[Hot Take] Dragon Ball would have been a better story if It Concluded with the Frieza arc
- Thread starter jman1954goat
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Its not just the characters that were suffering.
The whole worldbuilding was thrown out of the window for the same canyons over and over again.
I mean in the Kid arc you have so much throwbacks to Journey to the West and so much different areas. You had the chinese like mountain area, you had a glimpse in how the world with those capsules look like. The ox king village. The desert, the army base in the snow, Muten Roshis tropical island, the tournament area, Babas place. The training island. The forest and that high tower thing.
And then in DBZ you mostly have the same locations or same looking ones over and over and over again.
The whole worldbuilding was thrown out of the window for the same canyons over and over again.
I mean in the Kid arc you have so much throwbacks to Journey to the West and so much different areas. You had the chinese like mountain area, you had a glimpse in how the world with those capsules look like. The ox king village. The desert, the army base in the snow, Muten Roshis tropical island, the tournament area, Babas place. The training island. The forest and that high tower thing.
And then in DBZ you mostly have the same locations or same looking ones over and over and over again.
´This is a pretty common opinion but even a more fitting one would be the Piccolo arc. Everything was wrapped up.
Still glad it continued but that was the "perfect ending" so to speak.
Still glad it continued but that was the "perfect ending" so to speak.
A lot of cool stuff comes out of the Cell Saga... but I also agree, Frieza has the strongest narrative cohesion and the final battle works so well with all the buildup.
Cell Saga is just really messy with the goalposts moving so often.
Cell Saga is just really messy with the goalposts moving so often.
I can definitely see that being the case but for me the Cell saga fits the bill more. There are parts of Buu I like but it starts to feel a bit "Did the show really need this?" at a point. Though for me a large reason for that comes from Buu being a much less interesting villain than the saiyans, Frieza, or Cell.
Or if they saved him coming back until say Tournament of power. Perfect reason for him to enter and a long awaited come back.
Agreed, still the worst decision ever to have him job there
I'd go with cell. Gohans reluctant rage is too good. My answer would be Buu if Gohan was allowed to remain top dog or at the very least a contender to be helpful. But its Goku 100% again.
The best part of the Frieza returns movie is when everyone is fighting before Goku shows up.
7/10 too much Goku
The best part of the Frieza returns movie is when everyone is fighting before Goku shows up.
7/10 too much Goku
Watching things helps, especially if you plan on talking about it, you know ?
What a weird take.
Ending with Cell probably would have been the best as it's where everything comes full circle. Goku's greatest enemy from his youth (outside of Piccolo, who is an ally) comes back with their most powerful weapon in history that threatens to wreck the shit out of the entire universe and beyond. Even Goku knows he's no match. And so Gohan, who has been built from the beginning as a coming of age story, finally surpasses his father, goes a level even beyond Super Saiyan, and wrecks Cell's shit, but just BARELY does so.
I mean if it did end there sure, Goku realizes the legend, defeats the villain who destroyed his home planet, scene end baddaboom.
Dragon Ball was never really concerned about major narrative arcs, though, most of it is just Goku going on adventures and stumbling across villains. It's kinda like a superhero comic in that regard, you can just keep adding to it until you get bored like Toriyama did after Buu.
Dragon Ball was never really concerned about major narrative arcs, though, most of it is just Goku going on adventures and stumbling across villains. It's kinda like a superhero comic in that regard, you can just keep adding to it until you get bored like Toriyama did after Buu.
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I agree that Raditz bieng Way weaker than Vegeta and Nappa makes zero since and is bad
Ginyu and crew being stronger than vegeta is fine they were not 20 times stronger just reasonably stronger
The Big difference is Frieza is Built up as the strongest being in the entire universe who blew up a Planet and was Hyped and built up for over 100 chapters and it took a mythical legendary Super sayian to defeat
I would Be ok if Trunks and future characters where slightly stronger than a Planet destroying God like Fireza But the way trunks Insta kills him no problem Completely Broke any investment I had in the series.
