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jfkgoblue

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,650
Dorne are supposed to become a big player in the books. They had to do it. They just completely botched that arc.
Are they? So far we have them trying to play all sides with the Lannisters(Tristain), Dany(Quentyn) and fAegon(Arienne). Quentyn has already died without impacting the plot in any way, Myrcella just got an ear chopped off, so they aren't going to be on the Lannister's side, and who knows how Arienne is gonna to react to fAegon, she has already been shown to be loose cannon so I can almost guarantee she fucks that up.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,257
Are they? So far we have them trying to play all sides with the Lannisters(Myrcella), Dany(Quentyn) and fAegon(Arienne). Quentyn has already died without impacting the plot in any way, Myrcella just got an ear chopped off, so they aren't going to be on the Lannister's side, and who knows how Arienne is gonna to react to fAegon, she has already been shown to be loose cannon so I can almost guarantee she fucks that up.

Dorne is a major player in the 7 kingdoms no matter how you slice it. Show or book it doesn't matter. Dorne has always been a major player in the history of Westeros. From the time Nymeria first landed on the continent to now they have been important to the plot of the story.


Just because the plot surrounding Dorne is bad doesn't mean Dorne is not important.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
Are they? So far we have them trying to play all sides with the Lannisters(Tristain), Dany(Quentyn) and fAegon(Arienne). Quentyn has already died without impacting the plot in any way, Myrcella just got an ear chopped off, so they aren't going to be on the Lannister's side, and who knows how Arienne is gonna to react to fAegon, she has already been shown to be loose cannon so I can almost guarantee she fucks that up.

Arianne will definitly marry Aegon, and likely have her father killed just as in the show.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,114
Thw writers proabaly didnt put too much thought into Sansa/Dany. Another powerful woman that just so happens to be pretty is rolling up in Sansa's stomping grounds and is taking over. The daughter of the man who killed her grandfather and uncle just so happens to get Jon to drop his claim as king. She knows Jon is attracted to her.

It could be more complex and perhaps Bran told her something but I doubt the show is going to spend more time on it than that. The writers probably decided to let the audience take it at face value.
She also withheld critical information that could have outright killed Jon in the battle of the bastards. She's petty, not very intelligent, and apparently fucking hates Jon.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,257
She also withheld critical information that could have outright killed Jon in the battle of the bastards. She's petty, not very intelligent, and apparently fucking hates Jon.

She doesn't hate Jon. We know that already and we have seen it on more than one occasion. Say what you want about her decision making and her behavior, but don't try and question how she feels about Jon or the rest of her family. She trusts him with her life.


Now how she will feel after he reveals he is a Targaryen is another matter entirely.....
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 2802

Community Resetter
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
33,729
Please, ep1 thread title was just lazy...

GOT s08e02 |OT| The Internet is dark and full of Spoilers
tumblr_ovdqgcYbvH1ruwssto1_500.gif
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,114
She doesn't hate Jon. We know that already and we have seen it on more than one occasion. Say what you want about her decision making and her behavior, but don't try and question how she feels about Jon or the rest of her family. She trusts him with her life.


Now how she will feel after he reveals he is a Targaryen is another matter entirely.....
Literally almost got him killed for no real reason.

If she doesn't hate him she's a moron and/or badly written.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,170
She also withheld critical information that could have outright killed Jon in the battle of the bastards. She's petty, not very intelligent, and apparently fucking hates Jon.
It's not like Jon is her favorite character from her favorite TV show that she wants to survive at any/all cost. It's her fake half brother who she barely has any relationship with and her real family is almost entirely dead on misplays that she has gotten to witness. Jon dying at the battle of the bastards would have been like rain falling off her back or no worse than Rickon dying...not something to risk her plans on.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,114
It's not like Jon is her favorite character from her favorite TV show that she wants to survive at any/all cost. It's her fake half brother who she barely has any relationship with and her real family is almost entirely dead on misplays that she has gotten to witness. Jon dying at the battle of the bastards would have been like rain falling off her back or no worse than Rickon dying...
It's one thing to not care about Jon dying, and I just think it's a whole other that she basically trades assured victory over Ramsay, her torturer, for a more shaky outcome that may not end in her favor in order to fuck Jon over.
 

Solaris

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,289
Not even 10 minutes into the episode, it's all doom and gloom, everyone needs to unite to fight the Night King or life will end as we know it..."THIS IS NOT MY QUEEN WHY ARE YOU NOT KING WHAT TITLE DO YOU HOLD WHY DID YOU BEND YOUR KNEE ETC ETC" same old shit of titles and positions with these people.

