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jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
rofl, what are you talking about, of course it fucking matters.

The entire point of the last few seasons was to get everyone fighting together in order to stand a chance. If the North splits and houses start taking their ball and going home then everything Jon has done would have been pointless.

You're the one ignoring the very clear and blatant context of the events happening in the story.
No it doesn't matter. If the houses don't want to coalesce then they can die, simple as that. Dany doesn't need them to defeat Cersi or the white walkers so really the only party here that has anything to lose by quibbling over titles are the northerners. Yes it would be pointless, which is why its stupid that any of these people are wasting time bickering and forcing us through petty drama that doesn't matter over who is king and what title belongs where when theyre about to be entirely wiped out and the only thing saving them, Dany, theyre choosing to rebuke. Again, Dany should let them die fighting the white walkers for being so moronic and then send a raven asking how worrying about titles is going for them. Theyre all morons fighting over issues that don't matter. If the north doesn't want to coalesce thats fine they can die alone like all the other northerners on this show.

Nightking kill them all.
 

Tawpgun

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,861
Man, show favorite Tyrion really fell off in recent seasons huh. He peaked when he killed his dad now he just seems useless and would not be surprised if he gets killed off soon
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
My adventures of waiting until the Season Finale to watch the episodes are being tested by youtube's algorithm that can't seem to take a hint. I wonder if this even do anything.

sSBwI6b.jpg
 

CopperPuppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,636
Man, show favorite Tyrion really fell off in recent seasons huh. He peaked when he killed his dad now he just seems useless and would not be surprised if he gets killed off soon
Post-S4 they've done to him the same thing they've done to several other characters: turn them into an expressionless bore that speaks in quips and one-liners.
 

TheRagnCajun

Member
Oct 29, 2017
590
You can read Sansa two ways:

1- In her first chapter (and through Arya's) she is depicted as someone who doesn't like the north, wants to live in KL and be a princess like in the story books. She doesn't consider Jon her brother, she corrects Arya who calls him their brother by saying "HALF-brother". She is selfish, she doesn't care about being Stark. She says the north is basically a dumb and not worth seeing when Arya says the carriage won't have windows and Arya says it's awesome and she should know if she came with them sometimes out of Winterfell. It goes on like this. You can imagine she hasn't changed, she is just using her people for protection. That she still wants out, she still wants to be queen, and the people of the north are just her support, not her love, and the north itself she could care for little less other than as a place of support. In this case, what she did learn from Littlefinger is to use the north just like he planned to use it, and she is his continuity, acting in her own interest like he acted in his.

2- Or, you can see her as someone who wanted to leave and didn't care for the north or her family much and all the above, but now that she has seen what the "real world" is like she realizes the north is her home, what it means to be a Stark, etc. That she has changed. And what she learned from Littlefinger has not corrupted her, that it just made her smarter/wiser to make her way through the politics without being a pawn.


Its number 2.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
If it didn't make it into the show then it doesn't count. You can't include deleted scenes and then expect the audience to know better.

It was cut and therefore it doesn't matter. So no thats not how it happened.

Their season 7 scripts which are the fully canon version make it clear that Arya and Sansa were fooled by Littlefinger.

Sansa only caught on by the end when LF was implying that Arya might kill her to become Winterfell and Sansa knew Arya never wanted to become Lady of Winterfell.

(That's the moment she goes to Bran in a deleted scene to tell her about LF)
 

Chitown B

Member
Nov 15, 2017
9,618
That's exactly the issue I have with the show now though. There's no effort to even make it interesting, especially after Theon was making a big deal of having to rescue Yara in last season's finale. It took him longer to fight that prick and convince his men to rescue her than the actual act of saving her did.

I get that there's limited time but it doesn't make it any better to watch because they decided to rush the ending. The difference in pacing to the early seasons continues to be extremely jarring to me.

Yup.
 

Xpike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,676
Man, show favorite Tyrion really fell off in recent seasons huh. He peaked when he killed his dad now he just seems useless and would not be surprised if he gets killed off soon
just like any character once they didnt have book to copy
or in some characters cases, completely ignore the book for plots that make them actively less interesting (jamie)
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
No it doesn't matter. If the houses don't want to coalesce then they can die, simple as that. Dany doesn't need them to defeat Cersi or the white walkers so really the only party here that has anything to lose by quibbling over titles are the northerners. Yes it would be pointless, which is why its stupid that any of these people are wasting time bickering and forcing us through petty drama that doesn't matter over who is king and what title belongs where when theyre about to be entirely wiped out and the only thing saving them, Dany, theyre choosing to rebuke. Again, Dany should let them die fighting the white walkers for being so moronic and then send a raven asking how worrying about titles is going for them. Theyre all morons fighting over issues that don't matter. If the north doesn't want to coalesce thats fine they can die alone like all the other northerners on this show.

