Halo |OT| She's Gone, Sir

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,129
It's only a matter of scale.

Kidnapping children and covertly murdering people, bringing extralegal justice to save humanity was justifiable to younger Halsey.

Killing a few people to save the galaxy is justifiable to Cortana.

The Gravemind called it years ago—Cortana's big weakness is her desire for knowledge, and the only thing that kept her from pursuing drastic measures was her actual ability to effect them. Come Halo 5, those limits are removed, and she's coming off having been treated like crap by the organization she was built to serve (and whose goals of control likewise match hers) save Master Chief.
It's not just a matter of scale.

Halsey decided that she needed child soldiers in order to quickly end the war. She kidnapped them because, obviously no one would consent to this. And some died because it was a dangerous operation. This is terrible, Halsey's a piece of shit, we all agree.

Cortana decided that she needed Guardians to quickly stamp out aggression between warring species. OK She extracted these Guardians via surprise attacks without evacuating population centers because.... She's like Halsey? Why did she execute in this way? It doesn't make any sense.
 

op_ivy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,765
Logic plague, rampant Cortana, rampant fragment of Cortana- all make more sense than this is Cortana being Halsey-esque
I don't know why it can't be both. I like the Halsey angle used to at least partially explain Cortana actions in 5 with the extreme actions taken ALSO due to effects of rampancy/splintering/gravemind.
 

fuchsdh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,027
It's not just a matter of scale.

Halsey decided that she needed child soldiers in order to quickly end the war. She kidnapped them because, obviously no one would consent to this. And some died because it was a dangerous operation. This is terrible, Halsey's a piece of shit, we all agree.

Cortana decided that she needed Guardians to quickly stamp out aggression between warring species. OK She extracted these Guardians via surprise attacks without evacuating population centers because.... She's like Halsey? Why did she execute in this way? It doesn't make any sense.
Because when you’re dealing with a galactic scale a few people dying is frankly not a huge deal. You’re building an empire, not trying to save every ant.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,591
I don't know why it can't be both. I like the Halsey angle used to at least partially explain Cortana actions in 5 with the extreme actions taken ALSO due to effects of rampancy/splintering/gravemind.
Yup.

The move is absolutely Halsey-esque. The extent of how terrible Cortana's actions could also be furthered by the rampancy etc.

It's not just a matter of scale.

Halsey decided that she needed child soldiers in order to quickly end the war. She kidnapped them because, obviously no one would consent to this. And some died because it was a dangerous operation. This is terrible, Halsey's a piece of shit, we all agree.

Cortana decided that she needed Guardians to quickly stamp out aggression between warring species. OK She extracted these Guardians via surprise attacks without evacuating population centers because.... She's like Halsey? Why did she execute in this way? It doesn't make any sense.
Halsey traded the lives of some children to try and end a single war more quickly.

Cortana traded the lives of a few cities to stop all wars in the entire galaxy.

That's really not that different. The means might not be exactly the same but the aims and the motivations are identical. The only real difference, as discussed before, is scale.
 
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Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,129
I don't know why it can't be both. I like the Halsey angle used to at least partially explain Cortana actions in 5 with the extreme actions taken ALSO due to effects of rampancy/splintering/gravemind.
It CAN be and perhaps should be - but they should have, in game, developed a such a relationship between how the two characters rationalize their actions.

I say it all the time, I'm perfectly OK with the concept of Cortana as a villain. But the execution here was poor. And simply mentioning that "hey Halsey did bad things in the name of Good too" doesn't make it better.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,129
Because when you’re dealing with a galactic scale a few people dying is frankly not a huge deal. You’re building an empire, not trying to save every ant.
If you have the means to build the empire, and also not step on the little guy why wouldn't you? Unless, of course, you're pure evil now. There was no way, at the time, to make the super-soldiers w/o conscription kids. You can't say they same for what Cortana did.

Yup.

The move is absolutely Halsey-esque. The extent of how terrible Cortana's actions could also be furthered by the rampancy etc.



Halsey traded the lives of some children to try and end a single war more quickly.

Cortana traded the lives of a few cities to stop all wars in the entire galaxy.

That's really not that different. The means might not be exactly the same but the aims and the motivations are identical. The only real difference, as discussed before, is scale.
[/QUOTE

No, the difference is in the unwillingness to execute as discretely as possible available. See above. Halsey absolutely thought about minimizing collateral damage. Cortana had immense resources and technological advances and feasible could have used them to Shepard masses away from Guardian sites. She decided to launch massive attacks instead.
 
