Fire Emblem: Three Houses |OT2| Greetings, Era! Nothing to Report!

[TurokTTZ]

Fuck Balthus and Hapi paralogue.
Currently on Black Eagles part 1 no new game plus maddening. Thankfully I actually trained Balthus. Hapi is a different story...

Hm... Only Byleth can comfortably take these fools. Everyone else is either DOA or in critical condition after one battle.

I'm extremely happy I got the dlc reward. Because otherwise I'm not sure how exactly I'm gonna pull off this paralogue.

Love the battle placements.

 

[Homura]

Any other characters get new supports in the main game outside of Jertiza? (and whatever characters the Ashen Wolves characters have supports with)

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Nope.

 

[Slim Action]

A character being completely Speed screwed is, for me, the oldest, purest Fire Emblem experience.

 

[lovecatt]

I need some advice. I've been stuck on the final Azure Moon mission for like two months & can't beat it. Either my party is too under levelled or I'm too dumb

 

[PBalfredo]

I need some advice. I've been stuck on the final Azure Moon mission for like two months & can't beat it. Either my party is too under levelled or I'm too dumb

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If you kill Myson, all the TWSitD units will retreat, which will give you some breathing room. It's possible to take him out on the first turn with a high movement unit plus the use of a Stride gambit.

 

[SlickVic]

I hope you didn't make Flayn your dancer...

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Nope I haven't really used Flayn to be honest, outside the paralogue. Already have too many people on my roster, and with most battles up to the point I've played limited to 10 units + 3 adjutants, she's always been the odd one out for me, so I figured to make my dancer someone who was already in my active rotation. From a story standpoint, it was sad to see her go I suppose, but I wasn't using her for battles.

 

[Disclaimer]

I need some advice. I've been stuck on the final Azure Moon mission for like two months & can't beat it. Either my party is too under levelled or I'm too dumb

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If you kill Myson, all the TWSitD units will retreat, which will give you some breathing room. It's possible to take him out on the first turn with a high movement unit plus the use of a Stride gambit.

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It's also possible to ignore the right side of the map altogether and concentrate on the left.

You can kill the Meteor casters by using the Retribution gambit on someone who'll survive a cast and then one-round them in counterattack.

You can also stop the reinforcements from ever coming by having someone reach the stairs just above the starting position.

Honestly the most dangerous thing on the map, aside from Myson, are the grapplers.

 

[lovecatt]

If you kill Myson, all the TWSitD units will retreat, which will give you some breathing room. It's possible to take him out on the first turn with a high movement unit plus the use of a Stride gambit.

Click to shrink...

It's also possible to ignore the right side of the map altogether and concentrate on the left.

You can kill the Meteor casters by using the Retribution gambit on someone who'll survive a cast and then one-round them in counterattack.

You can also stop the reinforcements from ever coming by having someone reach the stairs just above the starting position.

Honestly the most dangerous thing on the map, aside from Myson, are the grapplers.

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actually, I can one shot Myson. I just still have trouble making it up the left side with a decent sized party & then once I get to the top level before Edglegard all those units destroy me

edit: nvm I beat it. It was just I indeed being too dumb. Made it out with only one casualty too (rip Seteth). thanks for the help guys

 

[shinespark]

I've never used Ferdinand before cuz he's pretty obnoxious pre-timeskip, but I'm giving him a shot this go around and I'm realizing his personal skill plus his A supports with 3 different artillery mages can push him upwards of like 110 avoid on player phase? That seems nuts.

 

[Deleted member 48434]

A character being completely Speed screwed is, for me, the oldest, purest Fire Emblem experience.

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They REALLY need to rethink how the speed stat works in Fire Emblem.
As it is it's the single most important stat and any units with a lack of it tend to be fucked. I hate that.

 

[HBK]

They REALLY need to rethink how the speed stat works in Fire Emblem.
As it is it's the single most important stat and any units with a lack of it tend to be fucked. I hate that.

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The basic idea is interesting but what I don't really understand is why they lowered the threshold from 5 to 4. If anything I would have increased it. Getting doubled (or doubling for that matter) is way too frequent IMO.

 

[Deleted member 48434]

The basic idea is interesting but what I don't really understand is why they lowered the threshold from 5 to 4. If anything I would have increased it. Getting doubled (or doubling for that matter) is way too frequent IMO.

