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Prime2

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,338
I don't recall any console manufacturers doing this at all. Unless I'm mistaken Tflops seemed to only be about PC gaming only. Any evidence of this anywhere?

Right I don't ever recall any console manufacturers ever doing this, resolutions yes but that's about it. Not even bragging about frame rates.

From the PS4 reveal https://segmentnext.com/2016/10/21/mark-playstation-4-pro-8-4-teraflops/

https://wccftech.com/mark-cerny-8-tflops-native-4k/

Just a casual search finds a mutitude of articles.

Look up the PS4 pro the fact it was 4.2 to 1.8 was a big point they talked about as an improvement.
 

Kenzodielocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,871
Nobody will deny that Sony went with a faster raw speed SSD, but it seems that people just ignore the fact that the Xbox Series X architecture team called their SSD I/O 'Velocity Architecture' the "soul" of their system and have repeatedly talked about how that was a huge focus for them from the beginning too. They obviously must feel that they accomplish game changing design and other things with lesser raw speed in their architecture, as they sure didn't just crank up the other specs and call it a day on the SSD I/O based on their own words and specs.
So what? PS5 has decompression as well.
 

Alyna

Banned
Apr 3, 2020
104
User Banned (permanent): platform warring, actioned 4 different times for platform warring in 100 posts
but things like developer preference and earlier access to PS5 dev kits that even Jeff noted can definitely be part of the praise here too.

In the Long run, this is actually a bad thing. This might explain why the PS5 is so underpowered. And has much less power and - potentially, if rumors are true - less features than XSX, like no VRS, VRR, worse ray tracing etc.
and it would also explain why they had to overclock the PS5 so damn much, to close the gap.
 

NineTailSage

Member
Jan 26, 2020
1,449
Hidden Leaf
I seriously don´t get it. XSX looks like a beast on paper and nobody says shit about it, all I read are words about how good PS5 is. I guess the SSD is way a bigger deal than we think.

Probably NDA's, if you remember right before The Game Awards all of the information we heard tidbits about were PS5 and the rumors were all about how far behind Sony Microsoft were. TGA's came though and they revealed the whole console design of Series X and showed a game in development. So developers may have felt that way because Microsoft were probably prioritizing dev-kits to inhouse studios first and foremost, as well to keep leaks to a minimum. I do believe at that time developers were being told to target XboxOne X specs or something like that, which really made it seem not that impressive...
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,075
From the PS4 reveal https://segmentnext.com/2016/10/21/mark-playstation-4-pro-8-4-teraflops/

https://wccftech.com/mark-cerny-8-tflops-native-4k/

Just a casual search finds a mutitude of articles.

Look up the PS4 pro the fact it was 4.2 to 1.8 was a big point they talked about as an improvement.
This is just talking specs. Not a selling point or even touting it more along the lines of speaking on a part of what the device is capable of from
That perspective which is something the lead architect would talk about. Most of the marketing has been about resolution.
 

bcatwilly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,483
So what? PS5 has decompression as well.

I never said that the PS5 SSD I/O isn't objectively stronger from what we know right now, as they seem to have really prioritized that even more. But there are comments in this thread talking about Xbox screwing up or not listening as much to devs and such, which is just flat out way off the mark based on their own architectural emphasis and discussion of the SSD I/O system. And they have also said that they will share more about the 'Velocity Architecture' later.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,851
But a nice architecture that is developer friendly isn't suddenly going to flip the script on architectural raw power advantages due to some secret sauce or something, and those that are waiting for that outcome will be disappointed.
Describing a 5.5GB/s SSD with specific I/O optimisations that directly contribute to its efficiency and effectiveness and will be in the console and available to developers from day zero, as "secret sauce" is just terrible.

In the Long run, this is actually a bad thing. This might explain why the PS5 is so underpowered. And has much less power and - potentially, if rumors are true - less features than XSX, like no VRS, VRR, worse ray tracing etc.
and it would also explain why they had to overclock the PS5 so damn much, to close the gap.
In one of my last responses I said that if either of these console were underpowered, it would be a problem. Now we have someone claiming that PS5 is underpowered, when it really isn't. Shocking.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
In the Long run, this is actually a bad thing. This might explain why the PS5 is so underpowered. And has much less power and - potentially, if rumors are true - less features than XSX, like no VRS, VRR, worse ray tracing etc.
and it would also explain why they had to overclock the PS5 so damn much, to close the gap.
10.28 teraflops isn't underpowered for next generation.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,075
In the Long run, this is actually a bad thing. This might explain why the PS5 is so underpowered. And has much less power and - potentially, if rumors are true - less features than XSX, like no VRS, VRR, worse ray tracing etc.
and it would also explain why they had to overclock the PS5 so damn much, to close the gap.
You guys really need to cut the "severely" underpowered stuff. The system is 15% less. That is the smallest gap between systems ever. What an awful post man.
 