Nightking kill them all.

I believe that point that "if they don't want to coalesce then they can die" is inherently the point that Jon is attempting to prevent.

You're viewing these issues from the omnipotent view point of the viewer who knows information and the overall stakes that most of the characters in the world do not.

The entire point of the show was the inherent pointless political fighting that will seem pointless and meaningless in the face of the force of nature that is the army of the dead. This is not bad writing inherently, this has been one of the pillar themes. It's not shocking that even on the eve of destruction people are still fighting over titles and namesakes and holding onto generation old traditions/oaths/grudges.

We know this because Jon is one of the only characters who fully recognizes this threat and has zero power fantasy to muddy his vision. You keep bringing Danny up, but the only reason she is helping Jon is because he is her key to having a united and loyal North. Sam already pointed out her choices are in no way altruistic, she is working under the same clouded vision the Northern houses are, she has the post-End Game on her mind, where Jon's only view and energy is going to the issue at hand because he fully understands it's all that actually matters.

So yes, it's frustrating if you expect everyone to work together, but this is inherently human nature to still have petty issues on the mind while facing down the possible calamity that will bring the end of civilization. In the ironic twist, Jon is the one who doesn't seem capable of understanding this, which was the entire reason he was killed as Lord Commander.

The show has set up these issues years ago and the plot and themes very much support the idea of multiple armies/houses/kings/queens all intersecting in one place to not exactly go swimmingly.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Its a combination of her making bad decisions and bad writing. We already know she doesn't hate Jon. We know she is willing to trust him with her life.


Pretending otherwise is just stupid.

Actually, Sansa doesn't trust Jon. It's been repeated over and over again. It's one reason that she doesn't tell him about the Vale army and it's also why she almost leads a coup against him when she hears about Jon bending the knee.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 2802

Community Resetter
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
33,729
TBH- I think it's a pretty accurate portrayal of humanity. Faced with extinction, I could see us spending our waning moments squabbling over titles, money and shit that is about to not matter.
I can totally see people going up to the WW asking them to convert to a religion, if they are interested in MLM products, actual YOLO pics, White Walker touch challenges.
 

Tawpgun

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,861
Also does Dany know the dragon is undead?

If I recall, she just saw it was killed. Only Tormund/Beric and friends know about it.

I can't remember if Bran told anyone
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
Yea, but did anyone inform Danny the little shit is omnipotent?

I don't actually remember anyone establishing to any of our characters he is the TER
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,309
Actually, Sansa doesn't trust Jon. It's been repeated over and over again. It's one reason that she doesn't tell him about the Vale army and it's also why she almost leads a coup against him when she hears about Jon bending the knee.
She told Brienne to leave her side after being truly safe for the first time in years and go speak to the Blackfish because she trusted Jon to keep her safe and knew he wouldn't let anything happen to her. It was her that convinced Jon to rise up and take back Winterfell because she knew he could pull it off. And then once he was declared King in The North she stood by him and handled the preparations at Winterfell.

She may have her criticisms of him and his decisions, but when it comes down to it she has shown that despite all of it she does in fact trust him.
 

Tawpgun

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,861
They mention it this episode
He told her this episode

Then yeah, add this to the list of "Characters not reacting to huge news the way you think they should"


Yea, but did anyone inform Danny the little shit is omnipotent?

I don't actually remember anyone establishing to any of our characters he is the TER
Bran has mentioned what he us a few times but everyone kinda ignores him

Man these last 2 seasons need time to BREATHE
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,101
She told Brienne to leave her side after being truly safe for the first time in years and go speak to the Blackfish because she trusted Jon to keep her safe and knew he wouldn't let anything happen to her. It was her that convinced Jon to rise up and take back Winterfell because she knew he could pull it off.

She may have her criticisms of him and his decisions, but when it comes down to it she has shown that despite all of it she does in fact trust him.

Sansa is mostly just worried that Jon's principles have been blinded by his relationship with Dany. I don't even think she distrusts him as much as she just wants him to see clearly.
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
Sansa is mostly just worried that Jon's principles have been blinded by his relationship with Dany. I don't even think she distrusts him as much as she just wants him to see clearly.