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I think a better way would be: if +4 AS, then you get a second hit for 0.5 damage. A half hit.
If a whopping +8 AS, then you double properly.

Another way could be just to split it into attack speed and Evade, maybe.
Or maybe just remove doubling altogether and think of another use for the speed stat.

 

[HBK]

I think a better way would be: if +4 AS, then you get a second hit for 0.5 damage. A half hit.
If a whopping +8 AS, then you double properly.

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Meh, not a fan of that. Either they increase the threshold to like 6 or 7, or they keep it lower but calm down the speed inflation. Seriously some units have 10 speed while others have 50 by the end of the game. I mean why not but other stats have fairly linear effects (with threshold effects of course). If you have 10 def you're at a strong disadvantage compared to a 20 def character and at an even greater disadvantage compared to a 30 def character, etc. But having 10 speed or 20 speed changes nothing as long as most enemy units have 25+ speed (same as having 40 or 50 speed changes nothing except when fighting the few very high speed units).

I mean I get the "average" idea that a higher speed means more opportunities for doubling/less risk of being doubled but you basically have two sets of characters by the end of the game. Characters who double (almost) everyone, and characters getting doubled by (almost) everyone. So it basically stops being a "stat", and just becomes a unit "characteristic", if that makes sense.

 

[PBalfredo]

Beat Cindered Shadows Hard/Classic over the weekend. It was a stiff challenge, but it felt good to overcome. Time to finally dip into Maddening with NG+ Crimson Flowers. I got a ton of renown saved up, so time to go nuts. Going with Black Eagles + Ashen Wolves.

Thinking of what classes to shoot for. Ideally something that's viable for Maddening, but isn't just "Oops, All Wyvern Lords!" since I ended up heavy on wyverns in my AM run and it was rather dull

Byleth: Falco Knight
Edelgard: Wyvern Lord, naturally.
Hubert: Why oh why does Valkyrie have to be gender locked? Do any classes work for Hubert other than Dark Bishop? Is magic bow Hubert a thing?
Ferdinand: Already unlocked Swift Strikes with renown. So something that makes use of that. Just straight up Paladin?
Caspar: Unlocked Quick Riposte already, so going War Monk for Brawl Avo +20
Linhardt: Is there anything other than Bishop that works for him?
Bernie: President Sniper since I already snagged Encloser
Dorothea: Dark Flier. I already got ranks in flying due to my White Magic Avoid Bishop Dorothea from VW.
Petra: Probably Wyvern Lord. It's such a good fit, even if I've already done that with her.
Lysithea: Valkyrie. Magic Range +1 on top of Thrysus please and thank you
Yuri: Dancer. His fetters are the perfect utility for dancers.
Balthus: War Master
Constance: Gonna try magic hands War Monk
Hapi: Gremory or Dark Flier

 

[Disclaimer]

Hubert: Why oh why does Valkyrie have to be gender locked? Do any classes work for Hubert other than Dark Bishop? Is magic bow Hubert a thing?

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Could also do magic lance Hubert, since his hidden talent is Frozen Lance (magic-based combat art), and you can get the Arrow of Indra magic lance on Crimson Flower.

Ferdinand: Already unlocked Swift Strikes with renown. So something that makes use of that. Just straight up Paladin?

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Ferdinand makes an interesting frontline Dancer dodge tank with his personal skill and Sword Avo +20, but Yuri's also great for that. Could have them both on utility with Yuri as Trickster.

 

[PBalfredo]

Could also do magic lance Hubert, since his hidden talent is Frozen Lance (magic-based combat art), and you can get the Arrow of Indra magic lance on Crimson Flower.

Ferdinand makes an interesting frontline Dancer dodge tank with his personal skill and Sword Avo +20, but Yuri's also great for that. Could have them both on utility with Yuri as Trickster.

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I thought about magic lance, but Arrow of Indra comes pretty late in the game and you can't forge it beforehand like Levin Sword or Bolt Axe. I could just use the Frozen Lance art, but I might be better off with his spell list, since Banshee will be useful in locking down any stubborn unit that won't die that turn.

I've heard that Ferdie's personal skill makes him a good dodge tank, though I don't think I want to commit him to dancer since I want to make use of his Swift Strike art offensively and have my dancer dancing to enable Raging Storm shenanigans. If I had Fist Avoid +20 from the War Monk class, that would be an amazing skill to slap on Confident Ferdie right out the gate in NG+. So I might pursue that or go the typical Wyvern Lord for Avo +10 and the option to Alert Stance.