John Frost

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,373
Canada
In the Long run, this is actually a bad thing. This might explain why the PS5 is so underpowered. And has much less power and - potentially, if rumors are true - less features than XSX, like no VRS, VRR, worse ray tracing etc.
and it would also explain why they had to overclock the PS5 so damn much, to close the gap.
What are you talking about?
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
29,199
That is one of my issues no one person seems willing to come out and say which is better, its vague mentions and comments and people saying others said this. I just want a straight up answer which is the better console that is it.
How about they both are so good....it doesn't matter.
 

bcatwilly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,483
Describing a 5.5GB/s SSD with specific I/O optimisations that directly contribute to its efficiency and effectiveness and will be in the console and available to developers from day zero as "secret sauce" is just terrible.

Clearly the Sony SSD I/O solution is objectively stronger from what we know, and I agree that is not "secret sauce". My reference on that front was to any thought that the rest of the rendering pipeline that involves the CPU and GPU where the Series X is objectively stronger is not suddenly flipped on its head because of that advantage in raw SSD speed.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,075
I never said that the PS5 SSD I/O isn't objectively stronger from what we know right now, as they seem to have really prioritized that even more. But there are comments in this thread talking about Xbox screwing up or not listening as much to devs and such, which is just flat out way off the mark based on their own architectural emphasis and discussion of the SSD I/O system. And they have also said that they will share more about the 'Velocity Architecture' later.
Even with the velocity architecture it doesn't make up for what Sony did with the I/O it is what it is. I don't agree MS messed up or anything at all. But there is a clear difference in priorities that we have no idea as a whole system what impact that has.
 

John Bender

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,058
In the Long run, this is actually a bad thing. This might explain why the PS5 is so underpowered. And has much less power and - potentially, if rumors are true - less features than XSX, like no VRS, VRR, worse ray tracing etc.
and it would also explain why they had to overclock the PS5 so damn much, to close the gap.
lol
 

~Millet~

Member
Jan 21, 2019
1,078
In the Long run, this is actually a bad thing. This might explain why the PS5 is so underpowered. And has much less power and - potentially, if rumors are true - less features than XSX, like no VRS, VRR, worse ray tracing etc.
and it would also explain why they had to overclock the PS5 so damn much, to close the gap.
Oh my...
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,712
Malaysia
Both consoles are under NDAs which is why you don't see devs just openly talking about stuff a lot, it's mostly all through journalist anonymously.

For example, there are still parts of Dualsense that is under NDA, and Mike Bithell had to be very careful about talking about what it can do.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
Even with the velocity architecture it doesn't make up for what Sony did with the I/O it is what it is. I don't agree MS messed up or anything at all. But there is a clear difference in priorities that we have no idea as a whole system what impact that has.
Damn, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. What a concept! LOL
 

Kenzodielocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,871
Cerny seemingly designed a console around what devs wanted the most, an SSD.

Whereas MS went with the more traditional route by having very powerful hardware and a good, but more modest SSD. Iirc the leaks that turned out to be correct for Series X had the SSD at 1GB/s.
 

DieH@rd

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,673
Nobody will deny that Sony went with a faster raw speed SSD, but it seems that people just ignore the fact that the Xbox Series X architecture team called their SSD I/O 'Velocity Architecture' the "soul" of their system and have repeatedly talked about how that was a huge focus for them from the beginning too. They obviously must feel that they accomplish game changing design and other things with lesser raw speed in their architecture, as they sure didn't just crank up the other specs and call it a day on the SSD I/O based on their own words and specs.

It's not just raw speed.

Series X has a hardware decompressor, but it does not have all of the storage capabilities that Cerny has described in his talk. Series X CPU will still be tasked to manage few things that are done automatically by custom modules on PS5.
 