Yup. Though "clearly" is definitely skewed towards distrust of all that aren't Stark and to some extent The North in her view.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
Then yeah, add this to the list of "Characters not reacting to huge news the way you think they should"



Bran has mentioned what he us a few times but everyone kinda ignores him

Man these last 2 seasons need time to BREATHE

"The little creepy fuck keeps telling me he is the Three Eyed Raven"

"Do you believe him?"

"Believe a cripple? Ha! I think the fall did more than just take his legs away"
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,101
Yup. Though "clearly" is definitely skewed towards distrust of all that aren't Stark and to some extent The North in her view.

Right. She wants him to see things her way, and she wants to make sure he isn't thinking with his dick instead of his brain. I imagine if he was making the same moves he's making now but Dany wasn't involved she wouldn't be quite as frustrated with him.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
She told Brienne to leave her side after being truly safe for the first time in years and go speak to the Blackfish because she trusted Jon to keep her safe and knew he wouldn't let anything happen to her. It was her that convinced Jon to rise up and take back Winterfell because she knew he could pull it off. And then once he was declared King in The North she stood by him and handled the preparations at Winterfell.

She may have her criticisms of him and his decisions, but when it comes down to it she has shown that despite all of it she does in fact trust him.

Sansa tells Brienne that she trusts Jon with her life and then Brienne asks her why she didn't tell Jon about Littlefinger then and then it's kind of played like it's a revelation for her.

Also Sansa was upset that Jon became king over her
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,309
Right. She wants him to see things her way, and she wants to make sure he isn't thinking with his dick instead of his brain. I imagine if he was making the same moves he's making now but Dany wasn't involved she wouldn't be quite as frustrated with him.
Yeah but that still doesn't explain her open hostility toward Dany. Sansa has for years shown the ability to keep her emotions in check and say what she needs to say. Even to those who have done horrible things to her and her family.

Dany has done nothing to her at all and yet Sansa seems to barely be able to be in the same room as her. It's just so out of character. Sansa is smart enough to know that for better or worse Dany is there to save the North and yet she can't string two nice sentences together at her. It's just weird.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,101
Yeah but that still doesn't explain her open hostility toward Dany. Sansa has for years shown the ability to keep her emotions in check and say what she needs to say. Even to those who have done horrible things to her and her family.

Dany has done nothing to her at all and yet Sansa seems to barely be able to be in the same room as her. It's just so out of character. Sansa is smart enough to know that for better or worse Dany is there to save the North and yet she can't string two nice sentences together at her. It's just weird.

Yeah. That's my biggest issue. The character who's been the best at putting up with less than ideal situations is suddenly reduced to a spiteful crow whenever another woman in power is in the room? If she pulled shit like that with Cersei she would've been drowned or thrown off the roof of the Red Keep in five seconds flat.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Yeah but that still doesn't explain her open hostility toward Dany. Sansa has for years shown the ability to keep her emotions in check and say what she needs to say. Even to those who have done horrible things to her and her family.

Dany has done nothing to her at all and yet Sansa seems to barely be able to be in the same room as her. It's just so out of character. Sansa is smart enough to know that for better or worse Dany is there to save the North and yet she can't string two nice sentences together at her. It's just weird.

Well:

Sophie Turner: Sansa this season is very much enjoying becoming a leader in her own right and the leader of Winterfell, and this year there are certain challenges of people who come into her life that threaten that. She has to go behind a few backs and risks tearing apart her family."

Sophie:"Her [Sansa's] relationship with Jon [Snow] is struggling because he's so clearly in love with Daenerys and believes in her completely. Sansa thinks she's power-hungry and not the rightful queen. There's a huge amount of fighting between Sansa and Jon."[/quote{
 

rashbeep

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,480
Yes.

Yes.

It ain't that complicated, people. And I'm not just talking about Sansa. Everyone's in here justifying their own running tally to assign Smart Points to each character and judging their actions against that value, but ThatsNotHowAnyOfThisWorks.jpeg. Sansa's being icy with Danaerys for the same reason Arya's being vaguely Italian-mob-family-threatening with Jon for the same reason she was 100% absolutely about to cut Sansa's face off last season for the same reason Sam is creating an extinction-inducing legitimacy struggle for the same reason Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale for the same reason Dany roasted the Tarly's and Tyrion bought Cersei's big dumb obvious lie and so on and so forth and so on and so forth.

It's just about creating "drama". The writers decided on their end goals and wrote backwards from there. Combing over 7+ seasons and coming in with a "But..." every time there's something inconsistent or dumb is missing the point, because the show isn't written by building up from a solid base, it's written reaching down from the desired conclusion for a single point to grasp onto. Arya being primed to cut Sansa's face off wasn't the culmination of her experiences and development as a character, it was "Arya's a cold-blooded killer now and we need some drama, so, uh, she used to sister-fight with Sansa so now she might kill her."

