Roughly 50% of its population enthusiastically vote for a racist, or begrudgingly vote for a racist because they consider their gun rights and/or low taxes more important than keeping a racist out of the most powerful office in the World. That's all that needs to be said about the American mindset really. Especially the deplorable rural evangelical part of it. And so a game set in present-day rural America needs have something to say about these issues, for me to be interested.

Your too wound up over this.

When even Bioshock infinite, a game hyped up to be the grand daddy of exposing American exceptionalism by the developers ended up being watered down nothing, how can you expect something mindless like Far cry to want to explore something like that? Isn't it a problem with your own expectations rather than what FC5 was offering.

Maybe they hired the wrong marketing department or something. But nothing in the game itself has made me think it was offering anything deeper.
 

WarMacheen

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,572
I wanted to post a picture so I used a nice image showing the preliminary results rather than final results. The final results where very similar to those I posted, though slightly more tilted in favour of the Deplorables, I know. The small difference between final and preliminary results are completely non-relevant to the point I was trying to make
46% of voters who bothered to vote (58% of eligible voters), voted for Trump, not 46% of the US
 

Pedrito

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,373
I don't really think you can do biting political commentary without turning this game into a Trump supporters murder simulator. And wanting that is quite disturbing.

The other aspect is the target audience. It's a blockbuster game costing tens of millions. I don't think Ubisoft would want to alienate a certain crowd, quite big and vocal. Rockstar can't get away with it by laughing at both sides, but it would be difficult to do in this particular game.
 

hydrophilic attack

Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,581
Sweden
Your too wound up over this.

Even Bioshock infinite, a game hyped up to be the grand daddy of exposing American exceptionalism by the developers ended up being watered down nothing, how can you expect something like Far cry to want to explore something like that. Isn't it a problem with your own expectations rather than what FC5 was offering.
No, this just means that this game is not for me. And that outlets like Waypoint are sorely needed to help me make purchasing decisions
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
The point we are trying to make is that the mindset and political landscape in Montana is very different from literally almost anywhere in the world that is not Evangelical rural America. So when a game set in present-day Evangelical rural America is released outside Evangelical rural America, prospective buyers located outside Evangelical rural America would be interested in seeing the mindset and political landscape unique to Evangelical rural America explored.
Ok, then we just have different initial mindsets in general, and that's fine.

I do not naturally think about politics in video games at all. The only time I come across it is reading ERA threads (or GAF in the past).

This reflects that I don't care about politics in real-life either. I have never voted a single time even though I'm an American citizen by birth for over 40-years. So I'm certainly not going to care about it in video games.

But there's also nothing "wrong" with your personal preference to have all video games be political. You can certainly desire that. It's just different preferences for how we view video games (and probably life in general).
 

Arkaign

Member
Nov 25, 2017
1,991
The point we are trying to make is that the mindset and political landscape in Montana is very different from literally almost anywhere in the world that is not Evangelical rural America. So when a game set in present-day Evangelical rural America is released outside Evangelical rural America, prospective buyers located outside Evangelical rural America would be interested in seeing the mindset and political landscape unique to Evangelical rural America explored.

Lol. I think you may have some things confused.

I'm what conservatives would usually call a 'libtard', who points to Sweden and Norway as examples of more proper implementation of socialist logic.

I lived in Havre, Montana for a time for work, and also spent time with the Criw first Nations. And let me tell you, Montana is not the caricature of evangelism. You're thinking of Alabama, Mississippi, the Florida panhandle, rural Arkansas and Tennessee.

What Montana largely is in fact, is a big mostly empty country of gorgeous physical beauty and isolation. The people aren't overwhelmingly religious, it's not all that poor or wealthy either way. My wife, a half Thai, half native American, was uniformly treated with respect and kindness by everyone. I wore antiwar T-shirts to town without a comment other than a high five from a guy at the bar.