Wipe them all out.

#teamnightking

Yeah, Night King is all business.

Bran is like "He's got an undead dragon and is beyond the wall we have no time for this"

Jon and Dany like "lol ok let's go fly dragons and fuck in the snow"

Everyone is stupid except Sam
 

steejee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,646
That's what sucked about the LF defeat. Its one of my least favorite things in TV shows where instead of using good writing to make the lead masterfully intelligent they just make people who are supposed to be masterfully intelligent act dumb and then have the lead outwit the halfwit. LFs machinations with Arya and Sansa were several tiers below how he acted in previous seasons.

I think the level of his deceit there was fine. He's in the far north, out of his element, with none of his allies available. He's suspicious of Arya's capabilities but doesn't know she trained as a Faceless Man (or even if she did what that meant). He knows Sansa has gotten more clued in and is angry about Ramsey, but she also called on him for help during the Battle of the Bastards and let him go previously. To him she's still just a clueless girl indebted to him, and their conversations about Arya keep leading him down that path. Sending Brianne off was to clear out one of the people she most trusts.

Basically his arrogance was his undoing - he's played the game in Kings Landing after all and came out on top, why would he fail against a bunch of clueless northerners? In the past he's won because he was able to play the factions of Kings Landing off of each other, but there are no factions in Winterfell. He tried to play the game against a unified group, none of owe him anything or want anything from him, and the moment Sansa says his name instead of Arya he understands he's blown it.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,257
Yeah, Night King is all business.

Bran is like "He's got an undead dragon and is beyond the wall we have no time for this"

Jon and Dany like "lol ok let's go fly dragons and fuck in the snow"

Everyone is stupid except Sam
What are they supposed to do while they wait for the Night King?

They can't take their armies and leave Winterfell. Are they supposed to just sit around and stare at the wall?
 

EN1GMA

Avenger
Nov 7, 2017
3,290
I think the show did an OK job showing that everyone was somewhat busy getting ready for what is to come. Jon riding a dragon is actually good practice for the battle.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,204
What are they supposed to do while they wait for the Night King?

They can't take their armies and leave Winterfell. Are they supposed to just sit around and stare at the wall?
Make preparations. There should be no shortage of things to do to prepare. Projects to oversee. People to inspire and talk to. Especially when half of everyone is sore at you.

Going on a date to have sex and rub your lovey dovey relationship in everyone's face is about the last thing that should be on the docket.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,257
Make preparations. There should be no shortage of things to do to prepare. Projects to oversee. People to inspire and talk to. Especially when half of everyone is sore at you.

Going on a date to have sex and rub your lovey dovey relationship is about the last thing that should be on the docket.
You seriously think that Jon Snow AKA Aegon Targaryen learning to ride a Dragon is not an important thing to prepare for when it comes to the story?
 

EN1GMA

Avenger
Nov 7, 2017
3,290
Make preparations. There should be no shortage of things to do to prepare. Projects to oversee. People to inspire and talk to. Especially when half of everyone is sore at you.

Going on a date to have sex and rub your lovey dovey relationship in everyone's face is about the last thing that should be on the docket.
Only they rubbed it in no ones face since they were secluded. Dany even made mention to it.
 

Solaris

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,289
What are they supposed to do while they wait for the Night King?

They can't take their armies and leave Winterfell. Are they supposed to just sit around and stare at the wall?

Go get that flaky cunt Glover back for one?

I dunno, it just kind of bothered me how basically no one reacted to the news that there's a fucking undead dragon. Including Daenerys. They're just like "k"
 

EN1GMA

Avenger
Nov 7, 2017
3,290
They were in the courtyard making kissy faces at each other while everyone else was working.
They were talking. I don't think the Unsullied and Dothraki are going to look too much into that.

I mean they're two of the leaders and they can be caught talking. They rode into Winterfell side by side.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,257
Why was the scene presented as a cute date instead of a serious battle preparation scene?
Because it's likely that neither of them even know that it's that serious yet.

It's to set up the precedent for Jon being able to do it when the time comes. It's to show us the viewers that he can do it so it doesn't come out of nowhere when it happens. While at the same time showing us that Jon and Dany do love each other and that it wasn't just a fling.
 