Mung

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,454
In the Long run, this is actually a bad thing. This might explain why the PS5 is so underpowered. And has much less power and - potentially, if rumors are true - less features than XSX, like no VRS, VRR, worse ray tracing etc.
and it would also explain why they had to overclock the PS5 so damn much, to close the gap.

A small gap of about 17 percent with your teraflops and a huge gap of 200% with ssd is underpowered now?
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,075
Both consoles are under NDAs which is why you don't see devs just openly talking about stuff a lot, it's mostly all through journalist anonymously.

For example, there are still parts of Dualsense that is under NDA, and Mike Bithell had to be very careful about talking about what it can do.
And absence of praise for the XSX doesn't mean it's bad or anything either. For all we know more people just have better info with PS devs vs XSX devs or NDAs are slightly different. And like jeff said people got it earlier and are happy with it so far. It's great news to say if the PS5 people are happy with it should bode well for the XSX too. We are in for a great generation.
 

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
2,644
People are overestimating how much of a difference a 20% GPU advantage can do. Even 1600p sounds a tiny bit generous.

It is, I was playing devils advocate. People seem to think a <20% GPU advantage is going to provide huge resolution advantages for the Series X and it really isn't.

Which begs the question, if XSX is rendering at <1600p when putting out games with next gen visuals like the UE5 demo then what resolution is Lockhart going to hit running them?
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,427
It is, I was playing devils advocate. People seem to think a <20% GPU advantage is going to provide huge resolution advantages for the Series X and it really isn't.

Which begs the question, if XSX is rendering at <1600p when putting out games with next gen visuals like the UE5 demo then what resolution is Lockhart going to hit running them?


800p I guess ?
 

ClamBuster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,111
Ipswich, England
ok, it's now time... i've had enough

who the fuck is jeff grubb? and why is he treated like an oracle???

i'd never heard his name 10 days ago and now he's single handedly decided the next 7 years of the console landscape???
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,075
Damn, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. What a concept! LOL
What a thought. Lmao. so people speculating power/ etc have no clue what they are talking about anyone that just clearly says one it's better than the other really have no idea what they are talking about. All we have is clues to certain parts of the architecture of the systems have certain advantages and all signs point to SSDs Overall being the biggest advancement for consoles this gen on top of way better CPUs. That's all we can say for sure.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,123
In the Long run, this is actually a bad thing. This might explain why the PS5 is so underpowered. And has much less power and - potentially, if rumors are true - less features than XSX, like no VRS, VRR, worse ray tracing etc.
and it would also explain why they had to overclock the PS5 so damn much, to close the gap.
I wanna hear all these rumors! I wonder where they originated from... 🤔
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,819
I don't recall any console manufacturers doing this at all. Unless I'm mistaken Tflops seemed to only be about PC gaming only. Any evidence of this anywhere?

Right I don't ever recall any console manufacturers ever doing this, resolutions yes but that's about it. Not even bragging about frame rates.

Console manufacturers definitely made 'flops' a big part of their technical marketing. Polys/sec was the simplistic metric at one point, then Sony pushed flops a bit with PS2, and a lot with PS3.

However I would say beyond what the platform holders were telling people, the picture being telegraphed to consumers through dev commentary etc. was already becoming more complicated from the 360/PS3 onward. If they weren't previously, people became more aware of development ease and memory as things that were important to end results. Much was made of the split memory in PS3 vs unified in 360. Which is why, when you spring forward to the PS4, Cerny wasn't simply highlighting the GPU tflops figure above all else. It was one part of a bigger picture presented. Much was also made of the 8GB of gddr5 in particular, and the hard disk in every box - memory management things. In PS4/One comparisons, flops became a vaguely proportional metric for what people were seeing in real games, the difference was relatively large and it seemed to make sense it was they key to the difference people were seeing - and it was a big part of it - but hidden in that was just how much the memory differences between the two were hurting performance too, especially in the earlier games.

And that's kind of how it's often been - often the system with the better GPU has also had a better memory hierarchy (360, PS4). So often in those situations, maybe it was easier for some observers to just bundle all that up and credit it to the flops or more powerful GPU difference only - it seemed a reasonable representation of the difference in general. But in deeper technical discourse, memory's been a big part of that conversation for at least 2 gens now, so I think it'd be wrong to say that flops were the only issue anyone was ever talking about in technical discourse between consoles previously. The reason memory/data might seem like a 'bigger' topic now is that unlike the previous two gens, we have one machine with the better GPU, and one machine perhaps with the better data setup. So the complexity of that can't be hidden behind one number that's apparently responsible for all the difference between the two systems. That number will easily explain some differences (e.g. res), but it can't necessarily serve as the more general simplification that it did in prior gens, with systems that had both a better gpu and a better memory setup.
 