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op_ivy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,765
It CAN be and perhaps should be - but they should have, in game, developed a such a relationship between how the two characters rationalize their actions.

I say it all the time, I'm perfectly OK with the concept of Cortana as a villain. But the execution here was poor. And simply mentioning that "hey Halsey did bad things in the name of Good too" doesn't make it better.
Agree 100%. I do think (and hope) it can be salvaged well after the fact in infinite.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,591
It CAN be and perhaps should be - but they should have, in game, developed a such a relationship between how the two characters rationalize their actions.

I say it all the time, I'm perfectly OK with the concept of Cortana as a villain. But the execution here was poor. And simply mentioning that "hey Halsey did bad things in the name of Good too" doesn't make it better.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the execution is any good.

As I said before, the problem with Cortana in 5 isn't the character turn itself, it's how it was presented.
If you have the means to build the empire, and also not step on ants why wouldn't you? There was no way, at the time, to make the super-soldiers w/o conscription kids. You can't say they same for what Cortana did...
The Spartan 4 program exists in the universe so that's not true. Also, the necessity of the Spartan 2s is probably debatable.

As for the whole empire thing. If you're going to enslave an entire galaxy then there is inevitably going to be casualties along the way.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,129
I don't think anyone is arguing that the execution is any good.

As I said before, the problem with Cortana in 5 isn't the character turn itself, it's how it was presented.

The Spartan 4 program exists in the universe so that's not true. Also, the necessity of the Spartan 2s is probably debatable.

As for the whole empire thing. If you're going to enslave an entire galaxy then there is inevitably going to be casualties along the way.
See my whole thing is show don't tell. If they don't show the progression from CE Cortana to H5 Cortana as it relates go Halsey's thought processes, they don't get to come in during the 3rd act and say, she did these things because she's Halsey-like.

The Spartan 4 program came decades after the Spartan 2 program and is build on Spartan 2 and 3 research. At that time, Kids needed to be conscripted. Whether or not Spartan 2 was necessary to squash the insurrection with minimal casualties is debatable, but that's not the point. Halsey believed Spartan 2 was the only way, and Spartan 2 required children. It's safe to say that if Halsey could have used willing adult subjects, she would have - that's what Orion project was, and it didn't work as planned. Cortana may have believed Guardians were the only way, but theirs no rationale provided for why she absolutely had to kill people who lived above one.

As for the empire thing, sure people will resist and end up dying. But that reality is different from murdering people who didn't even get a chance to resist/submit. Unlike Halsey/Spartan II Cortana's acquisition of the means to her ends didn't require the deaths of innocents - she chose to do it that way.

What's most troublesome about the notion that Cortana's actions = Halsey's on a small scale is the fact that Cortana not only sees her actions as correct, but she sees them as less monstrous than Halsey's. If Cortana is Halsey-X, then why can't Cortana accept Halsey's rationale? That conversation between Chief and Cortana at the end of H5 was all cringe.

Any way, the problem is in the character development and writing. It's possible to write a villainous Cortana, clearly descendent from Halsey's amorality- but H5 Cortana ain't it.
 
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Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,768
H4 Cortana was largely handled well. She was just Halo 1-3 cortana, but showing some early rampancy signs.

The fucking ending was stupid as hell. So was physical cortana.

The issue with H5 is it was completely unclear "who" this cortana was.

I also hate how Spartan Ops set up the Janus Key (shows all forerunner tech in the galaxy) and it was largely left behind. That entire concept just screams future games and cool shit but oh well.
 

Ryouji Gunblade

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
3,575
California
H4 Cortana was largely handled well. She was just Halo 1-3 cortana, but showing some early rampancy signs.

The fucking ending was stupid as hell. So was physical cortana.

The issue with H5 is it was completely unclear "who" this cortana was.

I also hate how Spartan Ops set up the Janus Key (shows all forerunner tech in the galaxy) and it was largely left behind. That entire concept just screams future games and cool shit but oh well.
Or setting up a boss fight facing down Jul at all. Crimson wasn't the only fireteam either.
 

Samurai G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,998
Denver, CO
H4 Cortana was largely handled well. She was just Halo 1-3 cortana, but showing some early rampancy signs.