Yes powerscale was already becoming a problem in Dragon ball but the system completely broke in that moment.
I think it would've been amazing if it ended with Cell only because my interest waned during Buu, and it plummeted since. But the Cell Games were great. I would've been fine with a send off, leaving Gohan to be the next protector. Too bad that's now how it went. Lol.
Intended Endings Guide - Kanzenshuu
An in-depth look at where the Dragon Ball series was supposedly ending, and dispelling many common fan misconceptions and rumors about its intended ending
www.kanzenshuu.com
Nope. There is nothing special about the Namek Arc's ending. The best cases you have for intended endings are Emperor Pilaf's defeat and, well, the actual ending.
I would have vastly preferred Goku died at the end of the Frieza Saga and the series toned down the rampant power level stuff. Making SSJ the kind of ceiling for power level that then for next 2-3 arcs Gohan and Vegeta chase after would be great rather than making that the new floor like Cell Saga did.
I would have enjoyed they went back to the more adventure-esq storyline of pre-Saiyan DB. Not necessarily lower stakes, just not the extremes we saw at the end with Goku vs Frieza. Then working their way up to Cell Saga and Gohan going SSJ and kind of closing that loop.
Cell Saga as it is is great and could have been a solid ending, but I didn't want the series to end then or with Frieza. But I also was ready for it to move past Goku and focus on Gohan and evolve the story and adventure. DBZ remained entertaining and DBS is entertaining and everything but feels like wasted potential really. Buu Saga was especially a major disappointment that's continued on through Super. There's still lots to enjoy but not the direction I would have preferred.
I would have enjoyed they went back to the more adventure-esq storyline of pre-Saiyan DB. Not necessarily lower stakes, just not the extremes we saw at the end with Goku vs Frieza. Then working their way up to Cell Saga and Gohan going SSJ and kind of closing that loop.
Cell Saga as it is is great and could have been a solid ending, but I didn't want the series to end then or with Frieza. But I also was ready for it to move past Goku and focus on Gohan and evolve the story and adventure. DBZ remained entertaining and DBS is entertaining and everything but feels like wasted potential really. Buu Saga was especially a major disappointment that's continued on through Super. There's still lots to enjoy but not the direction I would have preferred.
Taken alone, I don't think Gohan finally being pushed over the edge by Cell murdering 16 in front of him, resulting him in combining his Super saiyan form + his well defined power under extreme anger, really jumped the shark, at least not any more than Goku getting Super saiyan 1 by also having someone murdered in front of him. The series had been very clear that Gohan was capable of ridiculous power levels right from the start of Z, he just never really had any control over it.
It wasn't even called Super saiyan 2 at that point, that was a thing that came later when the series continued on. When every saiyan got SSJ2 as a baseline, yeah, it kinda went over the shark though.
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Based on the Poll it's at least a Medium Take
I read the Frieza Arc in the Manga
I love Dragonball and love the insane power levels it reaches. I want it to keep going to see how absurd it all gets and I'll still have a huge smile on my face the whole time.
Nah the Cell Arc was the perfect send off. Dragon Ball Z since the beginning up to that point was building Gohan into taking over Goku's mantle. Gohan turning SSJ2 and Goku sacrificing himself was to be the peak.
Hmmm, I mean Frieza saga had a good build up and was the climax/end to what we saw at the start of the Z and Cell kinda is a post script villain but Raditz and King Piccolo also came out of nowhere. But it leaves a lot of loose ends, like no ending what would happen to Vegeta, Gohan, Goku etc. Also Cell ties into an established story arc.
But Cell saga ending felt like a true ending
But Cell saga ending felt like a true ending
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I just finished watching all of it, and I had only seen up to Frieza as a kid.
I enjoyed Cell a lot, and while there were a short list of things I didn't like about Buu, overall I'm glad it exists. Lots of neat stuff there too.
If anything Frieza stands out as needing the most cuts, more than anything else (which may alleviate the "this should have ended here" feelings).