Last edited:

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
2,644
In the Long run, this is actually a bad thing. This might explain why the PS5 is so underpowered. And has much less power and - potentially, if rumors are true - less features than XSX, like no VRS, VRR, worse ray tracing etc.
and it would also explain why they had to overclock the PS5 so damn much, to close the gap.

Is this a parody post?

Because if not...

giphy.gif
 

HeWhoWalks

Member
Jan 17, 2018
2,522
In the Long run, this is actually a bad thing. This might explain why the PS5 is so underpowered. And has much less power and - potentially, if rumors are true - less features than XSX, like no VRS, VRR, worse ray tracing etc.
and it would also explain why they had to overclock the PS5 so damn much, to close the gap.

It's posts like these that really turn these discussions into 'wars'. Misinformed and inflammatory, all in one. Because I'd rather educate than intimidate, however, if you know anything about the 2080 Ti and TITAN RTX, I'm curious. Is the latter much more powerful than the former? If you have an answer, we can proceed to Phase 2.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
What a thought. Lmao. so people speculating power/ etc have no clue what they are talking about anyone that just clearly says one it's better than the other really have no idea what they are talking about. All we have is clues to certain parts of the architecture of the systems have certain advantages and all signs point to SSDs Overall being the biggest advancement for consoles this gen on top of way better CPUs. That's all we can say for sure.
Plus at the end of the day, it doesn't mean anything to me as a consumer. Tangible results that I can see and experience will be what matters. The differences between the two consoles won't matter unless we can see and experience a discernible difference between the two.
 

SgtCobra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,871
ok, it's now time... i've had enough

who the fuck is jeff grubb? and why is he treated like an oracle???

i'd never heard his name 10 days ago and now he's single handedly decided the next 7 years of the console landscape???
You had enough of what? Reports from devs praising Sony's thing? Lol
A simple Google search would've answered a big part of your question. Jeff Grubb is a gaming journalist for Venturebeat. He's notably known for his Nintendo related reporting, he has ties to the industry.
You're not obliged to believe what he says but people have their reasons to do so thanks to his track record. For example, he was the first one to come forward with the 4 June PS5 reveal.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,075
It's posts like these that really turn these discussions into 'wars'. Misinformed and inflammatory, all in one. Because I'd rather educate that intimidate, however, if you know anything about the 2080 Ti and TITAN RTX, I'm curious. Is the latter much more powerful than the former? If you have an answer, we can proceed to Phase 2.
It's like a scud missile in the console wars.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,075
Console manufacturers definitely made 'flops' a big part of their technical marketing. Polys/sec was the simplistic metric at one point, then Sony pushed flops a bit with PS2, and a lot with PS3.

However I would say beyond what the platform holders were telling people, the picture being telegraphed to consumers through dev commentary etc. was already becoming more complicated from the 360/PS3 onward. If they weren't previously, people became more aware of development ease and memory as things that were important to end results. Much was made of the split memory in PS3 vs unified in 360. Which is why, when you spring forward to the PS4, Cerny wasn't simply highlighting the GPU tflops figure above all else. It was one part of a bigger picture presented. Much was also made of the 8GB of gddr5 in particular, and the hard disk in every box - memory management things. In PS4/One comparisons, flops became a vaguely proportional metric for what people were seeing in real games, the difference was relatively large and it seemed to make sense it was they key to the difference people were seeing - and it was a big part of it - but hidden in that was just how much the memory differences between the two were hurting performance too, especially in the earlier games.