EN1GMA

Avenger
Nov 7, 2017
3,290
Dany's army is camping out and set, the dragons are feeding, weapons are being made. I get that they could have shown more urgency but the writers probably wanted to reinforce Dany and Jon's relationship one last time. Right before he learns that he is sleeping with his aunt and is the rightful king.

It is probably one of the few episodes that won't be turned up to 11 at all times.
 

The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,154
Dany's army is camping out and set, the dragons are feeding, weapons are being made. I get that they could have shown more urgency but the writers probably wanted to reinforce Dany and Jon's relationship one last time. Right before he learns that he is sleeping with his aunt and is the rightful king.

It is probably one of the few episodes that won't be turned up to 11 at all times.
he already learned that when Sam told him his father is Rhaegar. But he didn't seem to have a reaction that, only in terms of who should rule was going through his mind since he responds by saying Daenerys is our queen
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,752
Norman, OK
Not even 10 minutes into the episode, it's all doom and gloom, everyone needs to unite to fight the Night King or life will end as we know it..."THIS IS NOT MY QUEEN WHY ARE YOU NOT KING WHAT TITLE DO YOU HOLD WHY DID YOU BEND YOUR KNEE ETC ETC" same old shit of titles and positions with these people.

Wipe them all out.

#teamnightking

TBH- I think it's a pretty accurate portrayal of humanity. Faced with extinction, I could see us spending our waning moments squabbling over titles, money and shit that is about to not matter.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
You can read Sansa two ways:

1- In her first chapter (and through Arya's) she is depicted as someone who doesn't like the north, wants to live in KL and be a princess like in the story books. She doesn't consider Jon her brother, she corrects Arya who calls him their brother by saying "HALF-brother". She is selfish, she doesn't care about being Stark. She says the north is basically a dumb and not worth seeing when Arya says the carriage won't have windows and Arya says it's awesome and she should know if she came with them sometimes out of Winterfell. It goes on like this. You can imagine she hasn't changed, she is just using her people for protection. That she still wants out, she still wants to be queen, and the people of the north are just her support, not her love, and the north itself she could care for little less other than as a place of support. In this case, what she did learn from Littlefinger is to use the north just like he planned to use it, and she is his continuity, acting in her own interest like he acted in his.

2- Or, you can see her as someone who wanted to leave and didn't care for the north or her family much and all the above, but now that she has seen what the "real world" is like she realizes the north is her home, what it means to be a Stark, etc. That she has changed. And what she learned from Littlefinger has not corrupted her, that it just made her smarter/wiser to make her way through the politics without being a pawn.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
I would love if the season turns into massive time jumps, with the initial battle happening either next episode or Episode 3, and like a 5 year time skip showing that the Knight King has basically won and Jon and Co. have basically turned into The Resistance and we get a medieval version of The Terminator war.

Not even 10 minutes into the episode, it's all doom and gloom, everyone needs to unite to fight the Night King or life will end as we know it..."THIS IS NOT MY QUEEN WHY ARE YOU NOT KING WHAT TITLE DO YOU HOLD WHY DID YOU BEND YOUR KNEE ETC ETC" same old shit of titles and positions with these people.

Wipe them all out.

#teamnightking

Almost nobody has seen the army of the dead. People keep making the obvious allegory of humanity and climate change, but it's a very apt one considering the main issue in tackling climate change is both inner political squabbles and international political drama. Until people see the dead, they won't be able to fully grasp it, and until then the only "known" threat is the foreigner who just rode in on a high horse with two massive armies and dragons.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
You think Arienne will marry him? It just seems out of character for her to go along with an arranged marriage.

Arranged? I don't think so, I think she WILL want to marry him, and kill her father to stop being his pawn. I think she orders Myrcella killed to sabotage her father's plans, which pitches the Lannisters against Dorne and ties Dorne to Aegon under her command.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,627
She also withheld critical information that could have outright killed Jon in the battle of the bastards. She's petty, not very intelligent, and apparently fucking hates Jon.
I thought it was clear that she withheld the info to lull Ramsey into acting on his terms and then catching him off-guard. Telling Jon would have changed Jon's battle plan and Ramsey would have countered accordingly to merely dealing with a larger army rather than being blindsided while his forces thought they had achieved victory
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,752
Norman, OK
You can read Sansa two ways:

1- In her first chapter (and through Arya's) she is depicted as someone who doesn't like the north, wants to live in KL and be a princess like in the story books. She doesn't consider Jon her brother, she corrects Arya who calls him their brother by saying "HALF-brother". She is selfish, she doesn't care about being Stark. She says the north is basically a dumb and not worth seeing when Arya says the carriage won't have windows and Arya says it's awesome and she should know if she came with them sometimes out of Winterfell. It goes on like this. You can imagine she hasn't changed, she is just using her people for protection. That she still wants out, she still wants to be queen, and the people of the north are just her support, not her love, and the north itself she could care for little less other than as a place of support. In this case, what she did learn from Littlefinger is to use the north just like he planned to use it, and she is his continuity, acting in her own interest like he acted in his.