That's the entire show in a nutshell. It isn't even that any of the characters are actually stupid, it's just that it's all from the JJ Abrams School of Is It Delightful, except really not even as good. Trying to attribute consistent long-term development to these characters -- as opposed to acknowledging that these characters are only and exactly whatever the writers want them to be at any particular moment so long as they have the thinnest of justification -- is going to have this thread running circles around itself for the next two months. The points, and counterpoints, and counter-counterpoints are all there, because the writers weren't prioritizing creating a sound whole, they just needed a single avenue towards their desired end.

couldn't agree more
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
Yeah but that still doesn't explain her open hostility toward Dany. Sansa has for years shown the ability to keep her emotions in check and say what she needs to say. Even to those who have done horrible things to her and her family.

Dany has done nothing to her at all and yet Sansa seems to barely be able to be in the same room as her. It's just so out of character. Sansa is smart enough to know that for better or worse Dany is there to save the North and yet she can't string two nice sentences together at her. It's just weird.

Sansa is treating her that way because Dany's ultimate goal is to rule over all of Westeros and after going through what she's been through, Sansa doesn't trust anyone that isn't a Stark to rule over The North.

Think of how one might react towards a new Co-Worker they have to train who will ultimately be their boss when previously they didn't *need* a boss. Civility will only hold because the trainer wants to keep that job. But in this case, the only threat to the The North losing their newly won Sovereignty is Dany. The combined forces either win and then comes the struggle between The North and those that want to rule them or they lose and it doesn't matter. Why then, should she be civil?
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,309
Yeah. That's my biggest issue. The character who's been the best at putting up with less than ideal situations is suddenly reduced to a spiteful crow whenever another woman in power is in the room? If she pulled shit like that with Cersei she would've been drowned or thrown off the roof of the Red Keep in five seconds flat.
Exactly.

I said it a page or two ago, but it's like they skipped a plotline. Like in the books at this point in the story Sansa will hate Dany for some reason and her disliking Dany will be a key plot point. But the books will have the time to properly explain why. Whereas the show is in a timecrunch and doesn't have the time to properly lay out the reasoning. But they still need Sansa to dislike Dany for plot reasons so the just shoehorned it in.

Because when you take a step back and look at Sansa from the last 7 Seasons and then see Sansa from this episode it just doesn't match up. It's like we missed something.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,188
I mean the "open hostility" at this point was just a comment or two and maybe a skeptical glance. I don't think there is any more too it than that, especially with the looming threat presumably showing up in the next episode that's going to resolve all of this. It didn't seem completely out of character or anything to me. It doesn't even seem like there is beef between the two.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,309
Sansa is treating her that way because Dany's ultimate goal is to rule over all of Westeros and after going through what she's been through, Sansa doesn't trust anyone that isn't a Stark to rule over The North.

Think of how one might react towards a new Co-Worker they have to train who will ultimately be their boss when previously they didn't *need* a boss. Civility will only hold because the trainer wants to keep that job. But in this case, the only threat to the The North losing their newly won Sovereignty is Dany. The combined forces either win and then comes the struggle between The North and those that want to rule them or they lose and it doesn't matter. Why then, should she be civil?
Why? Because she has almost always been civil literally every step of the way of her character arc. She has been civil to the very worst people in her very worst moments and yet she all of a suddenly can't fake a smile for someone trying to save her home and her people?


It's fine for her to have doubts. It's fine for her to have suspicions. But it's the outright pettiness and hostility that doesn't make sense. They could have easily allowed Sansa to dislike Dany and speak against her to Jon while still allowing her to act like an adult towards Dany.


I said it before but it's like they purposely threw out subtlety in favor of getting "Ooooooo's" out of the audience when Sansa and Dany are being snarky to each other.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,188
Why? Because she has almost always been civil literally every step of the way of her character arc. She has been civil to the very worst people in her very worst moments and yet she all of a suddenly can't fake a smile for someone trying to save her home and her people?


It's fine for her to have doubts. It's fine for her to have suspicions. But it's the outright pettiness and hostility that doesn't make sense. They could have easily allowed Sansa to dislike Dany and speak against her to Jon while still allowing her to act like an adult towards Dany.


I said it before but it's like they purposely threw out subtlety in favor of getting "Ooooooo's" out of the audience when Sansa and Dany are being snarky to each other.
What are your examples of outright pettiness and hostility? I just saw suspicion and skepticism.
 

ryseing

Bought courtside tickets just to read a book.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,546
For lovers
I also think part of it is that Sansa needs to reassure the North/Vale that she isn't completely on board with Dany either, hence her lack of restraint.