It's basically a pretty empty place with mostly quiet, unassuming, polite people. You're going to find less people at church on Sunday than at the grocery store or just out fishing.
 

hydrophilic attack

Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,581
Sweden
Lol. I think you may have some things confused.

I'm what conservatives would usually call a 'libtard', who points to Sweden and Norway as examples of more proper implementation of socialist logic.

I lived in Havre, Montana for a time for work, and also spent time with the Criw first Nations. And let me tell you, Montana is not the caricature of evangelism. You're thinking of Alabama, Mississippi, the Florida panhandle, rural Arkansas and Tennessee.

What Montana largely is in fact, is a big mostly empty country of gorgeous physical beauty and isolation. The people aren't overwhelmingly religious, it's not all that poor or wealthy either way. My wife, a half Thai, half native American, was uniformly treated with respect and kindness by everyone. I wore antiwar T-shirts to town without a comment other than a high five from a guy at the bar.

It's basically a pretty empty place with mostly quiet, unassuming, polite people. You're going to find less people at church on Sunday than at the grocery store or just out fishing.
Right. The voting record of Montana gives me a certain idea of what the place is like. So if a game that is set there fails to engage with those ideas and perhaps paint a more nuanced picture of the unique problems, atmosphere and people living in the area, I would consider it a wasted opportunity
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
46% of voters who bothered to vote (58% of eligible voters), voted for Trump, not 46% of the US
Well to be fair to hydrophilic on this, that still gives a relatively accurate gauge of the overall American citizens mindset.

Foreign non-citizens who aren't eligible to vote anyway, is irrelevant when it comes to politics.
 

WarMacheen

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,572
Lol. I think you may have some things confused.

I'm what conservatives would usually call a 'libtard', who points to Sweden and Norway as examples of more proper implementation of socialist logic.

I lived in Havre, Montana for a time for work, and also spent time with the Criw first Nations. And let me tell you, Montana is not the caricature of evangelism. You're thinking of Alabama, Mississippi, the Florida panhandle, rural Arkansas and Tennessee.

What Montana largely is in fact, is a big mostly empty country of gorgeous physical beauty and isolation. The people aren't overwhelmingly religious, it's not all that poor or wealthy either way. My wife, a half Thai, half native American, was uniformly treated with respect and kindness by everyone. I wore antiwar T-shirts to town without a comment other than a high five from a guy at the bar.

It's basically a pretty empty place with mostly quiet, unassuming, polite people. You're going to find less people at church on Sunday than at the grocery store or just out fishing.


But this person lived in the US a short time and traveled extensively, surely he knows the people of the entire country.

Well to be fair to hydrophilic on this, that still gives a relatively accurate gauge of the overall American citizens mindset.

Foreign non-citizens who aren't eligible to vote anyway, is irrelevant when it comes to politics.

The people eligible to vote, is not the entire "mindset" of the US. They are just the people legally able to express their views via voting. Also considering this is thread derailment, I'm done with it.
 

Altairre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,139
Ugh. When I played Super Mario Bros, I wasn't like "damn, wish the bad guy was Reagan instead of Koopa, trickle down economics is a farce!" Haha.

I mean, in a game where of course, the primary way of solving problems is blowing a bunch of people and animals away with guns, RPGs, grenades, etc is accepted as the gameplay loop, is a more closely tied contemporary political narrative what you really really want? If so, then you get into a really messy area.

In the real world, militias and xeonphobic groups are filled with real people with real subtleties. And there will definitely be children about who know nothing more than what they've been taught, but they are often armed and will have been trained to defend their property. Is it great if in the aim of political expediency, you play a character raiding a remote militia compound and have to fire on and kill children, mothers, etc?

Because in the real world you get Ruby Ridge, The Branch Dividians, etc. Things get muddy real fast, and the solution isn't shooty bang bang unless you have zero compunction for morality. The leadership and philosophy of these groups may be utterly reprehensible, but it's incongruous with making a realistic game variant imho, most especially in a damned far cry entry for fucks sake.