The fucking ending was stupid as hell. So was physical cortana.

The issue with H5 is it was completely unclear "who" this cortana was.

I also hate how Spartan Ops set up the Janus Key (shows all forerunner tech in the galaxy) and it was largely left behind. That entire concept just screams future games and cool shit but oh well.
spartan ops turned from something cool to something horribly wrong.
still salty about the sphere being thrown into the sun
didnt that 'artifact' get lost with the destruction too? that tool that turned humans into promethians?? i forgot it all now i think about it
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,768
spartan ops turned from something cool to something horribly wrong.
still salty about the sphere being thrown into the sun
didnt that 'artifact' get lost with the destruction too? that tool that turned humans into promethians?? i forgot it all now i think about it
Halo 4 largely had interesting over arching concepts but I honestly hated their execution.

I think space faring ancient humanity and space magic librarian were my least favorite.

After that it was just how they handled the story.
1. Fuck the covenant for coming back immediatley and largely unchanged.
2. Fuck the UNSC for coming to the rescue immediatley with a super ship and new spartans
3. Fuck how they handled everyones reactions to meeting up. Chief/Cortana don't acknowledge there are new spartans. The crew largely doesn't care they found earths greatest hero, presumed dead, alive.
 

Ryouji Gunblade

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
3,575
California
Halo 4 largely had interesting over arching concepts but I honestly hated their execution.

I think space faring ancient humanity and space magic librarian were my least favorite.

After that it was just how they handled the story.
1. Fuck the covenant for coming back immediatley and largely unchanged.
2. Fuck the UNSC for coming to the rescue immediatley with a super ship and new spartans
3. Fuck how they handled everyones reactions to meeting up. Chief/Cortana don't acknowledge there are new spartans. The crew largely doesn't care they found earths greatest hero, presumed dead, alive.
I hated that the Covenant were an ugly shell of their former prophet-led selves missing brutes and drones and missing the Revenant and Spectre. The Storm Rifle was no replacement for the Repeater or Plasma Rifle. Was the Lich better than or even equal to the Scarab? I don't think so.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,043
I honestly don't get this argument. H5 Cortana is changed, but not in a way that's like... Totally alien to her character or origins. It's not like she's a cackling puppy stomping lunatic. She made the decision that humanity had to be saved from itself and she had the means to do so, so she did. It's a very Halsey-esque ends justify the means choice to make, and since she's literally grown from the woman's brain... Yeah.

This obsession some of the fandom has with trying to fix fic Cortana bugs me, but since I guess 343 decided to go with it, I already lost this argument. Ah well.
The fragmentation theory could work if they gathered around the authoritarian tendencies we all possess when reforming after entering the Domain; we all deep down think we know what's best for the word, and I don't think Halsey/Cortana are excused from that basic aspect of the human psyche. Fragments that may have resisted the goals of this authoritarian/totalitarian project that involves the deaths of millions of innocents for the greater good may have been detained an preserved on Instillation 07, which Chief could potentially find.

I'm not exactly sure if this is the best way to go, but it sure beats the direction they were planning on taking Cortana.
 

Dan8589

Banned
May 30, 2019
320
Perhaps you feel this way because you prefer H5 and your personal preference makes it tough to check your bias.

You like Halo 5, but would you be happy if rather getting an improvement on Halo5's formula (better graphics, QOL improvements, New weapons, New maps, New enemies and new, etc stories), you were told to just be happy with playing Halo5 for the next 12 years? Most likely not.

Also, who says the same people will be playing? There's millions of gamers who've never played a classic Halo, a no one has played a new Halo game built upon classic fundamentals - because such a game doesn't exist. How can you assume new people wouldn't be into it?

Finally, you've got to drop the idea that wanting a game built in the vein of a classic Halo, means that people want "basically the same gameplay" or a "regression". What they want is a game that innovates within the principles established in the classic titles. Just because later Halo's implemented "new" things, doesn't mean that these new things amount to "progress". So removing them doesn't necessarily amount to "regression".
Id really like Infinite to have a MP based on H2A with sprint, or at least a gametype with the option. Could never really get into 4 or 5.
 

Samurai G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,998
Denver, CO
Infinite is going to be so tricky ....

We have so many requests on what to tweak, but will they?