2- Or, you can see her as someone who wanted to leave and didn't care for the north or her family much and all the above, but now that she has seen what the "real world" is like she realizes the north is her home, what it means to be a Stark, etc. That she has changed. And what she learned from Littlefinger has not corrupted her, that it just made her smarter/wiser to make her way through the politics without being a pawn.

I see her more as #2 above, but I also still agree with (show) Jon- she's not as smart as she thinks she is.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
I would love if the season turns into massive time jumps, with the initial battle happening either next episode or Episode 3, and like a 5 year time skip showing that the Knight King has basically won and Jon and Co. have basically turned into The Resistance and we get a medieval version of The Terminator war.



Almost nobody has seen the army of the dead. People keep making the obvious allegory of humanity and climate change, but it's a very apt one considering the main issue in tackling climate change is both inner political squabbles and international political drama. Until people see the dead, they won't be able to fully grasp it, and until then the only "known" threat is the foreigner who just rode in on a high horse with two massive armies and dragons.
This is seriously one of the most pathetic excuses that keeps getting paraded around. Like are you people serious that Sansa is ignoring her psychic brother and her king, and that they brought the largets army in the world with dragons there just to hangout? Being that ignorant of whats actually coming and not being able to conceptualize whats happening when everyone is telling you and showing you what a big deal it is, is the sign of a stupid character.
 

Mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,577
Dany's army is camping out and set, the dragons are feeding, weapons are being made. I get that they could have shown more urgency but the writers probably wanted to reinforce Dany and Jon's relationship one last time. Right before he learns that he is sleeping with his aunt and is the rightful king.

It is probably one of the few episodes that won't be turned up to 11 at all times.
This very much felt like a set up episode for things to come, with only 5 left it can't be long until things get crazy.
 

steejee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,646
Worth pointing out that Dany/Jon only visited the Dragons in the first place because as they were walking the army grounds her riders came to tell her the Dragons weren't eating. It was an impromptu thing and explicitly a callback to Jon and the cave with Ygritte - a "Lets leave this pain and misery and just hide in peace". That being said the flight was a little...goofy...but Jon and Dany vanishing for a few hours isn't going to make or break the war prep.

This is seriously one of the most pathetic excuses that keeps getting paraded around. Like are you people serious that Sansa is ignoring her psychic brother and her king, and that they brought the largets army in the world with dragons there just to hangout? Being that ignorant of whats actually coming and not being able to conceptualize whats happening when everyone is telling you and showing you what a big deal it is, is the sign of a stupid character.

Sansa's not ignoring Bran or Jon, she's trying to argue for steps to preserve the unity of the North in the face of what's coming. The common people *don't* understand what's coming, nor do most of the northern lords. The Nights Watch and Wildlings (who are all at the wall still but heading to Winterfell now) understand, but they're not the common folk of the North. No one besides them has ever seen a White Walker or even a Wight. So they may believe the lords that the White Walkers are coming, but that's still abstract to them while foreign invader queen with eunich and savage army is staring them in the face.

Jon is right in that they need to unify, but Jon is also a lovable fool who was already stabbed to death by his own men because he thinks everyone is able to see what he sees. Sansa is trying to get through to his thick head that you can't just keep appealing to the greater good when it comes to the people who've bled and died specifically for you and the North.
 
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Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
This is seriously one of the most pathetic excuses that keeps getting paraded around. Like are you people serious that Sansa is ignoring her psychic brother and her king, and that they brought the largets army in the world with dragons there just to hangout? Being that ignorant of whats actually coming and not being able to conceptualize whats happening when everyone is telling you and showing you what a big deal it is, is the sign of a stupid character.

Did you not notice the entire room full of lesser houses who Jon/Sansa are trying to get to fight along side Danny?

You may not remember, but the last time anyone in the North had to deal with a Targaryen was when Robert launched an insurrection against the Crown and the Mad King made a few pile of ashes from prominent Northern men.