I enjoyed Cell a lot, and while there were a short list of things I didn't like about Buu, overall I'm glad it exists. Lots of neat stuff there too.
If anything Frieza stands out as needing the most cuts, more than anything else (which may alleviate the "this should have ended here" feelings).
I think Cell fits better. It also provides payoff for the hints made Gohan's hidden power up to that point, plus with Goku dying it serves a good end
I wish they would have done that with the Frieza arc, Goku dies and Gohan becomes the legendary super saiyan and defeats Frieza.
Narratively, sure. Culturally, the Cell stuff has a huge impact - people would be too hungry to see a SSJ Vegeta or Gohan.
Cell is my favourite DBZ villain so there goes my vote.
Hell, it's the reason I don't even acknowledge or have any interest in DBZ Super. I barely cared for the Buu saga back then.
Like, I wasn't a big fan of Gohan but never understood him getting so fucking nerfed, becoming Super Saiyaman and somehow try to fix him through the Kaio-Shin unlock bullshit or whatever that was. Plus, Future Trunks is better Trunks, kid one was awful and (I know it's not canon) adult present Trunks in DBGT is even worse.
Hell, it's the reason I don't even acknowledge or have any interest in DBZ Super. I barely cared for the Buu saga back then.
Like, I wasn't a big fan of Gohan but never understood him getting so fucking nerfed, becoming Super Saiyaman and somehow try to fix him through the Kaio-Shin unlock bullshit or whatever that was. Plus, Future Trunks is better Trunks, kid one was awful and (I know it's not canon) adult present Trunks in DBGT is even worse.
For me the hidden power doesn't work unless it's from something special that only he is capable of which is why I wish he became SS and defeated Frieza on Namek.
Having Gohan be the only SS explains his hidden power but with Goku, Vegeta & Trunks all having the ability to go SS his hidden power just doesn't make sense.
Really depends if you see DBZ as the Gohan story or if Goku is still the main protagonist. If Gohan is the real hero of DBZ then Cell is the logical end of the series.
It probably would have kept going if they hadn't done the double whammy of Gotenks sucking and alienating the older fanbase, then Gohan not being to the younger fanbase's liking and alienating them.
There are some numbers out there, but the Gotenks run of the comic presided over a large drop off of readers year over year.
There are some numbers out there, but the Gotenks run of the comic presided over a large drop off of readers year over year.
One hand no, absolutely not, but on the other hand I get it.
Goku's first transformation into a Super Saiyan is possibly the coolest thing ever, but it also inflicted a grievous wound on the stakes of the series: Whenever something bad happens, the hero can just get angry and magically overpower the villain. They don't have to use clever tactics or powerful attacks or herculean effort overpowering their physical limations, they just get a higher number that makes them win.
Goku with the send off sacrifice and passing the torch to Gohan has been the canon ending to DBZ in my head since first seeing it on Toonami.
There is no other moment in the franchise IMO that feels more "finale" worthy. Yes, including Freeza.
There is no other moment in the franchise IMO that feels more "finale" worthy. Yes, including Freeza.
I agree. While I don't know what the original intention was, it at least felt like Radditz -> Saiyans -> Namek -> Freiza was a cohesive story that incrementally raises the stakes and has a satisfying conclusion.
Although the Goku/Gohan bit was nice, the Cell saga feels like a DLC you play after the fact that actively shits on the story and themes set up in the previous arcs.
Although the Goku/Gohan bit was nice, the Cell saga feels like a DLC you play after the fact that actively shits on the story and themes set up in the previous arcs.
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Well I think SSJ2 could have been that hidden power, especially when it was shown that Vegeta and Trunk's new forms both had to make concessions (whether it be speed for power or the reverse) while Gohan's was essentially the "perfected" next SSJ form. It would've also thematically mirrored Cell's different forms as he tried to become Perfect
Dragon Ball is not high art, so arbitrarily cutting it in half to satisfy some misplaced ideal is stupid.