YMMV, no problem if you want yet more politics, I find the world to be so chock full of it that I have no problem zoning out with a fun fictional romp through a video game that isn't concerned about being a 1:1 real world paragon of political perfection.
It's really "just" a question of execution. It seems like they're trying a satirical approach but don't have anything particularly interesting to say and mainly falls into common tropes and clichés like the crazy hillbillies (testicle festival comes to mind). They're playing it safe but that also means it is inherently less interesting and it appears like the tonal inconsistencies don't necessarily help. Granted, I haven't played it myself but that's my impression from reading some of the reviews here. If you want to look at an example that does it fairly well I'd personally point to Wolfenstein II which is a shooter at its core and heavy on the (often even absurd) satire as well. Even so it manages to give the characters more depth than you would probably expect from a game like that and there's a lot of clever, relevant commentary in it, be in in the main story or just in the incidental bits of dialogue you overhear or newspapers you pick up.

You don't even have to look at another developer though, Watchdogs 2 had some really sharp writing and commentary too. They fuck it up a bit somewhat later in the game but the first mission you do at the Google equivalent is pretty great. There's a Waypoint articleabout it that's worth a read. So I think you absolutely can make a fun, entertaining game that still has something to say for those that are interested. Is it more difficult? Of course and I don't expect every game to get it right but I do have great respect for those that try because that's what I'll ultimately remember most. It's where I think a lot of the disappointment with this one comes from. They had such a unique setting and the opportunity to do more with it than "just" another Far Cry game.
 

OléGunner

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,291
Airborne Aquarium
Haha blamespace!

OT: sounds like the enemy road patrols are like AC:O guard convoys cranked up. Can see how that is annoying but Far Cry is all about chaos so I don't think it'll bother me as much like AC.
 

stufte

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
318
Right. The voting record of Montana gives me a certain idea of what the place is like. So if a game that is set there fails to engage with those ideas and perhaps even nuance them, I would consider it a wasted opportunity

If the voting record of a place you don't know much about is the only thing that informs you about that area, I'd consider your opinion uninformed.
 

CodeRich

Alt-Account.
Banned
Mar 3, 2018
396
Man people really wanted the cult to be an alt right white nationalist group didn't they?
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
No, this just means that this game is not for me. And that outlets like Waypoint are sorely needed to help me make purchasing decisions

I mean, i'd love to have unapologeticly politicized games too occasionally. Bioshock 1 was a brilliant deconstruction of libertarian views on society.

However, i don't think arguing about election results and franchises not ever once interested in political gossip suddenly shockingly still not exploring that despite world events is very smart.

Waypoint is responding to current events for a game years in the making.

Speaking of election results, as someone noted above. Almost half of the eligible voting populace didn't actually vote. Of the people who actually voted, it was almost evenly split. So in general, most people were probably sick of both choices.

If you want to be engaged in politics, you need to have your basics actually covered in terms of information.
 

MThanded

Member
Oct 26, 2017
336
That's true, but I imagine the diversity doesn't stop at the cult but also goes for the other NPCs. If the game were to reflect the actual demographics of Montana I have the feeling waypoint would also take issue with it.
point taken.
Especially if the game is generally diverse and not focused on making the cult diverse.

Hard to have it both ways.
 

CodeRich

Alt-Account.
Banned
Mar 3, 2018
396
You guys do realize that religious cults in American history tended to be quite anti racist and ethnically diverse. Jim Jones cult was mostly African American
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,600
I kinda had a feeling they weren't going to have the guts to say anything. Seems I was right about that. Ah well.
 

Luckydog

Attempting to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
636
USA
I know the American mindset very well. I have lived there for short periods, and travelled it extensively.

Roughly 50% of its population enthusiastically vote for a racist, or begrudgingly vote for a racist because they consider their gun rights and/or low taxes more important than keeping a racist out of the most powerful office in the World. That's all that needs to be said about the American mindset really. Especially the deplorable rural evangelical part of it. And so a game set in present-day rural America needs have something to say about these issues, for me to be interested.