Again, it stinks that so many classes are gender locked. Ferdie would be a fantastic Falcon Knight, able to use Lancefaire for Swift Strike, Avo +10 and even Defiant Avo to fall back on if he takes a hit and loses his Confidence. Plus, how aesthetically perfect is Falcon Knight Ferdinand paired up with Dark Flier Hubert? *Chef kiss*

 

[Homura]

Lysithea: Valkyrie. Magic Range +1 on top of Thrysus please and thank you

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Don't.
It's true Valkyrie is one of Lysithea best classes but horses are completely useless in the final CF map.
If you really want to make her one then at least reclass her to Gremory in the final chapter.

 

[PBalfredo]

Don't.
It's true Valkyrie is one of Lysithea best classes but horses are completely useless in the final CF map.
If you really want to make her one then at least reclass her to Gremory in the final chapter.

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Do class skills except canto still apply even when dismounted, giving her the +1 range even when on foot?

 

[Homura]

Do class skills except canto still apply even when dismounted, giving her the +1 range even when on foot?

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IIRC yes.

 

[blueredandgold]

OK gonna jump in (finally).

Brief status update:

Played Path of Radiance, Awakening, and the Fates's. Got quite far in to the first two.

I understand no weapon triangle here

No (at least early) animorph business.

Arrows still insta-kill flying units?

What was the DLC changes to the difficulty exactly? I don't mind perma-death but in the interests of actually finishing a campaign for once I might relent here.

I end up trying to min-max the slightest little thing when starting a new game (of anything, even if I'm seasoned) and want to kinda go in blind here.

Anything I absolutely must know?

 

[Tochtli79]

OK gonna jump in (finally).

Brief status update:

Played Path of Radiance, Awakening, and the Fates's. Got quite far in to the first two.

I understand no weapon triangle here

No (at least early) animorph business.

Arrows still insta-kill flying units?

What was the DLC changes to the difficulty exactly? I don't mind perma-death but in the interests of actually finishing a campaign for once I might relent here.

I end up trying to min-max the slightest little thing when starting a new game (of anything, even if I'm seasoned) and want to kinda go in blind here.

Anything I absolutely must know?

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Fliers still weak to arrows yup.

DLC added Maddening mode. Don't choose it for your first run, obviously. Start on Hard/Casual if you don't want permadeath or Hard/Classic if you want to try with it on. There's a mechanic that you unlock to rewind turns if you need up so even on Classic you don't have to worry about permanently losing someone and having to reset. You can also lower the difficulty if you're struggling to Normal, but you can't raise it from Normal to Hard. Normal is really easy though.

Another tip I'd give you is to not stress about putting characters in the right class or raising the right skills all the time.

Which House are you thinking of choosing?

 

[blueredandgold]

Fliers still weak to arrows yup.

DLC added Maddening mode. Don't choose it for your first run, obviously. Start on Hard/Casual if you don't want permadeath or Hard/Classic if you want to try with it on. There's a mechanic that you unlock to rewind turns if you need up so even on Classic you don't have to worry about permanently losing someone and having to reset. You can also lower the difficulty if you're struggling to Normal, but you can't raise it from Normal to Hard. Normal is really easy though.

Another tip I'd give you is to not stress about putting characters in the right class or raising the right skills all the time.

Which House are you thinking of choosing?

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Thanks.

Any thing to do with Houses I've tried keep abreast of but more than likely I've forgotten. I did like the way Fates "did it".

But I know it's different to that.

My usual play-style previously has been conservative, so I will send in my avatar character/protag to tank what I can and pepper the weaklings with ranged attacks. I usually didn't bother with support characters apart from the ones they shove in your face at the start.

I will hopefully get a better understanding during the prologue?

 

[Lotus]

I've beaten the Church route, Blue Lions (the best one), the DLC, and now Crimson Flower. I am pooped, I don't got anymore energy for Claude and his squad. What are the major differences/lore reveals between Golden Deer and the Church route? I recall reading that they were pretty similar for the most part.

 

[HBK]

I've beaten the Church route, Blue Lions (the best one), the DLC, and now Crimson Flower. I am pooped, I don't got anymore energy for Claude and his squad. What are the major differences/lore reveals between Golden Deer and the Church route? I recall reading that they were pretty similar for the most part.