Not to mention, again, that Danny and her army + dragons are going to suck their winter rations dry and basically starve everyone to death if they stick around. So yes, it's not shocking that there is major apprehensions with Jon rescinding his title of King in the North and some rando lady who is the direct relative of the Mad King.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Worth pointing out that Dany/Jon only visited the Dragons in the first place because as they were walking the army grounds her riders came to tell her the Dragons weren't eating. It was an impromptu thing and explicitly a callback to Jon and the cave with Ygritte - a "Lets leave this pain and misery and just hide in peace". That being said the flight was a little...goofy...but Jon and Dany vanishing for a few hours isn't going to make or break the war prep.



Sansa's not ignoring Bran, she's trying to argue for steps to preserve the unity of the North in the face of what's coming. The common people *don't* understand what's coming. The Nights Watch and Wildlings (who are all at the wall still but heading to Winterfell now) understand, but they're not the common folk of the North. No one besides them has ever seen a White Walker or even a Wight. So they may believe the lords that the White Walkers are coming, but that's still abstract to them while foreign invader queen with eunich and savage army is staring them in the face.

Jon is right in that they need to unify, but Jon is also a lovable fool who was already stabbed to death by his own men because he thinks everyone is able to see what he sees.
Did you not notice the entire room full of lesser houses who Jon/Sansa are trying to get to fight along side Danny?

You may not remember, but the last time anyone in the North had to deal with a Targaryen was when Robert launched an insurrection against the Crown and the Mad King made a few pile of ashes from prominent Northern men.
This literally does not matter right now. At all. The north is just as stupid as Sansa is and honestly if I'm Dany and next episode they want to start being ungrateful for my help I'm taking leave and letting them handle the walkers on their own. Lets see how fast they drop the "We WaNt JoN tO bE kInG" schtick.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
This literally does not matter right now. At all. The north is just as stupid as Sansa is and honestly if I'm Dany and next episode they want to start being ungrateful for my help I'm taking leave and letting them handle the walkers on their own. Lets see how fast they drop the "We WaNt JoN tO bE kInG" schtick.

rofl, what are you talking about, of course it fucking matters.

The entire point of the last few seasons was to get everyone fighting together in order to stand a chance. If the North splits and houses start taking their ball and going home then everything Jon has done would have been pointless.

You're the one ignoring the very clear and blatant context of the events happening in the story.
 
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AzorAhai

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,635
I know Sam is typically soft-hearted, but he was wildly out of character in this episode for cheap drama. His family are all serial child abusers and deserved worse than dragonfire.

Some criticism here is really stupid. You don't understand that family is important for some people even with all its flaws ? He has every right to be sad about his father's death, even if he was terrible. Even more so for his brother, as he respected him, and Dickon wasn't anything like their father. Nothing « out of character », damn.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,752
Norman, OK
...Not to mention, again, that Danny and her army + dragons are going to suck their winter rations dry and basically starve everyone to death if they stick around...

Kinda' felt like the writers missed an opportunity when Sansa brought this up, though:

Jon: "Not really going to be a problem here in a couple of days, sis. We're about to have a whole lot less mouths to feed around here."

Davos: (Shaking head) "Fewer."
 

Punished Goku

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,953
Sophie literally got a small tattoo that says "the pack survives" so I'm absolutely certain that we're done with Stark deaths.
Did she really?
"You gave up your crown to save your people... would she do the same?" Jon knew the answer. It was the perfect illustration of why Jon is the true King. He never sought titles, he only rose to do what needed to be done when it was asked of him. Remember what Varys says about Littlefinger? That he'd see the realm burn if he could be king of the ashes? I don't think that's quite an accurate way to describe Dany, but if it came down to her crown or her people, I cannot confidently say she would choose the latter.
Yep. Dany ain't gonna give up that Crown.
 

MadLaughter

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,101
Honestly, I thought that the anti-Dany stuff was going to be lame, but "Would she do the same?" hit me like a plot twist, showing me how blind I'd been.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
"You gave up your crown to save your people... would she do the same?" Jon knew the answer. It was the perfect illustration of why Jon is the true King. He never sought titles, he only rose to do what needed to be done when it was asked of him. Remember what Varys says about Littlefinger? That he'd see the realm burn if he could be king of the ashes? I don't think that's quite an accurate way to describe Dany, but if it came down to her crown or her people, I cannot confidently say she would choose the latter.