You are off by an order of magnitude on your voting statistics.....but please, continue to tell us how well you know the american mindset with all your facts and that you "lived there for short periods".
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
Speaking of election results, as someone noted above. Almost half of the eligible voting populace didn't actually vote. Of the people who actually voted, it was almost evenly split. So in general, most people were probably sick of both choices.
Now this is something I can definitely agree with.

I'm over 40 and Hillary is definitely the absolute worst presidential nominee candidate in my lifetime since I turned 18. (excluding Trump)

*Unfortunately*, as bad as Hillary was, I knew Trump was even slightly worse. So it's just our luck as Americans that we get the two worst candidates in a long while at the same fucking time.

Why the hell would I want to vote in those circumstances. I do not believe in the "lesser of two evils" principle, when both are so bad.
 

Listonosh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
209
Not sure if this has been asked/answered/mentioned on here yet but do any of the reviews touch on if the progression was changed at all when playing in co op. Early on, reports stated that progression was only tied to the host and not the person joining in. Is that still true? That's kind of the only thing sort of holding me back, since I plan on mostly co-oping this with a buddy, but at the off chance one of us can't play, it would be kinda shitty if our progress didn't continue where we left off whoever ends up being the one dropping in.
 

MThanded

Member
Oct 26, 2017
336
Now this is something I can definitely agree with.

I'm over 40 and Hillary is definitely the absolute worst presidential nominee candidate in my lifetime since I turned 18. (excluding Trump)

*Unfortunately*, as bad as Hillary was, I knew Trump was even slightly worse. So it's just our luck as Americans that we get the two worst candidates in a long while at the same fucking time.

Why the hell would I want to vote in those circumstances. I do not believe in the "lesser of two evils" principle, when both are so bad.

What is even going on in this thread? It was pretty clear from your earlier posts that this was inevitably coming however you can't just drop this gem in here without backing this up with some logic.
 

ryseing

Bought courtside tickets just to read a book.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,546
For lovers
Oh look, another game giant bomb shits on, more news at 12.

Gameplay stream where this usually happens when?

Giant Bomb likes plenty of games. They just aren't afraid to call out what they view as mediocrity, which is great for someone like myself who only wants to play the best stuff.

And let me tell you, Montana is not the caricature of evangelism. You're thinking of Alabama, Mississippi, the Florida panhandle, rural Arkansas and Tennessee.

Appalachia would have been a better setting for this game, but doing so would have forced Ubisoft to take a firmer stance.
 
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Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,600
It's their game and they can tell the story they want, but if you base something in rural America and don't even attempt to confront the racial tensions that often roil beneath the surface when they don't out and out influence daily life is absolutely cowardly. Montana is not Alabama, yes, but I doubt that any part of America is untouched by our long, troubled history of race in America, and all they are doing is attempting to avoid the topic.

I sincerely doubt most Native Americans would have such a cheery view on the way they've been treated or perceived. I mean, if you're not going to explore black/white relations (which make little sense given the demographic makeup of Montana), why would you not explore race through the lens of Native Americans? They had ways to do it, they just didn't want to.
 

Sou Da

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
I still think they should have just done with they clearly wanted and given the cult magic powers.
 

FireSafetyBear

Banned for use of an alt-account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,248
Right. The voting record of Montana gives me a certain idea of what the place is like. So if a game that is set there fails to engage with those ideas and perhaps paint a more nuanced picture of the unique problems, atmosphere and people living in the area, I would consider it a wasted opportunity

They might have voted Trump but I'd choose Montana over most states including NY, California, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi.
 

cooldawn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,457
It's a shame. I did have this pre-ordered but, as time went by, I cancelled the pre-order. It just didn't seem to far different from everything that came before it. I haven't bought a FarCry game for years because of that but I think I might give this a shot when it's cheaper.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
Now this is something I can definitely agree with.