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Even more details from the 1000 year old war. But yes, copy/pasta otherwise.

 

[PBalfredo]

Seeing a fresh Balthus right next to NG+ Caspar in Maddening really illustrates how stupid powerful Death Blow is. B has a higher strength stat but is struggling for kills, meanwhile Short King is deleting units on player phase with his gauntlets.

 

[Blade24070]

Man, the fact that there's no type of weather or even seasonal graphical changes is really disappointing.

 

[HBK]

Man, the fact that there's no type of weather or even seasonal graphical changes is really disappointing.

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There's a cruel lack of map visuals. I mean more map layouts would be cool, but seeing the same forests and trees and mountains and buildings gets real old real fast.

 

[Blade24070]

How did everyone else do with recruiting others? I'm playing as a female and so I recruited Sylvain instantly. Last chapter I recruited Felix because I love his design. This chapter I just recruited Ingrid and can recruit both Mercedes and Dorothea. Does this affect the post-time skip story in any way? I guess for those I accepted it's too late to kick them out, but part of me wishes I had stuck with my house plus the knights (and Sylvain cuz he's probably my best unit).

 

[Homura]

How did everyone else do with recruiting others? I'm playing as a female and so I recruited Sylvain instantly. Last chapter I recruited Felix because I love his design. This chapter I just recruited Ingrid and can recruit both Mercedes and Dorothea. Does this affect the post-time skip story in any way? I guess for those I accepted it's too late to kick them out, but part of me wishes I had stuck with my house plus the knights (and Sylvain cuz he's probably my best unit).

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You'll have to kill all the students you didn't recruit.
For a first playthrough it's recommended not to recruit too many people.

 

[Blade24070]

You'll have to kill all the students you didn't recruit.
For a first playthrough it's recommended not to recruit too many people.

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Right, I figured. But the thing is, I'm only in chapter 10 and 35 hours in already (how tf?). I don't see myself playing this game again, certainly not soon. So I'll recruit the ones I like, at least. I mean, I've only recruited 4 so far (Dorothea, Sylvain, Felix, and Ingrid) so I didn't go overboard.

thanks for the reply!

 

[Tochtli79]

How did everyone else do with recruiting others? I'm playing as a female and so I recruited Sylvain instantly. Last chapter I recruited Felix because I love his design. This chapter I just recruited Ingrid and can recruit both Mercedes and Dorothea. Does this affect the post-time skip story in any way? I guess for those I accepted it's too late to kick them out, but part of me wishes I had stuck with my house plus the knights (and Sylvain cuz he's probably my best unit).

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Yeah students from other houses will appear as enemies post skip, the ones you recruit will usually be replaced by generic units, so you miss out on dialogue and the whole concept of fighting your former schoolmates is a little undermined if you go too crazy recruiting people. I always limit myself to 3-4 students from other houses combined, so I would say don't recruit anyone else after Ingrid. You can't really use a large army efficiently anyway as most maps limit you to 10 characters including Byleth and your lord. I don't know about the other teachers, I always recruit them. I know some of the Knights of Seiros appear post skip if you don't recruit them.

 

[HBK]

You'll have to kill all the students you didn't recruit.
For a first playthrough it's recommended not to recruit too many people.

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Not all of them depending on your route (some students don't appear in some routes IIRC). I'm pretty sure Marianne doesn't show up in CF for example (IIRC).

 

[Master Milk]

Not all of them depending on your route (some students don't appear in some routes IIRC). I'm pretty sure Marianne doesn't show up in CF for example (IIRC).

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Spoiler

supposed it's heavily implied she kills herself, but since you could have saved her, gonna just say THE BLOOD IS ON YOUR HANDS!!!

 

[Morlas]

Not all of them depending on your route (some students don't appear in some routes IIRC). I'm pretty sure Marianne doesn't show up in CF for example (IIRC).

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i thought she didn't show up on any non GD route if unrecruited

 

[Bovine]

Silver Snow has by far the least amount of recruitable students show up (only Ashe and Lorenz, and you have to fight them even if you recruit them), so if you want to do a recruit everyone run that is the route to do it.

For the Blue Lions only Marianne doesn't show up, and you can fight Hanneman and Manuela as well if they were unrecruited. Haven't played the other two routes yet.