Given what we have seen of Danny, I think she would absolutely rather be Queen of ashes than to give up her self proclaimed rightful title.

Perhaps not something she would say directly, but her actions of not wanting to ever give up the chance to be Queen would directly cause such destruction.

Which I think was very much prophesied in her vision of Kings Landing in ruin and the Throne Room covered in snow/ash.
 

steejee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,646
Given what we have seen of Danny, I think she would absolutely rather be Queen of ashes than to give up her self proclaimed rightful title.

Perhaps not something she would say directly, but her actions of not wanting to ever give up the chance to be Queen would directly cause such destruction.

Which I think was very much prophesied in her vision of Kings Landing in ruin and the Throne Room covered in snow/ash.

It is possible the culmination of the vision, seeing Sam's reaction to his brother's death, Jon, remembering her own declaration of 'The Wheel' et al will lead to a self reckoning moment. So I guess we'll reach a point where she's forced to turn one way (the Crown at all costs) or another (give up her kingdom for the good of those she would rule) that could go either way. I feel like that moment has to come during the White Walker invasion, rather than after it (if she survives).

Then again for all this just marrying Jon basically negates the problem - it's almost *too* good a solution since it basically fixes every political conflict save for Cersei.
 

Amibguous Cad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,033
Some criticism here is really stupid. You don't understand that family is important for some people even with all its flaws ? He has every right to be sad about his father's death, even if he was terrible. Even more so for his brother, as he respected him, and Dickon wasn't anything like their father. Nothing « out of character », damn.

You must be quite upset, if you were willing to quote a post from 20 pages back just to insult them.

Sam being sad that his father died is perfectly in character. Sam -only- being sad about it is an intentional simplification of his character in order to produce temporary pathos at the expense of long-term characterization.

If you showed that scene to someone who had never seen GoT before, they wouldn't even have an inkling that the relationship was anything but a happy, functioning family. Sam isn't conflicted? Not even a little, when he first hears it before he thought better of his reaction? Everyone responds to grief differently, but people with abusive parents often report mixed feelings when those parents die. To not even mention it is just baffling.

Well, I mean, not so baffling. The plot needs the execution of the Tarlys to be unmitigatedly atrocious to paint Daenerys in a negative light. And if I come to Game of Thrones for anything, it's for a simple narrative of good and evil as opposed to nuanced characterization and shades of gray.
 

Burt

Fight Sephiroth or end video games
Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,173
This is seriously one of the most pathetic excuses that keeps getting paraded around. Like are you people serious that Sansa is ignoring her psychic brother and her king, and that they brought the largets army in the world with dragons there just to hangout? Being that ignorant of whats actually coming and not being able to conceptualize whats happening when everyone is telling you and showing you what a big deal it is, is the sign of a stupid character.
Yes.

Yes.

It ain't that complicated, people. And I'm not just talking about Sansa. Everyone's in here justifying their own running tally to assign Smart Points to each character and judging their actions against that value, but ThatsNotHowAnyOfThisWorks.jpeg. Sansa's being icy with Danaerys for the same reason Arya's being vaguely Italian-mob-family-threatening with Jon for the same reason she was 100% absolutely about to cut Sansa's face off last season for the same reason Sam is creating an extinction-inducing legitimacy struggle for the same reason Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale for the same reason Dany roasted the Tarly's and Tyrion bought Cersei's big dumb obvious lie and so on and so forth and so on and so forth.

It's just about creating "drama". The writers decided on their end goals and wrote backwards from there. Combing over 7+ seasons and coming in with a "But..." every time there's something inconsistent or dumb is missing the point, because the show isn't written by building up from a solid base, it's written reaching down from the desired conclusion for a single point to grasp onto. Arya being primed to cut Sansa's face off wasn't the culmination of her experiences and development as a character, it was "Arya's a cold-blooded killer now and we need some drama, so, uh, she used to sister-fight with Sansa so now she might kill her."

That's the entire show in a nutshell. It isn't even that any of the characters are actually stupid, it's just that it's all from the JJ Abrams School of Is It Delightful, except really not even as good. Trying to attribute consistent long-term development to these characters -- as opposed to acknowledging that these characters are only and exactly whatever the writers want them to be at any particular moment so long as they have the thinnest of justification -- is going to have this thread running circles around itself for the next two months. The points, and counterpoints, and counter-counterpoints are all there, because the writers weren't prioritizing creating a sound whole, they just needed a single avenue towards their desired end.
 
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