And that's kind of how it's often been - often the system with the better GPU has also had a better memory hierarchy (360, PS4). So often in those situations, maybe it was easier for some observers to just bundle all that up and credit it to the flops or more powerful GPU difference only - it seemed a reasonable representation of the difference in general. But in deeper technical discourse, memory's been a big part of that conversation for at least 2 gens now, so I think it'd be wrong to say that flops were the only issue anyone was ever talking about in technical discourse between consoles previously. The reason memory/data might seem like a 'bigger' topic now is that unlike the previous two gens, we have one machine with the better GPU, and one machine perhaps with the better data setup. So the complexity of that can't be hidden behind one number that's apparently responsible for all the difference between the two systems. That number will easily explain some differences (e.g. res), but it can't necessarily serve as the more general simplification that it did in prior gens, with systems that had both a better gpu and a better memory setup.
This makes sense to me. I do remember some things back when you mentioned the PS3 era and it also makes sense more about memory performance etc. and today it's really more about the whole architecture and how it all works as a cohesive unit vs a single number. It's like when people run benchmarks on phones, some may be higher than others but real world Performance you see a different story.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,075
Plus at the end of the day, it doesn't mean anything to me as a consumer. Tangible results that I can see and experience will be what matters. The differences between the two consoles won't matter unless we can see and experience a discernible difference between the two.
Yup,End of the day it's still going to boil down to ONE THING. The game outputs.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,211
The people clutching pearls about the "sex" acronym are far more cringe inducing than the acronym itself.
 

ClamBuster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,111
Ipswich, England
You had enough of what? Reports from devs praising Sony's thing? Lol
A simple Google search would've answered a big part of your question. Jeff Grubb is a gaming journalist for Venturebeat. He's notably known for his Nintendo related "leaks" and reporting, he has ties to the industry and has peoven himself to be a trustworthy person.
You're not obliged to believe what he says but people have their reasons to do so thanks to his track record. For example, he was the first one to come forward with the 4 June PS5 reveal.

"reports from devs praising sonys thing"

and then the best bit

"lol"

like i could even remotely care about your silly juvenile consoles wars, mate

after your nonsensical pathetic accusation, your information was of great help, so a personal thank you to you
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,934
Plus at the end of the day, it doesn't mean anything to me as a consumer. Tangible results that I can see and experience will be what matters. The differences between the two consoles won't matter unless we can see and experience a discernible difference between the two.
Which is why I think Sony put more into DualSense and having the SSD bring other benefits (UI features and speed) and the Tempest work. I think those things will mean more to the overall experience.
 

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
7,393
Series X: SeX.

It's fun, harmless and way better than XSX. You're trying to pick a fight that doesn't exist. SeX sells.
Fun....are you 10?
Imagine saying this out loud in front of real human beings.

PS4 no problem, XB1 no problem.....Im going to pick up my sex?....even as an initialism its stupid.
Call me the no fun allowed police but SEX is a terrible shorthand for Series X when XSX does the job better and doesnt make me feel like im tryning really hard to get people to like me by cracking the same shitty joke until someone of my ilk laughs at it.
Sex as shorthand for the Series X isnt fun or funny.


Hahahaha.
I left the door wide open didnt i.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,851
ok, it's now time... i've had enough

who the fuck is jeff grubb? and why is he treated like an oracle???

i'd never heard his name 10 days ago and now he's single handedly decided the next 7 years of the console landscape???
Jeff Grubb is a reliable journalist with lots of industry sources, some of which are saying positive things about the PS5 and that lines up with what an other reliable journalist with lots of industry sources has already said about the PS5 back in March. Why would these responses cause you to have had enough? I don't understand how you could possibly be mad about this "revelation". Point is, Cerny has engineered a console design with a larger amount of its budget spent on where gaming could be going rather than relying on something more traditional, and developers are responding with glee.
 

T0kenAussie

Member
Jan 15, 2020
5,126
Probably NDA's, if you remember right before The Game Awards all of the information we heard tidbits about were PS5 and the rumors were all about how far behind Sony Microsoft were. TGA's came though and they revealed the whole console design of Series X and showed a game in development. So developers may have felt that way because Microsoft were probably prioritizing dev-kits to inhouse studios first and foremost, as well to keep leaks to a minimum. I do believe at that time developers were being told to target XboxOne X specs or something like that, which really made it seem not that impressive...
Also with 15 first party studios to test their kits early on how much did third party input did MS realistically need? They have a dev team for nearly every genre bar JRPGs and fighting games I think (but even then there's rumblings about KI)
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,211
Fun....are you 10?
Imagine saying this out loud in front of real human beings.

PS4 no problem, XB1 no problem.....Im going to pick up my sex?....even as an initialism its stupid.
Call me the no fun allowed police but SEX is a terrible shorthand for Series X when XSX does the job better and doesnt make me feel like im tryning really hard to get people to like me by cracking the same shitty joke until someone of my ilk laughs at it.
Sex as shorthand for the Series X isnt fun or funny.
Some of you really do feel this too much...