 

[HBK]

i thought she didn't show up on any non GD route if unrecruited

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I dunno CF is the only route where I recruited no one 🤷‍♀️

 

[shinespark]

Balthus and Hapi's paralogue spawns in 21 new units on turn 5, what a boring gotcha.

 

[Blade24070]

Wow, I'm annoyed that I somehow missed Rhea's B-support. I feel like I remember seeing it a while back, and it said "you can't yet deepen this bond," but she never approached me and now it's too late. Oh well, too bad, I guess.

 

[sora bora]

Hi all. Question about a second - and final - playthrough:

I completed Cindered Shadows, having previously completed the Blue Lions storyline. I rarely repeat playthroughs. I'd like to give this a shot.

I'd very much appreciate a suggestion as to which house storyline to choose next in this situation.

Thank you!

 

[PBalfredo]

Hi all. Question about a second - and final - playthrough:

I completed Cindered Shadows, having previously completed the Blue Lions storyline. I rarely repeat playthroughs. I'd like to give this a shot.

I'd very much appreciate a suggestion as to which house storyline to choose next in this situation.

Thank you!

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Crimson Flower. It pairs well with Blue Lions since it explores the other side of Azure Moon's primary conflict. You'll get different story beats since CF isn't primarily about the march to Enbarr like in AM, VW and SS. Jeritza is an exclusive character to that route and the battle of Taltean Plains is one of the best maps in the game.

 

[Master Milk]

Hi all. Question about a second - and final - playthrough:

I completed Cindered Shadows, having previously completed the Blue Lions storyline. I rarely repeat playthroughs. I'd like to give this a shot.

I'd very much appreciate a suggestion as to which house storyline to choose next in this situation.

Thank you!

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gonna second edelgard's route, if you've only got one left in you

 

[sora bora]

Crimson Flower. It pairs well with Blue Lions since it explores the other side of Azure Moon's primary conflict. You'll get different story beats since CF isn't primarily about the march to Enbarr like in AM, VW and SS. Jeritza is an exclusive character to that route and the battle of Taltean Plains is one of the best maps in the game.

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gonna second edelgard's route, if you've only got one left in you

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Good enough for me. Thank you both.

 

[Disclaimer]

Going to disagree here. Crimson Flower is a nice counterpart to Azure Moon, but they tell two halves of the same conflict, and Crimson Flower isn't going to reveal all that much that Azure Moon failed to.

I'd say Verdant Wind (Golden Deer). That way you'll get to experience another house & lord, while also doing one of the two routes where lore is revealed, and where questions about the setup in Part 1 are actually answered.

That said, if you're feeling flexible sora bora, you could go Black Eagles, and make a save file before the route split (after Chapter 11's battle), then do both Crimson Flower and Silver Snow. The former is the shortest Part 2 in the game, and will give you the counterpart to Azure Moon, while the latter will give you answers & lore similar to Verdant Wind.

 

[sora bora]

I'd say Verdant Wind (Golden Deer). That way you'll get to experience another house & lord, while also doing one of the two routes where lore is revealed, and where questions about the setup in Part 1 are actually answered.

That said, if you're feeling flexible sora bora, you could go Black Eagles, and make a save file before the route split (after Chapter 11's battle), then do both Crimson Flower and Silver Snow. The former is the shortest Part 2 in the game, and will give you the counterpart to Azure Moon, while the latter will give you answers & lore similar to Verdant Wind.

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hah! Just as I offer thanks above, a contrasting opinion arrives! With Fire Emblem, seems it would be weird to have it any other way.

If narrative uniqueness is one of the strengths of the Golden Deer route, that may be the biggest factor for me. Even more so than the other side of the same conflict. That said I'm sure they're all pretty close so it's not as if I'm playing a different game.

hmmm!

 

[Master Milk]

if you can stand playing the game long enough, splitting your edelgard route is better than going claude

 

[Disclaimer]

hah! Just as I offer thanks above, a contrasting opinion arrives! With Fire Emblem, seems it would be weird to have it any other way.

I am intrigued by the notions put forth in your second paragraph. If narrative uniqueness is one of the strengths of the Golden Deer route, then that may in fact be the biggest factor for me. Even more so than the other side of the same conflict. That said I'm sure they're all pretty close so it's not as if I'm playing a different game.

hmmm!