Was the "courtesy is a woman's weapon" bit in the show?
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,309
What are your examples of outright pettiness and hostility? I just saw suspicion and skepticism.
Are you kidding? From the moment Jon and Dany rode into the courtyard Sansa started giving Dany dirty looks. Then the blantantly sarcastic "Winterfell is yours" line. They even make it a point to show Danys reaction to the words to show the viewer that yeah Dany notices the distaste as well. The comments about her army. The comments about her Dragons. And then they make a point to have Dany tell Jon that she knows Sansa doesn't like her and is being intentionally disrespectful.

This isn't just something I made up. It was one of the main plotlines of the episode. Sansa is showing open dislike for Dany despite everything Dany has done and is continuing to do for the North.
 
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Rand a. Thor

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
10,213
Greece
The Bran and Jaime bit is likely gonna be the first 5 minutes of the next episode before Jaime's (probably literal) Trial by Fire, but who gives a fuck. That was the most hype ending in ages, Bran has that man shook. Probably more shook than he would be facing White Walkers. And the way it was telegraphed, pure GRR Martin right there. In general the season is off to a good start, not great but good enough. Drogon's approval of Targaryen incest was fucking hilarious too, for him its like everything is right in the world.
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
Why? Because she has almost always been civil literally every step of the way of her character arc. She has been civil to the very worst people in her very worst moments and yet she all of a suddenly can't fake a smile for someone trying to save her home and her people?


It's fine for her to have doubts. It's fine for her to have suspicions. But it's the outright pettiness and hostility that doesn't make sense. They could have easily allowed Sansa to dislike Dany and speak against her to Jon while still allowing her to act like an adult towards Dany.


I said it before but it's like they purposely threw out subtlety in favor of getting "Ooooooo's" out of the audience when Sansa and Dany are being snarky to each other.

Not every step. Her actions in the end with Ramsay and Littlefinger were the final steps of Sansa's transformation to who we saw in this latest episode. She's no longer willing to bite her tongue and play polite, especially not in the seat of her power. She isn't outright starting war with Dany but she's also not going to play the demure host to her Queen. Dany is not the rightful Queen in Sansa's eyes and Sansa has no wish to have anyone that isn't a Stark hold power over her. Ceremonial or not. She won't even hold her tongue or take a step back with Jon when she feels he's wrong, as showcased in the Battle of the Bastards.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,518
Dallas, TX
Are you kidding? From the moment Jon and Dany rode into the courtyard Sansa started giving Dany dirty looks. Then the blantantly sarcastic "Winterfell is yours" line. They even make it a point to show Danys reaction to the words to show the viewer that yeah Dany notices the distaste as well. The comments about her army. The comments about her Dragons. And then they make a point to have Dany tell Jon that she knows Sansa doesn't like her and is being intentionally disrespectful.

This isn't just something I made up. It was one of the main plotlines of the episode. Sansa is showing open dislike for Dany despite everything Dany has done and is continuing to do for the North.

Sansa's distaste for Dany is just her way of making clear to Jon how much she disapproves of how he's handled the situation. Jon is right that he ultimately had to give in to Dany for the good of everyone, but Sansa is pretty justified in being upset that he didn't drive a harder bargain. He gave Dany everything she wanted, without securing any concessions in exchange, and she's right that a good amount of that probably is him just thinking with his dick. He could have gotten some sort of deal getting special privileges for the North, recognizing his title as king even if it's a subservient king, etc, or tying the alliance to a marriage agreement, and it would've saved face that he wouldn't be having to waste time fending off Lady Mormont's accusations or losing Lord Glover. If the Northerners ever find out that Theon and Yara managed to negotiate independence in exchange for some boats, they'll be pretty right to see Jon as having sold them out for nothing. And she is right to take offense to some of Dany's imperiousness, when Dany is going around making sure everyone's aware the dragons will eat whatever Northern livestock they like and ya'll better be grateful for it.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
Is Bran going to warg into Jaime to get to Cersei and kill her? >_>

Bran always wanted to be a knight.

The Valonquar. The little brother. Bran?
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
Is Bran going to warg into Jaime to get to Cersei and kill her? >_>

Bran always wanted to be a knight.

The Valonquar. The little brother. Bran?
I'd be down for it.

If Bran is just Prophecy Bot 9000 the whole time until he pulls some time travel shenanigans at the end, I'll be bummed. Give him something tangible and immediate to do.
 
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