Magnetism with aiming and redicale
movement like sprint or not to sprint
abilities and to know that ground pound is your daddy
map size / type so we can have uber map control like old halos
armor customization so we dont look like a deep sea diver lookin for booty
emotes with the ability to toggle on or off
rpg-lite requests for open world single player end game longevity?
req system update with less fodder/filler like the same armor with a stripe to be considered rare vs normal.
more use of vehicles in maps - especially a return of the elephant so i can run over you and laugh like a maniac
tweaks in weapon balance so the BR isn't crap and the magnum has a different role, but is still important.
will they start to use projectile more vs hitbox in infinite?
Spartan companies getting an improvement with how it can work in-game and be a real social hub?
is cortana going to real life jutsu your ass with her infinite knowledge?
will promethians be less annoying than in halo 5?
wil the warden come back like will smith and say "na na na na na na, get jiggy wit it" and judo chop you ??
will the grunts be the new overloads of all of the covenant?
will there be a uber boss called the gruntopolis. where a bunch of mecha grunts combine into one big one and you have to climb it and battle enemies on the way to the weak point?
will the flamethrower be brought back so i can make you dance?
can i haz bbq with 343i? or am i only allowed to ask for pizza?
will i have to walk around a small town and press X wheni reach a person in order to complete a level?
will i be able to relive a stealth/sniping level so i can infiltrate a ship and gather important intel!?

I know i a missing a bunch, but this seems to be what i remember this morning.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,768
With Ninja streaming on mixer now... does anyone have the vid where he shits on the suddoth twins?
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,760
Because when you’re dealing with a galactic scale a few people dying is frankly not a huge deal. You’re building an empire, not trying to save every ant.
There's more than one kind of right. The right which means "this is the correct way to achieve my goals" and the right which means "this is morally coherent."
 

fuchsdh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,027
There's more than one kind of right. The right which means "this is the correct way to achieve my goals" and the right which means "this is morally coherent."
Of course. But generally speaking history is filled with deeds we laud now that required a lot of suffering at the time, we just don’t know the people who suffered. Cortana can easily see herself and the created as the people who make the hard decisions and will be on the right side of history the same way the UNSC does. Doesn’t mean it’s not morally suspect to reprehensible, but the Halo universe doesn’t really operate that way generally.
 

VeePs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,124
Halo 2 maps for life, not just symmetrical ones either.

You know what just fucking Halo 2 for life. Best Halo for me, apart from the rampant modding, cheating, bridging...oh wait. Even despite all that it's still Halo 2 all day. Clan BTB objective was the fucking best shit Halo ever had. 4v4 objective maps and just flag and bomb all the time was the fucking best shit Halo ever had.

I'll stop typing before it gets annoying.

EDIT: MCC has far too much Halo 3 and no population searching Halo 2. Shame.
BTB late night has so much more Halo 3 searches than Halo 2.

Halo 2 was amazing tho. MCC has made it even better. No cheaters, lag, etc. Tho... fuck SMG starts always. That's still around sometimes.
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,760
just because certain characters made these choices and reached a good result doesnt mean its necessarily endorsed as the only possible path or the only good result. halo hasn't always grappled with these issues in the greatest detail, but even in the bungie trilogy i think its fair to say its never been an uncritical black and white narrative.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,591
People complain about Halo 5's selection of maps but I'm playing the Halo 3 Team Slayer playlist and I've had foundry, isolation and ghost town so far.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,768
343’s rocks are great, they just need more types.

Also casting news for the series: https://comicbook.com/gaming/2019/08/02/halo-tv-series-showtime-cast-bokeem-woodbine/
343's rocks are trash. Red Dead Redemption, Battlefront... no those are some good rocks.

343 makes a pretty rock and places it in stupid places. Bungle does this in Destiny a lot.

Though I suppose you can make a case that forerunners can place rocks anywhere in their environments so they don't often have to make sense.
 

Woorloog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,976
I thought that the Halo show is set during the human-Covie war (ie well before the games), and that it is an adaptation universe, not part of mainline Haloverse.
 

GringoSuave89

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,306
ABQ, NM
I thought that the Halo show is set during the human-Covie war (ie well before the games), and that it is an adaptation universe, not part of mainline Haloverse.
Stinkles in the thread for the news said they would be talking more about its place in canon "soon" (I smell a canon fodder), and previously showrunners said they would stick to the canon as close as possible, but would play a bit looser on things like age, race, and gender depending on having the right actor/actress for the job.