I'm over 40 and Hillary is definitely the absolute worst presidential nominee candidate in my lifetime since I turned 18. (excluding Trump)

*Unfortunately*, as bad as Hillary was, I knew Trump was even slightly worse. So it's just our luck as Americans that we get the two worst candidates in a long while at the same fucking time.

Why the hell would I want to vote in those circumstances. I do not believe in the "lesser of two evils" principle, when both are so bad.

I agree, even though i myself grit my teeth and voted on election day.

We're at a time period where corporate malfeasance is at its highest, corruption in politics is at an all time high, getting paid off is "just what happens"(take a look at the NRA and the recent bipartisan bank deregulation bill for how that turns out, or literally anything the GOP proposes), people are struggling, a majority of people live paycheck to paycheck and havent had a decent raise or jump in living standards for years(or decades). And all the money still goes to the top and the rest of it, regardless of the party, still goes to the military for whatever they want to blow all that on.

Neither of the two candidates ever tried to seriously address real concerns the majority of American citizens are feeling and because of that we have the worst option in the white house because that managed to tip the scales. Complacency on the part of politicians invites apathy from voters first and foremost. In addition to unrest, hatred, scapegoats, among other things.


All the while, we have people arguing about whether FC5's fictionalized montana is white enough, and people arguing about whether black nazi's in WW2 even make sense.

In the end, these devs will just fill games with people who look like their audience regardless of if it makes sense in terms of reality or not. I've seen it argued that that is a good thing for representation.
 

Dullahan

Always bets on black
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,410
Giant Bomb likes plenty of games. They just aren't afraid to call out mediocrity, which is great for someone like myself who only wants to play the best stuff.

So all positive voices (which is the majority of the reviews) are wrong or lying?

I don't understand this mindset of willingly ignoring voices that go against your (seemingly) preconceived notion of "This game is mediocre". Which would include great reviewers like MHWilliams who posts in this very thread.

Plus seeing as most reviews are 8+ and up, and the two biggest outlets have the game at a 9/10 (their reviews just aren't up on MC yet), this is the best reviewing Far Cry since 3, which is a pretty cool thing to see for fans.
 

Keeng

Member
Nov 1, 2017
495
Oh look, another game giant bomb shits on, more news at 12.

Gameplay stream where this usually happens when?

That review of Far Cry has been true since Far Cry 3 though (Primal obviously being excused). They're just open world pew-pew simulators with no compelling story or characters.

EDIT: That I enjoy playing.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,687
Austin's review is great, but for me personally the narrative is never why I played the Far Cry games. I loved 4 and I couldn't tell you what the story or characters were (and that's certainly a failing on the games part). The idea of the far cry games (specifically 3 and 4) being these games with narrative impact is not something that ever really resonated with me. I was (and still am) looking forward to 5 but was never really expecting the story to be anything but hokey background noise.
 

ryseing

Bought courtside tickets just to read a book.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,546
For lovers
So all positive voices (which is the majority of the reviews) are wrong or lying?

I don't understand this mindset of willingly ignoring voices that go against your (seemingly) preconceived notion of "This game is mediocre". Which would include great reviewers like MHWilliams who posts in this very thread.

Plus seeing as most reviews are 8+ and up, and the two biggest outlets have the game at a 9/10 (their reviews just aren't up on MC yet), this is the best reviewing Far Cry since 3, which is a pretty cool thing to see for fans.

No. The comment I replied to said GB doesn't like games, when in fact they do. I should have said "viewed as mediocre". Some sites handle games they view as mediocre with kid gloves, and I appreciate that GB doesn't. That's all my comment was. I'm quite looking forward to FC5- my Gold Edition arrives tomorrow. Wasn't making a statement about its perceived quality.
 

Iorv3th

Member
Oct 27, 2017
580
An accurate representation of rural Montana would have the crazy evangelical cult be mostly white and the sane people much-less-so white. Problem is, the developers were clearly too chicken-shit to show how that racial reality is for fear of alienating racist (or totally not racist Trump-supporting) white customers

What? Have you been to any of these rural areas at all?