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They're close in that all of the Part 2's feature liberal map reuse between each other—but as far as story, they're completely different. Azure Moon's story was a very personal one about Dimitri, his relationship with Edelgard, and how the Tragedy of Duscur affected Faerghus. Crimson Flower will give you Edelgard's perspective of that same conflict, and she's a compelling character.

Silver Snow and Verdant Wind are sort of odd conjoined twins, in that all but their final maps are identical, and they reveal much the same stuff (which is crucial to an understanding of the game, and all the threads set up in Part 1, like Those Who Slither in the Dark). You can tell SS was created first, and VW repurposed from it, but VW is still worth playing for its unique thematics revolving around racism and being an outsider.

Ultimately, if you can stomach it, I'd recommend doing both routes of Black Eagles for the "most complete" experience while only having to replay Part 1 once. If you do this, be diligent about raising both Edelgard and Rhea's support levels in Part 1, though. Edelgard's support level is required to be able to choose her route, while Rhea's supports humanize her a bit, and make her available as an S-rank option exclusive to Silver Snow route, if you're interested. (Rhea's supports are a little challenging to get—you basically have to use a lot of gifts on her, and there are tight cutoff windows; don't worry if you miss it.)

 

[Common Knowledge]

I dunno CF is the only route where I recruited no one 🤷‍♀️

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Yeah Marianne disappears off the face of the earth if you don't recruit her before the time-skip (except for GD since she's in that by default). There's speculation that, considering her support conversations, especially with Byleth, that she

Spoiler

commits suicide sometime during the time-skip.

 

[sora bora]

Holy cow the stuff and renown you start with in a post-cindered NG+ is something else. 27,500 for my part.

I am become anime death; destroyer of worlds.

 

[PBalfredo]

All routes reuse maps, but the CF version of those maps are uniquely different from the other routes in terms of starting position and mission objective. For example, all routes use the same map for Chapter 12 and all have you on the defense except CF which places you on the offense, which is a completely different experience, complete with different mission events. CF is definitely the most unique in terms of gameplay experience.

hah! Just as I offer thanks above, a contrasting opinion arrives! With Fire Emblem, seems it would be weird to have it any other way.

If narrative uniqueness is one of the strengths of the Golden Deer route, that may be the biggest factor for me. Even more so than the other side of the same conflict. That said I'm sure they're all pretty close so it's not as if I'm playing a different game.

hmmm!

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In terms of narrative uniqueness I'd still put CF over VW/SS. The main thrust of the campaign in all the anti-imperial routes is the march to Embarr and that means repeating a lot of the same events. Bridge of Myrdan, Gronder Field, Fort Mercues, Seige of Enbarr, etc. They're the same beats, and honestly a bit drier without the sideshow of Dimitri's unraveling mental state. It's only after that does VW/SS get to some of its unique moments, and they are pretty wild, but to get there you have to retread at lot of the same narrative ground as AM.

Meanwhile, Edelgard has her own campaign in CF, having to face off against Rhea and Dimitri, while dealing with her """"partners"""""" in the war. It also shows a side of Edelgard that never gets explored in the other routes. And most importantly, Bernie comes out of her room!

And if you just want the lore that VW/SS provides, honestly just go watch a youtube video. The unique lore is pretty condensed to a few scenes near the end, rather than sprinkled through the campaign. Playing Field of Revenge > watching Rhea lore dump in a dialog scene

 

[Disclaimer]

All routes reuse maps, but the CF version of those maps are uniquely different from the other routes in terms of starting position and mission objective. For example, all routes use the same map for Chapter 12 and all have you on the defense except CF which places you on the offense, which is a completely different experience, complete with different mission events. CF is definitely the most unique in terms of gameplay experience.

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Honestly, I think you're overstating CF's gameplay uniqueness. Yes, it flips Chapters 12 and 13 (both of which are functionally identical when flipped lol), and has a nice unique map for Chapter 17, but that's... it. Proportionally it's the same reuse, just less numerically because it's the shortest route by 3-4 maps. Relative to Azure Moon, both VW & SS have more unique maps, even if they also have more of the same.

VW/SS very clearly offer lore, answers, and follow-up to Part 1 that neither AM/CF do—stuff that's crucial to forming an understanding of the game's events. But like I said, a CF&SS run would offer the "most complete" experience.